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Game engines that are probably the best for MMORPGs

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  • joshuahallsjoshuahalls Bloomington, ILPosts: 78Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ArChWind
    Originally posted by joshuahalls
    This is back from 2011 mind you, but was during the 30% royalty bit.  I don't recall anything changing since then beyond the seat counts as that would be a rather drastic change to EULA and just cannot be snuck in.   * We use Visa PlaySpan to provide 84 billing methods in 122 countries. They handle all the money. They handle the initial purchase of the subscription, and then using the same systems will handle charging your players. After financial transaction fees (credit card, mobile, facebook coins, paypal) you get 70 percent, we get 30 percent, and we have to pay all the costs for licenses and servers and bandwidth, so it's more like we get 12 percent, which all of a sudden feels like we are working way too hard for only 12 percent.  Obviously he is making numbers up there, but they pick up the infrastructure bandwidth cost and that is a rather variable number based on design choices and downloading of client data.

    Yes Josh that was stated but did you read the full contract? I remember this part and futher down is stil stated that you pay the bandwith cost. If you plan to make a free game and absorbe the bandwith cost then go right ahead.

    Several paragraphs later it again states a bandwith cost but no where does it state 12% BUT now tack on 12% +30% nd that is 42% of your revnue of which 52% has to pay the other developers and yourself.

    Josh, the only one making money in this is HE.

    Like I said you are one of the founders and only have to pay 10% and 12% then that is 22% which leaves you with a lot bigger profit margin.

     

    Yes and had talked to them about it as well when it was released as we were under another contract.  I haven't seen anything added about paying bandwidth/infrastructure costs and reread the license agreement as well (the latest one). I could be mistaken, but not seeing anything that would say otherwise.  Either way, a lot of great options out there now adays and make sure to get solid feedback and make sure to get your hands dirty with multiple products to get a solid evaluation of what is out there.

    Joshua Halls
    Co Owner-Lead Programmer The Repopulation

  • ArglebargleArglebargle Austin, TXPosts: 1,877Member Uncommon
    Threads like this should be required reading for anyone who starts to say, "I don't understand why developers  don't do this simple thing (X) that I want."

    If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  • KenFisherKenFisher Northwest, INPosts: 5,035Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Arglebargle
    Threads like this should be required reading for anyone who starts to say, "I don't understand why developers  don't do this simple thing (X) that I want."

    It's like building a space shuttle without blueprints, and finding out halfway through completion that your boss wants the interior rearranged and people don't really like the seat covers.

    At least that's how it seems to me.

     


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  When I don't understand, I ask.  Such is not intended as criticism.
  • asmkm22asmkm22 Anchorage, AKPosts: 1,788Member
    Originally posted by ArChWind
    Originally posted by joshuahalls
    There technically isn't an "MMO Engine" there is a graphics renderer and then a collection of many tools and systems to turn a multiplayer game into an expansive persistant online game.  People sometimes tend to think this game or that game failed so it must be Hero Engine, it must be Unity, it must be Cryengine, etc.  All 3 of those engines used properly and more importantly used toward their strengths can make very successful games.  If you want 400 people in one spot, you have design your game content from the ground up to support that style of play otherwise you are not going to get that.  A few distinct choices in design and that number gets cut down drastically and is design choice more so than an engine limitation.  Not to say that some engines might be better at it from a technologial standpoint, but they aren't as far off as most people want to think. Obviously, a little bias toward Hero Engine as that was the path we chose and would chose it again even with all the alternatives out there now (would probably still evaluate some of the new ones and didn't get to dig into esenthel much as it was fledging at the time), but at the end of the day building an MMO is an insanely complex project and building the toolset from scratch even more so.  Having a something like BigWorld or Hero to take care of some of the more complex parts is helpful and you can spend your time on development versus building the toolset. As far as Hero goes the 30% is a tad steep, but as mentioned it does include server hosting/support fees as well so those costs are inclusive as part of that so it brings that number down a bit as you would normally have to pony up that money for the instrastructure.  We design our world in a grid design as their seamless support works fairly well for that, but we do it in a slightly different way than most people are doing it as we have scripts that automate it making the process fairly quick and can theoretically keep expanding the size and scope of the world out as far as we needed.  BigWorld when we evaluated it was restricted to 8-10km in a single heightmap even though it was chunked.  That might be old news now of course as everything is constantly moving forward and updating.  From a collaborative standpoint I haven't seen anything like it out there right now and was one of the major aspects that allows for rapid development as there is no nightly builds or fighting with repos to deal with.  Both were pretty solid products though, but not something you just jump into and expect to have a shovel made MMO ready to go. That being said, the options available now compared to 4 or 5 years ago is night and day and it will be interesting to see what is available in another 4 or 5 years.

