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[Column] General: Sexism in Gaming 2012: Anger & Intellect

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Comments

  • RyowulfRyowulf Greensburg, PAPosts: 668Member

    If you want to see examples of what the author is talking about go on Twitch.  Find a woman doing a game cast, someone who has more than just a couple of viewers and see how many comments are made based on her gender.

    Or just ask her if she gets that kind of treatment.

    On male game cast, I don't see a lot of "Your hair looks nice today" "Do you have a bf?" "Show us your ****"

  • YamotaYamota LondonPosts: 6,620Member
    Putting collective blame and/or punishment on us men is nonsense. I haven't neither seen nor done any of these actions described in this article so I am not going to take any blame for it. I think it is a very small minority which does these things but for some reason it always get blown out of proportion in the media and then somehow tries to wilifies all men.
  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,453Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ScaryMonk
     

    I take slight objection to the conclusions you seem to be drawing about my character in your response.  I am not going to defend myself because frankly the slightly accusatory tone you use is absurd given that you are forming it from a position of complete ignorance about me.    

    In response: I am playing a computer game, that is all.  I run around and shoot gremlins or some such nonsense.  What is it that you expect me to be doing other than this to combat an issue I have never even seen occur within my computer game? 

     

    ok, great. And I don't know you so you might be a saint. But your, and other, responses are not about "wow, that's terrible that "some" people have to put up with this crap" but more about lashing out in some fashion at the mere mention of it.

    yes, you play a computer game and you attack gremlins. Good for you. Me too for that matter. But the same could be said for "hey, I only want to go to the store, pick up my milk and go home. No drama". However, because people are people they bring drama. Some try to minimize and mitigate drama. But I've witnessed both sexual harrassment and just "harassment" in these games AND witnessed people who created drama and then became all "oh my, i'm being harrassed and I never asked for it" when clearly they did.

    As a gross side note, I was once in game (lineage 2) and had a female character as an alt. And what happened? Some creep started hitting on me and in a very pathetic and disgusting way. He actually though my character was a female in real life.

    Just because you haven't seen this issue doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Is your reaction going to be "I've never seen it so it doesn't exist period" or is your reaction going to be "if that's legitmiate then that's terrible"? That's the point.

  • AeonbladesAeonblades Home, GAPosts: 2,083Member
    Let's counter sexism with sexism! YAY! LOGIC!

    Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
    Have played: You name it
    If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,651Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Harafnir
    If you have a problem with ANY of her points... Then you are one of the guys she is talking about. Just letting you know.

    ANY of her points.

    There is no middle ground. You are either with us or against us!

     

    Just letting you know.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • DerrosDerros Posts: 1,076Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Istavaan
    [mod edit]

    So women are responsible for being treated as second class citizens in some online/geek areas, gaming being one, how so?  By being born?

     

    Ah I know the response, ive seen it to many times: "Well if they didnt keep bringing it up, it wouldnt happen! people are reacting! bla bla bla feminist agenda!"

     

    yep if we just ignore a problem, it goes right away

  • AeonbladesAeonblades Home, GAPosts: 2,083Member
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Harafnir
    If you have a problem with ANY of her points... Then you are one of the guys she is talking about. Just letting you know.

    ANY of her points.

    There is no middle ground. You are either with us or against us!

     

    Just letting you know.

    Better dead than red!

    Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
    Have played: You name it
    If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.

  • ScaryMonkScaryMonk LondonPosts: 97Member
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by ScaryMonk
     

    I take slight objection to the conclusions you seem to be drawing about my character in your response.  I am not going to defend myself because frankly the slightly accusatory tone you use is absurd given that you are forming it from a position of complete ignorance about me.    

    In response: I am playing a computer game, that is all.  I run around and shoot gremlins or some such nonsense.  What is it that you expect me to be doing other than this to combat an issue I have never even seen occur within my computer game? 

     

    ok, great. And I don't know you so you might be a saint. But your, and other, responses are not about "wow, that's terrible that "some" people have to put up with this crap" but more about lashing out in some fashion at the mere mention of it.

    yes, you play a computer game and you attack gremlins. Good for you. Me too for that matter. But the same could be said for "hey, I only want to go to the store, pick up my milk and go home. No drama". However, because people are people they bring drama. Some try to minimize and mitigate drama. But I've witnessed both sexual harrassment and just "harassment" in these games AND witnessed people who created drama and then became all "oh my, i'm being harrassed and I never asked for it" when clearly they did.

