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How long will MMOs hide P2W behind the veil of FTP?

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  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,221Member Uncommon
    OP, they will probably remain P2W for as long as P2P games remain P2W.  Maybe not that long.  P2P games might keep the corner on P2W long after sub-free games evolve.  There isn't much evolution left in the sub-locked restrictive rent-only paywall system except their cash shops continue to grow.
  • jtcgsjtcgs New Port Richey, ILPosts: 1,777Member
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

     Furcadia 1996

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play

     

     I hate Wikipedia...they left Nexus: Kingdom of the Winds off that list and that was the first major success in the F2P field, came out in 1996 also.

    That game created the monster that is Nexon today...1.2 billion in profits two years straight and only EA is a larger gaming company.

    “I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Bossalinie
    @Blasphim Is that any worse than an individual who can't play the game at all because he can't front X amount of money a month for a subscription?

    At least the individual gets to play the game in P2W situations...

    Plus, it is only fair that those who subsidize the game get a little advantage.

    If you want to be on a level playing field, you have the same choice as they do to pay up.

    Depends on how you term advantage. There is a vast difference between putting bullets in the store that deal 10 more damage than anything that you can get in game and someone getting an xp booster. Everyone will cap out eventually. There is no way to make up for one person just flat doing more damage. One is convience, one is flat buying power.

    And obviously each game has a different definition of what advantage means ... dependent on the combat mechanics.

    But even with your example ... how about if it takes 10 years to cap out? So if someone pays, he gets to do more damage for 10 years ... surely it is only temporary ... but for a long long time. Does that count?

    It is all grey. There is no black and white line. And it is up to the individual to judge if a certain thing being sold in cash shop is reasonable or not.

     

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,221Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jtcgs
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

     Furcadia 1996

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play

     

     I hate Wikipedia...they left Nexus: Kingdom of the Winds off that list and that was the first major success in the F2P field, came out in 1996 also.

    That game created the monster that is Nexon today...1.2 billion in profits two years straight and only EA is a larger gaming company.

    Yeah, people must have hated that game.  Stupid F2P.  No one really likes those games or the payment model. <that was sarcasm>

  • kadepsysonkadepsyson sun prairie, WIPosts: 1,937Member
    Originally posted by Nadia
    Originally posted by jimdandy26

     listen to people who say that purely cosmetic items are p2w? Seriously?

    taking that one step further with an example

     

    paying for ingame mounts with real cash

    -- its largely a cosmetic item but some people will debate its saving the player ingame cash from buying the mount, thus labeling the mount p2w

    More preferable to me would be a system where a player could by a cosmetic mount look.  They would need to have earned the base mount through actual gameplay already - the purchasable cosmetic would only alter how it looked - not its stats such as speed, nor would it get the mount to a player sooner.

    El Psy Congroo

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,675Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jtcgs
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

     Furcadia 1996

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play

     

     I hate Wikipedia...they left Nexus: Kingdom of the Winds off that list and that was the first major success in the F2P field, came out in 1996 also.

    That game created the monster that is Nexon today...1.2 billion in profits two years straight and only EA is a larger gaming company.

    Never knew that. I have to check that out and see what the game was all about. Thanks for the info.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • Skooma2Skooma2 Glenview, ILPosts: 694Member Uncommon

    At the outset I must acknowledge that I have not read every reply, so, if I repeat any thing previously stated, just say so.

     

    F2P games do not descend from the heavens and install themselves on a computer.  F2P games are not the result of quantum mechanics causing the game to spontaneously exist.   Real people make these games.   They have to be paid.   Servers have to be used to allow people to play.  They are not free.  I can use more examples, but you understand the gist of what I am saying.

     

    F2P =/= P2W.    The fact that people pay for things in a F2P game is what causes the game to remain open.   They have to make money some way. 

     

    As a personal opinion, and not a dig at the OP, the original post seems to be from someone who enjoys F2P games (as do many people) but cannot afford to buy things from the in-game store, which causes  impecunious  people (look it up) to "fall behind" other players.   In summary, some people have extra money to spend on games; some don't.

