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[Column] General: Sexism in Gaming 2012: Anger & Intellect

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Comments

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,998Member Uncommon
    I have never heard of any of the incidents mentioned in the article. Guess they would have been buried on the off topic forums since most have nothing to do with MMORPGs.

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • MimzelMimzel KristiansandPosts: 375Member
    Sex is only relevant in a few aspects of my life. Mostly regarding sex. I try to keep things honest, and I meet people. Human beings. Some good, some bad - all of them are men or women.
  • kadepsysonkadepsyson sun prairie, WIPosts: 1,937Member

    Personally, I find sexism articles written by men to be very interesting.  It is a perspective that isn't as widely seen.  I don't care if the man writes about men being sexist, women being sexist, or both.  I just feel that articles written by men about sexism can be extremely important to show that it isn't just women who see and deal with this.  Both men and women see and deal with this, and they both should write about it and fight it.

     

    Honestly though, it is just as sexist to call a woman you've never seen fat and ugly becuase she's a woman, as it is to say all men are pigs who treat women poorly.

    El Psy Congroo

  • bliss14bliss14 eleva, WIPosts: 565Member
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    I have never heard of any of the incidents mentioned in the article. Guess they would have been buried on the off topic forums since most have nothing to do with MMORPGs.

    Google Jennifer Hepler.  She worked at Bioware.  There is a link somewhere to the tweets she was getting.  Some really tough guys out there had very nice things to say to her.

  • SlukjanSlukjan Burlington, VTPosts: 254Member Uncommon
    Most men that make sexist remarks and stuff are just doing it to get a laugh.  They are what you call "trolls"...making comments just to get a rise our of the person.  I am not sexist and love and respect all women...but somtimes I chuckle at sexist remarks.  You have to admit...sometimes its funny.  But just when it is generalizations like "my wife is too busy doing laundry to play video games".  Stuff like that can be humorous and sometimes its meant to be a joke cracked by a wise guy and not a serious statement.  Comments about rape and violence or threats, however, are not cool.
  • KniknaxKniknax LeicesterPosts: 567Member Uncommon

    Theres millions of people playing games online, and millions of more geeks who prefer movies and tv shows. Your report of a few individuals bullying their fellow players, or even a few hundred sexist people making horrible tweets - this is in no way indicative of men in general!

    I know lots of men and women gamers, and have done since I started back in the days of Doom, and I have never heard anyone make sexist remarks. If anyone did, I would be mortified.

    Maybe it depends on who you hang out with, just like in real life.

    Besides, I've never met an MMO'er who didnt want their partner to join us in our addiction, it makes life so much easier!! :)

    "When people don't know much about something, they tend to fill in the blanks the way they want them to be filled in. They are almost always disappointed." - Will Wright

  • IG-88IG-88 GrandosPosts: 143Member

    I have no idea what games OP referes to, and the whole thread looks like flaimbait.

     

    My main character is a female and has been around for severar years, and never, ever has she/me been subjected to remarks of a sexual kind, being treated different (in a negative way) because of gender or otherwise.

    Sure, there have been invites to ingame marriage, flirts  etc, but never anything negative.

    Regarding loot, nope, never been given stuff for free becasue of gender.

     

    Generalizing like OP does, is a bad thing.

     

  • caetftlcaetftl Los Angeles, CAPosts: 358Member
    Originally posted by bliss14
    Originally posted by Betaguy
    Originally posted by caetftl
    [mod edit]

     

    [mod edit]

    [mod edit]

    It reflects more on the idiots giving people "free loot" than the girls getting it.  Do the guys expect a happy ending or something that night?

     

    It's in the dna... men feel good when gaining favor with a female they are fond of.  And yea, guys are idiots when they let a girl milk them in video games just because they are girls, but that isn't the issue here, the issue is girls getting special treatment, then complaining when abusing that creates a negative connotation in some people's eyes.

    I've been playing MMOs and online games in general since the 90s, and I can tell you i've never met a female that could compete at the upper echelons in skill.  Does that sound bad?  Sure... but it is a fact... based on my personal experience.  Every female that has had great success in competitive aspects of MMORPGs, have always done so by latching on to some guy and getting favoritism. 

