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Originally posted by caetftl
If they are tired of being lumped in, they have the power to go break the mold. Until then they are just whining and :gasp: expecting special consideration without doing anything to merit it.
Go be a female gamer that doesn't ever talk about her sex. Go outperform most of the male gamers and show you are a legitimately skilled gamer. Then once you've acquired some good gaming accolades, tell your story.
This reminds me of Dave Chappelle on Inside the Actor's studio. Where he talks about how people are born with priveleges they may not even realize they have... female gamers are like this often, do they get a little extra benefit of the doubt on everything? Yea... maybe they got that guild invite cause they were a girl, maybe joeblow helped tank their 5man to help them gear up, because they were a girl. Most of them are naive or delusional and just tell themselves, "oh we are just being friendly that's how normal people act". But we both know guys go outta their way to help the ladies, much moreso than they do for guy pals on average.
It isn't backwards thinking, it is actually progressive to understand that all things are not exactly equal and that being liberal for the sake of being liberal does nothing. Better to be objective and accept the facts for what they are, no matter how pretty or ugly they may be. Show me top progression guilds with a female that is their top dpser, best tank, or best healer. Show me a female LoL player that got to 2400 elo on her own without having to play support to some high elo male that carried her. I want to see women prove they are badass gamers, they just have yet to do so, and the ones that have come close to those high accolades, all paint a bad picture because those are generally the ones that whored themselves out extra well to get carried that far.
I don't neccesarily disagree but I also believe that one doesn't t have to sit around and be a lump and say "oh well, I guess that's just how the cookie crumbles" throw up your hands with a gooffy grin and cue in stupid sitcom music. Sure there are differneces and sure there are inequalities but the gist is that we as a society should be working on treating each other better if not just staying out of each other's hair.
And as I've said, maybe most women who have ability are using their time in activities that are more real and rewarding to them than video games. Or maybe they just don't have the same drive or value different experiences. However, you are lumping in all women when I don't really believe all gamer women are "complaining". Though just because someone, woman or no, complains about harrassment doens't mean that they aren't experiencing something real. I do think that gamer women, men, and whoever else shouldn't have to deal with crap. In a perfect world they wouldn't but apparenlthy the reality is that the internet, with its anonymity, allows people to show their true crappy selves.
Not discussing and empowering communities to start punishing the offenders is just lazy. Sure no one is going to change a person if they are racist or sexist or "whatever ist" they are but if groups start saying "hey, not cool, not acceptable" then maybe these communities will become a little less poison.
Here we go again... Lets get something straight, shall we? I speak for no one but myself (which should be obvious, but far too many people forget that), but as far as I'm concerned, people are people and gamers are gamers. I really do make the attempt to treat people as *individuals*, not collectives.
That means that i'm NOT Politically Correct (PC) in the least. I judge (yes JUDGE) people on their personal words and actions. Especially if the two do not match up.
Having watched PC (and the rise of its various labels "sexism", "racism", "anti semitism" and my personal favortite "ageism" to name but a few) from its start in the mid to late 60's (yes, I'm that damn old... ^^) I've watched in fascination as it has infiltrated, and spread through out much of the western power system and society.
Anyone familiar with whats known as "Rules for Radicals" could have predicted this course of events.
"Sexism" is simply one aspect of whats known as The Cause in some circles. The current generation of what I call "Crusader Activists" are really the third generation of such types. But unlike the first generation, who fought for equality (which I supported then, and now), the second and especially third generations fight for power (especially political power).
With that power, they seek to change society (and human nature) to conform to their personal dictates.
So, just what is "sexism"? Here are the wiki definitions. Note also that it can apply to *both* sexes (especially since the rise of PC).
One of the problems that some of the third generation are facing is that of burn out, and push back. It takes a real zealot to go through life with a "balanced" attitude... In other words with a chip on BOTH shoulders... ^^ Always being angry, and always being "offended", extracts quite a toll on people (male or female).
The push back aspect is obvious. People will only take being pushed for so long, before they start to push back. In this day and age its better known as blow back. The Cause is not advanced by those who howl "sexism" at the drop of a garter... ^^
Does real sexism exist? Of course it does, and likely always will. But that doesn't mean that its *worst* aspects shouldn't be confronted, and those expressing such shunned, or other wise dealt with. But the petty aspects are just draining and damaging.
Unfortunately zealots aren't known for their target discrimination, and as a consequence end up doing more harm than good. Bottom line, lets treat each other as individual *people*, and at least attempt not to be thoughtlessly rude.
