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Poll: Which payment model is ideal for ESO?

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  • SlampigSlampig Chantilly, VAPosts: 2,376Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ambros123
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    For me, the player, I'd much rather see a game released worthy of charging a sub with no cash shop.

    But you asked us to "think like Zenimax." Business-wise, you cannot go wrong with B2P and Cash Shop. B2P is all the rage now so people will accept that it is great from the get-go. You avoid going F2P from a sub when your game fails to keep the players' interests, so all looks fine from the outside when numbers start to drop. Also, creating cool items for the cash shop is much more profitable than creating actual content, which is now a by-product just to keep players playing so they may pay more. For box sales, I would create about 4 tiers of boxes to make people with money feel special. I would tack on some in-game assets for those who pre-purchase.

    After all, the whole reason I (being Zenimax) am creating TES:O is for cash, right?

    P2P games also utilize the cash shop, everyone utilizes the cash shop.  I remeber back when I would be a pet on WoW's anniversery.  Now if you want a spiffy pet or mount then you have to pay via a cash shop unless you can earn it in game.  Long ago companies where like "Hey.... we can stop rewarding our players for free and put these cosmetics in a cash shop and people will buy it!"

    What you typed right there is a far cry from some of these games with cash shops that sell obvious enhancers that affect gameplay. There is nothing in the shop at Blizzard that gives anyone an advantage over anyone else. To me that is a HUGE difference.

    That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!

  • jtcgsjtcgs New Port Richey, ILPosts: 1,777Member
    Originally posted by Slampig
    I went with a sub model. I just do not like being nickle and dimed for every little thing. Extra character slot? Pay up please, need more bank space or another backpack? Open that wallet... Hate that sh*t.

     Yeah I know, losing a set amount on a regular basis is so much better than having a choice to spend or not.  I mean, why spend $2 for a backpack slot once and $4 for bankslots once when I can pay $15 a month, every month for as long as I play. /boggle

    P2P is dieing, only 1 single P2P game has had more people playing than B2P games like GW1, GW2 is nearing that...and F2P games has made Nexon the second largest game maker on the planet, only EA makes more money and most of that is from console games.

    Sure,there are plenty of MMOs with subs that are subpar with low amounts of players...but that is dropping. There have been too many SWTORs in the last 5 years. The quality just isnt there...and once western companies actually learn how to make a GOOD cash shop, with tons of vanity items, mounts and the like, they will be able to match Asian based F2P games in terms of income.

    “I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,195Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nitth

     

    I hear what your saying, But in reality all 3 models are the same in the regard that if companies don't make money and shutdown, You will never see your characters and items again?

    Yes, that's very true.  I really believe that any payment model or hybrid of them still requires them to put out a good game or people won't pay.

    The latest evolution of the model I'm watching now is Funcom with TSW.  I think it's brilliant to combine box fee, no required sub, a premium status sub option, and the ability to buy permanent premium status.  How they do expacs in the future and how they monetization evolves could heavily influence the industry even if the title is very niche.  I have a huge amount of respect with how flexible and quick they have been to adjust to the market to make their game successful.

    A payment model won't make a bad game good and successful, but the wrong payment model could hamper and hinder its success.

  • Ambros123Ambros123 Neverneverland, TNPosts: 877Member
    Originally posted by Slampig
    Originally posted by Ambros123
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    For me, the player, I'd much rather see a game released worthy of charging a sub with no cash shop.

    But you asked us to "think like Zenimax." Business-wise, you cannot go wrong with B2P and Cash Shop. B2P is all the rage now so people will accept that it is great from the get-go. You avoid going F2P from a sub when your game fails to keep the players' interests, so all looks fine from the outside when numbers start to drop. Also, creating cool items for the cash shop is much more profitable than creating actual content, which is now a by-product just to keep players playing so they may pay more. For box sales, I would create about 4 tiers of boxes to make people with money feel special. I would tack on some in-game assets for those who pre-purchase.

    After all, the whole reason I (being Zenimax) am creating TES:O is for cash, right?

