Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Fuzzy Avatars Solved! Please re-upload your avatar if it was fuzzy!

Millions would like to see Vanilla WoW but NO !

13»

Comments

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,668Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by delete5230

    Why not, someone give me/us a real answer. 

    Not sure. If you present the source of your data, we could take a look at it and try to work from there.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • AvanahAvanah Posts: 945Member Uncommon

    You have a link to your fact of the million people?

    I'd like to see it...

     

    No?

     

     

    /thread

    TGIF...Thank God I'm Female

    "My Fantasy is having two men at once...
    One Cooking and One Cleaning!"

  • delete5230delete5230 Posts: 2,960Member Uncommon

    As someone had posted :

    - It would be an admission of undermining their current state, this is a good one. 

    - However, I would go with the marketing direction.  Level people faster to sell expantions and never murge dead servers, make people pay for transfers. Use the excuse that the game is too hard for my son to play. Instead of the F2P direction that many game developers are doing, just lower the price but never give them for free.

    Millions have walked away from this game. Sure their are still millions playing. But because of the nasty changes Blizzard had made the population could be so much higher. 

     

    I feel that Blizzard did make a big mistake. They could have gained the same results by making newer islands and diffriant races that way they could still sell expantions, because selling expantions is the real goal. Yes, I know they already made new races but players are outleveling them in two days, with fast leveling and a few chain quest they are short lived....They seem to insist on taking away the roll play and real life feeling. That is one that I and many others can't figure out, other than get your ass to endgame because you would have to have every expantion to do so.....Marketing !

  • ShadoedShadoed BirminghamPosts: 1,499Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by delete5230

    As someone had posted :

    - It would be an admission of undermining their current state, this is a good one. 

    - However, I would go with the marketing direction.  Level people faster to sell expantions and never murge dead servers, make people pay for transfers. Use the excuse that the game is too hard for my son to play. Instead of the F2P direction that many game developers are doing, just lower the price but never give them for free.

    Millions have walked away from this game. Sure their are still millions playing. But because of the nasty changes Blizzard had made the population could be so much higher. 

     

    I feel that Blizzard did make a big mistake. They could have gained the same results by making newer islands and diffriant races that way they could still sell expantions, because selling expantions is the real goal. Yes, I know they already made new races but players are outleveling them in two days, with fast leveling and a few chain quest they are short lived....They seem to insist on taking away the roll play and real life feeling. That is one that I and many others can't figure out, other than get your ass to endgame because you would have to have every expantion to do so.....Marketing !

    Again, you are just pulling out cliche' after cliche' and unproven (i use the word very lightly) statistics.

    Where is the proof that there would be 'millions' more players if the game had not evolved in any way what so ever? A lot of the players that left the game were turn and burn players who screamed through content within a month or two and then disappeared until the next expansion and did it all over again. That is my impression from the peak and fall you tend to see at every expansion.

    Have millions left the game, undoubtedly, but would the majority have left regardless of what Blizzard did to the game, very probably, but i have no proof either way other than my own meandering experience in the game.

    As for the faster levelling, it is great as a 'new' player to take an age to level your first toon, but when you are on your 10th or 20th character the last thing you want is to take 6-7 months to cap out so that you can continue to play the later game content. If you feel that you are levelling too fast, switch off your xp and enjoy it the way you want to, the options are there for you.

    So many complaints about what Blizzard have put in the game to make it 'easy' mode, but the vast majority is optional and you are welcome to play the game the way you want to play it if you can resist the temptation to use those changes. Don't buy a mount until L40, don't use flight points for areas you haven't been to, turn off your xp every other level for a time determined by you, don't use heirlooms, don't use dungeon LFG instead form your own guild with like minded players and do it the old way.

    For as much as some people complain about the changes that have been made, with a little will power and imagination you can make the game what you want it to be to a certain degree, but that is just too much effort for some.

    It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.

  • VannorVannor YorkshirePosts: 2,970Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Onomas
    Originally posted by Istavaan
    Originally posted by Vannor

    Like all 'fond memories' of games, if you played it again.. now.. it would probably ruin your fond memories.