    One such case is a female named Hafu, which became pretty well known in WoW arena esports, she was sleeping with a much older guy that was carrying her in tournaments.  Now Hafu plays LoL, gets carried by guys and gets tons of stream viewers just for being a girl in make-up. 

    She is not the only female that milks guys in this fashion... we've all seen the LoL female support players who get carried by pros, we've all seen the night elf priestesses in vanilla that get t2 priest chest before the best priests in the guild, simply because they are in an e-relationship with a night elf male warrior guild leader. 

    The ball is really in the female's court... want to be respected as a gamer?  Be proficient at them, don't take any shortcuts or favors, earn it all on your own.  Show me the passion to master a game, not just sit there saying *mwah* and getting carried.  I've been waiting over a decade to be proven wrong, I want to be proven wrong, because i love women, but i won't call a duck a goose. 

    Oh yea.. and another thing you can do is stop ranting about sexism, because guys give each other a hard time too... if you truly want to be treated equally... you get the same roughhousing. 
     
  • kadepsysonkadepsyson sun prairie, WIPosts: 1,937Member
    Originally posted by Slukjan
    But just when it is generalizations like "my wife is too busy doing laundry to play video games".  Stuff like that can be humorous and sometimes its meant to be a joke cracked by a wise guy and not a serious statement.

    Sometimes my girlfriend really is too busy doing laundry to play video games...

    Other times I am too busy doing my own laundry to play video games...

    but either way, we both find plenty of time to play video games together.

     

    I'm not sure why the article didn't touch on any of the sexism directed towards men in 2012.  It may not have caught as much attention, but it was there.  I feel that an article about sexism should treat the topic with equality - like how people are supposed to be treated.  So in other words, I'd like to see both the sexist things men said and did, the sexist things women said and did, and perhaps have the article touch on the good that can and did come out of it, such as greater attention brought to the subject.

    I am not sure why the article is titled sexism - when it could have been retittled "hatred towards women" just as easily without the article needed to be rewritten.  If someone were to write an article about sexism but not focus on just how women were treated badly by men, I feel that would be a very important topic to read.  Cover both sides of it, cover the bad, cover the good.

    It's an important topic, and by just covering women, the author seems to be taking sides rather than covering the whole issue of sexism in gaming.

     

    Note that these are my personal feelings about the article, and it has nothing to do with the author as a person.  I want this issue brought to attention, but done so with greater care.

    El Psy Congroo

  • uller30uller30 MILWAUKEE, WIPosts: 114Member
    In all honesty who cares if x or y plays a game or if a women is getti g on man time grow up. Honestly maybe people should looks at society and why these guys are holed up playing games have low/zero interaction skills with girls or even others of the same gender. I laugh at people who assume I'm a girl so let me play you have to fine, play u get pooped on and can't take he gear am abuse of morons sorry. I can't handle the "I have boobs" watch me play/give me money/items mentality. I don't associate with little girls. Grow men and women can take conversations and talking they hav the option to ignore ban and laugh at the ignorant people. The ones who are the most out spoken against women/races playing or working are the ignorant and truly uneducated people in our society. It takes the rest of he culture to say ok glad you'll die alone and have to pay a hooker for sex you loser GG.
  • bliss14bliss14 eleva, WIPosts: 565Member
    [mod edit]
  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,458Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by caetftl

     

    It's in the dna... men feel good when gaining favor with a female they are fond of.  And yea, guys are idiots when they let a girl milk them in video games just because they are girls, but that isn't the issue here, the issue is girls getting special treatment, then complaining when abusing that creates a negative connotation in some people's eyes.

    I've been playing MMOs and online games in general since the 90s, and I can tell you i've never met a female that could compete at the upper echelons in skill.  Does that sound bad?  Sure... but it is a fact... based on my personal experience.  Every female that has had great success in competitive aspects of MMORPGs, have always done so by latching on to some guy and getting favoritism. 

    One such case is a female named Hafu, which became pretty well known in WoW arena esports, she was sleeping with a much older guy that was carrying her in tournaments.  Now Hafu plays LoL, gets carried by guys and gets tons of stream viewers just for being a girl in make-up. 