    P2P games also utilize the cash shop, everyone utilizes the cash shop.  I remeber back when I would be a pet on WoW's anniversery.  Now if you want a spiffy pet or mount then you have to pay via a cash shop unless you can earn it in game.  Long ago companies where like "Hey.... we can stop rewarding our players for free and put these cosmetics in a cash shop and people will buy it!"

    What you typed right there is a far cry from some of these games with cash shops that sell obvious enhancers that affect gameplay. There is nothing in the shop at Blizzard that gives anyone an advantage over anyone else. To me that is a HUGE difference.

    And neither does CS like GW2.  Time efficency is not advatage P2W items, there are purely cosmetic Cash Shops.

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,195Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nitth

     


    Originally posted by Ambros123

    Originally posted by superniceguy Subsciption with Lifetime Subscription option. If it offereed LT sub I would take it.
    TSW LTers will vastly disagree.  LT subs are retarded as one can never know the future of a game.

     

    Speak for yourself.

    I agree.  I'm actually considering purchasing that because I can see playing that game until the servers shut down.  Anyway, back to work.  I'll check back later lol.

  • NitthNitth AustraliaPosts: 3,684Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by Nitth   I hear what your saying, But in reality all 3 models are the same in the regard that if companies don't make money and shutdown, You will never see your characters and items again?
    Yes, that's very true.  I really believe that any payment model or hybrid of them still requires them to put out a good game or people won't pay.

    The latest evolution of the model I'm watching now is Funcom with TSW.  I think it's brilliant to combine box fee, no required sub, a premium status sub option, and the ability to buy permanent premium status.  How they do expacs in the future and how they monetization evolves could heavily influence the industry even if the title is very niche.  I have a huge amount of respect with how flexible and quick they have been to adjust to the market to make their game successful.

    A payment model won't make a bad game good and successful, but the wrong payment model could hamper and hinder its success.


    Can agree entirely with that.


    image
    TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  • deakondeakon birminghamPosts: 583Member
    Originally posted by itgrowls

    Well I can see there's no shortage of "p2p zombie" idiots commenting on these forums, apparently 2012 hasn't taught them a single thing.

    Not only does P2P often crash as we've seen time and time again in 2012 but it certainly does NOT guarantee quality people as we've all seen from games like WoW. So My suggestion to those who are holding onto that dream in this continuing economic crisis is, dream on.

    "The elitism is strong with this one", is what came to mind when I saw the first few comments on this thread. 

    For all those who want another P2P marvel let me remind you of the last one we had, "May the force be with you". Yeah we saw how well that went didn't we, and please please don't insult our intelligence by suggesting it's not due to the payment model.

    So the thing everyone complained about swtor at launch was the payment model? Nope it was lack of end game, ilum slide show,  no ui customisation, no lfg, poor engine etc.

    Hardly anyone complained about the payment model until people started realising the quality of the game wasnt worth the payment due to them releasing the game in alpha shape.

    So no swtors faults had nothing to do with payment model and had more to do with releasing an unfinished game on an engine that couldnt handle what they wanted players to use it for.

    If subs weredead then no one would be using that model let alone the most succesfull game in the genre

  • Ambros123Ambros123 Neverneverland, TNPosts: 877Member
    Originally posted by Nitth

     


    Originally posted by Ambros123

    Originally posted by superniceguy Subsciption with Lifetime Subscription option. If it offereed LT sub I would take it.
    TSW LTers will vastly disagree.  LT subs are retarded as one can never know the future of a game.

     

    Speak for yourself.

    Ohhh really... then how bout the constant threads that displeased players made when their LT sub was pretty much null n void, same thing that happened in SWTOR and STO LTers.  MANY were upset and really only the gullible would take a LTer sub.  TSW is a very light pop MMO and many of thier LTers left and signed the game off.  Two cross guilds games I know of had their TWS charters moved to active games which means it's a very small activity or members.  Case n point why I say LT subs are retarded and only the gullible will purchase.

     

  • Ambros123Ambros123 Neverneverland, TNPosts: 877Member
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by Nitth

     


    Originally posted by Ambros123

    Originally posted by superniceguy Subsciption with Lifetime Subscription option. If it offereed LT sub I would take it.
    TSW LTers will vastly disagree.  LT subs are retarded as one can never know the future of a game.

