Originally posted by AlBQuirky For me, the player, I'd much rather see a game released worthy of charging a sub with no cash shop.
But you asked us to "think like Zenimax." Business-wise, you cannot go wrong with B2P and Cash Shop. B2P is all the rage now so people will accept that it is great from the get-go. You avoid going F2P from a sub when your game fails to keep the players' interests, so all looks fine from the outside when numbers start to drop. Also, creating cool items for the cash shop is much more profitable than creating actual content, which is now a by-product just to keep players playing so they may pay more. For box sales, I would create about 4 tiers of boxes to make people with money feel special. I would tack on some in-game assets for those who pre-purchase.
After all, the whole reason I (being Zenimax) am creating TES:O is for cash, right?
P2P games also utilize the cash shop, everyone utilizes the cash shop. I remeber back when I would be a pet on WoW's anniversery. Now if you want a spiffy pet or mount then you have to pay via a cash shop unless you can earn it in game. Long ago companies where like "Hey.... we can stop rewarding our players for free and put these cosmetics in a cash shop and people will buy it!"
And we gamers ate it all up to prove them right
I am fully aware that there will probably never be another game created that is lacking a cash shop. The money there is too tempting. I just enjoy playing my games without my credit card on my desktop alongside my mouse and keyboard. I am in the minority, I know
[EDIT] Sorry for the run-on posting
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by Tayah I prefer subscription based. I'd even pay a lot more than the usual $15 a month for a good mmo. I'm willing to pay more for a smaller, better community.
In other words you prefer if the game fails and they keep it on life support just like DAoC/WAR etc
Originally posted by Tayah I prefer subscription based. I'd even pay a lot more than the usual $15 a month for a good mmo. I'm willing to pay more for a smaller, better community.
In other words you prefer if the game fails and they keep it on life support just like DAoC/WAR etc
No, but I'd rather play with 250k good, like-minded people and pay more, rather than play with 1 million plus people in a free to play game that's got a shitty community full of kids and teens and basement dwellers that can't afford to play a subscription based game. I'm a bit snobbish, but that's what I'd prefer. I'd pay more to NOT have to deal with the cesspool.
Originally posted by Tayah I prefer subscription based. I'd even pay a lot more than the usual $15 a month for a good mmo. I'm willing to pay more for a smaller, better community.
In other words you prefer if the game fails and they keep it on life support just like DAoC/WAR etc
No, but I'd rather play with 250k good, like-minded people and pay more, rather than play with 1 million plus people in a free to play game that's got a shitty community full of kids and teens and basement dwellers that can't afford to play a subscription based game. I'm a bit snobbish, but that's what I'd prefer. I'd pay more to have to deal with the cesspool.
If ESO ends up with 250k subscribers it will be a financial disaster though.
Originally posted by Tayah I prefer subscription based. I'd even pay a lot more than the usual $15 a month for a good mmo. I'm willing to pay more for a smaller, better community.
In other words you prefer if the game fails and they keep it on life support just like DAoC/WAR etc
No, but I'd rather play with 250k good, like-minded people and pay more, rather than play with 1 million plus people in a free to play game that's got a shitty community full of kids and teens and basement dwellers that can't afford to play a subscription based game. I'm a bit snobbish, but that's what I'd prefer. I'd pay more to have to deal with the cesspool.
If ESO ends up with 250k subscribers it will be a financial disaster though.
If an mmorpg is a good game, people will pay, that's been shown over and over again. When you buy a subscription based mmo, people know full well you will be paying a subscription for it after the initial 30 days "free" from the box sale. If an mmo turns out to be shitty and people won't pay for it, the game goes for the B2P or F2P model with cash shop. Going B2P or F2P from the beginning with a cash shop they know full well the game isn't worth a subscription so they go for box sales and cash shop money grab.
Voted B2P. It's a throwaway themepark game, which has a limited longevity. Also pretty much a solo player game with an ever changing array of players around you (via megaserver instancing of zones). Not a good recipe for a community.
But perhaps fun for a month or 2, maybe more when updates come out .. hence B2P.
Although it would also be great if it were P2P, just so SWTOR might have a chance for another game to beat it's record flop from P2P (~2 million subs) to F2P (~200k subs) in less than a year.
