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Originally posted by Zekiah Originally posted by mistmaker why not just wait and let them show us a working game and if not, THEN you can call them whatever, sue them or wrhatever.
If MMORPG.com isn't going to be a place where information can be freely dispersed so that we, as gaming inudustry consumers, can make informed judgements about whether we want to support a project or not, then what's the point?
Personally, I highly value the information posted here, pro and con, about titles that I consider possible future purchases. I've saved a lot of money by reading information here. Censor and take that valuable information away and I go with.
Originally posted by mistmaker Originally posted by Zekiah Originally posted by mistmaker why not just wait and let them show us a working game and if not, THEN you can call them whatever, sue them or wrhatever.
I think the point is, the information was made available in the OP, and people can make their own decisions. When creating a game, its helpful to have something to show for your work, some experience in a particular field, or at least some money or backing that you worked for.
When it comes to Kickstarters, you are asking people to invest in your company... you won't find much information about a specific persons past on a kickstarter page, especially if their past doesn't have much to show on a prospective project.
If anything, this is a warning based on what we know.... what we DON'T know is how far the game is in production, or if the game is in production at all.... and believe me... mismanaging a budget is something even large software companies do, so to ask for crowdfunding on a project that A) Isn't far along Has little funding in the first place and/or C) Is already mismanaged in its initial stages - is a huge gamble that people should be aware of.
Originally posted by maskedweasel Originally posted by mistmaker Originally posted by Zekiah Originally posted by mistmaker why not just wait and let them show us a working game and if not, THEN you can call them whatever, sue them or wrhatever.
If anything, this is a warning based on what we know.... what we DON'T know is how far the game is in production, or if the game is in production at all.... and believe me... mismanaging a budget is something even large software companies do, so to ask for crowdfunding on a project that A) Isn't far along B) Has little funding in the first place and/or C) Is already mismanaged in its initial stages - is a huge gamble that people should be aware of.
Originally posted by mistmaker Originally posted by maskedweasel Originally posted by mistmaker Originally posted by Zekiah Originally posted by mistmaker why not just wait and let them show us a working game and if not, THEN you can call them whatever, sue them or wrhatever.
The links show lies (like the FB "likes" being paid for) and wanting to make a P2P game after getting money in hand (three times the original amount asked for...) adding new land when people who donated immediatley had the value of their land cut in half and lots and lots of shadyness.
Also, I think the word "investing" is ioncorrect. Lets call it what it is- A donation. OR paying for an unfinished product. Investment (IMHO) means that there is chance to "share in the wealth" of the company you are funding. That is not the case with KS.
-Anyhow, disagreement is fine. But the information itself is vital to allowing a consumer to make an informed descision as to the game itself and the credibility of the man controlling the money they will (potentially) donate.
Personally, I see Red Flagas everywhere- If you do not- That is your choice.
-Time will tell.
Originally posted by Jacxolope Originally posted by mistmaker Originally posted by maskedweasel Originally posted by mistmaker Originally posted by Zekiah Originally posted by mistmaker why not just wait and let them show us a working game and if not, THEN you can call them whatever, sue them or wrhatever.
oh, i do, i do. but i wouldnt start a hate campaign. informing is ok though.
its still possible that they deliver a perhaps good game. having weaknesses or even lying if unfortunately a common thing in the gaming industry and in the whole life. not everything is to do harm
Originally posted by Aeonblades Thanks for all the links, this guy is a crook and has no idea how to handle the general public/gamers. Back this at your own risk, who knows this loose cannon will do next.
Thank you the community finally sees the guy as he truly is. Ive been getting posts deleted for months trying to explain it.
You may love the project, You may love the idea of the game but you do not give a loose cannon with only an idea like this money so he can come threaten and ban people that have paid him.
Its kinda sad he had to resort to his own forum where he can censor everything. I dont think hes intelligent enough to understand that any big game, any big project of any kind on the internet especailly mmorpgs and games will have both the crowd that will kiss your ass. It will also have the crowd that will point out every fallacy you make.
You need BOTH of these types of people for your game to be good. Its a good sign for this to happen. It is absolutely rediculous that jason has ran to his forum where he bans anyone that brings up this at all, or questions him at all.
First of all its rediculous that hes censoring opinions he doesnt like but the worse part about it is he doesnht even know hes hurting his game by doing it (other then the obvious horrible PR reputation). You need both of these groups for your game to improve. You cant just rely on the people you have convinced to kiss you ass. You will get a shit product as there is no critizism.
Ah well.. at least this trainwreck has finally been brought to light.
Originally posted by greenreen I'm seeing lessons to be learned here. #1. Your past does not vanish, especially if you post the details of it on the internet. #2. You can't defend what doesn't exist. If your game isn't complete, you don't have many legs to stand on when you try to prop it up when your team members are green. ... (shortened for readability) Lots of this seems like basic internet usage but I thought I would try to define what I was seeing. I expect one day to be running my own game so this for me is a display of things to learn :P GreenGreen sums it up nicely. If you just stick to your enthusiasm for the game, your vision, artwork and plan then you will not have to deal with people calling you out on the past experience that you made up. Especially if it has nothing to do with your Project. I still don't understand why he told anyone that he owned a record label. It does not add to your credibility as game designer and certainly not as manager if it turns out to be a webpage for a college band. ...still baffled. On another note, i am still missing a Mission statement and full feature list on their Webpage. Anyone have that information since i can't seem to find it anywhere.