Originally posted by Sovrath Originally posted by ScaryMonk Originally posted by Sovrath Originally posted by ScaryMonk
I take slight objection to the conclusions you seem to be drawing about my character in your response. I am not going to defend myself because frankly the slightly accusatory tone you use is absurd given that you are forming it from a position of complete ignorance about me.
In response: I am playing a computer game, that is all. I run around and shoot gremlins or some such nonsense. What is it that you expect me to be doing other than this to combat an issue I have never even seen occur within my computer game?
ok, great. And I don't know you so you might be a saint. But your, and other, responses are not about "wow, that's terrible that "some" people have to put up with this crap" but more about lashing out in some fashion at the mere mention of it.
yes, you play a computer game and you attack gremlins. Good for you. Me too for that matter. But the same could be said for "hey, I only want to go to the store, pick up my milk and go home. No drama". However, because people are people they bring drama. Some try to minimize and mitigate drama. But I've witnessed both sexual harrassment and just "harassment" in these games AND witnessed people who created drama and then became all "oh my, i'm being harrassed and I never asked for it" when clearly they did.
As a gross side note, I was once in game (lineage 2) and had a female character as an alt. And what happened? Some creep started hitting on me and in a very pathetic and disgusting way. He actually though my character was a female in real life.
Just because you haven't seen this issue doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Is your reaction going to be "I've never seen it so it doesn't exist period" or is your reaction going to be "if that's legitmiate then that's terrible"? That's the point.
My response would be, its a computer game, it is my downtime. If I do not like the community for wahtever reason it is no longer escapism and I quit.
If I see these issues in real life that is an entirely different matter, but I rarely see them in real life; certainly my workplace (its about a 50/50 mix) and the bars I go to afterwards are a little more enlightened than the general portrayal in this article.
Yeah but monk, this is real life.
I know that's difficult for some to accept that logging into a computer game is anything other than escapism but humans are humans in any venue they choose to enter.
My circle of friends as well as my job are all above board and above and beyond as far as treating people well. I don't generally see this crap in my immediate circle. I have seen it in game and I have seen it out of game.
I've also seen people create drama and put themselves into the positon of "being a victim". I think they get off on it or need it to define them. I have seen people, and in this case women, walkking down the street and get harassed because they were chesty. And not even wearing revealing clothing.
So again, I believe the issue is recognizing when it's happenign and is a real problem (whether male or female but it seems that women have their own brand of harrassment that they have to deal with) and of course recognizing those who are all about drama.
It's lovely you want to be a knight in shining armour but essentially this isn't an issue about sexism or any other prejudice it's more about certain people basically not being comfortable within themselves.
Honestly if you get offended by morons on the internet calling you names about something beyond your control then really you have the problem with whatever it is. Whether your black, asian, gay, a woman, have some lifelong condition, (like me), at some point it's my belief you have to come to terms with it and ignore those who would be negative towards you because of it.
People are aresholes online, many of them wind me up, but I never take it personally because they have no clue about me so how can they possibly know what hurts me? If I can I take revenge, I always try to anyway
No matter how many men condem other men for being sexist, or call out those who are offensive towards black people, they'll always be some other dick you bump into who will try and take advantage. The only real way you beat bullies is to not let them have an advantage over you. For that to be you need to come to terms with who you are and who you could be with effort. That way noone, no matter ingame or real life can limit you to a little moronic box.
This looks like a job for....The Riviera Kid!
Originally posted by Omnifish
It's not knight in shining armor. It's more about my belief that people need to leave each other the heck alone.
You might call it "Knight in Shining armor" but I call it living decently and treating others as decently as they deserve and not standing by while people are persectued. This might not be your way or you might not see eye to eye with the way it is enacted, but it is mine and it is the way of other people. Not everyone of course.
As far as getting called names, well, one way is to say "hey, man up nancy boy and just take it". That certainly is a strategy. I'm just not convinced that's the right strategy.
Having said that, the part I highlighted does resonate and is a very good point.
How is there supposed to be a discussion on gender related topics when all of the posts are being deleted and modified by moderators?
I understand people who are acting bullying but I didn't see that here...
Website: http://www.thegameguru.me / YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/users/thetroublmaker
There is sexism. gaming has nothing to do whit it. and its on both sides
Men like pretty sexy woman, females like badboys whit big ...muskles..
both like kittens..
