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I hate sexism in all of its forms and the people who do it make me sad and angry at the state of humanity. The obvious aspect of this issue is sexism vs women but the problem is much larger and extends into other subcultures as well.
I like to play as female characters in MMORPGs and I RP a lot. The thing is that my in game gender doesn't translate over into real life. I play the opposite gender for many reasons but that's a whole other topic. When people find out I'm not female in the real world (I don't lie about it but I used to) they treat me differently and in some cases get real pushy about why I play a different gender. In some cases I get hate and people have called me 'confused' and or gay which is extremely far from the truth as I'm married to a woman in the real world and I have a daughter.
What I think is stupid about all of this is that guys out there are being cruel to people who could be essentially good friends but their narrowmindedness essentially tears the community appart in general. Lets just get this out there for everyone who might be confused: Cruelty in any form is bad and wrong. Guys should be happy that girls play games after all gamers don't get out much so good luck meeting a girl, muchless one that tolerates gaming as a hobby, lots of my friends have wives and girlfriends who hate their hobby.
My point is sexism in all it's forms is wrong and evil and defending it is just as bad as doing it.
Originally posted by techknowmama Originally posted by steamtank so it's are own fault we get harrassed ? because we chose to make a female character or a female name? so if I make a male character with a manly name I ll be safe right? .... but wait ....what happens when I need to use voice communication to warn my team mates their geting flanked, or when leading a raid ? wow! just wow!
dont game with people on your team that care if you have a vagina or penis?
just a theory
I think you missed the point?
but thats just a theory to
no its exactly the point.
If I am in a guild with a bunch of teenagers, i expect them to act like teenagers.
I dont join a guild and expect them to change because of who I am.
Since when raiding I tend to enjoy a family friendly atmosphere because I think it promotes the best raid experience I dont join guilds that harbor many e-peen'ers.
If you are in a guild, and they dont respect you, you are in the wrong guild. They dont HAVE to change, you are choosing to associate with people who don't value you.
Im not going to have pity for anyone who subjects themselves to such treatment and then says I am a bad person for not stopping it. This game is their safe place as much as it is yours. MMO's are a beautiful thing, they are so big there is a guild for EVERYONE. but not every guild is for you, nor should it be.
You have ignore functions for any ingame chat, and for something above and beyond the realm of sanity you have report features.
In a video game you allow yourself to be a victim, its not the real world, you can choose who is around you.
With people I like to play games with, I am never bothered about their sexual orientation, political colour, race, belief, age or gender.
Originally posted by Fluxii [mod edit]
I don't understand why people have to perpetuate the problem by starting an 'us vs them' argument. WTF people, were all humans and we all need each other. You need the grbage person so your house won't be filled with trash just as you need the hair dresser/barber to cut your hair so you don't look like a beast. The bottom line is society needs to evolve a bit, we should be lifting each other up rather than tearing each other down. People should end games saying GG (if it wasn't a good game then let your silence speak for you the lack of words can be just as powerful as words but less distructive).
I get it some guys argue that women dissed them at some point but dissing them back only adds to the problem. I say take the high ground and rather than add to the problem help solve it so your kids won't have to deal with this legacy of inter-human hate.
I hate crude, bigoted speech no matter who it is directed at. Most men who exhibit sexist predjudices and behavior towards women are ignorant or have emotional problems that probably exhibit in many other forms of anti-social behavior beyond sexism. We have a word for these people in the gaming community: they are trolls. Most intelligent, fair minded individuals understand the golden rule: Do not feed the trolls!
Why do these discussions tend to get so touchy? Well, part of it has to do with the fact that many such articles are written by people who buy into "victim culture" and are always looking for evidence of their victimization. These people often have a world view that reduces the human race to "people in the same boat as me" and "everyone else out there, who just happen to have as one of their life's missions sinking said boat". This leads to over-generalization, which becomes ironic as steroetypical generalizations are what the self appointed victims are usually all stressed out over.
It's also counterproductive, because the vast majority of people that have been lumped into some broad "victimizing class" are actually nice people who would never want to victimize anyone. When you pre-emprtively attack likely allies out of over-generalized fear, things are just going to go south from there.