    She is not the only female that milks guys in this fashion... we've all seen the LoL female support players who get carried by pros, we've all seen the night elf priestesses in vanilla that get t2 priest chest before the best priests in the guild, simply because they are in an e-relationship with a night elf male warrior guild leader. 

    The ball is really in the female's court... want to be respected as a gamer?  Be proficient at them, don't take any shortcuts or favors, earn it all on your own.  Show me the passion to master a game, not just sit there saying *mwah* and getting carried.  I've been waiting over a decade to be proven wrong, I want to be proven wrong, because i love women, but i won't call a duck a goose. 

    Oh yea.. and another thing you can do is stop ranting about sexism, because guys give each other a hard time too... if you truly want to be treated equally... you get the same roughhousing. 
     

    Yeah, but you are assuming that all women do this.

    I'm sure there are women who latch on to guys for support and do so by batting their eyelashes. So sure, I agree that if they want to be respected in game "for the abilities that the game requires" they need to step it up.

    But since I don't know "every woman who plays games" I can't realistically (or with a straight face) say that they all do this as you indicate.

    I bet dollars to donuts that the truth is that you just noticed women doing this in games and because these particular women distinguish themselvse in this fashion they stand out.

    In some ways it's a difficutl thing to asses. Some of your post sounds so 1950's bakward thinking. But the truth is that there are women who use their wiles to get ahead. And there are women who have no problem being miss suzy home maker and letting their man bring home the bacon.

    But there are women who are tired of being lumped in with these women and who do try to distinguish themselves on their own merit.

    Lastly, maybe there aren't as many awesome women gamers because those who are worth their salt in anything they do, ply their abilities, time and effort in other activities that they think are more worthwhile?

    I would be very interested in seeing some women stand up and say "well, these are our accomplishments".

    My sense is that the women who act in a manner as  you suggest would be finding the fast track even if they were men. That it's not about them being women but about them being the type of people who use others to get ahead and since they are women they just use the tools at hand. That in fact, the men who use others to get ahead do so by using other methods.

     

  • aslan132aslan132 Tampa, FLPosts: 378Member Uncommon

    Personally I feel articles like this do more harm than good. These generalizations do not make people aware of an existing problem. It only serves to highlight the negativity, and it makes all women seem like victims. There are hundreds and thousands of women gamers all across the world that have never been effected by sexism in gaming, but congratulations, now they will. You have taken a small number of women, and individual cases and applied it to an entire gender. 

     

    This is no worse than homosexual or even racial issues. By making these isolated cases seem bigger than they are, you turn society against the "victims", and make people feel pity for them, and then it carries over to everyone associated with them. 

     

    Please dont make more women victims in gaming. Women in gaming is a very real thing, and most are very happy with the way things are. They are in great guilds and communities, accepted by men and women alike, and share all the same interests and achievements as men do. Stop destroying that, and trying to make them feel like they are a lesser gender. This article is a travesty and should be removed before it causes any more harm. 

  • erictlewiserictlewis Cottondale, ALPosts: 3,026Member Uncommon

    Well I read the article twice.  I had no clue about the names in the article or the situations of what the op talks about.  I had to dig hard on google to find anything about them in fact.  

    I once had an interview at a local lawers office to work in their it department.  I was told if I was hired there would be no funny bussines, or messing around. I told the lady I been married for at that time 23 years, and never had a problem.  I was then told oh you dont understand other than the 2 male autorneys the rest of the staff was comprised of ladies between the ages of 20-46 and none of them married.  Needless to say I did not entertain that job offer.

    I been playing video games for years.  It never once mattered to me who was on the other side of the keyboard. I try to treat all the folks I played with over the years the same.  I could care less if they were guys or girls, or girls with male toons, or guys with female toons. Until you get in vent in guild chat you never know. I beenin guilds where we had husband/wfie boyfriend/girlfriend members even some lgbt folks.   

    I can only remember once one of our guld mates being harresed in general chat, and those 3 guys who did it picked up a 30 day ban.

    The way I see it you can live a victim mentality and let folks make you the victim the rest of your life or you can stand up for yourself and say I not going to take it.  The choice is up to that person. 

    I don't expect the game to do anything unless folks say somebody is harrassing them, and at that point it is an equal opertunity thing.   