    You're one of the lucky ones Josh, you bought the engine at a higher price so you are not going to get hit very hard 10%  but for the people comming into HE the 30% pluse the bandwidth make it lower on my listing. It is a fantastic engine but I think end costs are a bit to steep and for my project it would not coorporate. :).

    30% isn't that bad.  They handle payment, distribution, and server hosting.  those three combined aren't exactly free under normal circumstances.  For a game that's hoping to attract maybe 50k or 60k people, for example, it makes very little sense to go out and spend a bunch of money on servers and a datacenter location, as well as find a payment portal who can handle payment for you (at a cost of course).

    Hero Cloud just isn't targeted at games larger than that.  That's what they have the actual Hero source code for, where you can handle all of your own stuff and modify the server however you like, and not get hit with 30% fees.  Of course the upfront cost is much higher, like any other licensed engine.

    You make me like charity

  • GravargGravarg Harker Heights, TXPosts: 3,400Member Uncommon
    I would love to see a MMO that used the Frostbite 2 engine.  Battlefield 3 looks so realistic, it would be great in an MMO :)
  • WoopinWoopin LeedsPosts: 1,007Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by joshuahalls
    This is back from 2011 mind you, but was during the 30% royalty bit.  I don't recall anything changing since then beyond the seat counts as that would be a rather drastic change to EULA and just cannot be snuck in.   * We use Visa PlaySpan to provide 84 billing methods in 122 countries. They handle all the money. They handle the initial purchase of the subscription, and then using the same systems will handle charging your players. After financial transaction fees (credit card, mobile, facebook coins, paypal) you get 70 percent, we get 30 percent, and we have to pay all the costs for licenses and servers and bandwidth, so it's more like we get 12 percent, which all of a sudden feels like we are working way too hard for only 12 percent.  Obviously he is making numbers up there, but they pick up the infrastructure bandwidth cost and that is a rather variable number based on design choices and downloading of client data. Plus bandwidth is nowhere even close to $100 for a GB.  It isn't even that for a TB.  Maybe if you are talking 1 Gbit unmetered connection, but you would be consuming a lot of bandwidth at that point.

    Yeah the price was way high back in 2011 I would of never considered it back then. They have changed lots since then including the price plans. If you look at the prices back in 2011 wasn't a seat $300 - $1000 ? 

    image

  • WoopinWoopin LeedsPosts: 1,007Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by erictlewis
    Wow the hero engine, you got to be kidding listing that engine.  what a hunk of junk.   

    Just because SWTOR was a hunk of junk does not mean the engine is :) just saying form your post history.

    Also the fact The Repopulation is being made on HE with all them features the engine can not be that limited to make it a hunk of junk.

    image

  • freejackmackfreejackmack feeport, MSPosts: 378Member

    The Cryengine is the best imo. Entropia has been useing it for a while and it is impressive what youcan do with it.

     

  • mmoskimmoski plymouthPosts: 282Member
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Very interesting post. I am a Java developer and always wanted to build some simple persistant multiplayer game but the problem is that my skills are limited to Java and I have no 3D skills at all. And only Java engine I found which seems feasible is jMonkey but it has no multiplayer support :/

    http://www.lwjgl.org/

    Minecraft was made with it, you would need to learn some opengl, networking, and DB (unless you roll your own flat file).