IMO, the real issue is anti-social, bigoted and distruptive behavior in the community and how to deal with that small, but vocal minority who embrace their ignorance and lash out at others. This can include the various -"isms", sexism, racism, nationalism, etc..., but these people are often equal opportunity offenders who will attack anyone that attracts their attention in ways they feel are most likely to strike a nerve.
I think the way to address sexism in gaming is to understand that it's very rarely about "men vs. women", but rather "asshat vs. the target of the day". Most gamers can relate when it comes to tales of encounters with the dregs of the community, most of us have stories we can tell of our own encounters with such people. Too often, articles about sexism in gaming not only over-generalize and create a "man vs. woman" dichotomy, but they also invalidate the experiences of others with similar tales to tell, because "it just isn't the same thing".
People are people. Gender is superficial. The mind, spirit and soul transcend the body we happen to have been born into. The broader the pool of those we consider as "Us", the more wide spread our sense of empathy and the healthier our society. "Fellow Human Being" should be the "us" if we wish to be truly civil and just.
It's ok to remind people that sexism does still exist in the community, along with a lot of other negative, anti-social forms of distruptive, disrespecting speech and behavior. The problem is that all too often the discussion devolves into something meant to define, reinforce and justify one's own special little space of self victimization, over generalizing "them" and invalidating other forms of victimization as not being valid in the same way.
Negative response, even if it's from those who bristle over being lumped into a very negative stereotype that is not a fair representation of them as people, just becomes a self fulfilling prophecy of victimization for "speaking out".
We all need to routinely examine our world view, ethics, behaviour and speech to identify and address our biases. Everyone has biases that unfairly pre-judge others based on superficial differences that ignore the fact that we all are human beings. Human beings are complex creatures. We are all a mix of good and bad, but the truly bad are a small minority not exclusive to any superficial divisions you might apply to mankind. Most are mostly good and we can all be better through introspection and effort.
MMOs provide an environment where the gender of the player is irrelavent and often unknown. People can just be people and their representation in the game world can have very little in common with their form in real life. It's also a place where we can report, ignore and forget the words and acts of the dregs who pop up from time to time. Giving them more thought than is needed to report, ignore and forget is just giving them power over you they don't deserve.
MMO communities lend themselves to egalitarianism and divisive, direspecting conduct of any kind should be diffused, disparaged and discouraged. Overt sexism is very rare, in my experience and I also do not believe it's at all a common trait among MMO players.
Maybe we can find a way to address sexism in gaming as just another form of unacceptable behaviour and another tool in the toolbox of trolls? Not ignoring that it occurs, but also not looking at these instances as providing any actual insight on gamers "in general" and with out using them as evidence oft an "us vs. them, men vs. woman" sense of victimization?
To be fair to the author, I think she understands the bigger picture and at least some of her discomfort about writing what she wrote may have been stressing over how to address sexism in gaming with out looking like she was attacking all male gamers or gaming in general. I think she tried to address the issues in as non-inflamitory way as possible, but I think the sense of over generalization and the "us vs. them" message still came through. It's very difficult to write on these subjects. I'm sure just as there will be many interpetations of what she is trying to say, many of which may not be what she was trying to say, there will be some who will read my words an incorrectly interpret what I'm trying to say.
Divisiveness is all about gaining a sense of power and importance by disrupting harmony. We all have to be careful that when we seek to combat acts of divisiveness, we don't create even more division by overgeneralizing and holding swaths of people "guilty by association".
Gaming and gamers are not Sexist by nature or by majority. We should all do what we can to marginalize and eventually eliminate sexist behavior in our gaming communities. It has already been marginalized in most gaming communities. Marginalization requires consensus of the majority to not only recognize certain behaviours as unacceptable, but to actively take a stance against them. Consensus is built through awareness, mutual respect and building on commonality. You can not build consensus with divisive segregation of the community by drawing unfair, overly-generalized lines of distinction.
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Sometimes I regret the fact that video gaming has gone mainstream and has to deal with such scrutiny as video game violence and sexism and in the case of the latest Far Cry the exploitation and portrayal of natives. I just hope the industry doesnt become too politically correct for its own good. My personal opinion is that while I support better and stronger female character portrayal, I dont want to see video gaming become a politicized populist platform for discussion of gender or any other other separating issues because this being the "internetz" and an industry dominated by younger men as a demographic it wont end well.
