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F2P is not a sell out or Bad

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  • GruugGruug Chillicothe, ILPosts: 1,311Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by VoreDock

     

    I am sick of all you people saying free to play is a sell out or a bad

     

    Tera , SWTOR , Aion  all for teas games went  F2P for one reason  to  give  sub players more people to play with

     

    All had   good numbers but Dev’s can’t justify a games life to publishers on anything less than great numbers

    So F2P was added  you can still sub and many do

     

    F2P is a good thing after all without it publishers like EA would kill games and even the sub players would be left out

     

    Or have we all forgot SWG   (Star Wars Galaxys )

     

    Actually, there are plenty of publishers that CLAIM that f2p has been great for their games. In fact, we really do not know. We know that many people THINK that because something says "free" in the label that they are getting all they can out a game without paying. OR, they are willing to play a watered down version of the game simply to avoid paying. The problem is, that for most of these so-called f2p play games, you will not get much for what you DON'T pay for.

    Let's party like it is 1863!

  • thinktank001thinktank001 oasisPosts: 2,027Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    So, your stance is that MMO gamers are more gullible than any other consumer, correct? Or are you saying they have a gaming addiction?

    One of the two has to be true in order for your assertion to be correct. Are you saying MMO gamers, spenders and free players alike, are gullible or addicts?

     

    See, you either didn't think your response through or you have an extremely low opinion of MMO gamers, as your argument is based on them being a collective bunch of idiots. Except you, of course.  Otherwise your argument falls apart, as every other entertainment seeker on the planet will take part in a voluntary entertainment exercise as long as they find it fun. If they don't find it fun, they stop doing it.

     

    Are you now going to contend that they really aren't finding it fun and they are just tricked into thinking they are having fun?

     

     

    You are trying too hard to twist my words.   All I was stating is that developers have to design their systems so that paying players have an advantage.

     

     

  • GdougGdoug Washington, DC, DCPosts: 13Member
    Originally posted by HeroEvermore
    Meaning your game is just not good enough to keep a monthly fee. Games like FFXI, WoW and many others are good enough to keep a monthly fee. That is my belief.

     

    Except there are free to play games far more successful than subscription.

    If companies like EA, Activision, etc. knew how to do F2P, they'd switch. They don't, so they use the older, crappier subscription model.

    Gdoug, currently playing Threshold RPG (role playing required MUD)
    http://www.thresholdrpg.com

  • liammozzliammozz liverpoolPosts: 1Member

    from what i have seen ftp is a mugs game take SWTOR 

     

    to unlock everything  it costs 7160 cc thats not including WZ, FP and OP's weekly access thats ruffly $65 upfront then its

     
    Weekly Pass: Flashpoints 240
    Weekly Pass: Space Missions 240
    Weekly Pass: Operations 240
    Weekly Pass: Warzones 240
     
    so if you wanted to do all 4 it would cost you 3840cc wich works out $40 a month lol 4x the sub or if you only did 2 of them $20 a month lol 2x the sub 
     
    also as a sub you get 500 cc a month so knock off $5 from my monthly fee and am paying $4.99 a month for all of the above
     
    TL;DR
     
    ftp = being bent over and shafted
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,643Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by thinktank001
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    So, your stance is that MMO gamers are more gullible than any other consumer, correct? Or are you saying they have a gaming addiction?

    One of the two has to be true in order for your assertion to be correct. Are you saying MMO gamers, spenders and free players alike, are gullible or addicts?

    See, you either didn't think your response through or you have an extremely low opinion of MMO gamers, as your argument is based on them being a collective bunch of idiots. Except you, of course.  Otherwise your argument falls apart, as every other entertainment seeker on the planet will take part in a voluntary entertainment exercise as long as they find it fun. If they don't find it fun, they stop doing it.

    Are you now going to contend that they really aren't finding it fun and they are just tricked into thinking they are having fun?

    You are trying too hard to twist my words.   All I was stating is that developers have to design their systems so that paying players have an advantage.

    Rather different stance than your original statement, but let's roll with this one.

    Developers have to design their system so that the goods and services appeal to their target audience. An advantage does not necessarily have to be part of that equation. Now, if you're going to consider every last unlock or any content that a person could get which others don't have as an advantage, then how is this any different from an expansion? And if it is the same, isn't that an MMO thing and not a specifically F2P thing?

