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How long will MMOs hide P2W behind the veil of FTP?

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  • AzothAzoth montreal, QCPosts: 720Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Azoth
    Originally posted by Bossalinie
    @Blasphim umm...you just described pretty much every hobby that involves money...

    Those games arent simply hobby, they are competition. If some have advantage simply because they can put more money in it, it becomes a problem.  What's stopping the dev to put in an I Win button that make you invulnerable and insta kill anyone else for 5000$.

    I am not against micro transaction for cosmetic stuff. Or even bonus to leveling but anything that cannot be obtained by everyone that plays the game is game breaking for me.

    I will never play a P2W game.

    Why is that a problem, unless it is pvp? If i group, why is it a problem if the other guy bought a shield + 5 and can tank better?

    What is stopping dev to put in an "I win" button .. is that it makes the game no fun, and everyone will leave. You want to give SOME advantage but not to much to make the game trivial.

    People don't want to be invulnerable, they just want to have a better chance beating the challenge. You let them pay for what they want.

    I was talking pvp, I dont care about p2w pve games. And people dont want it you say ? I guess thats why no one cheats in games

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Azoth
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
     

     Thats right and considering f2p MMO's with cashs shops have been around since before UO I  would say there really is no generation that didn't accept them in some way.

    LOLwut. What f2p existed before UO? Since many pin UO for inadvertantly creating the f2p model in the first place.

     

    Also, what exactly are you calling p2w? I see that term get thrown around a lot when its not in the slightest.

     Furcadia 1996

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play

     

    you realise P2W and F2P are 2 different things

     Yes I do.  However there is huge disagreement on this site as to what constitutes p2w.  If there is a game that has a cs, there are people that are saying it's p2w.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • BossalinieBossalinie Hattiesburg, MSPosts: 683Member Uncommon
    @rojo6934 just because you didnt pay for anything out of your pocket doesnt mean it didnt cost. It was time he didnt charge you for. Your situation is a perfect correlation to a high level character giving you his old gear and power leveling you.
  • AzothAzoth montreal, QCPosts: 720Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Azoth
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
     

     Thats right and considering f2p MMO's with cashs shops have been around since before UO I  would say there really is no generation that didn't accept them in some way.

    LOLwut. What f2p existed before UO? Since many pin UO for inadvertantly creating the f2p model in the first place.

     

    Also, what exactly are you calling p2w? I see that term get thrown around a lot when its not in the slightest.

     Furcadia 1996

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play

     

    you realise P2W and F2P are 2 different things

     Yes I do.  However there is huge disagreement on this site as to what constitutes p2w.  If there is a game that has a cs, there are people that are saying it's p2w.

    Don't think you can disagree on anything there. F2P means free to play, you could add microtransaction that are or are not P2W (pay to win) . So in the end it's really simple, pay to win means paying to get an advantage over other players.

  • BlasphimBlasphim San Diego, CAPosts: 349Member Common


    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Azoth Originally posted by Bossalinie @Blasphim umm...you just described pretty much every hobby that involves money...
    Those games arent simply hobby, they are competition. If some have advantage simply because they can put more money in it, it becomes a problem.  What's stopping the dev to put in an I Win button that make you invulnerable and insta kill anyone else for 5000$. I am not against micro transaction for cosmetic stuff. Or even bonus to leveling but anything that cannot be obtained by everyone that plays the game is game breaking for me. I will never play a P2W game.
    Why is that a problem, unless it is pvp? If i group, why is it a problem if the other guy bought a shield + 5 and can tank better?

    What is stopping dev to put in an "I win" button .. is that it makes the game no fun, and everyone will leave. You want to give SOME advantage but not to much to make the game trivial.

    People don't want to be invulnerable, they just want to have a better chance beating the challenge. You let them pay for what they want.


    But why should someone with a disposable income greater than someone else's have an advantage in a virtual game? The college student playing with the money he earned from tips working at the the local bar should not be at a disadvantage in a game compared to the CFO of Microsoft.

    Out in the real world it's a completely different issue, of course the CFO will have nicer things, he can afford them, that's the perks of having that kind of money.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Azoth
     

    I was talking pvp, I dont care about p2w pve games. And people dont want it you say ? I guess thats why no one cheats in games

    Well, the topic is about p2w, and no where it said only pvp. So you agree p2w is not a problem in pve? There are people who don't care abotu pvp, and only pve games, you know.

  • jimdandy26jimdandy26 salem, ORPosts: 527Member
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
     

     Thats right and considering f2p MMO's with cashs shops have been around since before UO I  would say there really is no generation that didn't accept them in some way.

    LOLwut. What f2p existed before UO? Since many pin UO for inadvertantly creating the f2p model in the first place.

     

    Also, what exactly are you calling p2w? I see that term get thrown around a lot when its not in the slightest.