On the other hand I am all for video games serving as positive inspirational tool through the power of good stories. I have always admired japanese games and tv shows for carrying across and promoting very positive values, like love, family, friendship, respect while still making it palatable (as a most recent example I can give Persona 4 for dealing with individuality)
Originally posted by Magnetia I am fairly certain that some female players know and take advantage of the fact that male players will be nicer to them / give them free stuff / be more willing to help. Just saying we aren't the only criminals.
Correct. I've often accepted gifts from other players but never by revealing my gender (or asking theirs) and it's always repaid with game help or some worthy drop or other. But I've seen it many, many times - and boasted about by girls. Women can be and indeed often are their own worst enemy.
On another point, it's almost impossible to call any game content sexist - it's like saying "books are sexist". It's a fact in some cases - but for as many examples of sexism toward women, you can find the same toward men. Where next? Oppressed Evocii writing articles on racism in gaming?
One commenter also mentioned using gaming as a way of having "man time" away from his female partner. That's fair enough I guess - we all enjoy a little escapism... but the vast majority of men I have become friends with in games are incredibly (in a pleasant way) jealous that my other half and I game together and enjoy it.
I think the vast majority of sexism in gaming exists in the heads of women - and that which doesn't comes from the sort of man whose opinions are worthless to me anyway.
I wanted to stay out of this "hot topic", but I had one question that I wished to ask the columnist:
"What do you propose to do about it?" ie: How can it be dealt with?
[EDIT]I should have read on...
Originally posted by KaylettaJadeThat article was way too long. It basically said 'Sexism sucks, there is no good reason for it, and it makes me mad.' And while I agree with that basic premise, if you're going to write an article about sexism in gaming, you really should make better points and offer solutions, suggestions, and maybe even facts.Where is any pertinent information? Suggestions on how to deal with that kind of behavior, gaming companies policies on harrassment, the correct ways to report it and what kind of documentation you should have, information on state laws concerning online harrassment, the basic psychology behind why it happens, talking points for dealing with someone who doesn't realize how offensive they're being - something more than 'Boo hoo, I'm mad at you mean men'.
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by ScaryMonk Originally posted by mymmo haha. men discussing gender issues...its so funny to behold.
Why, they are one half of the issue?
And look at the discussion above and below my first post (edit: and also below this one). The men that are discussing here are more than half of the issue, most of the guys arguing in this thread are in fact a big part of the issue- without knowing it ofc because they are the just som random nice guys arguing. And its scary to read because its so common. Its so common to read "my wif is in the kitchen, there is no sexism", "Ivent seen anything around me...there is no sexism", "Im angry because someon donset see the world like me, there is no sexism", "I dont like changes....there is no sexism" and so on. Sexism in the gaming community is a fact (according to those in the business and research papers). And them here are arguing whatever if there is something called sexism in the games or that men also have issues (why pointing it out in a thread about womens position)? So sad to see, so sad to see that every freaking time.
Edit: this is a good example of how degrading and sexistic the gaming community is.
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I find this article very biased.
For example, the sentence "And by sexism, I mean a tsunami of bile and loathing aimed at women (not only in gaming) in geek circles across the board, mostly for the crime of Existing While Female."
I wonder why this "tsunami of bile and loathing" was only unleashed late last year when #reasonwhy was running up and down the bytes and not, say, 1999. Or 2005. Or anywhen else. Women existed while female as well back then, if memory serves.
No, that tsunami does have a reason, and it's not as passive, non-agency as that sentence would make it sound. No, it was because women raised a major shitstorm over the perceived sexism in gaming. Jennifer Hepler? Well, what about Jay Wilson? Oh, it's not sexist because he's a man.
Personally, I have NEVER seen a woman treated worse for her being a woman. Not in real life, not in any game. In games specifically, I do not care about your sex. I care about your game. And, yeah, that does mean that sometimes, insults are slung around. It's not pretty. But it's not because you're a woman. It's because some people simply are rude, and the GIFT is reality.