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • WittekerWitteker NY, NYPosts: 11Member

    Actually, F2P is future of MMO.  All the F2P games until now were trial and error to see what works.  F2P definitely works at the benefit of all, the game company, the players, if done right.  It is convenient for everyone.  P2P will lose out in the long run.  They seem to be winning, but they'll lose out.  All mmorpg games will become F2P.  Mark my words.

     

  • WittekerWitteker NY, NYPosts: 11Member
    To make further point, SWTOR, Aion, Lotro's model of F2P is done wrong.
  • OnomasOnomas Rock Hill, SCPosts: 1,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Witteker

    Actually, F2P is future of MMO.  All the F2P games until now were trial and error to see what works.  F2P definitely works at the benefit of all, the game company, the players, if done right.  It is convenient for everyone.  P2P will lose out in the long run.  They seem to be winning, but they'll lose out.  All mmorpg games will become F2P.  Mark my words.

     

    You honestly believe this?

    If your game sucks so bad you cant keep your subbers, making it free to play will not make your game better.

    Sure it adds a few thousand or million players, but they dont pay anything. Its not a success if you have 2 million players playing but only 5% paying.

    This arguement is old, people just need to really say what they are thinking. Fact is you either cant pay for a sub or wont because the game is not worthy of 30 cents a day. But you would play a gimped version of the game for free to entertain yourselves. Thats all you get is a gimped version. Restrictions out the butt, i would rather pay 30 cents and be free.

    If you and i played the same game and i paid the sub and you did not, you would never be on equal grounds as me at all. Future? No its more like a crutch to lure players in and hope they get some of you to buy from their cash shop.

     

    And there are still more subscribers in this market than f2p accounts and provide more income to the industry. With some good AAA games coming out soon that are subscription abased also...... i think your logic is flawed.

     

    And Aion has one of the most "free" games on the market lol, but its done wrong? 

  • WalterWhiteWalterWhite CardiffPosts: 394Member Uncommon

    Any MMO I have been subscribed to that has gone F2P, I have quit. Why? Because the overall gaming experince went downhill.

    Some I quit before due to the game being a load of rubbish ie SWTOR but other games I enjoyed like LotRO and AoC were not the same after the F2P conversions and I did try to like them but alas the worlds suddenly filled up with dicks and I cancelled my subs. Even trying them as a F2P game still didn't feel good and so now all my characters have been left to ruin.

    So after all these F2P MMO experiences I have told myself I shall never play another F2P MMO ever again. I would rather subscribe to WoW than play a F2P MMO as they are that bad imo. 

    image

  • WittekerWitteker NY, NYPosts: 11Member

    Wow, there are a lot of people who post.

    But when a P2P goes F2P, that already means it's not a good model.  It was not designed with F2P in mind.

    There are some things that need to be considered for F2P:

     

    1.  All content needs to be free.  No charging money for opening up zones or anything like that.

    2. You do not sell items that give advantage in game, except for time savings, etc., meaning you sell fluff, like cosmetic, pets, etc.

    3. The fluff needs to be also purchasable by game money.

  • WittekerWitteker NY, NYPosts: 11Member
    Originally posted by Onomas
    Originally posted by Witteker

    Actually, F2P is future of MMO.  All the F2P games until now were trial and error to see what works.  F2P definitely works at the benefit of all, the game company, the players, if done right.  It is convenient for everyone.  P2P will lose out in the long run.  They seem to be winning, but they'll lose out.  All mmorpg games will become F2P.  Mark my words.

     

    You honestly believe this?

    If your game sucks so bad you cant keep your subbers, making it free to play will not make your game better.

    Sure it adds a few thousand or million players, but they dont pay anything. Its not a success if you have 2 million players playing but only 5% paying.

    This arguement is old, people just need to really say what they are thinking. Fact is you either cant pay for a sub or wont because the game is not worthy of 30 cents a day. But you would play a gimped version of the game for free to entertain yourselves. Thats all you get is a gimped version. Restrictions out the butt, i would rather pay 30 cents and be free.

    If you and i played the same game and i paid the sub and you did not, you would never be on equal grounds as me at all. Future? No its more like a crutch to lure players in and hope they get some of you to buy from their cash shop.

     

    And there are still more subscribers in this market than f2p accounts and provide more income to the industry. With some good AAA games coming out soon that are subscription abased also...... i think your logic is flawed.

     

    And Aion has one of the most "free" games on the market lol, but its done wrong? 

    Yes, I do honestly believe this.  Any game that goes from subscriber to F2P is not done right.  F2P needs to be purely F2P from the get go.

  • WittekerWitteker NY, NYPosts: 11Member
    Originally posted by Scummyman

    Any MMO I have been subscribed to that has gone F2P, I have quit. Why? Because the overall gaming experince went downhill.