    Vanilla WoW was good because, at the time, it was original and we'd never seen it before. It just wouldn't be the same after all we've been through.

    It's like the D3 issue. Everyone wanted it to be like D2.. but why arn't they playing D2 then? Because they probably tried it again and it's just shockingly bad compared to todays games. Memories are relative to the time they took place.

    What exactly was original about it?

    Love it when people say WOW was original. WOW stole more s**t from older mmorpg's than anything. Everyone says WOW clone this or WOW clone that, but they got their ideas from founding mmorpgs. WOW is a clone lol.

    It had a huge IP to start with, a good company, during that time 40% more internet users, and was fantasy. Because WOW almost failed with its rocky launch.

    Everything happened at the right time for WOW, now everyone tries to mimic it :/

    Everything is a clone of Pong by your logic. Well done. WoW did tons of stuff that was never done in MMOs before. Visual skill trees being one example, basing an MMO on a well known IP from another genre being another... there are many more examples. It also felt and flowed completely differently to other MMOs. Saying WoW did nothing original is very naive.

  • KalestonKaleston TrinecPosts: 173Member

    I think vanilla wow would fail miserably. New generation of gamers would not like it at all. And old players... you know if you think about it seriously, you will find, that Molten core is incredibly boring and uninspired dungeon... BWL is not much better. AQ and Naxx are a bit better... but wow was so wonderful, because we were noobs and for many it was first MMO experience. Another thing is, content that was in vanilla would take about a year to beat for today's gamers (Im being generous here).

    As for Blizzard's view... I think the main problem is supporting such server. I'm sure pretty much everything starting with player databases and ending with tools for developers to work with server/client is VERY different. It would be quite difficult to assemble team, that will work with this ancient stuff. And don't be mistaken... people would still QQ and scream about bugs imbalances and what not.

  • kadepsysonkadepsyson sun prairie, WIPosts: 1,937Member
    Originally posted by delete5230

    Why not, someone give me/us a real answer.  

    Here's your real answer:

    Millions bought multiple expansion packs for the game.

    If suddenly the best and most populated servers were ones that didn't require any of those expansions pack that millions of people paid hundreds of dollars for, do you think they might be a little mad?

    There is your real answer.

    El Psy Congroo

  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghPosts: 4,946Member Uncommon
    Wow vanilla was great in its time, but we have more sophisticated and complex needs now. Wow tbc style is a possibility, that's what Trion has delivered and built apon, but again revisiting old ground. The obvious answer is a wow tbc/wotlk gw2 style hybrid in a meaningful universe, themepark, but kill the rather dated model where schedules blocks of 3-4 hours of play is the only way to progress, and look at lateral/player skill based models.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • delete5230delete5230 Posts: 2,960Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Shadoed
    Originally posted by delete5230

    As someone had posted :

    - It would be an admission of undermining their current state, this is a good one. 

    - However, I would go with the marketing direction.  Level people faster to sell expantions and never murge dead servers, make people pay for transfers. Use the excuse that the game is too hard for my son to play. Instead of the F2P direction that many game developers are doing, just lower the price but never give them for free.

    Millions have walked away from this game. Sure their are still millions playing. But because of the nasty changes Blizzard had made the population could be so much higher. 

     

    I feel that Blizzard did make a big mistake. They could have gained the same results by making newer islands and diffriant races that way they could still sell expantions, because selling expantions is the real goal. Yes, I know they already made new races but players are outleveling them in two days, with fast leveling and a few chain quest they are short lived....They seem to insist on taking away the roll play and real life feeling. That is one that I and many others can't figure out, other than get your ass to endgame because you would have to have every expantion to do so.....Marketing !

    Again, you are just pulling out cliche' after cliche' and unproven (i use the word very lightly) statistics.