    Hedonismbot: Your latest performance was as delectable as dipping my bottom over and over into a bath of the silkiest oils and creams.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,675Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by kadepsyson
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Azoth
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

     Yes I do.  However there is huge disagreement on this site as to what constitutes p2w.  If there is a game that has a cs, there are people that are saying it's p2w.

    Don't think you can disagree on anything there. F2P means free to play, you could add microtransaction that are or are not P2W (pay to win) . So in the end it's really simple, pay to win means paying to get an advantage over other players.

    edited - The point was there was a f2p game before UO.  Furcadia is f2p.  It does have a cash shop and you can discuss whether the items are p2w or not however it is still f2p.

    The biggest difference is that F2P is an actual category. It is a fact. P2W is a made up term and it differs from person to person. The reality of that second part would shatter way too many illusions for some though.

     

    Tell me more about how Pay 2 Win is a made up term while Free to Play isn't a made up term :)

    Free to PLay is an actual industry acknowledged payment model. P2W and B2W and terms that players have created to describe games but they are not actual categories. I'm sure you knew this, so I'm wondering why so much antagonism from you today. 

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • jimdandy26jimdandy26 salem, ORPosts: 527Member
    Originally posted by Nadia
    Originally posted by jimdandy26

     listen to people who say that purely cosmetic items are p2w? Seriously?

    taking that one step further with an example

     

    paying for ingame mounts with real cash

    -- its largely a cosmetic item but some people will debate its saving the player ingame cash from buying the mount, thus labeling the mount p2w

    No, because cash is virtually never p2w. Its not something that you can't get in game as it is.

     

    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by jimdandy26

    Depends on how you term advantage. There is a vast difference between putting bullets in the store that deal 10 more damage than anything that you can get in game and someone getting an xp booster. Everyone will cap out eventually. There is no way to make up for one person just flat doing more damage. One is convience, one is flat buying power.

    And obviously each game has a different definition of what advantage means ... dependent on the combat mechanics.

    But even with your example ... how about if it takes 10 years to cap out? So if someone pays, he gets to do more damage for 10 years ... surely it is only temporary ... but for a long long time. Does that count?

    It is all grey. There is no black and white line. And it is up to the individual to judge if a certain thing being sold in cash shop is reasonable or not.

     

    The only game that takes that long to cap out that I am aware of is EvE, and no that would be very much p2w because there is no way in game of speeding up skill aquasition.

     

    The "line" between whats p2w and not is "is this available in game". Nothing else. Even an xp booster (especially in a level based game) will allow someone to get there quicker, but by week 2, 3, everyone has normalized.

     

    I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

    To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by jimdandy26

    The only game that takes that long to cap out that I am aware of is EvE, and no that would be very much p2w because there is no way in game of speeding up skill aquasition.

     

    The "line" between whats p2w and not is "is this available in game". Nothing else. Even an xp booster (especially in a level based game) will allow someone to get there quicker, but by week 2, 3, everyone has normalized.

     

    In theory, you can design the game where it takes a month, or a year (and not just weeks) to "normalize". Does that matter to you?

     

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    Originally posted by Nadia
    Originally posted by jimdandy26

     listen to people who say that purely cosmetic items are p2w? Seriously?

    taking that one step further with an example

     

    paying for ingame mounts with real cash

    -- its largely a cosmetic item but some people will debate its saving the player ingame cash from buying the mount, thus labeling the mount p2w

    No, because cash is virtually never p2w. Its not something that you can't get in game as it is.

     

    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by jimdandy26

    Depends on how you term advantage. There is a vast difference between putting bullets in the store that deal 10 more damage than anything that you can get in game and someone getting an xp booster. Everyone will cap out eventually. There is no way to make up for one person just flat doing more damage. One is convience, one is flat buying power.

    And obviously each game has a different definition of what advantage means ... dependent on the combat mechanics.

    But even with your example ... how about if it takes 10 years to cap out? So if someone pays, he gets to do more damage for 10 years ... surely it is only temporary ... but for a long long time. Does that count?

    It is all grey. There is no black and white line. And it is up to the individual to judge if a certain thing being sold in cash shop is reasonable or not.

     

    The only game that takes that long to cap out that I am aware of is EvE, and no that would be very much p2w because there is no way in game of speeding up skill aquasition.