     

    Speak for yourself.

    I agree.  I'm actually considering purchasing that because I can see playing that game until the servers shut down.  Anyway, back to work.  I'll check back later lol.

    Which one can do now for 30 bucks vs the... what 200 bucks for LT sub pluse the 50-60 buck retail price when it was being sold?  Clearly a rip off when you compare it now.  LT subs are gambles which have yet to see a game pay it off with the exception of maybe Rift.

  • NitthNitth AustraliaPosts: 3,684Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by deakon
    Originally posted by itgrowls Well I can see there's no shortage of "p2p zombie" idiots commenting on these forums, apparently 2012 hasn't taught them a single thing. Not only does P2P often crash as we've seen time and time again in 2012 but it certainly does NOT guarantee quality people as we've all seen from games like WoW. So My suggestion to those who are holding onto that dream in this continuing economic crisis is, dream on. "The elitism is strong with this one", is what came to mind when I saw the first few comments on this thread.  For all those who want another P2P marvel let me remind you of the last one we had, "May the force be with you". Yeah we saw how well that went didn't we, and please please don't insult our intelligence by suggesting it's not due to the payment model.
    So the thing everyone complained about swtor at launch was the payment model? Nope it was lack of end game, ilum slide show,  no ui customisation, no lfg, poor engine etc.

    Hardly anyone complained about the payment model until people started realising the quality of the game wasnt worth the payment due to them releasing the game in alpha shape.

    So no swtors faults had nothing to do with payment model and had more to do with releasing an unfinished game on an engine that couldnt handle what they wanted players to use it for.

    If subs weredead then no one would be using that model let alone the most succesfull game in the genre


    That's not entirely true.

    There was a percentage of people that really wanted kotor 3. They even got bent out of shape because Bioware requested that they put down a credit card for future reoccurring payments. and when bioware refused a refund after 30 days then proceeded to charge back.

    Now, The people that approached it as an mmorpg did for the most part take issues with what you described and the fact that the game did not meet the expectations of what was in their head.

    image
    TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  • PyrateLVPyrateLV Las Vegas, NVPosts: 1,096Member Common
    I think the Cancelation Model will be the most popular payment option

    Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
    Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
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    Following: The Repopulation
    I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
    ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)

  • NitthNitth AustraliaPosts: 3,684Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Ambros123
    Originally posted by Torvaldr Originally posted by Nitth   Originally posted by Ambros123 Originally posted by superniceguy Subsciption with Lifetime Subscription option. If it offereed LT sub I would take it.
    TSW LTers will vastly disagree.  LT subs are retarded as one can never know the future of a game.
      Speak for yourself.
    I agree.  I'm actually considering purchasing that because I can see playing that game until the servers shut down.  Anyway, back to work.  I'll check back later lol.
    Which one can do now for 30 bucks vs the... what 200 bucks for LT sub pluse the 50-60 buck retail price when it was being sold?  Clearly a rip off when you compare it now.  LT subs are gambles which have yet to see a game pay it off with the exception of maybe Rift.

    I will always receive funcom points.
    I will always get any content i want, (Free after 14mnths)
    Hell i got 25k funcom points up front from buying the LT.

    image
    TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  • BetaguyBetaguy Halifax, NSPosts: 2,590Member
    Originally posted by Nitth

     


    Originally posted by Ambros123

    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    Originally posted by Nitth  

    Originally posted by Ambros123

    Originally posted by superniceguy Subsciption with Lifetime Subscription option. If it offereed LT sub I would take it.
    TSW LTers will vastly disagree.  LT subs are retarded as one can never know the future of a game.
      Speak for yourself.
    I agree.  I'm actually considering purchasing that because I can see playing that game until the servers shut down.  Anyway, back to work.  I'll check back later lol.
    Which one can do now for 30 bucks vs the... what 200 bucks for LT sub pluse the 50-60 buck retail price when it was being sold?  Clearly a rip off when you compare it now.  LT subs are gambles which have yet to see a game pay it off with the exception of maybe Rift.