    Where is the proof that there would be 'millions' more players if the game had not evolved in any way what so ever? A lot of the players that left the game were turn and burn players who screamed through content within a month or two and then disappeared until the next expansion and did it all over again. That is my impression from the peak and fall you tend to see at every expansion.

    Have millions left the game, undoubtedly, but would the majority have left regardless of what Blizzard did to the game, very probably, but i have no proof either way other than my own meandering experience in the game.

    As for the faster levelling, it is great as a 'new' player to take an age to level your first toon, but when you are on your 10th or 20th character the last thing you want is to take 6-7 months to cap out so that you can continue to play the later game content. If you feel that you are levelling too fast, switch off your xp and enjoy it the way you want to, the options are there for you.

    So many complaints about what Blizzard have put in the game to make it 'easy' mode, but the vast majority is optional and you are welcome to play the game the way you want to play it if you can resist the temptation to use those changes. Don't buy a mount until L40, don't use flight points for areas you haven't been to, turn off your xp every other level for a time determined by you, don't use heirlooms, don't use dungeon LFG instead form your own guild with like minded players and do it the old way.

    For as much as some people complain about the changes that have been made, with a little will power and imagination you can make the game what you want it to be to a certain degree, but that is just too much effort for some.

    Again, you are controling this message board as you have been for the past few years, killing anything anyone would say that is negative about this game.

    Anyway, WoW is the joke of the mmorpg.com community. Just bring up World of Warcraft and use it as an example in any other game board or in general fourms, then sit back and see what you get !.....Then go out in public and ask real life people what they think of World of Warcraft.  If they do know about it they would most likley say something to the effect like " I know that game, it kind of sucks anymore ".

    Yet your pretending that everything is just great :)

     

     

  • DoogiehowserDoogiehowser ParisPosts: 1,873Member
    Originally posted by delete5230
     

    Again, you are controling this message board as you have been for the past few years, killing anything anyone would say that is negative about this game.

    Anyway, WoW is the joke of the mmorpg.com community. Just bring up World of Warcraft and use it as an example in any other game board or in general fourms, then sit back and see what you get !.....Then go out in public and ask real life people what they think of World of Warcraft.  If they do know about it they would most likley say something to the effect like " I know that game, it kind of sucks anymore ".

    Yet your pretending that everything is just great :)

     

     

    I am surprised you even bothered to reply to this thread. But since you did,  how about the source of these millions you were talking about? a lot of people are curious about your claims. 

    By the way he doesn't need to control these message boards. Things went out of control the moment you started pulling numbres out of thin air.

    As far as stopping and asking random people in public what they think about WOW...hahaha..i mean that was really desperate and funny really. You love making up stuff don't you?  lol

    "The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
    -Jesse Schell

    "Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
    -Luke McKinney

    image

  • ShadoedShadoed BirminghamPosts: 1,499Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by delete5230
    Again, you are controling this message board as you have been for the past few years, killing anything anyone would say that is negative about this game.

    Anyway, WoW is the joke of the mmorpg.com community. Just bring up World of Warcraft and use it as an example in any other game board or in general fourms, then sit back and see what you get !.....Then go out in public and ask real life people what they think of World of Warcraft.  If they do know about it they would most likley say something to the effect like " I know that game, it kind of sucks anymore ".

    Yet your pretending that everything is just great :)

     

     

    Where the hell does that come from? When did i or do i 'control' this message board?

    So what you are now saying is that the game as a whole is just a joke and no-one is allowed to have a pro-wow opinion as it is completely invalid because you say it is?

    If you had bothered to actually read the majoroty of posts in this thread, which if you remember rightly was about whether a Vanilla server was a good idea as 'Millions' wanted it and not about the overall quality of the game, you will have found that there is a pretty anti-vanilla server lean on the whole. I as much as anyone loved the Vanilla days, i just don't think you can recapture that experience by just bringing in a Vanilla themed server.....another 'opnion' you would have picked up had you actually bothered to read the replies to your own thread.