     Furcadia 1996

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play

     

    Thats a mud. This is why you should not take wikipedia at face value. On top of which it did not launch with a cash shop. It merely launched free, just like virtually every mud did at the time.

     

    [mod edit] Paying to win is simply when you can buy power that is not available in game. Some can argue that convience (xp boost) equates to power, and in certain systems they would be right, but honestly its rarely the case.

    I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

    To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

  • kadepsysonkadepsyson sun prairie, WIPosts: 1,937Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Azoth
     

    I was talking pvp, I dont care about p2w pve games. And people dont want it you say ? I guess thats why no one cheats in games

    Well, the topic is about p2w, and no where it said only pvp. So you agree p2w is not a problem in pve? There are people who don't care abotu pvp, and only pve games, you know.

    Actually when I read what you quoted, it sounds like Azoth admits there are pay to win pve games.  Just that isn't what Azoth cares about as one person.

    Reading: important everyday.

    El Psy Congroo

  • BossalinieBossalinie Hattiesburg, MSPosts: 683Member Uncommon
    @Blasphim Is that any worse than an individual who can't play the game at all because he can't front X amount of money a month for a subscription?

    At least the individual gets to play the game in P2W situations...
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Azoth
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Azoth
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
     

     Thats right and considering f2p MMO's with cashs shops have been around since before UO I  would say there really is no generation that didn't accept them in some way.

    LOLwut. What f2p existed before UO? Since many pin UO for inadvertantly creating the f2p model in the first place.

     

    Also, what exactly are you calling p2w? I see that term get thrown around a lot when its not in the slightest.

     Furcadia 1996

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play

     

    you realise P2W and F2P are 2 different things

     Yes I do.  However there is huge disagreement on this site as to what constitutes p2w.  If there is a game that has a cs, there are people that are saying it's p2w.

    Don't think you can disagree on anything there. F2P means free to play, you could add microtransaction that are or are not P2W (pay to win) . So in the end it's really simple, pay to win means paying to get an advantage over other players.

    edited - The point was there was a f2p game before UO.  Furcadia is f2p.  It does have a cash shop and you can discuss whether the items are p2w or not however it is still f2p.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,666Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Azoth
    Originally posted by Bossalinie
    @Blasphim umm...you just described pretty much every hobby that involves money...

    Those games arent simply hobby, they are competition.

    For you.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • NadiaNadia Canonsburg, PAPosts: 11,866Member Common
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Azoth

    Don't think you can disagree on anything there. F2P means free to play, you could add microtransaction that are or are not P2W (pay to win) . So in the end it's really simple, pay to win means paying to get an advantage over other players.

    If you don't think there is a lot disagreement on this forum regarding that, read the forum more.  Xp boosts alone will cause a 10 page thread on whether it's p2w.

    i agree

     

    people wont agree on the meaning of p2w

    or the meaning of mmorpg  and who knows what else !

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
     

    If you don't think there is a lot disagreement on this forum regarding that, read the forum more.  Xp boosts alone will cause a 10 page thread on whether it's p2w.

    Some say anything you can in a shop that you can get in game is p2w because your not earning it.  People say the 2 second differene in harvesting in FE between the f2p and the subscribers is a huge disadvantage.

    People say all cosmetic items should be available in game, if you don't earn them they are pay to win.

    [mod edit]

    [mod edit]

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • kadepsysonkadepsyson sun prairie, WIPosts: 1,937Member
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Azoth
    Originally posted by Bossalinie
    @Blasphim umm...you just described pretty much every hobby that involves money...

    Those games arent simply hobby, they are competition.

    For you.

    And others, including those who make a living by playing games.  Just because you have a different kind of income, doesn't mean others do not play games to compete, or do so to make their living.

    Also, I'm not even sure why you'd respond with "For you."  Are you sure that Azoth does in fact use them as competition?  Or did you mean something more like "Not for me."  Azoth could have been referring to other people, best not to assume until you know for sure, eh?

    El Psy Congroo

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,666Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Azoth
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

     Yes I do.  However there is huge disagreement on this site as to what constitutes p2w.  If there is a game that has a cs, there are people that are saying it's p2w.

    Don't think you can disagree on anything there. F2P means free to play, you could add microtransaction that are or are not P2W (pay to win) . So in the end it's really simple, pay to win means paying to get an advantage over other players.

    edited - The point was there was a f2p game before UO.  Furcadia is f2p.  It does have a cash shop and you can discuss whether the items are p2w or not however it is still f2p.

    The biggest difference is that F2P is an actual category. It is a fact. P2W is a made up term and it differs from person to person. The reality of that second part would shatter way too many illusions for some though.

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • newchemicalsnewchemicals San Gabriel, CAPosts: 43Member

    My way is vote with my wallet.

    I will pay for games with a monthly sub that does not have F2P.