That article was way too long. It basically said 'Sexism sucks, there is no good reason for it, and it makes me mad.' And while I agree with that basic premise, if you're going to write an article about sexism in gaming, you really should make better points and offer solutions, suggestions, and maybe even facts.
Where is any pertinent information? Suggestions on how to deal with that kind of behavior, gaming companies policies on harrassment, the correct ways to report it and what kind of documentation you should have, information on state laws concerning online harrassment, the basic psychology behind why it happens, talking points for dealing with someone who doesn't realize how offensive they're being - something more than 'Boo hoo, I'm mad at you mean men'.
Everybody pisses off everybody, welcome to World 101, get over yourselves and move on. Life is too short to whine about every little thing that bothers you, this is not therapymmorpg
more women gamers please
I didn’t want to come off as “too angry” or, to use phrases commonly slung at women: strident, humorless or shrill. Well, screw that, I am angry. I’m angry at the men who think they have any right to direct and determine what their fellow human beings are allowed to participate in and enjoy. I’m angry at their mob mentality fervor and self-righteous indignation every time a woman dares to express an opinion on a subject they consider their own. Piss on game territory all you like, fellas; it still doesn’t belong exclusively to you.
My anger, however, doesn’t stop there. I’m angry at all of us. I’m angry at otherwise good men who don’t speak up when their petulant brethren get out of hand online or in public.
I’m angry at women who, terrified of not being allowed in “the club”, rush to disassociate themselves from their slandered sistren with cries of, “I’m not offended!” or “I’m not like those other women, I can take it.”
I got about this far and then I bailed. I am not really seeing how somebody else can "direct and determine" what you are allowed to participate in or enjoy. Unless you are angry that some specific group of geeks are not including you in their game. If you enjoy playing something then play it. Nobody can stop you from playing it. But nobody has to welcome you either. It is called Freedom of Association. The US Surpreme Court regarded it as an essential part of the Freedom of Speech and Assembly that we enjoy from the first amendment in NAACP vs Alabama. It is also protected by the European Convention on Human Rights and the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. If some group of guys wants to hang out with only other guys then that is their right AND their loss. You also have the right to steer clear of people you don't like and hang out with people you do like.
So sure, you have the right to express your opinion. But you don't have the right to demand that they react to it the way you want. You don't have the right to insist that they not evaluate your opinion though the lens of a mob mentality or without any kind of indignation. You also don't have the right to expect them to not respond to your opinion with derision or contempt or laughter or indifference.
Further, I really don't care if you are angry at me for, well, not caring if other men hurt your feelings. I am playing my game to play my game, not to worry about whether or not your enjoying yours. I DONT CARE. Now I am not going to go out of my way to may you feel bad if I run into you in an MMO. I enjoy things better being friendly and helping people out and such. But if you are being trolled by some pre-pubescent idiots, deal with it. Use /ignore or report them or cuss at them, I don't care. So don't waste your time trying to shame me for not caring if someone else failed to raise their kids with any descernible social skills.
Also, don't bother trying to shame me for enjoying looking at women who have curvey breasts and butts. I really don't care how that makes you feel either.
All die, so die well.
I'm hoping Lisa Jonte tells about the new and unique perspectives she brings to the columns of mmorpg.com in her next article.
Though perhaps this is a two part series? This first part is obviously the Anger, perhaps the next article has the
Edit: And don't think for a damn minute I'm being sexist. I would say the same thing about an article on such an important topic that was written so poorly, whether the author was a man or a woman.
AsRock Z710 Extreme7+ motherboardIntel i7-6700K Skylake 4.0 GHz processor8 GB DDR4 3600 mhz RAMSamsung 850 Evo 2.5" SSDSamsung 950 Pro M.2 SSDHaf X caseTwo MSI 980 Ti GPUs in SLIThree 30" U3011 monitors at 7680x1600 resolution in SurroundAn additional 27" Dell 4K monitorBasically my gaming rig is made of moneyEl Psy Congroo
Originally posted by Hodo Gaming isnt sexist. The internet just gives more idiots a voice and a mask to hide behind giving them more bravery than they ever would have in real life. Unfortunately this leads to a building of their confidence which in turn leads to more sexual assaults and sexually biased insults. Women are not the only targets of this, race has also come up many times in gaming. How many times have you heard someone called a n****r in a game?
It's not bravery: it's manhood. I believe all games are sexist, they are made for man, women that play this games just have to live
Originally posted by stygianapoth most games have an ignore button.....