Originally posted by Tayah I prefer subscription based. I'd even pay a lot more than the usual $15 a month for a good mmo. I'm willing to pay more for a smaller, better community.
I agree with this.
Unfortunately this is no EvE Online (niche game). I think they are aiming at the mainstream MMO players, so anything around EvE's numbers will be a "failure"
I love when people use WoW as an example when it suits there needs. You know whats F2P and has the worst community of any game. LoL. I would rather have the WoW community then that community.
We have had one game that is B2P and its community is nothing to praise either. Yet we have many good P2P games with amazing communities, FFXI, UO, Shadowbane, DAoC and the list goes on. Now I am sure there are F2P games with great communites as well, I'm not trying to say there isn't. But having a gate there at the start will keep it from being accessible to every one on the block and help keep out botters and RMT alike if not just the random kid that doesn't belong in the game in the first place.
I love how you use LOL when it suits your needs, see i can do that too. LOL isn't even an MMO so stay on topic will you.
I love how you didnt address anything in my actual post and just decided to make a failed quick jab at my obivous portrayal about how using another game as an example is a terrible way to gouge what the business model should be. Well done sir, well done.
Also going off this community anything with a multiplayer element could be seen as a MMO... /sarcasm just in case you didn't catch it.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
I'd focus on making a great game that people want to play first and foremost.
For the payment model I would offer the base subscription model + cash shop like WoW and a limited F2P + cash shop model to keep the lower level zones populated.
Originally posted by Tayah I prefer subscription based. I'd even pay a lot more than the usual $15 a month for a good mmo. I'm willing to pay more for a smaller, better community.
In other words you prefer if the game fails and they keep it on life support just like DAoC/WAR etc
No, but I'd rather play with 250k good, like-minded people and pay more, rather than play with 1 million plus people in a free to play game that's got a shitty community full of kids and teens and basement dwellers that can't afford to play a subscription based game. I'm a bit snobbish, but that's what I'd prefer. I'd pay more to NOT have to deal with the cesspool.
so you considered every F2P player a kid / teen / basement dweller taht cant afford a sub?....
you have no reason to blame the F2P community with comments like that.... clearly the subscribers who think like you are worse and i would play for free rather than paying to play with people like you. But i know not every subscriber is like you, just as you should know not every F2P player is like you think.
There are harpies in both communities. Your justification is not good enough to defend only one side.
Originally posted by Tayah I prefer subscription based. I'd even pay a lot more than the usual $15 a month for a good mmo. I'm willing to pay more for a smaller, better community.
In other words you prefer if the game fails and they keep it on life support just like DAoC/WAR etc
No, but I'd rather play with 250k good, like-minded people and pay more, rather than play with 1 million plus people in a free to play game that's got a shitty community full of kids and teens and basement dwellers that can't afford to play a subscription based game. I'm a bit snobbish, but that's what I'd prefer. I'd pay more to NOT have to deal with the cesspool.
so you considered every F2P player a kid / teen / basement dweller taht cant afford a sub?....
you have no reason to blame the F2P community with comments like that.... clearly the subscribers who think like you are worse and i would play for free rather than paying to play with people like you. But i know not every subscriber is like you, just as you should know not every F2P player is like you think.
There are harpies in both communities. Your justification is not good enough to defend only one side.
Yes, I consider F2P and B2P players teens, kids, basement dwellers, and even worse, casual players. From what I've seen in the past when games start catering to casual mmorpg players it goes down hill. Those people that want the game to be easier should choose another mmo that caters to casual, much like the free to play and buy to play mmo's are. You may not agree with me, but that's my opinion.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
I chose other. I think what would work well is a low sub 5.99-7.99, but then have a cash shop for vanity items. If I made a game that is how I would do it. Especially with a game so amazing with art. You could have special mounts(I would pay to ride a tiger) special magic(make a fireball have a head of a dragon, etc) pets, special gear.. You get the idea.
Originally posted by Aeonblades P2P Subscription. It's the best way to avoid 75% of MMO asshats.
Gw2 is B2P and I have to say that Gw2 has by far the nicest community around. Might be because the game encourages helping eachother as a community instead of competitive gameplay, so maybe instead of the paying model it's partially also the game itself?
Box + subscription hoping for critical mass and growth after launch, with pre-planned F2P (item shop or freemium) or B2P (box + item shop) conversion for when the population starts dropping.
