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Poll: Which payment model is ideal for ESO?

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Comments

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,197Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Fearum
    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    The same thing applies sub-locked games.  If you don't pay extra for the Rift xpac you are left behind.  They gate and lock instance rewards to require you to sub longer.  They implement artificial time sinks to ensure your recurring fee is in place.  P2P games are just as "pay to win" as most B2P or F2P games.

    I voted B2P, but any sub-free option would be good.  TSW has a great hybrid model.  I also like the B2P model in GW2.  I like how STO has it's F2P set up as well.

    The longer I go without sub-locked games the more convinced I am that I won't rent access to a game again.  I've spent over $300 in Rift and when my sub ends in March/April then all that will be down the drain.  I spent $60 on GW2, $30 on TSW, and $20 on Tera.  I haven't spent over $100 across all my games in the cash shop for the last year.  I get to enjoy those games and access the content I paid for (without requiring additional fees) until they close the servers.  No P2P game offers that and none of them offer me a better experience for the heavy restriction of paywall access.

     So you just want another game as a notch on your belt until the next thing comes along. Thats a valid reason. I still perfer a sub, I have the money and don't mind paying to play a game if I am having fun. If I stop having fun I stop paying the sub.

    Ah, you have no rebuttal other than to sling mud at me and say, "I like subs more so there!".  Good one.

    I have the money too and pay for all my games.  I just don't throw endless recurring fees at them willy nilly and I don't rent time to play them.

  • Total_HuntTotal_Hunt ChichesterPosts: 65Member
    Originally posted by Fearum
    Originally posted by Total_Hunt
    Originally posted by Fearum
    Originally posted by Istavaan
    Originally posted by Fearum
    Originally posted by Istavaan
    Originally posted by Fearum
    Originally posted by Istavaan
    Originally posted by Fearum
    Originally posted by Nitth

     


    Originally posted by Istavaan

    Originally posted by Nitth  

    Originally posted by Istavaan The sub model is dead, this game will be B2P.
      The more you say it doesnt make it true.
    You only have to look at recent and upcoming releases to know it's true.

     

    You only need 1 successful P2P title to prove that false.

     There are plenty of F2P games that these free loaders can enjoy, why do they need another?

    How exactly is b2p free loading?

     Why arent you playing a B2P game now. You have a few choices, are they not good enough to keep you playing?

    I am playing a b2p game at the moment.

     How much have you spent in the cash shop if any at all?

    I haven't spent anything in the cash shop.

     Yeah thats what everyone says here, but some how these games continue to go on with no other income than a box price.

    I can assure you that most GW2 players don't lurk these forums. 

     

    I haven't spent a penny either, not even on bags / bank space.

     So you support B2P but you don't buy anything to support the company for making the game B2P. This seems odd.

    If I liked the game more I would use the cash shop. It's a good game but not my cup of tea. It was worth the money I spent on the box, nothing more. I would have cancelled my sub after the first month.

  • VlackeVlacke BelgradePosts: 155Member Common
    Subscription would be best in my opinion.
  • GrayGhost79GrayGhost79 Webster, MAPosts: 4,813Member
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by GrayGhost79
    Originally posted by Istavaan
    Originally posted by Fearum
    Originally posted by Istavaan
    Wow went 8 months without any new content updates, so 8 x 15$ = no content.

     I would rather a game rob me right up front with a sub than try to be sneaky about it with crap from a sub shop.

    at least you have a choice to be robbed or not.

    How so? 

    If the games time requirements are increased to funnel you to the cash shop, then you've been robbed of time. 

    If the games fun has been locked behind a pay wall, then you've been robbed of fun. 

    If both are to harsh and you leave a game you would have otherwise have liked, then you've been robbed of a game. 

     

    Though, cash shops like TSW, GW2, and PS2 aren't bad at all and some that I can live with. These however are not the standard when it comes to cash shops sadly. 

    The same thing applies sub-locked games.  If you don't pay extra for the Rift xpac you are left behind.  They gate and lock instance rewards to require you to sub longer.  They implement artificial time sinks to ensure your recurring fee is in place.  P2P games are just as "pay to win" as most B2P or F2P games.