Originally posted by Venger My opinion take it or leave it, means very little to me. Am I a GM backer? Yes. Why? Well because I am sick of the same old same old and I believe in the vision that the GM team has. Is it a risk? Yep, but the time has come to put up or shut up. Do I care how the GM team builds the game? Absolutely not. As long as I have a good product to play in the end I could care less if the build it themselves or buy bits and pieces and put it together. Do I expect changes from conceptual design and actual design? As a person that takes concepts, puts designs on paper, and then ends up in the field dealing with the field conditions I fully expect there to be changes sometimes drastic changes. Do I care that Jason lost his cool. Nope. With the professional trolls on this site someone that has passion about his vision getting beat on and legal double talk I completely understand it. The team is passionate about their vision. There are to many arm chair designers and experts on everything on this site to take most of the drama seriously here.
Hmmm- Isnt that exactly what jason Appleton is? An "Armchair Designer and expert at everything" who is now using other peoples Money and changing everything up now that Money is in hand?
I think any of us here could do the same- Some of us are also "game designers" and "idea guys" who first want a solid design before asking for money. I too could cut and paste, pay for facebook likes, lie and hype and promise the World. I too could promise a F2P game which does all and then (once getting 90K) say "oops, my bad..Going to need a Monthly with that"
-That is called Shady in my book and folks have a right to know.
Some of us also want our projects on KS and with all the scamming (and potential scamming) lies, etc...People will have been burned too many times before we are ready. Jason (evidently) wasnt ready.
EDIT: -But as you said- Its your right to spend your money however you wish (and everyones)- You can throw it out the window for all I care (and I think you have, in this case) but time will tell. Its our right to try and inform people of what we know, suspect and have seen.
Originally posted by Venger Is it a risk? Yep, but the time has come to put up or shut up.
I just don't think this is right guys.
People don't build mmorpgs unless they are gamers. I would rather these guys try than get another clone from one of the AAAs.
This guy is more like us than them.
Originally posted by bcbully I just don't think this is right guys. People don't build mmorpgs unless they are gamers. I would rather these guys try than get another clone from one of the AAAs. This guy is more like us than them.
..Did you read all the links and closed threads?
This isnt just a "Lack of experience" this is a "Bait and switch" and a ton of misrepresentation and lies. This is about taking 90 thousand Dollars selling a product and then saying the product folks "invested in" is not feasable and it must be done differntly (and rquires more money)
-This is about misrepresentation , not just lack of experience.
Originally posted by RPGForever Originally posted by Venger Is it a risk? Yep, but the time has come to put up or shut up.
Well I don't think anyone else should be risking my money so I'm pretty sure I was taking about myself. I thought that was pretty clear about that. Apparently not.
Originally posted by Jacxolope
No an arm chair designer is someone who sits on their ass and shots at the rafters how they could do better. Jason is at least trying.
When you get your project up on KS let me know and I'll check it out. The rest of your post I'm not going to waste my time with.
Originally posted by Venger Originally posted by Jacxolope
-Oh, my project will be awhile (but there are screenshots I have posted - Real ones- If you care to find them in my posts). I guess the difference is that I am not a profesional and am not biting off more than I can chew. I am shooting for a 2D RPG (not MMO) since I am self taught and have an actual Job which demands much of my time. The last thing I want to do is opverpromise, underdevelop , take peoples money and change things and possibly have nothing to show at the end.
-I will not place my project on KS until I know I can finish it in the manner promised.
Right now I am working with an Artist (since my Art is pretty crappy and is 'placeholder') to redo enough of the assets to make a fully functional demo. Then I have to decide (based on how long the Demo takes) whether in fact it can be finished and is worth it to do so.
-But see, this isnt about me (really) or anyone else for that matter. I know my limits (most do) and will not take a dime until I am sure I can manifest what is promised and in a quality way. At this point I am unsure if its even possible and I have a "good name" that I want to keep and do not qwant to be associated with scams and such.
-Jason is an Armchair Developer with less knowledge than myself- He just took 90 thousand dollars and then changed the rules- I am an "armchair developer" who is going to be looking at a FAR Lower amount , with rules which will not change and a project I have the capabilities to complete- If I am have the slightest hesitation that I am unable to do what I say- I will not be on KS or look for any other funding and will just use this experience to "learn".
Even my "Artist" is a local Tatoo Artist who has never worked in game development (but is damn good) and is currently learning to animate sprites. We are total amatures and self taught and may not have the capabilities to produce anything worth buying- But we are alsp honest with ourselves and know our limits.
EDIT: The quickest I imagine we will have a Demo will be 6 months or so. I will keep you posted though.