    Nice list, really i dont think any engine is "best for mmorpgs", what should be the case is you find the engine that best fits your design, a key point is to understand a projects deveopment requirements and ensure the choosen engine will be able to achive the design goals.

    Me personally i prefer engines that are just wrappers really, its hard as a programmer trust "blackboxes" where you cant get into the source code or cant see what its doing, and could even end up writting alot of unreusable code,  yeah ok that means i have to roll alot of code, but if you follow good coding principles, you can make reusable code, and switch between graphic wrappers like no tomorrow, cc++ will never die.

  • PyrateLVPyrateLV Las Vegas, NVPosts: 1,096Member Common
    Originally posted by erictlewis
    Wow the hero engine, you got to be kidding listing that engine.  what a hunk of junk.   

    I take it from that statement that you are an experienced game developer who has extensive knowlege about the HE.

    Could you please list your credentials and the games you have developed??

    Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
    Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
    Playing: Skyrim
    Following: The Repopulation
    I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
    ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)

  • darker70darker70 stokePosts: 803Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by PyrateLV
    Originally posted by erictlewis
    Wow the hero engine, you got to be kidding listing that engine.  what a hunk of junk.   

    I take it from that statement that you are an experienced game developer who has extensive knowlege about the HE.

    Could you please list your credentials and the games you have developed??

    Yeah I'm waiting with baited breath for this reply,I would like to know from this intellectual insight his opinion on the transition to Hero Engine 2.0 or does he actually realise this I really doubt it.

    Btw brilliant post OP. 

    image

  • YamotaYamota LondonPosts: 6,593Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ArChWind
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Very interesting post. I am a Java developer and always wanted to build some simple persistant multiplayer game but the problem is that my skills are limited to Java and I have no 3D skills at all. And only Java engine I found which seems feasible is jMonkey but it has no multiplayer support :/

    Most of Multiverse server is primarly Java based. Some of it is Perl and python but the core engine is java/python. What I like about this design is it is entirely portable so a Sun System is a valid option. In other words the server can run on a main frame.

     Maybe you may find it useable. Much of the client is Python but if you have good skills you may be able to port it to Java.

    Well I looked at the Esenthel engine and it looks really interesting and since I just want to create a simple online game, and not a full fledged MMORPG, the limitations on network code is fine.

    However I am not sure how hard it is to learn C++ if you have 5 years of professional Java experience. Do you know?

    Also, how hard is it to import 3D models to use? Since I dont have any 3D modeling skills I would look at the many free models out there and possibly buy some simple one's as well.

  • stormseekazstormseekaz STL, MOPosts: 168Member

    Holy crap!!!  Finally a MMORPG.com user who actually knows his stuff about graphics and engines!  You sir are a gem, and I wish more users would brush up on their graphic engine knowledge.  Then people like me who are anal about their quality/performance ratio wouldn't have to spend 12+ hours tweaking/testing graphic options and .ini files on games like TERA and Skyrim :(

    I think tweaking .ini files is fun though, so meh.

  • YamotaYamota LondonPosts: 6,593Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by mmoski
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Very interesting post. I am a Java developer and always wanted to build some simple persistant multiplayer game but the problem is that my skills are limited to Java and I have no 3D skills at all. And only Java engine I found which seems feasible is jMonkey but it has no multiplayer support :/

    http://www.lwjgl.org/

    Minecraft was made with it, you would need to learn some opengl, networking, and DB (unless you roll your own flat file).

    Nice list, really i dont think any engine is "best for mmorpgs", what should be the case is you find the engine that best fits your design, a key point is to understand a projects deveopment requirements and ensure the choosen engine will be able to achive the design goals.

    Me personally i prefer engines that are just wrappers really, its hard as a programmer trust "blackboxes" where you cant get into the source code or cant see what its doing, and could even end up writting alot of unreusable code,  yeah ok that means i have to roll alot of code, but if you follow good coding principles, you can make reusable code, and switch between graphic wrappers like no tomorrow, cc++ will never die.

    Read some of the tutorial and it looks pretty straight forward. However it seems that this is just an interface to opengl and as such does not contain a physics engine and so on?