    I voted B2P, but any sub-free option would be good.  TSW has a great hybrid model.  I also like the B2P model in GW2.  I like how STO has it's F2P set up as well.

    The longer I go without sub-locked games the more convinced I am that I won't rent access to a game again.  I've spent over $300 in Rift and when my sub ends in March/April then all that will be down the drain.  I spent $60 on GW2, $30 on TSW, and $20 on Tera.  I haven't spent over $100 across all my games in the cash shop for the last year.  I get to enjoy those games and access the content I paid for (without requiring additional fees) until they close the servers.  No P2P game offers that and none of them offer me a better experience for the heavy restriction of paywall access.

    I disagree with you. Rift offers a great deal for the initial purchase and sub fee. It's a game that allows for extended play sessions for extended periods of time. You get far more with rifts monthly fee than you do with F2P's and even B2P's. It simply warrants a monthly fee. The Expac isn't exactly content locked behind a pay wall, it's additional content. Thats not exactly the same thing. A great deal was added with the expac for rift, in fact you could not get the same amount of additional content from any f2p while spending the same amount or even double the cost of Storm Legion. 

     

    GW2 and TSW are good games and both fit the Buy to Play model pretty well. They offer games that don't have the extended play potential of a game like Rift but they do offer quality and polish as well as a decent amount of content. Unfortunately neither would really make it as a pay to play due to the lack of extended game play potential. 

     

    I'm not against any business model, I just prefer the model be appropriate for the game. 

     

    I am hoping ESO warrants pay to play. I'm hoping for a game with a great deal of polish and quality. I'm hoping for a game with a great deal of content and variety in content as well as a game that warrants extended play sessions for extended periods of time. I'm hoping for a game that offers a great deal of content and features in it's expacs. 

    I'm actually fine with ESO using a buy to play business model, I just want it to be a game that warrants a pay to play business model. Though if it is, that is the model they will likely use. 

     

    As far as free to play goes, theres an issue there. The IP and the developer behind the game has potential to bring in a great deal of players, especially if the game is well done. Its going to require a large number of players buying off of a cash shop to make the game profitable. The larger the player base the more people they need spending money. A game like PS2 can have the type of cash shop it has because its appeal isn't excessive. They don't need as many paying players to support the game. For a game like ESO to be profitable with a free to play model it would require a great deal of funneling players to the cash shop which would simply detract from the game. 

  • superniceguysuperniceguy AnchorheadPosts: 2,278Member Uncommon

    Subsciption with Lifetime Subscription option.

    If it offereed LT sub I would take it.

  • IstavaanIstavaan CorkPosts: 1,350Member
    If you don't pay your 15$ a month you can't win.
  • NitthNitth AustraliaPosts: 3,684Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Istavaan
    If you don't pay your 15$ a month you can't win.

    Your not making any sense with your abstract quotes now. Can you put that into some context?

    image
    TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,912Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     

    Business-wise, you cannot go wrong with B2P and Cash Shop.

     

    Other than the fact that you're missing out on six to eighteen months of hundreds of thousands of players dropping $15 monthly on top of having paid for the box (in multi-levels as you suggested).

     

    That's a large pile of cash.  From there, do a TSW... drop the mandatory sub and crank up item shop, optional sub, and/or unlockable content.

     


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now turned Amateur Game Developer.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  Realm Lords 2 on MMORPG.com
  • NitthNitth AustraliaPosts: 3,684Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by safire312
    Pay as much, as u play, with cap payment methodBecause a player who plays 400 hours a month might end up paying more than the original $15 a month and if you base pricing off of that much playtime then most players would be paying little compared to before.I would suggest something like $0.25 an hour played per month up to say 60 hours and then it caps off at $15.

    That model is very popular in Asia. Interesting how it can work in Asia but not other places..

    image
    TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  • Ambros123Ambros123 Neverneverland, TNPosts: 877Member

    Having played all of F2P like LotRO and DDO, P2P like EVE and WoW, B2P like GW2 I can say I think B2P is the most preferred method. 

