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Will most player even notice if the virtual world is taken away from MMO pve gameplay?

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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Swiftrevoir
    When and if this ever happens to MMOs I will be back on a full diet of UnmassivelySingleplayerOfflineRPGs.  I have quit several MMOs already that just had the feel of being in a lobby waiting for action.  When this happens with a game I go back to prancing and gallivanting in games like Skyrim......and have a BLAST!

    wait .. why? If you like SKYRIM, why discriminate against MMOs that play like SKYRIM? Shouldn't you like that instead?

    Personally i would play MMOs like a SP game if it plays as a fun SP game.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by sunshadow21

    It's an interesting question, and one that is not going to get much of a clear answer on any forum simply because those who tend to read forums are only a small portion of everyone who plays such games. Myself, after reading all the responses, I kinda have to agree with the OP that  the trend is definitely toward lobby style games in practice, even with the games that have a "world" that people spend time in while waiting for the "main" events done in instances. Granted, not everyone plays the games that way, but increasingly that is how they are designed, and those who play differently are playing in a way not fully supported by most devs. It's one reason that aside from EVE, and briefly TSW, I haven't seen any MMO recently that made me look past the title and the initial description.

    As for how much an "open world" would be missed, it's hard to say precisely. It would certainly be noticed, but how much it would actually be missed is another question entirely and would depend largely on how well implemented the instances were.

    I suppose that is the better way of asking the question. Does the world matter at all, if the gameplay is mostly not in it.

    And finaly someone gets the point. It is really about playstyle. Whatever the game is classifed as .. is not that important.

  • HedeonHedeon GraestedPosts: 954Member Uncommon

    can only see alot of people in this thread to be too pigheaded, to understand the question, but then I very much agree with the OP, not that  it is what I want from a MMO.

    would I notice if there were no virtual world in a game? ofc...but that is just answering to the title, which I guess aint the best chosen..

    in themepark MMOs - the by mass popular MMOs, and by that what most big companies will try cater to, the PERSISTENT virtual world really should just be removed, the sole reason they are there is for developers to charge 15$/month+,  you go through them once, and rarely return, that is such a waste of ressources to create a persistent virtual world for that.

    the persistent world serves too small a purpose in themepark MMOs, the game that made me change my mind to this stance is borderlands....to me the diffrence between that game and a themepark MMO is too small to wait about 5 years to get me hands on the actual game.

    this would be an extention of the thread about lack of massive gameplay in MMOs...

  • winterwinter El Paso, TXPosts: 2,276Member Uncommon

     So lets see if i got the OP's question correctly. In a nutshell the OP is asking if most players are idiots?

     Well the big name developers that keep dumbing down games and putting out more and more simplistic casual freindly games seem to think so.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by winter

     So lets see if i got the OP's question correctly. In a nutshell the OP is asking if most players are idiots?

     Well the big name developers that keep dumbing down games and putting out more and more simplistic casual freindly games seem to think so.

    hmm .. how is recent game simplistic?

    WOW has much more complex combat mechanics than EQ and UO. When i played EQ from the beginning, there was no CD, no proc, no diminsihing return in CC ... WOW .. heck even Diablo (the first one) is much more complex in combat mechanics than EQ.

  • winterwinter El Paso, TXPosts: 2,276Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by sunshadow21

    It's an interesting question, and one that is not going to get much of a clear answer on any forum simply because those who tend to read forums are only a small portion of everyone who plays such games. Myself, after reading all the responses, I kinda have to agree with the OP that  the trend is definitely toward lobby style games in practice, even with the games that have a "world" that people spend time in while waiting for the "main" events done in instances. Granted, not everyone plays the games that way, but increasingly that is how they are designed, and those who play differently are playing in a way not fully supported by most devs. It's one reason that aside from EVE, and briefly TSW, I haven't seen any MMO recently that made me look past the title and the initial description.

    As for how much an "open world" would be missed, it's hard to say precisely. It would certainly be noticed, but how much it would actually be missed is another question entirely and would depend largely on how well implemented the instances were.

    I suppose that is the better way of asking the question. Does the world matter at all, if the gameplay is mostly not in it.

    And finaly someone gets the point. It is really about playstyle. Whatever the game is classifed as .. is not that important.

    Then you should really rename the thread rather then asking if players "will notice" which IMO anyone with much intelligence WILL notice.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Hedeon

    can only see alot of people in this thread to be too pigheaded, to understand the question, but then I very much agree with the OP, not that  it is what I want from a MMO.

    would I notice if there were no virtual world in a game? ofc...but that is just answering to the title, which I guess aint the best chosen..

    in themepark MMOs - the by mass popular MMOs, and by that what most big companies will try cater to, the PERSISTENT virtual world really should just be removed, the sole reason they are there is for developers to charge 15$/month+,  you go through them once, and rarely return, that is such a waste of ressources to create a persistent virtual world for that.

    the persistent world serves too small a purpose in themepark MMOs, the game that made me change my mind to this stance is borderlands....to me the diffrence between that game and a themepark MMO is too small to wait about 5 years to get me hands on the actual game.

    this would be an extention of the thread about lack of massive gameplay in MMOs...