    As a gross side note, I was once in game (lineage 2) and had a female character as an alt. And what happened? Some creep started hitting on me and in a very pathetic and disgusting way. He actually though my character was a female in real life.

    Just because you haven't seen this issue doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Is your reaction going to be "I've never seen it so it doesn't exist period" or is your reaction going to be "if that's legitmiate then that's terrible"? That's the point.

    My response would be, its a computer game, it is my downtime.  If I do not like the community for wahtever reason it is no longer escapism and I quit.  

    If I see these issues in real life that is an entirely different matter, but I rarely see them in real life; certainly my workplace (its about a 50/50 mix) and the bars I go to afterwards are a little more enlightened than the general portrayal in this article.  

  • krantkrant Wilsonville, ORPosts: 7Member
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Putting collective blame and/or punishment on us men is nonsense. I haven't neither seen nor done any of these actions described in this article so I am not going to take any blame for it. I think it is a very small minority which does these things but for some reason it always get blown out of proportion in the media and then somehow tries to wilifies all men.

    Yes it is a small minority of men who act out in these ways, but the fact that these men are often supported by others and encouraged by the silence of men who might disagree contributes to the problem.

    The article doesn't say that all men act this way, it says that these actions should not be acceptable in our games.

    And they shouldn't.  If you have never acted in any of the ways described in the article, congratulations.  Now quit whining about not being recognized for your quiet heroism and go out into the world and tell others that thier behaivior is inappropriate when to do act in ways described in the article.

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,453Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ScaryMonk
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by ScaryMonk
     

    I take slight objection to the conclusions you seem to be drawing about my character in your response.  I am not going to defend myself because frankly the slightly accusatory tone you use is absurd given that you are forming it from a position of complete ignorance about me.    

    In response: I am playing a computer game, that is all.  I run around and shoot gremlins or some such nonsense.  What is it that you expect me to be doing other than this to combat an issue I have never even seen occur within my computer game? 

     

    ok, great. And I don't know you so you might be a saint. But your, and other, responses are not about "wow, that's terrible that "some" people have to put up with this crap" but more about lashing out in some fashion at the mere mention of it.

    yes, you play a computer game and you attack gremlins. Good for you. Me too for that matter. But the same could be said for "hey, I only want to go to the store, pick up my milk and go home. No drama". However, because people are people they bring drama. Some try to minimize and mitigate drama. But I've witnessed both sexual harrassment and just "harassment" in these games AND witnessed people who created drama and then became all "oh my, i'm being harrassed and I never asked for it" when clearly they did.

    As a gross side note, I was once in game (lineage 2) and had a female character as an alt. And what happened? Some creep started hitting on me and in a very pathetic and disgusting way. He actually though my character was a female in real life.

    Just because you haven't seen this issue doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Is your reaction going to be "I've never seen it so it doesn't exist period" or is your reaction going to be "if that's legitmiate then that's terrible"? That's the point.

    My response would be, its a computer game, it is my downtime.  If I do not like the community for wahtever reason it is no longer escapism and I quit.  

    If I see these issues in real life that is an entirely different matter, but I rarely see them in real life; certainly my workplace (its about a 50/50 mix) and the bars I go to afterwards are a little more enlightened than the general portrayal in this article.  

    Yeah but monk, this is real life.

    I know that's difficult for some to accept that logging into a computer game is anything other than escapism but humans are humans in any venue they choose to enter.

    My circle of friends as well as my job are all above board and above and beyond as far as treating people well. I don't generally see this crap in my immediate circle. I have seen it in game and I have seen it out of game.

    I've also seen people create drama and put themselves into the positon of "being a victim". I think they get off on it or need it to define them. I have seen people, and in this case women, walkking down the street and get harassed because they were chesty. And not even wearing revealing clothing.

    So again, I believe the issue is recognizing when it's happenign and is a real problem (whether male or female but it seems that women have their own brand of harrassment that they have to deal with) and of course recognizing those who are all about drama.