  • bliss14bliss14 eleva, WIPosts: 565Member
    Originally posted by aslan132

    Personally I feel articles like this do more harm than good. These generalizations do not make people aware of an existing problem. It only serves to highlight the negativity, and it makes all women seem like victims. There are hundreds and thousands of women gamers all across the world that have never been effected by sexism in gaming, but congratulations, now they will. You have taken a small number of women, and individual cases and applied it to an entire gender. 

     

    This is no worse than homosexual or even racial issues. By making these isolated cases seem bigger than they are, you turn society against the "victims", and make people feel pity for them, and then it carries over to everyone associated with them. 

     

    Please dont make more women victims in gaming. Women in gaming is a very real thing, and most are very happy with the way things are. They are in great guilds and communities, accepted by men and women alike, and share all the same interests and achievements as men do. Stop destroying that, and trying to make them feel like they are a lesser gender. This article is a travesty and should be removed before it causes any more harm. 

    Not sure about more harm than good.  As you can see there are people on both extremes just as with most topics.  But if it makes even one person think a little bit about their own behavior then it served a purpose.  Most won't change their attitudes of course, either way. 

    The people that really feel that women are inferior aren't going to change their opinion over an article but the people who do so and don't even realize it might just look at what they are doing.

  • DrolkinDrolkin Palio, NBPosts: 242Member

    Why should a person stand up and say their not going to take it anymore?  It is that exact line of thinking that is a part of the overall problem.  If people practiced chivalry towards one another there would be no reason to have to stand up and defend yourself, stop putting the blame on the victim by saying their not doing enough to defend themself and start focusing on the real problem.

     

    Thanks.

  • McGamerMcGamer Fairfield Bay, ARPosts: 1,012Member

    1) Women objectify male characters in games and media just as much as women. Anyone who claims otherwise is a plain liar. It's human nature that it goes both ways, get over it.

    2) That list of "events" from 2012 is unfounded, uncited, and basically "he said, she said" drivel which does not in any way pursuade me to side with the author of this article. I am sure one could look for an obscure report of aliens abducting someone's spleen if they wanted to, get over it.

    3) In an age of political correctness, civil quality, and equal rights everyone regardless of their sex, color, sexual preference or whatever; seriously need to get over it and quit hiding behind labels and whining. Life sucks, oh well. This isn't the 1950's, no one alive has ever owned a slave, women vote equally, and whites are the minority now.  Get over it

    So like I said, people need to just get over walking on glass and move on. The Earth never stopped spinning and life goes on. 

  • caetftlcaetftl Los Angeles, CAPosts: 358Member
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by caetftl

     

    It's in the dna... men feel good when gaining favor with a female they are fond of.  And yea, guys are idiots when they let a girl milk them in video games just because they are girls, but that isn't the issue here, the issue is girls getting special treatment, then complaining when abusing that creates a negative connotation in some people's eyes.

    I've been playing MMOs and online games in general since the 90s, and I can tell you i've never met a female that could compete at the upper echelons in skill.  Does that sound bad?  Sure... but it is a fact... based on my personal experience.  Every female that has had great success in competitive aspects of MMORPGs, have always done so by latching on to some guy and getting favoritism. 

    One such case is a female named Hafu, which became pretty well known in WoW arena esports, she was sleeping with a much older guy that was carrying her in tournaments.  Now Hafu plays LoL, gets carried by guys and gets tons of stream viewers just for being a girl in make-up. 

    She is not the only female that milks guys in this fashion... we've all seen the LoL female support players who get carried by pros, we've all seen the night elf priestesses in vanilla that get t2 priest chest before the best priests in the guild, simply because they are in an e-relationship with a night elf male warrior guild leader. 

    The ball is really in the female's court... want to be respected as a gamer?  Be proficient at them, don't take any shortcuts or favors, earn it all on your own.  Show me the passion to master a game, not just sit there saying *mwah* and getting carried.  I've been waiting over a decade to be proven wrong, I want to be proven wrong, because i love women, but i won't call a duck a goose. 

    Oh yea.. and another thing you can do is stop ranting about sexism, because guys give each other a hard time too... if you truly want to be treated equally... you get the same roughhousing. 
     

    Yeah, but you are assuming that all women do this.