     

    The "line" between whats p2w and not is "is this available in game". Nothing else. Even an xp booster (especially in a level based game) will allow someone to get there quicker, but by week 2, 3, everyone has normalized.

     

    In your opinion.  Nothing you stated is factual of course.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • kadepsysonkadepsyson sun prairie, WIPosts: 1,937Member
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by kadepsyson
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Azoth
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

     Yes I do.  However there is huge disagreement on this site as to what constitutes p2w.  If there is a game that has a cs, there are people that are saying it's p2w.

    Don't think you can disagree on anything there. F2P means free to play, you could add microtransaction that are or are not P2W (pay to win) . So in the end it's really simple, pay to win means paying to get an advantage over other players.

    edited - The point was there was a f2p game before UO.  Furcadia is f2p.  It does have a cash shop and you can discuss whether the items are p2w or not however it is still f2p.

    The biggest difference is that F2P is an actual category. It is a fact. P2W is a made up term and it differs from person to person. The reality of that second part would shatter way too many illusions for some though.

     

    Tell me more about how Pay 2 Win is a made up term while Free to Play isn't a made up term :)

    Free to PLay is an actual industry acknowledged payment model. P2W and B2W and terms that players have created to describe games but they are not actual categories. I'm sure you knew this, so I'm wondering why so much antagonism from you today. 

    I don't mean to be antagonizing honestly.

    I do want to point out that the MMORPG industry does acknowledge and post about P2W.  Path of Exile made by Grinding Gear Games has a clear stance against it, in fact.

    I agree that P2W isn't something that can be easily a category - probably because it's very hard to get a solid agreed upon definition around here haha

    El Psy Congroo

  • Schoeneck93Schoeneck93 Boise, IDPosts: 70Member

    Yes, damn these game companies whose devs spend THOUSANDS OF HOURS WORKING ON THESE GAMES and they want to get paid for it.

     

    Who would've thought... I mean I understand disliking pay to win, I'd personally rather have a sub. But truly PTW is just their way of making money. Which is completely damned fair if you ask me, anyone who disagrees doesn't know shit about programming, designing, or anything of the likes. It takes HARD man hours. Tens of thousands of them. It's not easy. You think your in-game grind is hard, you don't know anything. 

    And the fact is, if they don't have those things you pay for that give you an advantage, then people won't pay for it. Which is what they need, so they can continue to make their games, and continue to add content to their games, they need money. What is so wrong about that? 

     

    The only way to fix this is to bring back paid subs. Which people will also complain about. 

     

    So it comes down to this; lose people who don't want to pay for subs, or make it free so people who don't have money can play, thus increasing population and PR and media awareness of this game, drawing in even bigger crowds, eventually drawing in big money. 

    Good for them. I hope they get all the money they need to pay their guys who work their asses off building these games. 

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,675Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by kadepsyson

    I agree that P2W isn't something that can be easily a category - probably because it's very hard to get a solid agreed upon definition around here haha

    I completely agree that getting everyone on the same page for P2W would be a project and a half. It's right up there with 'gank' on the list of terms so vague that they become damn near useless for meaningful discussion. 

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • leojreimrocleojreimroc Toronto, ONPosts: 371Member
    f2p hardly changes anything.  Any player who spends the same money that they would pay for a sub in another game will be able to buy almost anything that they want in the cash shop.
  • kadepsysonkadepsyson sun prairie, WIPosts: 1,937Member
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by kadepsyson

    I agree that P2W isn't something that can be easily a category - probably because it's very hard to get a solid agreed upon definition around here haha

    I completely agree that getting everyone on the same page for P2W would be a project and a half. It's right up there with 'gank' on the list of terms so vague that they become damn near useless for meaningful discussion. 

     

    Yeah.  Especially since a lot of times people know they are paying for an advantage - know it is pay to win, but refuse to say it.  They will say it isn't anything like that, and make all sorts of discussion on how it isn't.  They know it is one way, and claim another.  That would make the defining of the term harder as well.

    Human nature :)

    El Psy Congroo

  • jimdandy26jimdandy26 salem, ORPosts: 527Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    In theory, you can design the game where it takes a month, or a year (and not just weeks) to "normalize". Does that matter to you?