  • JerYnkFanJerYnkFan Kenilworth, NJPosts: 339Member Uncommon
    Wow MMORPG coming out with some real heavy articles lately.  Frankly no one male or female should be subjected to the type of vitrol that is sometimes spewed on the internet.  When Pokket first started writing here some of the comments were WAY out of line regardless of what people thought about her writing style or subject matter.  Thankfully that seems to have calmed down.  I've also been witness to the same type of junk that goes on with my female cosplaying friends.  IMO the internet lets people be complete a**hats without any threat of reprecussion so it's rather easy to all of sudden grow "beer muscles" and play the tough guy.
  • nezbelnezbel Daly City, CAPosts: 47Member
    Make an XBox Live account with a somewhat girl like username and set your profile info to female. Then go play all the multi-player games you usually do and see what happens when people think your a girl playing the same games you usually do.
  • ScaryMonkScaryMonk LondonPosts: 97Member
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by ScaryMonk
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by ScaryMonk
     

    I take slight objection to the conclusions you seem to be drawing about my character in your response.  I am not going to defend myself because frankly the slightly accusatory tone you use is absurd given that you are forming it from a position of complete ignorance about me.    

    In response: I am playing a computer game, that is all.  I run around and shoot gremlins or some such nonsense.  What is it that you expect me to be doing other than this to combat an issue I have never even seen occur within my computer game? 

     

    ok, great. And I don't know you so you might be a saint. But your, and other, responses are not about "wow, that's terrible that "some" people have to put up with this crap" but more about lashing out in some fashion at the mere mention of it.

    yes, you play a computer game and you attack gremlins. Good for you. Me too for that matter. But the same could be said for "hey, I only want to go to the store, pick up my milk and go home. No drama". However, because people are people they bring drama. Some try to minimize and mitigate drama. But I've witnessed both sexual harrassment and just "harassment" in these games AND witnessed people who created drama and then became all "oh my, i'm being harrassed and I never asked for it" when clearly they did.

    As a gross side note, I was once in game (lineage 2) and had a female character as an alt. And what happened? Some creep started hitting on me and in a very pathetic and disgusting way. He actually though my character was a female in real life.

    Just because you haven't seen this issue doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Is your reaction going to be "I've never seen it so it doesn't exist period" or is your reaction going to be "if that's legitmiate then that's terrible"? That's the point.

    My response would be, its a computer game, it is my downtime.  If I do not like the community for wahtever reason it is no longer escapism and I quit.  

    If I see these issues in real life that is an entirely different matter, but I rarely see them in real life; certainly my workplace (its about a 50/50 mix) and the bars I go to afterwards are a little more enlightened than the general portrayal in this article.  

    Yeah but monk, this is real life.

    I know that's difficult for some to accept that logging into a computer game is anything other than escapism but humans are humans in any venue they choose to enter.

    My circle of friends as well as my job are all above board and above and beyond as far as treating people well. I don't generally see this crap in my immediate circle. I have seen it in game and I have seen it out of game.

    I've also seen people create drama and put themselves into the positon of "being a victim". I think they get off on it or need it to define them. I have seen people, and in this case women, walkking down the street and get harassed because they were chesty. And not even wearing revealing clothing.

    So again, I believe the issue is recognizing when it's happenign and is a real problem (whether male or female but it seems that women have their own brand of harrassment that they have to deal with) and of course recognizing those who are all about drama.

    Yeah but Sov, I have never seen this occur in any computer game I have played.  I have seen all kinds of trolls but I have never been in a position for this to be an issue.  The internet is like the wild west, if you do see it happening by responding you will generally only feed the trolls.  Yes it is wrong, yes it should result in a ban if necessary, I am not in a position to police either of these things in a game, unless I threaten them with my wand of great evocation.  

  • FelixMajorFelixMajor London, ONPosts: 576Member
    I could care less what sex is playing the games I am playing, however if that person happens to be ruining my experience for whatever reason, they can piss off

    Originally posted by Arskaaa
    "when players learned tacticks in dungeon/raids, its bread".

  • TerranahTerranah Stockton, CAPosts: 3,605Member

    So I work with a profession that is greater than 90% female.  You know how many times I've seen or heard sexist behavior coming from a woman?  Many times.  Many, many times.

     

    To be specific, I've had my ass rubbed at work and my penis and balls grabbed/rubbed by more than one female coworker over the years.  I had one female coworker who repeatedly made jokes about small penises and joking how small she thought my penis was.  Finally one day I pulled her aside privately and said, "I don't why you keep talking shit about my penis, I never say anything about your fake boobs, how would that make you feel ? ...but if you want to see my cock I'll whip it out right now and you can see for yourself.  But just to give you a little warning, it's not that small.  In fact, I think you'll be surprised to find out it's a lot bigger than you think."  She declined, and after that she never mentioned my dick size again.