    In any case I am going to try it out and see if I can get a simple space 3D object moving around using the mouse.

    Thanks!

  • ArChWindArChWind Some Place, WIPosts: 1,220Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Originally posted by ArChWind
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Very interesting post. I am a Java developer and always wanted to build some simple persistant multiplayer game but the problem is that my skills are limited to Java and I have no 3D skills at all. And only Java engine I found which seems feasible is jMonkey but it has no multiplayer support :/

    Most of Multiverse server is primarly Java based. Some of it is Perl and python but the core engine is java/python. What I like about this design is it is entirely portable so a Sun System is a valid option. In other words the server can run on a main frame.

     Maybe you may find it useable. Much of the client is Python but if you have good skills you may be able to port it to Java.

    Well I looked at the Esenthel engine and it looks really interesting and since I just want to create a simple online game, and not a full fledged MMORPG, the limitations on network code is fine.

    However I am not sure how hard it is to learn C++ if you have 5 years of professional Java experience. Do you know?

    Also, how hard is it to import 3D models to use? Since I dont have any 3D modeling skills I would look at the many free models out there and possibly buy some simple one's as well.

    It is fairl easy to import meshes in Esenthel. The only catch here is the models you will download are going to be WAY WAY to big. You will have to get use to scaling them. I myself use Blender to import models and rescale them. most times it is 100:1 ratio. Oncce they are properly scaled and skinned I open the editor select model and drag the model to the window. If you want animations the make bones for it and rig it in the animation window.

    Hey, I am no artist by any means and I got working animated characters after a couple days of learning.

    As far as programming, if you have 5 years of Java I bet you can can pick up C++ in a very short time frame.

     

  • YamotaYamota LondonPosts: 6,593Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ArChWind
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Originally posted by ArChWind
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Very interesting post. I am a Java developer and always wanted to build some simple persistant multiplayer game but the problem is that my skills are limited to Java and I have no 3D skills at all. And only Java engine I found which seems feasible is jMonkey but it has no multiplayer support :/

    Most of Multiverse server is primarly Java based. Some of it is Perl and python but the core engine is java/python. What I like about this design is it is entirely portable so a Sun System is a valid option. In other words the server can run on a main frame.

     Maybe you may find it useable. Much of the client is Python but if you have good skills you may be able to port it to Java.

    Well I looked at the Esenthel engine and it looks really interesting and since I just want to create a simple online game, and not a full fledged MMORPG, the limitations on network code is fine.

    However I am not sure how hard it is to learn C++ if you have 5 years of professional Java experience. Do you know?

    Also, how hard is it to import 3D models to use? Since I dont have any 3D modeling skills I would look at the many free models out there and possibly buy some simple one's as well.

    It is fairl easy to import meshes in Esenthel. The only catch here is the models you will download are going to be WAY WAY to big. You will have to get use to scaling them. I myself use Blender to import models and rescale them. most times it is 100:1 ratio. Oncce they are properly scaled and skinned I open the editor select model and drag the model to the window. If you want animations the make bones for it and rig it in the animation window.

    Hey, I am no artist by any means and I got working animated characters after a couple days of learning.

    As far as programming, if you have 5 years of Java I bet you can can pick up C++ in a very short time frame.

     

    Cool thanks. I guess my spare time for gaming got a lot less now :)

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 16,602Member Epic

    It's not the engine you use.  It's what you do with it that counts.

    Unless, of course, you pick a game engine that wants to do things one way, and you want to do it a different way, and you don't have access to the full source code to change the engine however you want.  Then it is the engine you use.  But that's your fault for trying to make a game without access to the source code for the engine you're using.

    And if you never manage to come up with something that you really want to do but the game engine you're using doesn't support out of the box, then you really ought to get some more creative ideas for your game.

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  • VorthanionVorthanion Laguna Vista, TXPosts: 2,437Member Uncommon
    I like any engine that is designed specifially for MMOs.  I'm tired of single player engines being modified and jerry-rigged into MMOs.

    image
  • l2avisml2avism Posts: 386Member Uncommon

    With so many indies buying these "engines" to make games they won't finish there is obviously more money being made selling these engines than making indy games.