    I'm sure there are women who latch on to guys for support and do so by batting their eyelashes. So sure, I agree that if they want to be respected in game "for the abilities that the game requires" they need to step it up.

    But since I don't know "every woman who plays games" I can't realistically (or with a straight face) say that they all do this as you indicate.

    I bet dollars to donuts that the truth is that you just noticed women doing this in games and because these particular women distinguish themselvse in this fashion they stand out.

    In some ways it's a difficutl thing to asses. Some of your post sounds so 1950's bakward thinking. But the truth is that there are women who use their wiles to get ahead. And there are women who have no problem being miss suzy home maker and letting their man bring home the bacon.

    But there are women who are tired of being lumped in with these women and who do try to distinguish themselves on their own merit.

    Lastly, maybe there aren't as many awesome women gamers because those who are worth their salt in anything they do, ply their abilities, time and effort in other activities that they think are more worthwhile?

    I would be very interested in seeing some women stand up and say "well, these are our accomplishments".

    My sense is that the women who act in a manner as  you suggest would be finding the fast track even if they were men. That it's not about them being women but about them being the type of people who use others to get ahead and since they are women they just use the tools at hand. That in fact, the men who use others to get ahead do so by using other methods.

     

     

    If they are tired of being lumped in, they have the power to go break the mold.  Until then they are just whining and :gasp: expecting special consideration without doing anything to merit it.

     

    Go be a female gamer that doesn't ever talk about her sex.  Go outperform most of the male gamers and show you are a legitimately skilled gamer.  Then once you've acquired some good gaming accolades, tell your story. 

    This reminds me of Dave Chappelle on Inside the Actor's studio.  Where he talks about how people are born with priveleges they may not even realize they have... female gamers are like this often, do they get a little extra benefit of the doubt on everything?  Yea... maybe they got that guild invite cause they were a girl, maybe joeblow helped tank their 5man to help them gear up, because they were a girl.  Most of them are naive or delusional and just tell themselves, "oh we are just being friendly that's how normal people act".  But we both know guys go outta their way to help the ladies, much moreso than they do for guy pals on average. 

    It isn't backwards thinking, it is actually progressive to understand that all things are not exactly equal and that being liberal for the sake of being liberal does nothing.  Better to be objective and accept the facts for what they are, no matter how pretty or ugly they may be.  Show me top progression guilds with a female that is their top dpser, best tank, or best healer.  Show me a female LoL player that got to 2400 elo on her own without having to play support to some high elo male that carried her.  I want to see women prove they are badass gamers, they just have yet to do so, and the ones that have come close to those high accolades, all paint a bad picture because those are generally the ones that whored themselves out extra well to get carried that far. 

  • KroxMalonKroxMalon swindonPosts: 409Member

    There are pigs in real life and there are pigs on the internet, the problem with the internet is that its in black and white.

    I have to say I never new this was an issue. The groups I hang with must be more gentlemanly than most maybe.

  • FatDrunkFatDrunk Las Vegas, CAPosts: 4Member

    Sexism is apparent in the culture. It is taught mostly as a culture or a roll to fill. From woman being paid less on certain jobs to men paying more on car-insurance than females. From girls only deemed to play with dolls and houses to boys playing with trucks and cars. From men willingly showing their full chest to woman willingly showing their breast tops and bellies in shirts.

     

    If woman want more games to cater to their likes, then they will have to recruit more females into the game-making career and create the games they like. Not just based on what the male population is use to, but also in a way as not to come across as Censorship Ahoy Propaganda.

    This can be a somewhat tricky issue, as the "sexism" can be easily be used as censorship in gaming (I do not support censorship). The most common and often used part being that woman are degraded because a female is wearing a skimpy outfit in a game. But in America the existance of things such as PlayBoy and Kahoots exist, and are not deemed as sexism but as entertainment for certain audiences(which can be either male or female now due to LGBT over-turning in West).

     

    The average every-day entertaineer or singer is showing off her breast, butt, boob, or full body. It comes down to pay. Woman dress the way they do to mostly lure in men. Men are lured, pay the woman, and the company gets rich off the thousand of customers they attract. She enjoys the job she does, signs a contract, and is in no way "forced" to do anything she does not want to do out of her own free-will.