    Some I quit before due to the game being a load of rubbish ie SWTOR but other games I enjoyed like LotRO and AoC were not the same after the F2P conversions and I did try to like them but alas the worlds suddenly filled up with dicks and I cancelled my subs. Even trying them as a F2P game still didn't feel good and so now all my characters have been left to ruin.

    So after all these F2P MMO experiences I have told myself I shall never play another F2P MMO ever again. I would rather subscribe to WoW than play a F2P MMO as they are that bad imo. 

    Yep, those games that went from subscription to F2P is not done right.  Bad model.

  • NorseGodNorseGod Behind Enemy Lines, FLPosts: 856Member
    Originally posted by VoreDock

     

    I am sick of all you people saying free to play is a sell out or a bad

     

    Tera , SWTOR , Aion  all for teas games went  F2P for one reason  to  give  sub players more people to play with

     

    All had   good numbers but Dev’s can’t justify a games life to publishers on anything less than great numbers

    So F2P was added  you can still sub and many do

     

    F2P is a good thing after all without it publishers like EA would kill games and even the sub players would be left out

     

    Or have we all forgot SWG   (Star Wars Galaxys )

    How nice of those companies to give players more people to play with!

    Dude, it's about the money and only money. How come people can't figure out that when a "free" to play game makes more money than when it was a subsciption, it isn't really free? I know, I know, nobody here spends money on cash shops, bag slots, species unlocks, class unlocks, toolbar unlocks, quick travel, mounts, health pots, xp pots, armor, weapons, gear enhancements, etc etc. Ever. Right?

    Generally speaking, let's say those people who claim that they don't spend a cent on F2P games are telling the truth. Nobody I know will group with those people. They can't chat, trade, their armor and weapons are sub-par and generally worthless to a group, IF, they can even participate in group content such as instances. No thanks, I'm not carrying you through group content and wiping over and over because you're wearing restricted gear or you are level capped at 5 - 20 levels below the rest of us.

    The most a F2P "gamer" can pull off is playing all the solo content and then move on to the next F2P game. Which is fine. I've done it more than a few times. But, you don't see me bragging about how great F2P is. Why? Because it's restrictive and I can't afford to play F2P games.

    Censorship is intended to create an illusion that one side of the debate is correct and unopposed. Silence is not consent.

  • mrrshann618mrrshann618 Waseca, MNPosts: 227Member Uncommon

    As a parent , I LOVE f2p. Instead of me hearing that my kids want to sub to this game, and then that game, and then that game, and then paying for a sub that they do not want to play anymore.

    Now I can say, hey, you have "$X" a month, you can spend it on whatever game you like. Since those credits rarely dissapear you can build them (like an allowance) to earn what you want to unlock.

    Subs are for chumps plain and simple. I'll take free entertainment any day of the week.

    "Oh but it is NOT free!!!!!!!"

    Yes it is, it is free because I have the ability to NOT spend any money if I do not want to. In addition I can EASILY limit the amount of money I spend becuase I know how to be frugal with money. I can wait till next month and use my monthly alotment if I so choose, or I can not choose to spend any money that month and go to a movie instead, ALL while playing a free game.

    Play what you Like. I like SWOTR, Have a referral to get you going!
    -->  http://www.swtor.com/r/nBndbs  <--
    Several Unlocks and a few days game time to make the F2P considerably easier
  • FallguyArmyFallguyArmy Davenport, FLPosts: 80Member

    Ten or maybe even five years ago, I would've chosen F2P. But that was because I was young and without a job. Now that I do have money and have realized how expensive games are to make, I feel like F2P isn't necessarily the best option for a game developer/publisher. F2P tends to have a connotation of "cheap" and it also makes it looks like the game is at its wits end, a desperate move per se, to gain (or regain) players. I do believe that P2P is still a viable business model, but unfortunately with the overasturated market of MMOs out now, plus the fact that a majority of them suck and are of low quality to begin with, I can see why more people have become jaded and prefer not to pay to play. In other words, people do have money to subscribe (just look at how more people suddenly decided to pay monthly for SWTOR after it went F2P, ironically enough) and people will try to fit time in between their busy schedules so they can play if the game is fun and of high quality.

     

    On the other hand, F2P in itself isn't really a bad business model. It just depends on how publishers choose to implement it. For example, EA did a piss poor job with the stupid restrictions imposed on SWTOR's F2P, whereas En Masse Entertainment will not be restricting non-paying customers for TERA when it goes F2P. So, yeah, it depends on the publisher.