    People who say that P2P has more mature players as it limits the kiddos and asshats or that it ensures better quality content are smoking crack.  None of this is true from what I've seen,  In fact both F2P and B2P games I have seen much much higher maturity than WoW.   Then again that might be unfair comparison as WoW has that enormous popularity which is what attracts the asshats.  As far as quaity?  Cata and MoP.... need I say more?  GW2 is producing quality content as a non-sub game.

    In F2P games I feel that quality is where you'll see where it is lacking greatly.  Mostly my experiance is based of DDO.  DDO and Turbine are AUTROCIOUS when it comes to content, development, and just plain simple bug fixes.  Content is so stagnant it's ridiculous, then they rehash age old content that players can do blindfolded with epic levels instread of producing quality content like raids or adding a wide array of quests instead of the typical 3-5 quests that one can do in a few hours time.  Turbine produces a raid that is a mere fraction of a single raid that other MMOs produce on a major patch cycle while Turbine produces it on a paid expansion cycle time frame.  As for development... archery's severe gimpness that is ignored and the numerous year old promise of completing the enhancements that is repeatedly delayed...  And bug fixes... total incompetance as they always break more crap than they fix or how when they release stuff it is so god aweful bug ridden that it feels like an Alpha build.

    B2P I really think is what will replace the P2P format.  How many MMOs have successfully pulled a P2P format?  The vast majority get converted to B2P or more frequently F2P in desperation.  GW2 I think showed developers that B2P with a legitiment cash shop is a very sound buisness model and if not the most ideal.

    Now if the game is worth it I would definately pay a P2P game as 15 bucks is well worth it if it keeps my attention.  The problem is that no game has ever really kept my attention span for an extended period of time.  Cata lasted me a month or 2 before calling it quites.

  • IstavaanIstavaan CorkPosts: 1,350Member
    Originally posted by Nitth

     


    Originally posted by Istavaan
    If you don't pay your 15$ a month you can't win.

     

    Your not making any sense with your abstract quotes now. Can you put that into some context?

    You know exacly what i am talking about. it doesn't matter what way you pay if you don't pay you can't win, and this is true for p2p as much as it is for f2p.

  • FearumFearum Cinnaminson, NJPosts: 1,166Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nitth

     


    Originally posted by safire312
    Pay as much, as u play, with cap payment method

     

    Because a player who plays 400 hours a month might end up paying more than the original $15 a month and if you base pricing off of that much playtime then most players would be paying little compared to before.

    I would suggest something like $0.25 an hour played per month up to say 60 hours and then it caps off at $15.


     

    That model is very popular in Asia. Interesting how it can work in Asia but not other places..

     I would love that pay model.

  • PyrateLVPyrateLV Las Vegas, NVPosts: 1,096Member Common
    Originally posted by Fearum

     There are plenty of F2P games that these free loaders can enjoy, why do they need another?

    There are plenty of shallow, banal Themepark games that you all can enjoy. Why do we need another?

    See what I did there?

    Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
    Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
    Playing: Skyrim
    Following: The Repopulation
    I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
    ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)

  • Ambros123Ambros123 Neverneverland, TNPosts: 877Member
    Originally posted by superniceguy

    Subsciption with Lifetime Subscription option.

    If it offereed LT sub I would take it.

    TSW LTers will vastly disagree.  LT subs are retarded as one can never know the future of a game.

  • BetaguyBetaguy Halifax, NSPosts: 2,590Member
    Originally posted by superniceguy

    Subsciption with Lifetime Subscription option.

    If it offereed LT sub I would take it.

     I always chuckle when people say "Lifetime subs" hahaha. That is a garaunteed indication the game is a failure.  Don't say Lotro, TSW, or any other Lifetime sub game is successful because they are not.  Those games are barely hanging on.

    image

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,197Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nitth

    Originally posted by Istavaan
    If you don't pay your 15$ a month you can't win.

    Your not making any sense with your abstract quotes now. Can you put that into some context?

    Not to speak for him, but I have an outlook that comes to a similar conclusion.