     

    Sexism is a word to use carefully unless it is legitament found (denying a female a job based on her gender, firing her because she is a female, ect) as there is nothing wrong for a male to feel the natrual attraction towards a female. This should not be condemn and taught as "sexism" because on the flip-side, a female can be naturally attracted to a male by his attributes as well too. This is natural attraction of the human race, not sexism. If a female does not want the attraction she has a mouth to speak. If the guy cannot take the hint or persist, then it can be considered sexual harassment. Some woman are not afraid to put those who over-step their boundaries in their place as well.

    The sexism comes into roll on how fathers (if they were present at all) in raising their sons. If they taught their sons to treat and respect people in society, then this would be less a problem. But you do have male pow-wows, just as females have their pow-wows as well.

    I have seen though, more woman viciously tear other females down out of jealousy, downgrading or coventness just based on gender alone or competition. So no one is innocent in the case of sexism, nor should everyone be treated as gods or goddesses simply based on their gender alone(I refer this to men who bend over backwards for woman and get the rug treatment).

     

     

     
  • mymmomymmo StockholmPosts: 300Member
    haha. men discussing gender issues...its so funny to behold. 

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  • ScaryMonkScaryMonk LondonPosts: 97Member
    Originally posted by FatDrunk

    That's another flip to the coin.

    The new problems occuring now that woman are being put in the front-lines of army, there will be an increase of aggression or rape to her by her own 'team-mates' or sexual assault by the enemy.

    There was a reason why woman weren't put in the front-lines, because of the gruseomness of it.

    What?  Utterly irrelevent.  I mean there is a time and a place for that discussion, but I doubt this is it.  

  • ScaryMonkScaryMonk LondonPosts: 97Member
    Originally posted by mymmo
    haha. men discussing gender issues...its so funny to behold. 

    Why, they are one half of the issue? 

  • monstermmomonstermmo Glendale, CAPosts: 1,062Member

    I'm confused what this is about, how women are treated in the industry or how they are portrayed in video games?

    As far as the portrayal of female characters in video games i can totally understand a woman complaining about it but you need to keep in mind that until the past decade or so gaming has basically only had a male audience. I'm not saying women never played games, they just cetainly werent the majority of gamers.

    Most video games are fantasy, so having beautiful, sexy female characters for the male audience makes perfect sense. Its not about being sexist. You wont see me going around crying about how all the male hero's in a game are so super buff and not fat and ugly like me. Some characters are but that goes both ways. The major heroes are usually "hot studs." Whatever, i can be an awesome "hot stud" kicking ass instead of a lazy fatty in my living room or bed room.

     

    As far as the way women are treated in the world im just not gonna argue that. This is supposed to be about video games. I do not like the way women are treated in the real world, its not as bad as it was 50-70+ years ago but yes it is still bad.

    I love women, guys are stupid and ugly so i do wish you the best in the world.

    Jeremiah 8:21 I weep for the hurt of my people; I stand amazed, silent, dumb with grief.
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  • AmsaiAmsai Montgomery, ALPosts: 88Member Uncommon

    Ok first I'd like to say that I am a guy, and I play with both male and female players in my little circle of friends.

    Couple of things:

    1. I dont really care about anyone (male or female) outside of my friends (online and off). Call it a fear of having too many friends. Thats why I hate social media, too much oppertunity to meet new folks that I dont want to know.

    2. Im not guilty of any of the negative "guy" behavior towards women, with the possible exception of not getting involved. But its not like I wish any gamers, female or male, ill.

    3. I play games for fun and to escape reality. I could care less for politics or real world issues. Thats why I just say, F@#% everything and everyone and let the world ride its one way ticket in its handbasket to hell! Not my problem.

    4. I dont believe in standing up for others. Im a selfish person and will only do that for me. Its everyone elses responsibility to watch their own ass. Im not running a daycare here.

    5. Any serious threats or harm done to people (male or female) have a coarse of action to take and can utilize the courts. Again, not my problem.

    6. If new laws are required to keep people in check, then the lawmakers can do so. I try to act at least civil or nice to anyone and everyone I meet. Im not an asshole, just a semi-anti-social and selfish person.

    TL, DR : Not my problem, everyone can fend for themselves.

This discussion has been closed.