I think this is just about optimal for a game that doesn't go directly F2P or B2P.
This is probably the most probable, unless they decide to do this at launch. I would say that they had time to learn from SWTOR that there is no way they will be able to keep the initial surge for a long time. No matter how good the game will be, majority of players who played single player games like Skirim or other games and will just to get through content will leave the game after they get to max level.
P2P... I want great growing mmo... not just boring gw2like game...
MMO is service, youre playing in your free time... every service is payable... U can easy spent 7eur in cinema... 10/15eur per month isnt really much...
No it won't, I t will be F2P,with a cash shop and a subscription that unlocks everything where you get cash to spend in the shop per monthly sub.Subscription is not dead.
EDIT: that was to Istavan or whatever he calls himself
Originally posted by Galadourn I want TESO to attract a mature audience, so I voted P2P.
I've played WOW for years and the community I experienced was awful, elitist wannabe and anything but mature...
Then, I got to GW2 and I'm just amazed how better the community in game is. One of the friendliest community in mmorpg world.
I'm not really sure why people get this idea that P2P will get you mature crowd... So far I've experienced exactly the opposite.
I think B2P with cash shop (not intrusive cash shop where it blocks you from progressing) doesn't give the players this feeling that they're getting coined where P2P model does and is outdated (atleast those sub prices which are present today) thus should be left where it belongs.
Sorry man, you lost me in a fit of giggles at GW2 having a good community. This game is actually known for it's piss poor community. Great game in it's own way, but community is not one of those ways.
On this forums? Yeah, on this forums GW2 is the devils community because most people judge the whole community by few fanboys who patronize everyone who says something negative about the game. I don't like the "GW2 community" on this forums as well, which is funny tho, because GW2 community is actually on GW2 forums and game. That's where you can judge a games community. Here, we're all just "MMORPG.COM community".
I'm saying from my experience. I haven't played a mmorpg, yet, where there isn't so many random douchebags... And if you've met them, you know what I'm talking about.
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life." -------------------------------
If I were zenimax I would opt for B2P, you can recoup major costs through box sales. All the previous TES games relied soley on box sales and they continued to support those, so I imagine box sales would be great. Also creates to opportunity for deluxe and limited edition boxes which go for $100 - $250 depends on what's inside.
Then adding a reasonable cash shop with cosmetic items and a few creature comforts (as long as they don't infringe on gameplay it will make money.
As a player, yes I would like free. P2P only if the game is the next WoW will will be with me for the next 5 years. Otherwise I prefer to have the option to come back anytime without cost.
All the previous TES games were worth buying. Word of mouth is going to kill this game, but if they can keep things hushed about it sadly being just another MMO they could probably eek a few extra sales by going B2P and advertising it as a game it isn't.
Comments
I am fully aware that there will probably never be another game created that is lacking a cash shop. The money there is too tempting. I just enjoy playing my games without my credit card on my desktop alongside my mouse and keyboard. I am in the minority, I know
[EDIT]
Sorry for the run-on posting
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
In other words you prefer if the game fails and they keep it on life support just like DAoC/WAR etc
DAoC - Excalibur & Camlann
No, but I'd rather play with 250k good, like-minded people and pay more, rather than play with 1 million plus people in a free to play game that's got a shitty community full of kids and teens and basement dwellers that can't afford to play a subscription based game. I'm a bit snobbish, but that's what I'd prefer. I'd pay more to NOT have to deal with the cesspool.
What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot
If ESO ends up with 250k subscribers it will be a financial disaster though.
DAoC - Excalibur & Camlann
why would i pay monthly for an Elder Scrolls game that wont offer what Skyrim offered? Just because its online? not enough reason.
B2P for me. Of course i will still buy it if its subscription (like i always do) and play the free month.
If an mmorpg is a good game, people will pay, that's been shown over and over again. When you buy a subscription based mmo, people know full well you will be paying a subscription for it after the initial 30 days "free" from the box sale. If an mmo turns out to be shitty and people won't pay for it, the game goes for the B2P or F2P model with cash shop. Going B2P or F2P from the beginning with a cash shop they know full well the game isn't worth a subscription so they go for box sales and cash shop money grab.
What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot
Voted B2P. It's a throwaway themepark game, which has a limited longevity. Also pretty much a solo player game with an ever changing array of players around you (via megaserver instancing of zones). Not a good recipe for a community.
