@all who want P2P. Can you name some P2P MMOs which released after 2005 that were successful? I honestly can't even think of one. What makes you believe ESO will have a different fate?
I'd be pleased with it being B2P, though naturally I'd prefer cash shops wouldn't accompany the model, though understand the necessity for the publishers and developers to make their end. If it isn't B2P, I'd be willing to accept a subscription based payment, hopefully at ten dollars rather than fifteen, though I also realize that seems unlikely.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
Originally posted by boxsnd @all who want P2P. Can you name some P2P MMOs which released after 2005 that were successful? I honestly can't even think of one. What makes you believe ESO will have a different fate?
We can't because they've all been terrible WoW clones, that's why they're not P2P. There's a reason games like UO, Asheron's Call, DAOC still have players and subscriptions, they weren't shitty themeparks.
I would ask you, how many mmo's in the past few years that have gotten 500k-over 1 Mill to buy them knowing full well they were subscription based, only to have people leave in droves after the first couple months, then the game having to go B2P or F2P. People will pay a subscription for a game they really like, they won't pay it for a game that's not worthy a subscription.
Originally posted by boxsnd @all who want P2P. Can you name some P2P MMOs which released after 2005 that were successful? I honestly can't even think of one. What makes you believe ESO will have a different fate?
Depends on the yard stick you judge them by
If your expecting millions of active users over a long period of time, then no western mmo apart from WoW has been a success and thats including b2p/f2p/freemium, maybe gw2 but theres no way to know as box sales dont tell us much at all
i dont know about what they will do till they do it all i know is this
P2P = more work on core and bugs then shinies, tends to scare away casual players
B2P = noramlly are games that although have alot of work put into them ( sometimes) tend to be forgotten about by the company after words in order to start work on the next big thing and only small crew is left to work on game with more focus on shinies in cash shop instead of core game or bugs. WHY? because they already got your money they want more not to worry about whether or not you pay your sub.
F2P = same as B2P exept little to no real effert is put into the game inital production, and its all about the cash shops with core game and bugs being very low on priorities
rember modern game companies are a bussnes not people who care anymore they only care about the money they make, not the players. their are exeptions but very few
F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.
Originally posted by boxsnd @all who want P2P. Can you name some P2P MMOs which released after 2005 that were successful? I honestly can't even think of one. What makes you believe ESO will have a different fate?
I know one B2P game that ended with no conent, hate gw2 endgame ? wait for more modes,arenas,duels,dungeons, we just release new exansion for next 70dollars... also, dont forget to buy our mega boosts and awesome looking basseball bats and sunglases in our super GEM store !! because our fantasy world rulez ... this is TES, this is serious fantasy world...
i hope TESO will take a stand and go back to P2P i mean come on 15 is average for P2P
you cant tell me thats sets you back when you already own a com that can handle it and are paying for a highspeed internet line.
if you fill you need to get the money somewhere drink one less at the bar cut your own hair instead of barber ( no wait dont do that ) skip eating out one day and cook something at the house. get the cheap gas instead of the good gas, HELL WALK.
my point is everyone gose on and on about F2P is bettter cause they cant aford it, well ya know what i know peopple who say they cant aford the cost of gas but spend a few hundred every weekend on bar hopping. . .. . . . . . there would be more money for things if people would watch their money better
great now im ranting on things that dont have to do with thread
F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.
i hope TESO will take a stand and go back to P2P i mean come on 15 is average for P2P
you cant tell me thats sets you back when you already own a com that can handle it and are paying for a highspeed internet line.
if you fill you need to get the money somewhere drink one less at the bar cut your own hair instead of barber ( no wait dont do that ) skip eating out one day and cook something at the house. get the cheap gas instead of the good gas, HELL WALK.
my point is everyone gose on and on about F2P is bettter cause they cant aford it, well ya know what i know peopple who say they cant aford the cost of gas but spend a few hundred every weekend on bar hopping. . .. . . . . . there would be more money for things if people would watch their money better
great now im ranting on things that dont have to do with thread
Very few people praise F2P because they can't afford a monthly fee.