    If you just wanted to come on the boards and moan about wow, fine, job done. If you don't like other peoples opinions (especially players of the game itself) then don't post on the games forum. If it isn't the game you like anymore, fine, move on and leave it behind, that is the way life is i am afraid, things change, sometimes the way we like it, sometimes not, we just have to move on and find the next thing that fulfills that need and if you can't then you may need to talk to someone about that.

    It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.

  • Ramonski7Ramonski7 Aurora, ILPosts: 2,656Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Vannor
    Originally posted by Onomas
    Originally posted by Istavaan
    Originally posted by Vannor

    Like all 'fond memories' of games, if you played it again.. now.. it would probably ruin your fond memories.

    Vanilla WoW was good because, at the time, it was original and we'd never seen it before. It just wouldn't be the same after all we've been through.

    It's like the D3 issue. Everyone wanted it to be like D2.. but why arn't they playing D2 then? Because they probably tried it again and it's just shockingly bad compared to todays games. Memories are relative to the time they took place.

    What exactly was original about it?

    Love it when people say WOW was original. WOW stole more s**t from older mmorpg's than anything. Everyone says WOW clone this or WOW clone that, but they got their ideas from founding mmorpgs. WOW is a clone lol.

    It had a huge IP to start with, a good company, during that time 40% more internet users, and was fantasy. Because WOW almost failed with its rocky launch.

    Everything happened at the right time for WOW, now everyone tries to mimic it :/

    Everything is a clone of Pong by your logic. Well done. WoW did tons of stuff that was never done in MMOs before. Visual skill trees being one example, basing an MMO on a well known IP from another genre being another... there are many more examples. It also felt and flowed completely differently to other MMOs. Saying WoW did nothing original is very naive.

    Ummm sorry but Ultimate Online was the first to do that...just sayin.

    p.s. Oh! And Final Fantasy XI was second.

    image
    "Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."

  • L0C0ManL0C0Man Puerto OrdazPosts: 1,065Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ramonski7
    Originally posted by Vannor
    Originally posted by Onomas
    Originally posted by Istavaan
    Originally posted by Vannor

    Like all 'fond memories' of games, if you played it again.. now.. it would probably ruin your fond memories.

    Vanilla WoW was good because, at the time, it was original and we'd never seen it before. It just wouldn't be the same after all we've been through.

    It's like the D3 issue. Everyone wanted it to be like D2.. but why arn't they playing D2 then? Because they probably tried it again and it's just shockingly bad compared to todays games. Memories are relative to the time they took place.

    What exactly was original about it?

    Love it when people say WOW was original. WOW stole more s**t from older mmorpg's than anything. Everyone says WOW clone this or WOW clone that, but they got their ideas from founding mmorpgs. WOW is a clone lol.

    It had a huge IP to start with, a good company, during that time 40% more internet users, and was fantasy. Because WOW almost failed with its rocky launch.

    Everything happened at the right time for WOW, now everyone tries to mimic it :/

    Everything is a clone of Pong by your logic. Well done. WoW did tons of stuff that was never done in MMOs before. Visual skill trees being one example, basing an MMO on a well known IP from another genre being another... there are many more examples. It also felt and flowed completely differently to other MMOs. Saying WoW did nothing original is very naive.

    Ummm sorry but Ultimate Online was the first to do that...just sayin.

    p.s. Oh! And Final Fantasy XI was second.

    And there was also Star Wars Galaxies, that came out in 2003 (WoW was in 2004)

    What can men do against such reckless hate?

  • OnomasOnomas Rock Hill, SCPosts: 1,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Vannor
    Originally posted by Onomas
    Originally posted by Istavaan
    Originally posted by Vannor

    Like all 'fond memories' of games, if you played it again.. now.. it would probably ruin your fond memories.

    Vanilla WoW was good because, at the time, it was original and we'd never seen it before. It just wouldn't be the same after all we've been through.

    It's like the D3 issue. Everyone wanted it to be like D2.. but why arn't they playing D2 then? Because they probably tried it again and it's just shockingly bad compared to todays games. Memories are relative to the time they took place.