Strangely enough the only people who have ever felt the need to 'distinguish' themselves from a common gamer by mentioning their sex... were women.
No, the tsunami was not raised by some unknown power. It was raised by women - because they think something is sexist just because it is aimed at them.
How we raise a stink over how almost every humanoid enemy is male that the player has to kill? How about the fact that almost all evil characters are men? That men are stereotyped as action heroes and more brawn than brain in almost every instance?
Or maybe I should change the genre and medium. How about I raise a stink over all those "How to train your man like a dog" books?
Seems it's only sexist when men do it. Those creeps!
So, what do we gain in knowledge when someone calls men creeps? After all: If you call someone a redhead, you know something about that person: He or she has red hair. But what is a creep? If you hear someone called a creep, you do not know anything more about them. You only know more about the person who used the term 'creep'. He or she was creeped out by that person.
And the second it is no longer aimed at the behaviour of one single person but generalized it shows something else: Sexism against men: "I don't like what they do, they make me feel uncomfortable, therefore they are creeps".
Let me tell you something: I too am angry. Angry at all those people who desperately try to make an issue out of this perceived sexism against women. To me, it feels like: "Hey, now games are no longer something only for geeks and losers, and we expect them to cater to us!".
You do not create, you just point out what needs to change in your opinion and badger others to do the work. I have said it before and I will say it again: You people, men and women alike, who do not like how the gaming industry works nowadays: Make your own game. Sell it. CREATE instead of just playing the old blame game once again.
You know, I remember a time when women were actively encouraged to do IT classes and jobs in the 1990s. They just didn't want to.
I am so frakking tired of women coming into any male space and claiming it must adhere to their wishes, and crying creep, sexism and whathaveyou if they are not immediately catered to.
That is all. Thank you.
I would like to see some figures. I am sure more women are being herressed then man, but is it really this big? I find that article like these make it seem like when a women get online they are being herressed instantly. Do people really swear more toward women then to man? Or do those people that insult women would also insult men?
The problem in my opinion is not Sexism, but the bullying on the internet that goes around. The troll that can get away with things like that. Hate campaign happen to man, women and companies alike when a mob does not like them. Also about Sarkeeian it seems 7000 people suppored her. How many people really where in the "mob" again her?
I am not denying it might be a problem, but I would love to see more then emotional blogs and presentations that back up the fact that it's focused on women. In all my years of gaming I do not believe I ever met a person against women online or would treat them badly and if they made the sexist joke they would just as well toward the man and often just as sexist. Again not saying because I never withnessed it is not there, but I am simply ignorant regarding this and would love to be informed. It is a problem whatever it's one person or whatever it are 1000 persons. I am just wonding whatever the focus should not be more toward bullying in a whole then sexism.
Originally posted by LordZeik People wonder why we can't find healers as often anymore? Women make great healers. If you mistreat them they will stop playing games altogether. Show a little more respect to them.... On to the real topic though. People are victomized everyday. Regardless of race or gender. Having to make a topic about it won't really "solve" anything. With how the current generation is being brought up I don't expect this problem to go away. It's easy to make a list and have people become appauled by whats on it. However, it's impossible to really fix this problem currently. Unless some real cultivating at the earlier stages is done for children don't expect to see any headway in the coming five to ten years. How many parents actually sit their kids down about gender biased anyways?
Then again you get posts like this. They just play any class like any other gamer out there and they are often just as good as the man out there in those classes. Why would a parent sit there kid down because of gender biased? I simply got raised without the idea there is something to be biased about. No need to sit me down and talk to me about that. There are plenty of women stronger then me, smarter then me and/or more skillfull then me. I have no problem with that wat so ever.
Originally posted by Thebozz Men don't really have a problem with women gaming, creating games, or being geeks. Men have a problem with women invading their men time. Every now and then guys like to be crude and vulgar. They like to belch and talk sports and fart. Men don't like women invading man time. Men like to have activities they can do that their women won't want to participate in. Everytime one of those activities sees more and more women, men react because they fear their women will also join the activity. They fear losing man time.
Why is it so important for you have "man" time? What is it about women that frightens you?