     

    Of course you could, but no one has yet. Its extremely poor design to do so. It would have to be a completely closed system, which does not work. There is always a way for a person to make up the difference, and usually its not anywhere near insurmountable odds like many make it out to be.

     

    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    In your opinion.  Nothing you stated is factual of course.

    What?

    I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

    To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

  • ArclanArclan Chicago, ILPosts: 1,494Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Arclan
    The result is you will be paying a lot more for less entertainment.

    In other words, yes, I know games cost money to make. Right now P2W is a dirty word, but that is changing. BTW, Anything that (1) costs money and (2) advances character progression is, by definition, P2W.

    I enjoyed reading everyone's input. Thanks.

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    In theory, you can design the game where it takes a month, or a year (and not just weeks) to "normalize". Does that matter to you?

     

    Of course you could, but no one has yet. Its extremely poor design to do so. It would have to be a completely closed system, which does not work. There is always a way for a person to make up the difference, and usually its not anywhere near insurmountable odds like many make it out to be.

     

    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    In your opinion.  Nothing you stated is factual of course.

    What?

    You stated, "The "line" between whats p2w and not is "is this available in game".

    This is strictly opinion.  Just as no one agrees on what pay two win items are, no one agrees on where the line is.  This is not fact, don't present it as such.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by Arclan

     


    Originally posted by Arclan
    The result is you will be paying a lot more for less entertainment.

     

    In other words, yes, I know games cost money to make. Right now P2W is a dirty word, but that is changing. BTW, Anything that (1) costs money and (2) advances character progression is, by definition, P2W.

    I enjoyed reading everyone's input. Thanks.

    No its not. If you can spend cash to buy an advantage, that is P2W - "buy to win". A lot of F2P games don't qualify.

    Your definition is piss poor.

     

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,675Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Arclan

     


    Originally posted by Arclan
    The result is you will be paying a lot more for less entertainment.

     

    In other words, yes, I know games cost money to make. Right now P2W is a dirty word, but that is changing. BTW, Anything that (1) costs money and (2) advances character progression is, by definition, P2W.

    I enjoyed reading everyone's input. Thanks.

    You've perfectly described an expansion pack.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • kadepsysonkadepsyson sun prairie, WIPosts: 1,937Member
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Arclan

     


    Originally posted by Arclan
    The result is you will be paying a lot more for less entertainment.

     

    In other words, yes, I know games cost money to make. Right now P2W is a dirty word, but that is changing. BTW, Anything that (1) costs money and (2) advances character progression is, by definition, P2W.

    I enjoyed reading everyone's input. Thanks.

    You've perfectly described an expansion pack.

    Ha, that is awesome.  Good call on that!

    El Psy Congroo

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by kadepsyson
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Arclan

     


    Originally posted by Arclan
    The result is you will be paying a lot more for less entertainment.

     

    In other words, yes, I know games cost money to make. Right now P2W is a dirty word, but that is changing. BTW, Anything that (1) costs money and (2) advances character progression is, by definition, P2W.

    I enjoyed reading everyone's input. Thanks.

    You've perfectly described an expansion pack.

    Ha, that is awesome.  Good call on that!

    ahah ... i am 100% for p2w now :)

  • kadepsysonkadepsyson sun prairie, WIPosts: 1,937Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by kadepsyson
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Arclan

     


    Originally posted by Arclan
    The result is you will be paying a lot more for less entertainment.

     

    In other words, yes, I know games cost money to make. Right now P2W is a dirty word, but that is changing. BTW, Anything that (1) costs money and (2) advances character progression is, by definition, P2W.

    I enjoyed reading everyone's input. Thanks.

    You've perfectly described an expansion pack.

    Ha, that is awesome.  Good call on that!

    ahah ... i am 100% for p2w now :)

    Ha, yeah.  Hey you know those free trials?  Where you have to buy (or PAY for) the full game to keep going?

    PAY TO WIN!  at least according to Arclan.

    El Psy Congroo

  • SirFubarSirFubar SeoulPosts: 397Member
    IMO, the P2W model is gone for years now. Sure there's still some MMO that does it, but most of them have completely stop using this stupid model. When I started looking into F2P MMO  about 3-4 years ago, the F2P P2W model was all over the place. Now those games can be counted on 1 hand. For me, P2W is something you only need to worry about in PvP.
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