Originally posted by Venger Well when you get something I'd love to check it out. Again the rest I don't agree with you but I make it a practice not to argue opinions with someone that is emotional about a subject because nothing productive will come of it.
The "emotional" ones seem to be Applegate and followers.
I/We were merely pointing out lies and inconsistincies. The fact is a certain thing was promised before taking a dime, now that more money has been recieved (than originally asked for) he/they have changed everything. IMHO a "contract" of sorts happened upon the first dime recieved.
-The rest was just pretty funny (like the threats and such)
-Absoulutley I will be pimping the Hell out of my game if and when I know its really feasable. Right now it looks terrible =P
But yes, we can agree to disagree. frankly I hope this all works out (for the people who put up money like yourself)- Its a cool idea. A modern UO would be a blessing since I have all but given up on MMOs these days. =/
This guy has a point.
Originally posted by RPGForever Originally posted by Venger Well when you get something I'd love to check it out. Again the rest I don't agree with you but I make it a practice not to argue opinions with someone that is emotional about a subject because nothing productive will come of it.
When I begin asking for Money I expect srutiny, questions and people to dig into my past and review statements I have made. This is what has been done with gred Monger and jason Appleton. He isnt funding this himself but is asking for miney, has lied and exagerated his past and acted childish when called out on these things.
He has made promises, collected money and changed the rules mid-game.
Again, this isnt about me- My point in even bringing this up was the "armchair developer who thinks they are an expert on everything" statement (which is exactly what Appleton is)
He went from wanting to make an Ipod game to a full fledged 3D MMO to asking stupid questions on the Unity forum to collecting peoples money withing a very short amount of time- Then he ggot emotional when called out and threatened to sue folks (using KS Money) and then flat out threatened a Poster on this board.
-I am saying it now- There will be no game by April and alot of pissed off people who were burned... Look at MO (who actually sold stock rather than beg for cash- Stock which had the potential to gain in value) they had a far more experienced team, more money and far more time- You are being promised a UO inspired MMO which is going to be out in a few Months without so much as a video and a few screenshots of purchased assets.
People have a right to know.
Again, I am not a proffesional dev, I am not begging for your cash and I am not even sure its possible to make a fully functioning game (that works and is fun to play) - I am not making promised nor claiming a thing other than the fact that I am attempting to do something and I will be damn sure it can be done before asking for any money.
-If every KS project had this philosophy there would be far more people willing to pitch in and help developers.
This isnt about me, or anyone else but the one who has already broke promises after getting money, and seems like a scam artist and has been caught in lies, misrepresentaion and half truth. I fully EXPECT my (or anyones) words, internet postings and past to be scrutinized once asking to fund a game with other peoples money.
-You dont see the shadyness in anything listed? Fine. Others do and we have the right to discuss these things and warn others.
EDIT- I am trying to multi-task here and that post was a bit rambling.
I would never start a KS project in order to "make my game"- I guess my point is that "my game" (if and when I EVER reach that point) will be already "made" for the most part but with "placeholder" grahics and assets. Kickstarter would be used to replace those "placeholders" with assets of far superior quality, add music, better sounds and such... As someone (like myself and jason Appleton) who has Zero experience with game development, I do not want to "rip people" off. I do not want to make "promises" which I cannot fulfill nor do I want to bite off more than I can chew.
-Going from no experience to a full fledged MMORPG is something. But his "past" is out there, his postings out there, his lies are out there, his "changing of the rules" AFTER taking money IS OUT THERE. These things ALONG with no experience should be closely examined. He reminds me of a bad used car Salesmen. He has duped people out of almost 100K already selling something which (as he already has admitted) isnt going to be what he has said. he has doubled land parcels (effectivly making everyones parcel's worth half) and God only knows what he is going to do next. And this hurts everyone who ever hopes to use KS for additional funding.
Originally posted by Jacxolope Originally posted by RPGForever Originally posted by Venger Well when you get something I'd love to check it out. Again the rest I don't agree with you but I make it a practice not to argue opinions with someone that is emotional about a subject because nothing productive will come of it.
There is a HUGE difference between between the game being released in a few months like your saying and us saying that the ALPHA TEST is going to be in April. ALPHA TESTS are nothing more then testing key systems. It's NOT the full game and chances are the full world won't even be finished by then. It's just a chance for us to test some of our systems and Stress test our servers nothing more and nothing less.
Once we see how the Alpha goes we will be figuring out the Beta date then depending how that goes then we will decide on a Launch date. More then likely the release date is still a year away or possibly even more but we will be doing our best to get the game released as soon as possible.
No where did we ever say that the Game would be released in April!
Company OwnerMMO InteractiveGreed Monger
-My Bad for mistyping and misunderstanding.
I appologize for also spreading bad information- I had thought I had read that somewhere but upon looking closer I was mistaken (and badly, at that)
-That sounds much more realistic and honestly was one of my issues. I was thinking (again, mistakenly so-) that this was being rolled out in April. From drawing board to full fledged MMO in a few months.
Again, my mistake. For that I am sorry.
this is what i think too. at least he is trying. i guess he really wants to. hope it has continiuty