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour Originally posted by Thebozz Men don't really have a problem with women gaming, creating games, or being geeks. Men have a problem with women invading their men time. Every now and then guys like to be crude and vulgar. They like to belch and talk sports and fart. Men don't like women invading man time. Men like to have activities they can do that their women won't want to participate in. Everytime one of those activities sees more and more women, men react because they fear their women will also join the activity. They fear losing man time.
I am afraid I am no man then because none of those thing in his list appeal to me...not even a little. Beside that if you like to be crude, vulgar, belch, talk sport and fart you can still do that with a women around. But like many people (regardless of sex) they find it annoying and discusting. Beside talking sports, but I am sure the majority of women know more about sports then I do so they might even make for a better person to be online with then me :P
Originally posted by Sovrath Originally posted by ScaryMonk Originally posted by NorseGod First-world problems in video games. I play MMOs to take a break from social issues and other RL crap. Guess I can go back to doing what I did before I got interested in MMOs. :hiccup:
Dam when I play a game there are a bunch of pixels running around looking like either male or female (or a bit of both if anime) and I have no idea who the player controlling them is or what they look like. Neither do I care unless we get chatting and group up regularly. Yes there are always trolls, and idiots, they go on the ignore list.
What games are people playing where all this sexism and bullying and general un-pc behaviour happens?
As for sexism in the workplace, I hardly think this is the forum for a reasoned debate on the subject.
On the other hand, though there are women who get unwanted attention from dorks who never learned how to speak to people, (...)
That's a huge missconception, they do know how to speak to people, they just choose not to speak to them in the proper manner.
I can't help it. I feel the need to put my 2 cents in here...
Let's face it. When men and women mix, the whole atmosphere changes, wherever that may be. Men and women are different, no matter what people try to say. "Offensive" behavior was rarely an issue until women entered onto the scene. Ever wonder why men created "Boy's Clubs?" Simply so they did not have to check every word out of their mouth before utterance. Face it, most humans, let alone men, lack that ability. I know of few places where women have entered into that the whole atmosphere has not changed because of their presence. Sometimes, that change is for the better, but it is still change.
Trash talking is a huge part of gaming, I am sad to say. Especially in overly competitive epeen games. One can get a psychological edge if a player allows them to. Sure makes it easier to off the other guy if he is standing still weeping.
Some men tell other men they have small genitalia. They call other men fat or ugly or basement virgins. They may call other men pansies or inadequate in lovemaking. They tell other men how good or bad the other player's mothers or sisters are in the sack.
Women enter into this and expect the behavior to somehow magically change, simply because they are present. This will never happen. Assholes abound in these kinds of games.
Now, IRL situations where physical harassment can occur, this is a whole other can of worms.
Originally posted by RednecksithI'll just leave this right here...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQnIJ-ljctk
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Originally posted by AlBQuirky I can't help it. I feel the need to put my 2 cents in here... Let's face it. When men and women mix, the whole atmosphere changes, wherever that may be. Men and women are different, no matter what people try to say. "Offensive" behavior was rarely an issue until women entered onto the scene. Ever wonder why men created "Boy's Clubs?" Simply so they did not have to check every word out of their mouth before utterance. Face it, most humans, let alone men, lack that ability. I know of few places where women have entered into that the whole atmosphere has not changed because of their presence. Sometimes, that change is for the better, but it is still change. Trash talking is a huge part of gaming, I am sad to say. Especially in overly competitive epeen games. One can get a psychological edge if a player allows them to. Sure makes it easier to off the other guy if he is standing still weeping. Some men tell other men they have small genitalia. They call other men fat or ugly or basement virgins. They may call other men pansies or inadequate in lovemaking. They tell other men how good or bad the other player's mothers or sisters are in the sack. Women enter into this and expect the behavior to somehow magically change, simply because they are present. This will never happen. Assholes abound in these kinds of games. Now, IRL situations where physical harassment can occur, this is a whole other can of worms.
Trashtalking is indeed a large problem within competitive gaming, which is why League of Legends introduced the tribunal and honor initiatives.