    Any F2P game I play I will never ever spend money on and do nothing but hog up hard drive space and go on their forums and demand more game access.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,666Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by kadepsyson
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Azoth
    Originally posted by Bossalinie
    @Blasphim umm...you just described pretty much every hobby that involves money...

    Those games arent simply hobby, they are competition.

    For you.

    And others, including those who make a living by playing games.  Just because you have a different kind of income, doesn't mean others do not play games to compete, or do so to make their living.

    Also, I'm not even sure why you'd respond with "For you."  Are you sure that Azoth does in fact use them as competition?  Or did you mean something more like "Not for me."  Azoth could have been referring to other people, best not to assume until you know for sure, eh?

    So basically you understood exactly what I meant in my succinct two words, but you chose to harp on it anyway? ;)

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Bossalinie
    @Blasphim Is that any worse than an individual who can't play the game at all because he can't front X amount of money a month for a subscription?

    At least the individual gets to play the game in P2W situations...

    Plus, it is only fair that those who subsidize the game get a little advantage.

    If you want to be on a level playing field, you have the same choice as they do to pay up.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by newchemicals

    My way is vote with my wallet.

    I will pay for games with a monthly sub that does not have F2P.

    Any F2P game I play I will never ever spend money on and do nothing but hog up hard drive space and go on their forums and demand more game access.

    Everyone does that. People only play/pay games they find fun. Otherwise, what is the point.

     

     

  • EzhaeEzhae LondonPosts: 737Member
    Dear OP, please do not talk in generic terms. Please say which MMOs exactly you have on mind, because recently, most of the F2P conversion I've seen and playtested didn't seem P2W at all. So... what in the seven hells are You talking about ? 
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
     

    If you don't think there is a lot disagreement on this forum regarding that, read the forum more.  Xp boosts alone will cause a 10 page thread on whether it's p2w.

    Some say anything you can in a shop that you can get in game is p2w because your not earning it.  People say the 2 second differene in harvesting in FE between the f2p and the subscribers is a huge disadvantage.

    People say all cosmetic items should be available in game, if you don't earn them they are pay to win.

    People say that the body can repel rape sperm too, doesn't make them any less stupid for saying it.

    Did you actually just compare a f2p or p2w game to rape or a stupid comment about rape made by a moronic politician.

    "here's your sign"

    No, I merely showed an example of what you should not take at face value. You honestly listen to people who say that purely cosmetic items are p2w? Seriously?

    I didn't say I agree.  I said there is a lot of disagreement as to what constitutes pay 2 win.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • jimdandy26jimdandy26 salem, ORPosts: 527Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Bossalinie
    @Blasphim Is that any worse than an individual who can't play the game at all because he can't front X amount of money a month for a subscription?

    At least the individual gets to play the game in P2W situations...

    Plus, it is only fair that those who subsidize the game get a little advantage.

    If you want to be on a level playing field, you have the same choice as they do to pay up.

    Depends on how you term advantage. There is a vast difference between putting bullets in the store that deal 10 more damage than anything that you can get in game and someone getting an xp booster. Everyone will cap out eventually. There is no way to make up for one person just flat doing more damage. One is convience, one is flat buying power.

    I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

    To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

  • kadepsysonkadepsyson sun prairie, WIPosts: 1,937Member
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Azoth
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

     Yes I do.  However there is huge disagreement on this site as to what constitutes p2w.  If there is a game that has a cs, there are people that are saying it's p2w.

    Don't think you can disagree on anything there. F2P means free to play, you could add microtransaction that are or are not P2W (pay to win) . So in the end it's really simple, pay to win means paying to get an advantage over other players.

    edited - The point was there was a f2p game before UO.  Furcadia is f2p.  It does have a cash shop and you can discuss whether the items are p2w or not however it is still f2p.

    The biggest difference is that F2P is an actual category. It is a fact. P2W is a made up term and it differs from person to person. The reality of that second part would shatter way too many illusions for some though.

     

    Tell me more about how Pay 2 Win is a made up term while Free to Play isn't a made up term :)

    El Psy Congroo

  • jimdandy26jimdandy26 salem, ORPosts: 527Member
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    I didn't say I agree.  I said there is a lot of disagreement as to what constitutes pay 2 win.

    Which is why you do not listen to morons, and correct them at every opportunity. If you honestly point out the difference to them and they continue to argue then they are either trolling, or stupid and not worth the effort.

    I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

    To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

  • NadiaNadia Canonsburg, PAPosts: 11,866Member Common
    Originally posted by jimdandy26

     listen to people who say that purely cosmetic items are p2w? Seriously?

    taking that one step further with an example

     

    paying for ingame mounts with real cash

    -- its largely a cosmetic item but some people will debate its saving the player ingame cash from buying the mount, thus labeling the mount p2w

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