     

    Now I'm not going to say there is no sexism.  There's lots of it to go around.  What I've found from personal experience is whoever is in power usually is the one doing the offending.  It's not so much a man thing, as it is a human thing.  We'll hate each other because of the color of skin, gender, sexual orientation...or hell, if we can't find something to hate we'll make some shit up.  That's just the way a certain contingent of the human race operates.

     

    OP says, 'I'm angry' several times in her article.  Whatever fuels your day.  Now, I'm going to shut this crap out of my head and indulge in some escapism.  Later.

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,453Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ScaryMonk
     

    Yeah but Sov, I have never seen this occur in any computer game I have played.  I have seen all kinds of trolls but I have never been in a position for this to be an issue.  The internet is like the wild west, if you do see it happening by responding you will generally only feed the trolls.  Yes it is wrong, yes it should result in a ban if necessary, I am not in a position to police either of these things in a game, unless I threaten them with my wand of great evocation.  

    lol, ok point well taken and you are correct, perhaps feeding the trolls in some cases is not the answer. I do think that if one is in the position to say something, guild leader or officer, etc then they should. As I've said, I have seen it and in a funny circumstance was at the receiving end. Actually I had a guy hit on an alt in lotro though in his case he was at least nice about it.

    Sorry I inferred anything negative toward your character. I just have concerns when people hear of things that are bad and instead of approaching it with the idea that it could be a real issue they lash out and attack or turn a blind eye because they aren't equipped or are unwilling to admit that there are issues.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member

    Anyone catching Nerd Reality Television? All "gamer press girls", apparently, have pink hair. Except the ones that are blue.

    Gooo pink!

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • GallifreyanRefugeeGallifreyanRefugee St. Louis, MOPosts: 1Member
    MMORPG.com has earned my respect for being forward-thinking enough to hire someone to write about this issue. Good article, looking forward to future work. [Ignore the haters. If anything, they're proving your point.]
  • kadepsysonkadepsyson sun prairie, WIPosts: 1,937Member

    I feel this is a very important topic to cover.  It should get more attention.

    I also feel women can be sexist just like men can be sexist.  I like to think they are equals.

    El Psy Congroo

  • GamayunGamayun LjubljanaPosts: 73Member

    I'll put these three links here, because they illustrate the topic well:

    -Anita Sarkeesian at TEDxWomen 2012

    -Ill Doctrine: All These Sexist Gamer Dudes Are Some Shook Ones

    -Every message is the same. I’m always either fat and ugly, or a slut.

     

     

    I expect a lot of comments will be about how sexism in gaming doesn't exist, how it's not a big issue at all, and how actually men suffer more than women in that regard. 

     

    Le me reply to that with a LOL in advance. 

     

    Rudeness and plain harassment in games are not gender neutral, and are not equally tallied. There's a whole spectrum of behavior and insults that women are subjected to and men aren't. The insults are usually connected to female sexuality and body (sexual objectifying of women gamers, disacknowledgment of women's right to express themselves and to freely accept/reject romantic or sexual advances) and to the idea of female inferiority and extremely locked gender roles. 

     

    Anyway, one part of the problem is the representation of women (heavily idealized and sexualized body and armor in comparison to male characters) , still often restrictive roles of female characters in games. The other is the community, where intolerance and disdain for females, various minorities... (the "Other"), already present outside the internet, become even more problematic in an environment without personal responsibility and with a tradition of excluding women. 

     

    Sure, there are women who conform to and agree with the currently predominant (male?) gamer mentality, because we're all affected by the same and constant messages by the media and the society, and there's always the pressure to fit in the group, but that doesn't make sexism right or good.

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,453Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by kadepsyson

    I feel this is a very important topic to cover.  It should get more attention.

    I also feel women can be sexist just like men can be sexist.  I like to think they are equals.

    To that I agree.

    Years ago I went in for a 2nd interview for a job and the office manager said to me "now, just to let you know, we don't tolerate sexual harassment or unprofessional behavior here" And I said "you have nothing to worry about, I'm always professional and would never think of harrassing or making anyone here uncomfortable".

    To which she responded "oh no, it's not you we are worried about, it's mostly women here."