Most people don't like the idea of time ticking away. Most MMOs ofter at best 3 weeks of content at launch any more, paying to wait for content just doesn't make sense with how repeative games are now a days.
Give me an ala carte model any day. Paying for repeat dungeon raids should be recognized as a mental disorder.
How would boxing gloves and baseball hats fit into TES lore from the cash shop. How could the lore master add in lore about the oh so wonderful cash shop guild in the building next to the fighters guild.
i hope TESO will take a stand and go back to P2P i mean come on 15 is average for P2P
you cant tell me thats sets you back when you already own a com that can handle it and are paying for a highspeed internet line.
if you fill you need to get the money somewhere drink one less at the bar cut your own hair instead of barber ( no wait dont do that ) skip eating out one day and cook something at the house. get the cheap gas instead of the good gas, HELL WALK.
my point is everyone gose on and on about F2P is bettter cause they cant aford it, well ya know what i know peopple who say they cant aford the cost of gas but spend a few hundred every weekend on bar hopping. . .. . . . . . there would be more money for things if people would watch their money better
great now im ranting on things that dont have to do with thread
hey look at that! another that want's to tell everyone how they should use their money. Figures....
Originally posted by boxsnd @all who want P2P. Can you name some P2P MMOs which released after 2005 that were successful? I honestly can't even think of one. What makes you believe ESO will have a different fate?
We can't because they've all been terrible WoW clones, that's why they're not P2P. There's a reason games like UO, Asheron's Call, DAOC still have players and subscriptions, they weren't shitty themeparks.
I would ask you, how many mmo's in the past few years that have gotten 500k-over 1 Mill to buy them knowing full well they were subscription based, only to have people leave in droves after the first couple months, then the game having to go B2P or F2P. People will pay a subscription for a game they really like, they won't pay it for a game that's not worthy a subscription.
well, SWTOR wasn't a WOW clone, TERA isn't a WOW clone, TSW certanly isn't a WOW clone...
Except for SWTOR, those are good games.. But, the market has changed too much at this point, gaming crowd is one of the toughest crowds to please and it get's harder with each day.
We've seen alot of good ideas floping when they were released and we've seen alot less good ideas succeeding... But the main thing is that the competition is now growing bigger and bigger every day, people won't pay for just about anything and that's why all those great games which could've succeed, failed - because of the wrong sub model.
Times changed and I think people are realising the actual value of their money in MMORPGs...
BTW, P2P model after 2005. in NA/EU is RIFT. It's a stable game with decent income if they're managing to keep it alive and add expansions so it's a success in my book. There's alot of them in East with P2P model, but their P2P model is so much different from ours and so much cheaper so I'm not taking it under consideration.
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life." -------------------------------
If you want a quick cash grab, I'd say subscription + box + cash shop (secret world) or introducing some rmah+box fee.
If you want a long term success like wow (which I doubt anyone can reproduce at all), subscription would seem the obvious choice although in this market, you would need an amazing game (one game to rule them all) and a huge marketing budget. However, up till now no recent major AAA MMo's have come out which remained sub (correct me if im wrong though, wasn't sure about rift)
If you want just an ok success, the standard seems to be f2p (See LoL), cashshop (avoiding pay 2 win)
i hope TESO will take a stand and go back to P2P i mean come on 15 is average for P2P
you cant tell me thats sets you back when you already own a com that can handle it and are paying for a highspeed internet line.
if you fill you need to get the money somewhere drink one less at the bar cut your own hair instead of barber ( no wait dont do that ) skip eating out one day and cook something at the house. get the cheap gas instead of the good gas, HELL WALK.
my point is everyone gose on and on about F2P is bettter cause they cant aford it, well ya know what i know peopple who say they cant aford the cost of gas but spend a few hundred every weekend on bar hopping. . .. . . . . . there would be more money for things if people would watch their money better
great now im ranting on things that dont have to do with thread
hey look at that! another that want's to tell everyone how they should use their money. Figures....
im not telling peple how to use their money, ok maybe i am in that rant
but in the end im mainly sick of people complaining about the cost of sub when they throw money at othere things that they get less time out of and pay alot more
F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.