     

    I will always receive funcom points.
    I will always get any content i want, (Free after 14mnths)
    Hell i got 25k funcom points up front from buying the LT.

     

     Going to be a shame when the company folds this year and you get nothing... well maybe they will send you a Xmas card in the mail every year after.

    image

  • NitthNitth AustraliaPosts: 3,684Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Betaguy

    Originally posted by Nitth  

    Originally posted by Ambros123

    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    Originally posted by Nitth  

    Originally posted by Ambros123

    Originally posted by superniceguy Subsciption with Lifetime Subscription option. If it offereed LT sub I would take it.
    TSW LTers will vastly disagree.  LT subs are retarded as one can never know the future of a game.
      Speak for yourself.
    I agree.  I'm actually considering purchasing that because I can see playing that game until the servers shut down.  Anyway, back to work.  I'll check back later lol.
    Which one can do now for 30 bucks vs the... what 200 bucks for LT sub pluse the 50-60 buck retail price when it was being sold?  Clearly a rip off when you compare it now.  LT subs are gambles which have yet to see a game pay it off with the exception of maybe Rift.
      I will always receive funcom points. I will always get any content i want, (Free after 14mnths) Hell i got 25k funcom points up front from buying the LT.  
     Going to be a shame when the company folds this year and you get nothing... well maybe they will send you a Xmas card in the mail every year after.

    Can i patronize you back if the company doesn't fold in a years time?

    image
    TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  • korent1991korent1991 CakovecPosts: 1,390Member
    Originally posted by Galadourn
    I want TESO to attract a mature audience, so I voted P2P.

    I've played WOW for years and the community I experienced was awful, elitist wannabe and anything but mature...

    Then, I got to GW2 and I'm just amazed how better the community in game is. One of the friendliest community in mmorpg world.

    I'm not really sure why people get this idea that P2P will get you mature crowd... So far I've experienced exactly the opposite.

    I think B2P with cash shop (not intrusive cash shop where it blocks you from progressing) doesn't give the players this feeling that they're getting coined where P2P model does and is outdated (atleast those sub prices which are present today) thus should be left where it belongs.

    "Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
    -------------------------------

    image
  • BetaguyBetaguy Halifax, NSPosts: 2,590Member
    Originally posted by Nitth

     


    Originally posted by Betaguy

    Originally posted by Nitth  

    Originally posted by Ambros123

    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    Originally posted by Nitth  

    Originally posted by Ambros123

    Originally posted by superniceguy Subsciption with Lifetime Subscription option. If it offereed LT sub I would take it.
    TSW LTers will vastly disagree.  LT subs are retarded as one can never know the future of a game.
      Speak for yourself.
    I agree.  I'm actually considering purchasing that because I can see playing that game until the servers shut down.  Anyway, back to work.  I'll check back later lol.
    Which one can do now for 30 bucks vs the... what 200 bucks for LT sub pluse the 50-60 buck retail price when it was being sold?  Clearly a rip off when you compare it now.  LT subs are gambles which have yet to see a game pay it off with the exception of maybe Rift.
      I will always receive funcom points. I will always get any content i want, (Free after 14mnths) Hell i got 25k funcom points up front from buying the LT.  
     Going to be a shame when the company folds this year and you get nothing... well maybe they will send you a Xmas card in the mail every year after.

     

    Can i patronize you back if the company doesn't fold in a years time?

     Sure... I have no feelings

    image

  • ScottgunScottgun Williamsville, NYPosts: 356Member
    Heh. Every time I hear about lifetime subscriptions, I think of this from The Big Bang Theory: http://youtu.be/2jAePQzdXGg?t=5s

    Now we're calling prostitutes "sex workers". What's next? Calling hit men "end-of-life technicians"?

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Korent
    That's because wow Is a phatlewt game, where as gw2 is the opposite.

    The more important gear is, the more drama you get in game and the worse the community.

    This goes way back before wow. Way more drama in EQ than less gear driven games like coh and daoc for instance.
  • MollowMollow KoldingPosts: 66Member

    Pay 2 Play.