    The cash shops and box fees in sub-free models are often criticised as "pay to win".  P2W is one of those horrible idiotic marketing slogans like "cloud" and "web 2.0" that don't really mean anything or rather are so subjective as to be useless for communicating a point.

    From my perspective every game is pretty much pay to win.  In other words you must pay at some point or you will be restricted from content, restricted from leveling, held back, or excluded.  The fact is to enjoy any game to its fullest potential you will need to spend money.  Don't pay the sub - you're out of luck.  Don't buy the content in the cash shop - you're out of luck.  The money people have it over those that don't regardless of the model.

    Sub-free games have mechanisms in place to encourage cash shop visitation (as do most sub-locked games now).  Games locked behind sub-only paywalls also have mechanisms in place (raid locks, limited dungeon token rewards, time sink grinds) to encourage you to sub longer.

    The difference, to me, is that in a sub-free game the money I spend can be enjoyed without having to spend more money or losing access to the stuff I buy (content, items, boosts, cosmetics, etc).  In a sub-locked game I only get to enjoy what I've spent if I'm spending more (keeping my sub active).

    I stopped enjoying Rift last fall.  My sub expires this March/April.  All the money I've spent ($300) on the game will be useless and restricted under the current model.  Not only that but the sub time I've paid for is wasted because I'm not playing the game a lot anymore.

    In the end it all comes down to a couple factors.  What is the total cost of game play and what do I get (or lose) if I pay or stop paying.  So far all my sub-free games have been less expensive than my sub-locked games and I'm getting as good of an experience or better.  Sorry that was long winded.

  • NitthNitth AustraliaPosts: 3,684Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Fearum
    Originally posted by Nitth   Originally posted by safire312 Pay as much, as u play, with cap payment method   Because a player who plays 400 hours a month might end up paying more than the original $15 a month and if you base pricing off of that much playtime then most players would be paying little compared to before. I would suggest something like $0.25 an hour played per month up to say 60 hours and then it caps off at $15.
      That model is very popular in Asia. Interesting how it can work in Asia but not other places..
     I would love that pay model.

    In a perfect world i suppose the more payment models available to the consumer the better.

    But i guess as someone else said, Developers and publishers already know in advance how much overhead they need to make up for and how much profits need to be produced in a given time frame.

    image
    TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  • SlampigSlampig Chantilly, VAPosts: 2,376Member Uncommon

    I went with a sub model. I just do not like being nickle and dimed for every little thing. Extra character slot? Pay up please, need more bank space or another backpack? Open that wallet... Hate that sh*t.

     

    As an aside, is it possible  for developers to have their F2P model and include a sub model, like most games do, BUT, make it so the person that subs has the game as it was before the F2P? If I am paying a sub I want it to be like it was, I don't want to get my Game Company Bucks each month to spend in the game store, I don't want ads in-game, just giveme the game I am paying for like it was before all this F2P BS came about...

    That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!

  • Unknown23Unknown23 GothenburgPosts: 47Member

    Subscripton/p2p.

     

    Cash shops are a cancer.

  • FearumFearum Cinnaminson, NJPosts: 1,166Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ambros123
    Originally posted by superniceguy

    Subsciption with Lifetime Subscription option.

    If it offereed LT sub I would take it.

    TSW LTers will vastly disagree.  LT subs are retarded as one can never know the future of a game.

     I don't think I would ever buy a LT sub, what happens if 1 year into the game they change a major core gameplay element you don't like so the game would be ruined for you? MMO's are always changing so a LT sub really doesnt make sense. 

  • Ambros123Ambros123 Neverneverland, TNPosts: 877Member
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    For me, the player, I'd much rather see a game released worthy of charging a sub with no cash shop.

    But you asked us to "think like Zenimax." Business-wise, you cannot go wrong with B2P and Cash Shop. B2P is all the rage now so people will accept that it is great from the get-go. You avoid going F2P from a sub when your game fails to keep the players' interests, so all looks fine from the outside when numbers start to drop. Also, creating cool items for the cash shop is much more profitable than creating actual content, which is now a by-product just to keep players playing so they may pay more. For box sales, I would create about 4 tiers of boxes to make people with money feel special. I would tack on some in-game assets for those who pre-purchase.