    What exactly was original about it?

    Love it when people say WOW was original. WOW stole more s**t from older mmorpg's than anything. Everyone says WOW clone this or WOW clone that, but they got their ideas from founding mmorpgs. WOW is a clone lol.

    It had a huge IP to start with, a good company, during that time 40% more internet users, and was fantasy. Because WOW almost failed with its rocky launch.

    Everything happened at the right time for WOW, now everyone tries to mimic it :/

    Everything is a clone of Pong by your logic. Well done. WoW did tons of stuff that was never done in MMOs before. Visual skill trees being one example, basing an MMO on a well known IP from another genre being another... there are many more examples. It also felt and flowed completely differently to other MMOs. Saying WoW did nothing original is very naive.

    Already done by previuos mmo's. Next? There isnt anything WOW has done another game of some type hasnt done. They may change the names, and concept but its all the same. Example:

    First game to base their MMO on a well known IP................. and star wars isnt a well known IP? SWG is your answer.

    And visual skill trees? WOW created this first? Are you sure? I would look that up if i were you. Its wrong.

     

    Visual worlds date back 35-39 years being first created. D&D was actualy created in the same year (1974) and is what many mmorpgs are based from.. Persistant worlds date back to the mid 80's. Single player games were the first to introduce persistant worlds and many of the features you claim WOW and many other mmorpgs have today.

     

    WoW developers even admitted to copying and changing things from the past long ago. I played WOW from release for awhile. Had nothing special and half the features that are "new" didnt come until much later.

  • JohnRJohnR Minneapolis, MNPosts: 12Member
    I am also a "Vanilla" player and know what I enjoy is the fantasy of combat, not the reality.  I don't care for the shambling hordes of zombies, xenoforms or other animated monsters and monstrosities to be too realistic.  Heck, if I want to experience bloody spectacle, I can watch a movie (or even at times just the nightly news reports.)  Vanilla is equally a flavor and while I and others may also enjoy Chocolate or Strawberry, etc. I think that just as with film, it would behoove the gaming industry to cater to the range of experience and flavors people enjoy, rather than uselessly insisting that "one size fits all" - it don't!!  Conversely if a venue such as WoW doesn't not wish to provide a greater range of flavors; well, that's their call; however as a consumer and customer I might shop else where! image
  • ThebigchinThebigchin LondonPosts: 9Member
    Originally posted by tordurbar
    Originally posted by ScaryMonk
    Originally posted by tom_gore

    Millions? Yeah I can also go and pull numbers out of my ass. You don't think Blizzard hasn't done any research about it? If they knew they would really get millions of players on vanilla servers AND keep them, they would open those in a heartbeat.

     

    It would undermine their game in its current state.  It would almost be an admission that they have taken the game in the wrong direction or dumbed it down, or at least the press would treat it as such.  It would be a PR disaster.   

    It would also risk losing revenue and activity from the those players who stick with it because it is wow, but never-the-less are underwhelmed by the direction it has taken.  An emptier world in their expansions is not good for business.  

     

     

    This is the best explanation of why Blizzard would never do this that I have seen. Right on the money!

    Exactly this.  

  • FdzzaiglFdzzaigl Somewhere in nowherePosts: 2,325Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nadia
     

    EQ2 didnt have feathers until later

    but the EQ2 quest NPCs did signal you by waving their arms or calling out to you verbally

    - which I miss

    Qeynos NPC: "Now where did I put that ledger?"

    "Now where did I put that ledger?""Now where did I put that ledger?""Now where did I put that ledger?""Now where did I put that ledger?""Now where did I put that ledger?""Now where did I put that ledger?""Now where did I put that ledger?""Now where did I put that ledger?""Now where did I put that ledger?""Now where did I put that ledger?""Now where did I put that ledger?""Now where did I put that ledger?""Now where did I put that ledger?""Now where did I put that ledger?""Now where did I put that ledger?""Now where did I put that ledger?"

    Me: "For the love of fuck, shut up."