B2P, like Guild Wars, in my opinion. Look at the subscription based mmo games that have followed WoW. Most have turned to F2P, or closed their doors, within 1-2 years max. I really don't think this game will be any different with a subscription model. After a couple months, content becomes boring, and new content doesn't rapidly come out. People start feeling that the game is dull, and they decide to go back to an already well established and content rich WoW. This happens much faster if the game is full of bugs at release.
Then look at Guild Wars 2. Not only did they have a solid launch, but they are still selling tons of copies of the game. If I get bored of Guild Wars 2, I can just take a break for awhile without feeling like my money is being wasted. If I quit a subscription based game, I'm very unlikely to resubscribe, because I can't test the game to see if it's fun again. My money isn't tight, and I'm 28 years old, so that isn't the problem. I just don't like throwing my money towards things that aren't worth it.
Buy to Play with a cosmetic cash shop. One listen to Jack Emmert at the Gen Con 2012 D&D Digital, part 2 here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5QFqtpWO1s&feature=player_detailpage Starts around the 4:40 mark talking of F2P and why certain games fail because of B2P and how they could have been better as a F2P. He makes perfect sense. He also talks how F2P allows gamers who can afford it the luxury of being able to purchase "wants" in the game, he expands upon this in the context of Comic Books. He says: As a Fan I can easily spend $500 a month in comic book paraphernalia but not because he needs to, but because he wants too. If you enjoy the game, there will be avenues for you to spend money. In essence only a very small percentage of player base will use the cash shops but still the company will be profitable.
This is essence is why Cash Shops with cosmetics are the best source of revenue. First you bring in more players (which is a fact) and second you allow fans to buy what they want from a cash shop. The Sparkly Ponies in WoW are a perfect example, IMO WoW would make a ton more money if they went F2P, and institute a cash shop with cosmetics. It’s working wonderfully for GW2 and as long as the game is good enough it will work for ESO. Subs are dying and for good reason, they're dinosaurs.
Plus you need to realize that the vast majority of gamers do not play MMO's because of the stigma of being subscription based, if you want to draw more players in then you need to be F2P or B2P from the ground up? If you start out sub based, you’ve already lost a very high percentage of potential player base because the stigma of going F2P after being subscription based means the game failed, whereas starting off as F2P or B2P is more of a sign of being "with the times".
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Originally posted by Remyi B2P, like Guild Wars, in my opinion. Look at the subscription based mmo games that have followed WoW. Most have turned to F2P, or closed their doors, within 1-2 years max.
Considering there is only like 2 b2p games on the market....What happens when b2p games start going south?
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
Originally posted by Remyi B2P, like Guild Wars, in my opinion. Look at the subscription based mmo games that have followed WoW. Most have turned to F2P, or closed their doors, within 1-2 years max.
Considering there is only like 2 b2p games on the market....What happens when b2p games start going south?
They either improve the game, offer incentive to keep playing, or take their profit/loss and move on. Hell, even the original Guild Wars has a decent player base still. That's the bonus to the model. You can take a break for a month, and jump right back in. Not that you should be playing games in this situation, but you are also able to keep playing if you lose your job for whatever reason. Also, the model provides cheaper server costs for them. Defiance is going with the B2P model as well.
My personal decision is to never play another subscription based MMORPG. I have plenty of stuff on my inactive WoW account, if I want to go that route. I would consider paying a subscription fee for some other form of MMO, like a FPS, if it struck my interest. This is why I really hope they don't head that direction. I really love the lore of The Elder Scrolls, and the game looks really interesting to me.. but I don't need yet another failed subscription based MMORPG that sits on my shelf unused.
Comments
DAoC - Excalibur & Camlann
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
We can't because they've all been terrible WoW clones, that's why they're not P2P. There's a reason games like UO, Asheron's Call, DAOC still have players and subscriptions, they weren't shitty themeparks.