But perhaps fun for a month or 2, maybe more when updates come out .. hence B2P.
Although it would also be great if it were P2P, just so SWTOR might have a chance for another game to beat it's record flop from P2P (~2 million subs) to F2P (~200k subs) in less than a year.
Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.
I agree with this.
Unfortunately this is no EvE Online (niche game). I think they are aiming at the mainstream MMO players, so anything around EvE's numbers will be a "failure"
I love how you didnt address anything in my actual post and just decided to make a failed quick jab at my obivous portrayal about how using another game as an example is a terrible way to gouge what the business model should be. Well done sir, well done.
Also going off this community anything with a multiplayer element could be seen as a MMO... /sarcasm just in case you didn't catch it.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
I'd focus on making a great game that people want to play first and foremost.
For the payment model I would offer the base subscription model + cash shop like WoW and a limited F2P + cash shop model to keep the lower level zones populated.
so you considered every F2P player a kid / teen / basement dweller taht cant afford a sub?....
you have no reason to blame the F2P community with comments like that.... clearly the subscribers who think like you are worse and i would play for free rather than paying to play with people like you. But i know not every subscriber is like you, just as you should know not every F2P player is like you think.
There are harpies in both communities. Your justification is not good enough to defend only one side.
Yes, I consider F2P and B2P players teens, kids, basement dwellers, and even worse, casual players. From what I've seen in the past when games start catering to casual mmorpg players it goes down hill. Those people that want the game to be easier should choose another mmo that caters to casual, much like the free to play and buy to play mmo's are. You may not agree with me, but that's my opinion.
What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
I chose other. I think what would work well is a low sub 5.99-7.99, but then have a cash shop for vanity items. If I made a game that is how I would do it. Especially with a game so amazing with art. You could have special mounts(I would pay to ride a tiger) special magic(make a fireball have a head of a dragon, etc) pets, special gear.. You get the idea.
Gw2 is B2P and I have to say that Gw2 has by far the nicest community around. Might be because the game encourages helping eachother as a community instead of competitive gameplay, so maybe instead of the paying model it's partially also the game itself?
I will not pay a sub for this game it needs to be buy to play.
This is probably the most probable, unless they decide to do this at launch. I would say that they had time to learn from SWTOR that there is no way they will be able to keep the initial surge for a long time. No matter how good the game will be, majority of players who played single player games like Skirim or other games and will just to get through content will leave the game after they get to max level.
Sith Warrior - Story of Hate and Love http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxKrlwXt7Ao
Imperial Agent - Rise of Cipher Nine http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBBj3eJWBvU&feature=youtu.be
Imperial Agent - Hunt for the Eagle Part 1http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQqjYYU128E
No doubt.
WoW has at least 90% immature, TSW and GW2 a whole lot less. It's not the price that keeps them out as much as the content
P2P... I want great growing mmo... not just boring gw2like game...
MMO is service, youre playing in your free time... every service is payable... U can easy spent 7eur in cinema... 10/15eur per month isnt really much...
No it won't, I t will be F2P,with a cash shop and a subscription that unlocks everything where you get cash to spend in the shop per monthly sub.Subscription is not dead.
EDIT: that was to Istavan or whatever he calls himself
On this forums? Yeah, on this forums GW2 is the devils community because most people judge the whole community by few fanboys who patronize everyone who says something negative about the game. I don't like the "GW2 community" on this forums as well, which is funny tho, because GW2 community is actually on GW2 forums and game. That's where you can judge a games community. Here, we're all just "MMORPG.COM community".
I'm saying from my experience. I haven't played a mmorpg, yet, where there isn't so many random douchebags... And if you've met them, you know what I'm talking about.
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
-------------------------------
All the previous TES games were worth buying. Word of mouth is going to kill this game, but if they can keep things hushed about it sadly being just another MMO they could probably eek a few extra sales by going B2P and advertising it as a game it isn't.
a yo ho ho
Ok. I'm the owner of Zenimark
Boss: Hey whats our subscription model going to be?
Minion: I don't know sir
Boss: What do you mean you don't know
Minion: well we havnt played it yet
Boss: so what you're saying is you havn't played the game yet so you cant put forth an opinion of value?
Minion: thats correct.
Boss: this isn't my office..
and -scene-