  • AeonbladesAeonblades Home, GAPosts: 2,083Member
    Originally posted by korent1991
    Originally posted by Galadourn
    I want TESO to attract a mature audience, so I voted P2P.

    I've played WOW for years and the community I experienced was awful, elitist wannabe and anything but mature...

    Then, I got to GW2 and I'm just amazed how better the community in game is. One of the friendliest community in mmorpg world.

    I'm not really sure why people get this idea that P2P will get you mature crowd... So far I've experienced exactly the opposite.

    I think B2P with cash shop (not intrusive cash shop where it blocks you from progressing) doesn't give the players this feeling that they're getting coined where P2P model does and is outdated (atleast those sub prices which are present today) thus should be left where it belongs.

    Sorry man, you lost me in a fit of giggles at GW2 having a good community. This game is actually known for it's piss poor community. Great game in it's own way, but community is not one of those ways.

    Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
    Have played: You name it
    If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.

  • IstavaanIstavaan CorkPosts: 1,350Member
    Originally posted by Aeonblades
    Originally posted by korent1991
    Originally posted by Galadourn
    I want TESO to attract a mature audience, so I voted P2P.

    I've played WOW for years and the community I experienced was awful, elitist wannabe and anything but mature...

    Then, I got to GW2 and I'm just amazed how better the community in game is. One of the friendliest community in mmorpg world.

    I'm not really sure why people get this idea that P2P will get you mature crowd... So far I've experienced exactly the opposite.

    I think B2P with cash shop (not intrusive cash shop where it blocks you from progressing) doesn't give the players this feeling that they're getting coined where P2P model does and is outdated (atleast those sub prices which are present today) thus should be left where it belongs.

    Sorry man, you lost me in a fit of giggles at GW2 having a good community. This game is actually known for it's piss poor community. Great game in it's own way, but community is not one of those ways.

    Wow has the worst community in the mmo genre and it's p2p. The business model does not determine what the community will be like the game itself will shape that.

  • AeonbladesAeonblades Home, GAPosts: 2,083Member
    Originally posted by Istavaan
    Originally posted by Aeonblades
    Originally posted by korent1991
    Originally posted by Galadourn
    I want TESO to attract a mature audience, so I voted P2P.

    I've played WOW for years and the community I experienced was awful, elitist wannabe and anything but mature...

    Then, I got to GW2 and I'm just amazed how better the community in game is. One of the friendliest community in mmorpg world.

    I'm not really sure why people get this idea that P2P will get you mature crowd... So far I've experienced exactly the opposite.

    I think B2P with cash shop (not intrusive cash shop where it blocks you from progressing) doesn't give the players this feeling that they're getting coined where P2P model does and is outdated (atleast those sub prices which are present today) thus should be left where it belongs.

    Sorry man, you lost me in a fit of giggles at GW2 having a good community. This game is actually known for it's piss poor community. Great game in it's own way, but community is not one of those ways.

    Wow has the worst community in the mmo genre and it's p2p. The business model does not determine what the community will be like the game itself will shape that.

    I didn't say WoW was any better, why are we comparing a game that old that we know is the preferred game of kids? It's kind of a moot point. All I was saying was that saying GW2 has a good community is like saying SWTOR had a great launch and plenty of end game content at release.

    Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
    Have played: You name it
    If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.

  • IstavaanIstavaan CorkPosts: 1,350Member
    Originally posted by Aeonblades
    Originally posted by Istavaan
    Originally posted by Aeonblades
    Originally posted by korent1991
    Originally posted by Galadourn
    I want TESO to attract a mature audience, so I voted P2P.

    I've played WOW for years and the community I experienced was awful, elitist wannabe and anything but mature...

    Then, I got to GW2 and I'm just amazed how better the community in game is. One of the friendliest community in mmorpg world.

    I'm not really sure why people get this idea that P2P will get you mature crowd... So far I've experienced exactly the opposite.

    I think B2P with cash shop (not intrusive cash shop where it blocks you from progressing) doesn't give the players this feeling that they're getting coined where P2P model does and is outdated (atleast those sub prices which are present today) thus should be left where it belongs.