    However, everyone was very professional so it never was an issue.

  • ScaryMonkScaryMonk LondonPosts: 97Member
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by ScaryMonk
     

    Yeah but Sov, I have never seen this occur in any computer game I have played.  I have seen all kinds of trolls but I have never been in a position for this to be an issue.  The internet is like the wild west, if you do see it happening by responding you will generally only feed the trolls.  Yes it is wrong, yes it should result in a ban if necessary, I am not in a position to police either of these things in a game, unless I threaten them with my wand of great evocation.  

    lol, ok point well taken and you are correct, perhaps feeding the trolls in some cases is not the answer. I do think that if one is in the position to say something, guild leader or officer, etc then they should. As I've said, I have seen it and in a funny circumstance was at the receiving end. Actually I had a guy hit on an alt in lotro though in his case he was at least nice about it.

    Sorry I inferred anything negative toward your character. I just have concerns when people hear of things that are bad and instead of approaching it with the idea that it could be a real issue they lash out and attack or turn a blind eye because they aren't equipped or are unwilling to admit that there are issues.

    I had a similar experience in vanilla wow.  It took me many hours of playtime to realise he was hitting on my female character as I only ever saw it as a bunch of pixels.    

  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel houston, TXPosts: 7,276Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Derros
    Originally posted by Istavaan
    Maybe women should stop blaming men for everything and take responsibility for their own actions. 

    So women are responsible for being treated as second class citizens in some online/geek areas, gaming being one, how so?  By being born?

     

    Ah I know the response, ive seen it to many times: "Well if they didnt keep bringing it up, it wouldnt happen! people are reacting! bla bla bla feminist agenda!"

     

    yep if we just ignore a problem, it goes right away

     

    Lets be honest now... brutally honest...   This is the internet, and MMOs and online games gives all of us 2 things. 1 is Anonymity... the other is Choice.

     

    I've created female avatars... and I've played them.  I didn't feal like anyone treated me any more different.  I could have pretended that I was a girl.. but that would serve the desired purpose that I wanted special treatment. 

     

    In online games more then any other facet.. women have the chance to be treated truly as equals... with nobody ever having to know they are women.   In comparison though,  sexism aside, racial stereotypes are just as prevalent.  For example, having a Screen Name with predominantly jewish connotations may reveal a much stronger and vile bias from an even worse crowd.  

     

    I think pretending like women are suddenly victims in a world where they get to choose to be whatever they want, and still end up feeling like they are overly sexualized or are discriminated against - even though they choose their characters, they choose what they say, and they choose what and how they play, shows some naivety.

    "Loan me a Dragon I wanna see space"


    image

  • bliss14bliss14 eleva, WIPosts: 565Member
    Originally posted by Betaguy
    Originally posted by caetftl

    [mod edit]

    [mod edit]

    It reflects more on the idiots giving people "free loot" than the girls getting it.  Do the guys expect a happy ending or something that night?

  • felbladexfelbladex Shreveport, LAPosts: 34Member
    Originally posted by Derros

    1) Men are pigs when in a large group of other men.  I as a man know this

     

    2) Annonimity of the internet allows for 1 to be exponentially increased in severity

     

    3) some men view videogames as the "last bastion of maleness" for what reason I have no real idea.

     

    I really feel bad when I hear stories like the one you mentioned.  If anything men should want MORE women to be part of "gaming" culture, why not?  more women who have more things in common with you, more friends, more potential girlfriends who share more interests. 

     

    They arent going to turn games into My Little Pony (and admit it MANY of you would actually play that)  My wife loves Halo and Metal Gear.

     

    THERE IS NOTHING TO BE AFRAID OF

     

    To be fair, men treat each other at crap on the internet as well, women just invoke the "Other" or "Not Like Us!" response that has plagued human history.

     

     

    Just to point out a fact. My group of friends and no one that I hang out with (whether in large groups or not) are pigs or do/ talk about anything sexist. It's not just that, but I actually associate with people that are bigoted in any way and if someone does come into the fold of the many of us that exhibits such behavior, they get chastised pretty heavily into no longer expressing such prejudiced views around us or just not associating with us. So the whole "Guys are pigs when around each other" goes out the window and turns into "Knuckle dragging guys are pigs when around other similar mouth breathers."

     

    The inability to lighten up doesn't make you hardcore.

This discussion has been closed.