    After all, the whole reason I (being Zenimax) am creating TES:O is for cash, right?

    P2P games also utilize the cash shop, everyone utilizes the cash shop.  I remeber back when I would be a pet on WoW's anniversery.  Now if you want a spiffy pet or mount then you have to pay via a cash shop unless you can earn it in game.  Long ago companies where like "Hey.... we can stop rewarding our players for free and put these cosmetics in a cash shop and people will buy it!"

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,197Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Betaguy
    Originally posted by superniceguy

    Subsciption with Lifetime Subscription option.

    If it offereed LT sub I would take it.

     I always chuckle when people say "Lifetime subs" hahaha. That is a garaunteed indication the game is a failure.  Don't say Lotro, TSW, or any other Lifetime sub game is successful because they are not.  Those games are barely hanging on.

    They're no less successful than Rift is which also seems to barely hanging on.

  • NitthNitth AustraliaPosts: 3,684Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by Nitth Originally posted by Istavaan If you don't pay your 15$ a month you can't win.
    Your not making any sense with your abstract quotes now. Can you put that into some context?
    Not to speak for him, but I have an outlook that comes to a similar conclusion.

    The cash shops and box fees in sub-free models are often criticised as "pay to win".  P2W is one of those horrible idiotic marketing slogans like "cloud" and "web 2.0" that don't really mean anything or rather are so subjective as to be useless for communicating a point.

    From my perspective every game is pretty much pay to win.  In other words you must pay at some point or you will be restricted from content, restricted from leveling, held back, or excluded.  The fact is to enjoy any game to its fullest potential you will need to spend money.  Don't pay the sub - you're out of luck.  Don't buy the content in the cash shop - you're out of luck.  The money people have it over those that don't regardless of the model.

    Sub-free games have mechanisms in place to encourage cash shop visitation (as do most sub-locked games now).  Games locked behind sub-only paywalls also have mechanisms in place (raid locks, limited dungeon token rewards, time sink grinds) to encourage you to sub longer.

    The difference, to me, is that in a sub-free game the money I spend can be enjoyed without having to spend more money or losing access to the stuff I buy (content, items, boosts, cosmetics, etc).  In a sub-locked game I only get to enjoy what I've spent if I'm spending more (keeping my sub active).

    I stopped enjoying Rift last fall.  My sub expires this March/April.  All the money I've spent ($300) on the game will be useless and restricted under the current model.  Not only that but the sub time I've paid for is wasted because I'm not playing the game a lot anymore.

    In the end it all comes down to a couple factors.  What is the total cost of game play and what do I get (or lose) if I pay or stop paying.  So far all my sub-free games have been less expensive than my sub-locked games and I'm getting as good of an experience or better.  Sorry that was long winded.


    I hear what your saying, But in reality all 3 models are the same in the regard that if companies don't make money and shutdown, You will never see your characters and items again?


    image
    TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  • NitthNitth AustraliaPosts: 3,684Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Ambros123
    Originally posted by superniceguy Subsciption with Lifetime Subscription option. If it offereed LT sub I would take it.
    TSW LTers will vastly disagree.  LT subs are retarded as one can never know the future of a game.

    Speak for yourself.

    image
    TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  • itgrowlsitgrowls newport news, VAPosts: 2,951Member

    Well I can see there's no shortage of "p2p zombie" idiots commenting on these forums, apparently 2012 hasn't taught them a single thing.

    Not only does P2P often crash as we've seen time and time again in 2012 but it certainly does NOT guarantee quality people as we've all seen from games like WoW. So My suggestion to those who are holding onto that dream in this continuing economic crisis is, dream on.

    "The elitism is strong with this one", is what came to mind when I saw the first few comments on this thread. 

    For all those who want another P2P marvel let me remind you of the last one we had, "May the force be with you". Yeah we saw how well that went didn't we, and please please don't insult our intelligence by suggesting it's not due to the payment model.

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