    Sorry man, you lost me in a fit of giggles at GW2 having a good community. This game is actually known for it's piss poor community. Great game in it's own way, but community is not one of those ways.

    Wow has the worst community in the mmo genre and it's p2p. The business model does not determine what the community will be like the game itself will shape that.

    I didn't say WoW was any better, why are we comparing a game that old that we know is the preferred game of kids? It's kind of a moot point. All I was saying was that saying GW2 has a good community is like saying SWTOR had a great launch and plenty of end game content at release.

    Because people are identifying a good community with a certain business model. p2p creates a more mature community etc, which is not true.

  • NitthNitth AustraliaPosts: 3,684Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Istavaan

    Originally posted by Aeonblades

    Originally posted by Istavaan

    Originally posted by Aeonblades

    Originally posted by korent1991

    Originally posted by Galadourn I want TESO to attract a mature audience, so I voted P2P.
    I've played WOW for years and the community I experienced was awful, elitist wannabe and anything but mature... Then, I got to GW2 and I'm just amazed how better the community in game is. One of the friendliest community in mmorpg world. I'm not really sure why people get this idea that P2P will get you mature crowd... So far I've experienced exactly the opposite. I think B2P with cash shop (not intrusive cash shop where it blocks you from progressing) doesn't give the players this feeling that they're getting coined where P2P model does and is outdated (atleast those sub prices which are present today) thus should be left where it belongs.
    Sorry man, you lost me in a fit of giggles at GW2 having a good community. This game is actually known for it's piss poor community. Great game in it's own way, but community is not one of those ways.
    Wow has the worst community in the mmo genre and it's p2p. The business model does not determine what the community will be like the game itself will shape that.
    I didn't say WoW was any better, why are we comparing a game that old that we know is the preferred game of kids? It's kind of a moot point. All I was saying was that saying GW2 has a good community is like saying SWTOR had a great launch and plenty of end game content at release.
    Because people are identifying a good community with a certain business model. p2p creates a more mature community etc, which is not true.

    That cant be proven either way.

    Ryzom for example has like 12 players and 90% is a fantastic p2p community. if you let in 200 f2p players the potential for a disastrous community escalates.

    The amount of people associated with the game plays a larger role.

    image
    TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  • IstavaanIstavaan CorkPosts: 1,350Member
    Originally posted by Nitth

     


    Originally posted by Istavaan

    Originally posted by Aeonblades

    Originally posted by Istavaan

    Originally posted by Aeonblades

    Originally posted by korent1991

    Originally posted by Galadourn I want TESO to attract a mature audience, so I voted P2P.
    I've played WOW for years and the community I experienced was awful, elitist wannabe and anything but mature... Then, I got to GW2 and I'm just amazed how better the community in game is. One of the friendliest community in mmorpg world. I'm not really sure why people get this idea that P2P will get you mature crowd... So far I've experienced exactly the opposite. I think B2P with cash shop (not intrusive cash shop where it blocks you from progressing) doesn't give the players this feeling that they're getting coined where P2P model does and is outdated (atleast those sub prices which are present today) thus should be left where it belongs.
    Sorry man, you lost me in a fit of giggles at GW2 having a good community. This game is actually known for it's piss poor community. Great game in it's own way, but community is not one of those ways.
    Wow has the worst community in the mmo genre and it's p2p. The business model does not determine what the community will be like the game itself will shape that.
    I didn't say WoW was any better, why are we comparing a game that old that we know is the preferred game of kids? It's kind of a moot point. All I was saying was that saying GW2 has a good community is like saying SWTOR had a great launch and plenty of end game content at release.
    Because people are identifying a good community with a certain business model. p2p creates a more mature community etc, which is not true.

     

    That cant be proven either way.

    Ryzom for example has like 12 players and 90% is a fantastic p2p community. if you let in 200 f2p players the potential for a disastrous community escalates.

    The amount of people associated with the game plays a larger role.

    That's beside the point, elder scrolls online isn't going to be f2p, it will either be p2p or b2p.

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