I would ask you, how many mmo's in the past few years that have gotten 500k-over 1 Mill to buy them knowing full well they were subscription based, only to have people leave in droves after the first couple months, then the game having to go B2P or F2P. People will pay a subscription for a game they really like, they won't pay it for a game that's not worthy a subscription.
What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot
Depends on the yard stick you judge them by
If your expecting millions of active users over a long period of time, then no western mmo apart from WoW has been a success and thats including b2p/f2p/freemium, maybe gw2 but theres no way to know as box sales dont tell us much at all
i dont know about what they will do till they do it all i know is this
P2P = more work on core and bugs then shinies, tends to scare away casual players
B2P = noramlly are games that although have alot of work put into them ( sometimes) tend to be forgotten about by the company after words in order to start work on the next big thing and only small crew is left to work on game with more focus on shinies in cash shop instead of core game or bugs. WHY? because they already got your money they want more not to worry about whether or not you pay your sub.
F2P = same as B2P exept little to no real effert is put into the game inital production, and its all about the cash shops with core game and bugs being very low on priorities
rember modern game companies are a bussnes not people who care anymore they only care about the money they make, not the players. their are exeptions but very few
F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to
Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.
I know one B2P game that ended with no conent, hate gw2 endgame ? wait for more modes,arenas,duels,dungeons, we just release new exansion for next 70dollars... also, dont forget to buy our mega boosts and awesome looking basseball bats and sunglases in our super GEM store !! because our fantasy world rulez ... this is TES, this is serious fantasy world...
i hope TESO will take a stand and go back to P2P i mean come on 15 is average for P2P
you cant tell me thats sets you back when you already own a com that can handle it and are paying for a highspeed internet line.
if you fill you need to get the money somewhere drink one less at the bar cut your own hair instead of barber ( no wait dont do that ) skip eating out one day and cook something at the house. get the cheap gas instead of the good gas, HELL WALK.
my point is everyone gose on and on about F2P is bettter cause they cant aford it, well ya know what i know peopple who say they cant aford the cost of gas but spend a few hundred every weekend on bar hopping. . .. . . . . . there would be more money for things if people would watch their money better
great now im ranting on things that dont have to do with thread
F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to
Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.
Very few people praise F2P because they can't afford a monthly fee.
Most people don't like the idea of time ticking away. Most MMOs ofter at best 3 weeks of content at launch any more, paying to wait for content just doesn't make sense with how repeative games are now a days.
Give me an ala carte model any day. Paying for repeat dungeon raids should be recognized as a mental disorder.
a yo ho ho
hey look at that! another that want's to tell everyone how they should use their money. Figures....
well, SWTOR wasn't a WOW clone, TERA isn't a WOW clone, TSW certanly isn't a WOW clone...
Except for SWTOR, those are good games.. But, the market has changed too much at this point, gaming crowd is one of the toughest crowds to please and it get's harder with each day.
We've seen alot of good ideas floping when they were released and we've seen alot less good ideas succeeding... But the main thing is that the competition is now growing bigger and bigger every day, people won't pay for just about anything and that's why all those great games which could've succeed, failed - because of the wrong sub model.
Times changed and I think people are realising the actual value of their money in MMORPGs...
BTW, P2P model after 2005. in NA/EU is RIFT. It's a stable game with decent income if they're managing to keep it alive and add expansions so it's a success in my book. There's alot of them in East with P2P model, but their P2P model is so much different from ours and so much cheaper so I'm not taking it under consideration.
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
-------------------------------
Subscription all the way, especially if it's going to keep the implementation of an item shop out of it. I just hate item shops.
People say they're getting used to them, but it's the exact opposite with me. Somehow they're actually bugging me more and more!
I would like to see a sub based game, but Im thinking there goin the B2P, plus cash shop route.
My 2 cents.
Depends on what your goal is.
If you want a quick cash grab, I'd say subscription + box + cash shop (secret world) or introducing some rmah+box fee.