However, about sexism: the additional problem, as I see it, occurs when a person who is normally well-behaved among men change their attitude to a worse one when a female enters the group, and vice versa,
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour Why is it so important for you have "man" time? What is it about women that frightens you?
You collate 'fear of losing something' and 'fear of someone'.
It is not women that frighten him. It is the loss of a space where you can let your hair down. Where you can relax without having to watch every word and action you do.
because whenever men and women mix, men adjust their behaviour to fit the expectations of women. The atmosphere shifts.
And every now and then a man just wants to let himself go for a few hours. That was the entire principle behind 'male spaces'. Which are apparently a bad thing nowadays. 'Female spaces' on the other hand, are perfectly fine, and always to be respected.
How was that again? It's only sexist if men do it.
Although I don't support the format (whiny, pointless blog) that the author used, I keep seeing people say "I've never seen it" and "It's only women who point out their gender" and such things. So for those who don't grasp why women have an issue with how they're treated in gaming culture, here's a few pictures that should help explain things.
And then there is this one, in which the person is a male playing a female character:
It's not being picked on that's the problem. It's not even the overcompetitve nature and subsequent bashing (especially in consoles) that's the problem. Have a problem with me? Think I suck at whatever I'm doing? Fine. Call me fat, ugly, stupid, say I live in my parents basement, accuse me of being a virgin. That doesn't even come close to bothering me because I've seen guys say it to guys, even to their friends. I've also seen guys accuse each other of fornicating with farm animals, dead bodies, children, and 2 liter soda bottles, and while seriously disturbed, I'm still not offended!
But don't threaten to rape me (1 in 5 women will be raped so that stuff isn't funny), don't threaten to stalk me, don't pick on your friends when they lose to a girl (believe it or not that isn't a freaking compliment to us), don't complain about female raid leaders who take it seriously (we're bitches when we do that, but a guy, well he's just getting it done the right way), don't talk about my vagina - whether I have one or not is not your freaking business, don't ask to see my tits, don't whisper me for nudes, and realize that even if YOU aren't doing any of this, someone else is. I know this because I've had every single one of those things happen to me personally.
I don't sit an whine about how piss poorly I've been treated in games because I'm a female. I don't hide my gender, but I don't carry it like a chip on my shoulder either. I don't carry a grudge against men, or anyone, over that stuff. Instead of getting angry, I just get even. I know how to screen capture, archive messages, save emails, and use the 'red-flag' words that make even that crappy GM who doesn't care take notice. Send messages like the links to me, I will do everything I can to get you banned.
You can sit there and say 'Sexism isn't the problem', but when men are threatening to rape women, cut up their vaginas, or rape then with knives so they can't reproduce, it is misogyny. I totally agree that the entire abusive nature of competitve gaming culture needs to be examined and fixed, but it is rife with sexism as well. I don't tell men to go build me a house or fix my car and I don't appreciate being told I belong in a kitchen making sandwiches.
Originally posted by Mueslinator Originally posted by TwoThreeFour Why is it so important for you have "man" time? What is it about women that frightens you?
Why would a man have to watch every word and action he does? Unless that man is considering a love relationship with said woman (only because of the concept of friend-zoning), I don't see any reason why the man should behave any differently in presence of women. If said woman dislikes you because you act like who you are, then that's her loss.
People. This is a human problem, not a man problem. You flip it where a man tries to break into something that is the "domain" of women, and you will get the same thing.
People are jerks, and when you get them where they are with the dominant group, the ones with the nastiest tendencies will try to satisfy those tendencies. Not to mention the "gaming" community has a lot of people just at the cusp of adulthood. Children, and internet anonymity.
I don't propose to have a solution, but you have the define the problem properly. Men gamers don't need to treat women better. People just need to treat other people better.
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour Why would a man have to watch every word and action he does? Unless that man is considering a love relationship with said woman (only because of the concept of friend-zoning), I don't see any reason why the man should behave any differently in presence of women. If said women dislike you because you act like who you are, then that's her loss.
Because that's just how the dynamic between men and women works for the most part. Women are the ones who are in charge of what is socially acceptable or not.
And your sentiment of "behave as you will, it's her loss". Yeah, try that in real life. See how long you last before you're labelled a creep, a loser, or a pig .