    If you can't make a game with your own engine, you probably won't be able to make the same game with someone else's engine- you'd just hit that reality faster.

    There is no engine currently available that becomes an MMO out of the box, so more attention should be paid to game design and less paid to engine design. With any engine, you will still have to code your game logic and design all of the art work.

    Buying or making a game engine is only 1% of the work of making a game.

  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKPosts: 13,194Member Legendary

    IMO the best engines are in-house built ones like WoW and Defiance (incidentally done by some of the same devs).

    Lots of great 3rd party engine like CryEngine3.

    But its what you do with the engine that counts.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 14,247Member Rare
    Originally posted by l2avism
    With so many indies buying these "engines" to make games they won't finish there is obviously more money being made selling these engines than making indy games.

    Because it's easier for a someone to convince himself the problem was a limitation of the engine rather than a limitation of his ability. As we've seen from other threads here, a good number of MMO gamers think they can actually create a decent MMO, so it's easy to sell them engine after engine.

    If you look back through each one of these "indie" (1-3 guys, no former titles) teams that are creating an MMO, you'll see that they often switch engine, blaming the one they are abandoning for their hurdles and limitations.

     

    DAoC was made using a very early version of GameBryo (NetImmerse), WOW with the WC3 engine, Lineage 2 with Unreal 2(.5?). You can build a solid MMO around most of the major multiplayer engines if you have an experienced or skilled team.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • l2avisml2avism Posts: 386Member Uncommon

    Most of what people consider to be good graphics is actually the artwork and map design.

    The engine itself does not affect the quality or appearance of the artwork, models, or maps. The engine only controls how well these are rendered and how efficiently they are rendered.

     

    For example, crisis 3 looks awesome with crytek3 engine, but ArcheAge also uses Crytek3 and looks nothing like Crisis.

    Mortal Online uses the Unreal 3 engine and doesn't look as good as the Unreal games.

    The engine alone won't give you good graphics.

  • ArChWindArChWind Some Place, WIPosts: 1,220Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by l2avism
    With so many indies buying these "engines" to make games they won't finish there is obviously more money being made selling these engines than making indy games.

    Because it's easier for a someone to convince himself the problem was a limitation of the engine rather than a limitation of his ability. As we've seen from other threads here, a good number of MMO gamers think they can actually create a decent MMO, so it's easy to sell them engine after engine.

    If you look back through each one of these "indie" (1-3 guys, no former titles) teams that are creating an MMO, you'll see that they often switch engine, blaming the one they are abandoning for their hurdles and limitations.

     

    DAoC was made using a very early version of GameBryo (NetImmerse), WOW with the WC3 engine, Lineage 2 with Unreal 2(.5?). You can build a solid MMO around most of the major multiplayer engines if you have an experienced or skilled team.

    To some extent that is true.

     

    I don’t see engines to be an obstacle at all. I see building a solid team as the biggest hurdle due to shear amount of work involved and the requirement of time to do it. You will not create a competitive game at two and three hours a day invested.
     
    Time and effort may be the biggest and most important over looked requirement of building a MMORPG.
     
    A small team will take years to build one that would draw attention. Take Repop as an example here. Ten years in development, three engine switches and they have to compete with 300+ games. Not saying they will fail by all means but the time factor is considerable for the risk of return.
     
    I personally don’t want to get involved in any project or even my own anymore except as a hobby. In ten years I will be dead probably so I would rather spend my time doing less stressful things like just play someone else MMORPG. :)
     
    @i2avsm - You're correct to an extent there.
  • WereLlamaWereLlama Lubbock, TXPosts: 244Member Uncommon

    We use unity3d for client and custom built the server (guess you can call it the C engine).

    I find the unity3d engine to be extremely intuitive, flexible, and powerful for either 2d or 3d games.

    Only thing I dislike is having to re-purchase the bulk of the platform/seat licenses for each upgrade, and they wonder why we don't leap to each new version.

    -WL

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