If you want a long term success like wow (which I doubt anyone can reproduce at all), subscription would seem the obvious choice although in this market, you would need an amazing game (one game to rule them all) and a huge marketing budget. However, up till now no recent major AAA MMo's have come out which remained sub (correct me if im wrong though, wasn't sure about rift)
If you want just an ok success, the standard seems to be f2p (See LoL), cashshop (avoiding pay 2 win)
im not telling peple how to use their money, ok maybe i am in that rant
but in the end im mainly sick of people complaining about the cost of sub when they throw money at othere things that they get less time out of and pay alot more
F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to
Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.
i agree i hate them damn things
F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to
Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.
B2P, like Guild Wars, in my opinion. Look at the subscription based mmo games that have followed WoW. Most have turned to F2P, or closed their doors, within 1-2 years max. I really don't think this game will be any different with a subscription model. After a couple months, content becomes boring, and new content doesn't rapidly come out. People start feeling that the game is dull, and they decide to go back to an already well established and content rich WoW. This happens much faster if the game is full of bugs at release.
Then look at Guild Wars 2. Not only did they have a solid launch, but they are still selling tons of copies of the game. If I get bored of Guild Wars 2, I can just take a break for awhile without feeling like my money is being wasted. If I quit a subscription based game, I'm very unlikely to resubscribe, because I can't test the game to see if it's fun again. My money isn't tight, and I'm 28 years old, so that isn't the problem. I just don't like throwing my money towards things that aren't worth it.
Buy to Play with a cosmetic cash shop. One listen to Jack Emmert at the Gen Con 2012 D&D Digital, part 2 here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5QFqtpWO1s&feature=player_detailpage Starts around the 4:40 mark talking of F2P and why certain games fail because of B2P and how they could have been better as a F2P. He makes perfect sense. He also talks how F2P allows gamers who can afford it the luxury of being able to purchase "wants" in the game, he expands upon this in the context of Comic Books. He says: As a Fan I can easily spend $500 a month in comic book paraphernalia but not because he needs to, but because he wants too. If you enjoy the game, there will be avenues for you to spend money. In essence only a very small percentage of player base will use the cash shops but still the company will be profitable.
This is essence is why Cash Shops with cosmetics are the best source of revenue. First you bring in more players (which is a fact) and second you allow fans to buy what they want from a cash shop. The Sparkly Ponies in WoW are a perfect example, IMO WoW would make a ton more money if they went F2P, and institute a cash shop with cosmetics. It’s working wonderfully for GW2 and as long as the game is good enough it will work for ESO. Subs are dying and for good reason, they're dinosaurs.
Plus you need to realize that the vast majority of gamers do not play MMO's because of the stigma of being subscription based, if you want to draw more players in then you need to be F2P or B2P from the ground up? If you start out sub based, you’ve already lost a very high percentage of potential player base because the stigma of going F2P after being subscription based means the game failed, whereas starting off as F2P or B2P is more of a sign of being "with the times".
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Have to say B2P with a cosmetic only cash shop (mounts, skin etc.)
They can make alot of money with just services like name change, sex change and so on.
Blizzard makes millions just on customer services. like their 25 dollar mounts and 15 dollar companions.
Like it or not all MMOs will have Microtransactions. So I say let me buy the game to show support and pay for the services when i need it..
Just my two cents.
Proud MMORPG.com member since March 2004! Make PvE GREAT Again!
Considering there is only like 2 b2p games on the market....What happens when b2p games start going south?
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
They either improve the game, offer incentive to keep playing, or take their profit/loss and move on. Hell, even the original Guild Wars has a decent player base still. That's the bonus to the model. You can take a break for a month, and jump right back in. Not that you should be playing games in this situation, but you are also able to keep playing if you lose your job for whatever reason. Also, the model provides cheaper server costs for them. Defiance is going with the B2P model as well.
My personal decision is to never play another subscription based MMORPG. I have plenty of stuff on my inactive WoW account, if I want to go that route. I would consider paying a subscription fee for some other form of MMO, like a FPS, if it struck my interest. This is why I really hope they don't head that direction. I really love the lore of The Elder Scrolls, and the game looks really interesting to me.. but I don't need yet another failed subscription based MMORPG that sits on my shelf unused.