    Qeynos NPC: ...  "Hello there adventurer! I seem to have mislocated my bussiness ledger, please help me find it!" .... "Now where did I put that ledger?""Now where did I put that ledger?""Now where did I put that ledger?""Now where did I put that ledger?""Now where did I put that ledger?""Now where did I put that ledger?"

    Me: "Here you stupid bitch, now shut up!"

    Qeynos NPC: "Thank you kind traveller! Have 5 copper!" .......

    "Now where did I put that ledger?""Now where did I put that ledger?""Now where did I put ...

    Me: "NYAARGHHGHGH  /suicide"

     

    ---

    That aside :p

    I loved vanilla WoW, it was probably my best MMOG experience all around. But I'm not sure if I would play a vanilla only server again tbh.

    The first time you do something it's fun and fresh, becauwe well... it's the first time. Every time after that, no matter how authentic the experience is reproduced, is repetition and therefore less exciting.

    And talking repetition: vanilla had quite a lot of that as well. I definitely don't fancy doing something like the AQ reputation grind again, or the grind for resistance gear etc.

    Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!

  • theAsnatheAsna AsnatownPosts: 321Member

     

    The things which would be most positive about a vanilla WoW would be the low numbers (mid 4 digit hitpoints), the talent trees, class quests and the old dungeons (e.g. black rock deeps, maraudon, uldaman, dire maul). I don't understand why Blizzard had to do such huge item resets with every add-on.

     

    I often replay older single-player games. The issue with an MMO would be: Would there be enough players? The questing in MMOs is a boring chore. The small group content (5 or 10 man) was fun for me. Unfortunately you can't bring the old times back. But if you could bring back the same old groups of friends together that'd be fun.

  • Lovely_LalyLovely_Laly genevaPosts: 734Member

    I think good idea is to make special servers:

    - one for vanilla people and just restore 1st WoW there and nothing else.
    - one for hardcore elite, with very challenging dungeons and raids.

    may be some more of these special servers, so all guys who cry about missing hardness, vanilla, could find their home.

    I guess it good idea to make different lvl of challenging for WoW players as guys who stay in game for like 5 years need to something harder then newcomer.

    Hope Blizzard will take consideration of this idea and get more happy customers.

    try before buy, even if it's a game to avoid bad surprises.
    Worst surprises for me: Aion, GW2

  • tawesstawess LkpgPosts: 2,535Member Uncommon

    Ok first of it is not like blizzard have a few floppy disks in a cabinet labeld WoW 1.0. So to make a  "true" classic server they would have to do a fair amount of reverse enginering. That cost money and developer time that could be spent on stuff like the next WoW expansion, Titan, the protoss expansion to SC2. Next chapter in the diablo saga... and so on and so forth.

     

    Secondly there are as many opinions on what "vanilla" WoW is as there are people who want it. Who will get the right of way?

     

    Third--- Here is blizzards reply


    We are aware of the fact that some people prefer the old pre-expansion content over the newer content that has been added to the game with the last two expansions, but despite this we still have no plans for opening any classic realms at this point in time.

    We also understand that some people would like to revel in nostalgia; however the developers are planning to keep the game moving forward as they want the game to continue to progress and evolve.

    We regularly see requests for us to open classic pre-TBC realms, or vanilla realms if you prefer, and lately we have also seen requests for pre-WotLK realms and even pre-Cataclysm realms. We have answered requests like these before saying that we have no plans to open such realms, and this is very much still the case today.

    We realize that some of you feel that World of Warcraft was more fun in the past than it is today, and we also know that some of you would like nothing more than to go back and play the game as it was back then. The developers however prefer to see the game continuously evolve and progress, and as such we have no plans to open classic realms or limited expansion content realms.
                                  

  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHPosts: 3,058Member Uncommon
    Nope sorry I don't live in the past.  When Vanilla WoW first came out I loved it because it was different, new and exciting but I could never go back to a tab target combat system, linear questing system and 2 faction PvP system.

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

13»
Sign In or Register to comment.