  • WittekerWitteker NY, NYPosts: 11Member

    Actually, the model I prefer is B2PF2P, meaning you at least need to buy the game to play the game.  Download for free, that's bad.  B2PF2P is best.  You buy the game, but no subscription.   If people are immersed in the game and feel that they want to contribute to the game, they will.  Also, if they want some fluff, and they don't want to work for it in-game, they can purchase with real money.

    Above model works best.

  • ragz45ragz45 rochester hills, MIPosts: 686Member Uncommon

    FTP has a stigna around it.  It's sterotyped as being full of trolls, children, and freeloaders with no support or customer service to back the game up.  Whether true or not is irellivant as percepetion is reality in marketing and buisness.  Aslo it doesn't help that MANY of the asain games being pushed on westerners are heavily P2Win & FTP.  

    Age of wushu is a perfect example.  One member of Goonsquad just droped 10,000 on in game gold to convert to silver to equip the guild.  Yes I didn't miss a zero there.

  • OnomasOnomas Rock Hill, SCPosts: 1,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by mrrshann618

    As a parent , I LOVE f2p. Instead of me hearing that my kids want to sub to this game, and then that game, and then that game, and then paying for a sub that they do not want to play anymore.

    Now I can say, hey, you have "$X" a month, you can spend it on whatever game you like. Since those credits rarely dissapear you can build them (like an allowance) to earn what you want to unlock.

    Subs are for chumps plain and simple. I'll take free entertainment any day of the week.

    "Oh but it is NOT free!!!!!!!"

    Yes it is, it is free because I have the ability to NOT spend any money if I do not want to. In addition I can EASILY limit the amount of money I spend becuase I know how to be frugal with money. I can wait till next month and use my monthly alotment if I so choose, or I can not choose to spend any money that month and go to a movie instead, ALL while playing a free game.

    You are still paying money. So if its money you are paying, an allowance............ how is that free? Just because you have the choice to pay this month or next its all of the sudden its free? No you still drop $$$ into the game. Free means dont pay a dime, ever. And you clearly said you do pay.

    And for your child a free game may be ok, but fo an adult we dont want gimped game, we have enough of those already. Restrictions and content based on a cash shop is not my idea of a good game.

     

    Seriously, who the heck cant afford 30 cents a day for unlimited entertainment this day in age? Even going to the movies will cost you 1-3 months in subs lol.

  • gracefieldgracefield BallymenaPosts: 275Member
    Originally posted by Witteker

    Wow, there are a lot of people who post.

    But when a P2P goes F2P, that already means it's not a good model.  It was not designed with F2P in mind.

    There are some things that need to be considered for F2P:

     

    1.  All content needs to be free.  No charging money for opening up zones or anything like that.

    2. You do not sell items that give advantage in game, except for time savings, etc., meaning you sell fluff, like cosmetic, pets, etc.

    3. The fluff needs to be also purchasable by game money.

     

    So, the game is entirely free to play and the only way the company is going to make any money is by selling cosmetic crap in its cash shop?

    Please, never go into business for yourself....

  • WittekerWitteker NY, NYPosts: 11Member
    Originally posted by gracefield
    Originally posted by Witteker

    Wow, there are a lot of people who post.

    But when a P2P goes F2P, that already means it's not a good model.  It was not designed with F2P in mind.

    There are some things that need to be considered for F2P:

     

    1.  All content needs to be free.  No charging money for opening up zones or anything like that.

    2. You do not sell items that give advantage in game, except for time savings, etc., meaning you sell fluff, like cosmetic, pets, etc.

    3. The fluff needs to be also purchasable by game money.

     

    So, the game is entirely free to play and the only way the company is going to make any money is by selling cosmetic crap in its cash shop?

    Please, never go into business for yourself....

    This shows your ignorance.  Above model makes the most money.  It needs to be B2PF2P though.  No subscription but pay for game and expansions.  People who play feel they are obliged to pay money to help the developers.  Play GW2, and you'll see what I mean.

  • WittekerWitteker NY, NYPosts: 11Member
    B2PF2P is the way mmorpg industry will go.  The other paths are obsolete.  It's like this.  The game has to be like second life.  The second life is very similar to first life.  You are free to live and explorer, but if you want some fluff, like a car or something, you pay for it.  But you can't purchase something that affects the game world so that you have unfair advantage bought with real life money.  That's not allowed. 
  • AticusWellesAticusWelles Beverly hills, CAPosts: 152Member
    I don't need MMORPGs to be happy, therefore I can afford to be incredibly picky about what MMOs I spend my time on. I don't care how much the F2P fans evangelize the business model, F2P and B2P is not and never will be an option for me.