Originally posted by Sovrath Originally posted by Omnifish
I wanted to highlight the above in red because realistically people do not treat each other decently, especially online.
I admire your values and I understand your points. I feel that I may not have explained myself in the best possible way so allow me to reiterate.
I do not personally condone bullying or prejudice of any kind. I have been a manager at a large company and have dealt with harassment cases before and seen first hand the effects they can have on a victims self belief and confidence. I've fired the offenders over said issues as well.
Now that gives me a different insight to this issue as you may have. It doesn't mean my opinion is, 'better', then yours, just different.
Taking that onboard I would suggest there is a world of difference between constant harassment 8 hours a day from a coworker you have to deal with, to taking to heart what some obnoxious troll says to you on the internet.
The essential problem as I see it is this, the internet and MMOs is a unique enviroment were no matter how many times you or I say a behaviour is wrong someone will come along, maybe someone young and rebellious maybe someone maladjusted, and stir things up for their own amusement. The internets greatest strength is also a weakness, it's an open forum to all manner of opinion.
In that situation you simply cannot control what is being said or by whom. Therefore you have to armour yourself and your own self worth against crude attacks by people you probably won't ever met again. That is the best you or I can ever do and that was the message I was trying to get across. Noone else will do it for you, noone else will protect you because they'll always be, 'another guy', out to ruin your day.
The, 'knight in shining' armor thing wasn't meant as a jibe but the phrase was maybe inflamatory so apologises there. The thing is I see many people jump in to defend a perceived wronged group and your right to do so and follow your convictions. I just feel that in the case of MMOs it's an unattainable goal and so the individual has to be ready to either defend themselves or show some self belief to not listen to the twonks.
Originally posted by KaylettaJade That article was way too long. It basically said 'Sexism sucks, there is no good reason for it, and it makes me mad.' And while I agree with that basic premise, if you're going to write an article about sexism in gaming, you really should make better points and offer solutions, suggestions, and maybe even facts. Where is any pertinent information? Suggestions on how to deal with that kind of behavior, gaming companies policies on harrassment, the correct ways to report it and what kind of documentation you should have, information on state laws concerning online harrassment, the basic psychology behind why it happens, talking points for dealing with someone who doesn't realize how offensive they're being - something more than 'Boo hoo, I'm mad at you mean men'.
You speak da truth.
What is this crap? I don't give 2-shits what gender you are. Couldn't care less, that you're a woman (more like a girl it seems).
Rage all you want, clearly going for the controversy factor here to get views. GJ MMOPRG, as low as always.
Who is the next author, Stalin?
"My anger, however, doesn’t stop there. I’m angry at all of us. I’m angry at otherwise good men who don’t speak up when their petulant brethren get out of hand online or in public."
In public I have no problem with this and I've done exactly that and worse, but online? what exactly am I supposed to do, declare war on all the anonymous teenage males who act like sexist morons? That segment of the population were acting like idiots before women made up much of the gamer population and they will be acting like idiots a thousand years from now. Their goal is to be offensive pricks, and if using gender works they are gonna use it. The only way to win is is to give no credibility to anything they say.
I think you're confusing stupidity, rudeness and lowlifery with sexism. I have never, ever come across a single sexist in games or online. I do, however, come across loadsa attention seekers, sympathy whores and rude low lifes mascarading as sexists. My philosophy >>>>ignore<<<<<. Sexism is not the issue in gaming. It never has been.
It seems this tpoic is most popular with people who like to be offended by things. Most normal people who aren't hunting for their next bit of drama treat all of this as the same thing....just some person being an asshole to another person.
There really is no deeper meaning behind it all. Some people just suck.
Originally posted by DamonVile It seems this tpoic is most popular with people who like to be offended by things. Most normal people who aren't hunting for their next bit of drama treat all of this as the same thing....just some person being an asshole to another person. There really is no deeper meaning behind it all. Some people just suck.
Truer words were never spoken, period
Posts have been deleted. Don't fall for this illusion.
Playing: 3D chess while while others play checkers.
Censorship is intended to create an illusion that one side of the debate is correct and unopposed. Silence is not consent.
I'll just leave this right here...
I would also like to say that if I wanted some feminazi writer to scream at me about how 'all men are scum', I'd go turn on either the Oxygen network or the Lifetime channel.
Originally posted by troublmaker How is there supposed to be a discussion on gender related topics when all of the posts are being deleted and modified by moderators? I understand people who are acting bullying but I didn't see that here...