    If all MMOs drop P2P, that's fine, there's a giant (real) world with a ton of hobbies just as eager for my money and attention, and most offer better rewards than a video game could ever hope to.

    If game publishers don't want my money, plenty of other industries do.
  • mrrshann618mrrshann618 Waseca, MNPosts: 227Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Onomas

    Seriously, who the heck cant afford 30 cents a day for unlimited entertainment this day in age? Even going to the movies will cost you 1-3 months in subs lol.

     

    but it isn't .30 a day. I play 5 games currently Wife plays 4, kid plays 4 as well.

    that isn't .30 a day it is $3.90 a day. so, lets see 3.90 X 30, that is $117 a month

    Lets compare an allocation of $10 a person,

    $117 > $30

    Yes I'm still spending money, but I'm not wasting $87 that we may or may not be able to play that month.

    ok, so lets see, I save $87 a month, for 12 Months, Gee I saved $1044 A year, you know what that buys? My daughter can easily go to a week of camp. I can get my car fixed on most problems and still have money left over. I can go to a movie instead. heck I can RENT a ton of movies instead.

     I can do some improvments on my house instead. I can use it to take my family on a car trip. So many things I can do with an extra $1000 a year. it isn't just $0.30 a day. Mostly because I cannot just pay by a day-to-day basis. If I could just plunk in $0.30 a day on the day's I wanted out of a month I'd have no problem.

    This is all EXTRA things I can do instead of sitting in front of a game.

    Play what you Like. I like SWOTR, Have a referral to get you going!
    -->  http://www.swtor.com/r/nBndbs  <--
    Several Unlocks and a few days game time to make the F2P considerably easier
  • OnomasOnomas Rock Hill, SCPosts: 1,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by mrrshann618
    Originally posted by Onomas

    Seriously, who the heck cant afford 30 cents a day for unlimited entertainment this day in age? Even going to the movies will cost you 1-3 months in subs lol.

     

    but it isn't .30 a day. I play 5 games currently Wife plays 4, kid plays 4 as well.

    that isn't .30 a day it is $3.90 a day. so, lets see 3.90 X 30, that is $117 a month

    Lets compare an allocation of $10 a person,

    $117 > $30

    Yes I'm still spending money, but I'm not wasting $87 that we may or may not be able to play that month.

    ok, so lets see, I save $87 a month, for 12 Months, Gee I saved $1044 A year, you know what that buys? My daughter can easily go to a week of camp. I can get my car fixed on most problems and still have money left over. I can go to a movie instead. heck I can RENT a ton of movies instead.

     I can do some improvments on my house instead. I can use it to take my family on a car trip. So many things I can do with an extra $1000 a year. it isn't just $0.30 a day. Mostly because I cannot just pay by a day-to-day basis. If I could just plunk in $0.30 a day on the day's I wanted out of a month I'd have no problem.

    This is all EXTRA things I can do instead of sitting in front of a game.

    Well your average family doesnt play 13 games at the same time lol. How do you have time as a family with 13 games, work, and other family duties. Thats just crazy. But thats your problem, not everyone elses. We shouldnt have to suffer through F2P garbage just so you can play 13 games. But you are spending 30$ a month, thats still not free nonetheless.

     

    I dont even have time to play more than 1-2 games tops, how the heck do you manage 13?

     

  • mrrshann618mrrshann618 Waseca, MNPosts: 227Member Uncommon

    it isn't that I play that many, it is that I have to PAY for that many if I want the ability to play anytime I want like in a f2p. I do not PLAY 13, I PLAY 5, but wife and kids still come from my pocket.

    In order to play a sub game I have to be subbed. that requires a minimum of $15 a month on a month to month basis (not a batch buy). I have some friends that play 1 game, but not others, so If I want to play with my friend Bob for a few days that he has off. I have to be subbed to his game.

     

    Oh wait, my wife and daughter hate that game, so If I want to play with them I have to sub for another $15. Darn, that is already $30 just to play with different people that I want to.

     

    unless you are suggesting that there should only be 1 game that people sub to and damn the rest?

    Play what you Like. I like SWOTR, Have a referral to get you going!
    -->  http://www.swtor.com/r/nBndbs  <--
    Several Unlocks and a few days game time to make the F2P considerably easier
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