    I would use TOR as the best example. It would be a much BETTER game if the persistent world is removed, and resources used to juice up combat.

    haha .. i love borderlands too. Great game. And it certainly does not need to be a MMO to have the themepark kind of gameplay (and mix in with FPS). I would say teh same about D3, and Torchlight.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by winter
     

    Then you should really rename the thread rather then asking if players "will notice" which IMO anyone with much intelligence WILL notice.

    Nah .. the better question is if anyone, intelligence or not, will "care".

  • PhelcherPhelcher Boston, MAPosts: 1,053Member
    Most WoW kiddies wont... they only know coolaid. For those whi know mmorpg do and simply dont invest thought into trite kiddie games like over the past 5 years.

    Hilarious watching the market persue youmger and younger players.. and consequently goimg free to play... wheen they find oit kids dont have an income and must bug mommy.

    Where-as, the market moved away from adult content and premium pricing. In which, isnt a problem for an adult.. the problem came when WoW wanted to charge the same premium as an adult game. Ruined the whole mmorpg business model. WoW shoulve been $5.99month.

    I hope eqnext is $20 a month and zero hand-holding game mechanics. Dont need a million players... just 400k that is willing to spend the next 5 years in their world. Though, children will still buy in, then start to complain its too hard, etc.

    "No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


    -Nariusseldon

  • winterwinter El Paso, TXPosts: 2,276Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by winter

     So lets see if i got the OP's question correctly. In a nutshell the OP is asking if most players are idiots?

     Well the big name developers that keep dumbing down games and putting out more and more simplistic casual freindly games seem to think so.

    hmm .. how is recent game simplistic?

    WOW has much more complex combat mechanics than EQ and UO. When i played EQ from the beginning, there was no CD, no proc, no diminsihing return in CC ... WOW .. heck even Diablo (the first one) is much more complex in combat mechanics than EQ.

     How old are WoW, and Diablo? Do you consider that recent? Ok lets take WoW now as compared to WoW then at least, wouldn't you say they have simplified the skill trees by taking away choices, that yes many players stated were note used in the power builds? Instead of changing skills to make them more usefull which would have opened a bunch of problems to balance they simply removed them and said ok here you can have 1 A, B, or C choice every 10 levels.

    Edit: Come to think of it I'd say Diablo3 is more simplistic then Diablo, or Diablo2 now that you mention it. My opinion of course

  • winterwinter El Paso, TXPosts: 2,276Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by winter
     

    Then you should really rename the thread rather then asking if players "will notice" which IMO anyone with much intelligence WILL notice.

    Nah .. the better question is if anyone, intelligence or not, will "care".

     Then don't complain if people answer your question of "Will they notice" over your real question of "Does it matter" Yeah I'm probably nitpicky.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by winter
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by winter
     

    Then you should really rename the thread rather then asking if players "will notice" which IMO anyone with much intelligence WILL notice.

    Nah .. the better question is if anyone, intelligence or not, will "care".

     Then don't complain if people answer your question of "Will they notice" over your real question of "Does it matter" Yeah I'm probably nitpicky.

    Yeah you are. But there is nothing preventing me to extend the discussion to "if they care" in this topic. I doubt i need to open another thread for that discussion.

    And i am not complaining. Just discussing the ins and outs.

  • jimdandy26jimdandy26 salem, ORPosts: 527Member
    Originally posted by winter
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by winter

     So lets see if i got the OP's question correctly. In a nutshell the OP is asking if most players are idiots?

     Well the big name developers that keep dumbing down games and putting out more and more simplistic casual freindly games seem to think so.

    hmm .. how is recent game simplistic?

    WOW has much more complex combat mechanics than EQ and UO. When i played EQ from the beginning, there was no CD, no proc, no diminsihing return in CC ... WOW .. heck even Diablo (the first one) is much more complex in combat mechanics than EQ.

     How old are WoW, and Diablo? Do you consider that recent? Ok lets take WoW now as compared to WoW then at least, wouldn't you say they have simplified the skill trees by taking away choices, that yes many players stated were note used in the power builds? Instead of changing skills to make them more usefull which would have opened a bunch of problems to balance they simply removed them and said ok here you can have 1 A, B, or C choice every 10 levels.

    Not really, because those were the only meaningful choices you had at that point anyway. You really did not lose anything from the skill trees, they just gave them to you anyway.

    I do get where you are coming from to an extent, but especially from a designers perspective the game is much more complicated now than it was at release. The player base through osmosis is much less ignorant now than it was then for starters. Itemization has many more choices to it, and rotation has changed dramatically. I know my first 4 years of WoW all I had as a raiding warlock was spam shadowbolt, which kinda sucked balls honestly.

    I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

    To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

  • JaedorJaedor Denver, COPosts: 1,140Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by bunnyhopper Yes they will. Next!
    How? When? Certainly not when they are in a city waiting for a dungeon to pop, or in that dungeon doing a 5-man run.

    Narius, not everyone hangs out in cities waiting on the next dungeon run or skraid. All those folks would notice.

  • PhelcherPhelcher Boston, MAPosts: 1,053Member
    WoW does not have more advanced combat mechanics than EverQuest. Not even close, as Blizzard said themselved in WoW beta when beta testers (mostly eq players) were grillimg the devs on WoW's fisher price mechanics.

    Blizzard said it was because their a different target audience and they have less character hooks.

    Block, dodge, reposte, fear, blind, levitate, magnify, etc... the list goes on and on with the game mechanics that were missing from WoW. Because the game engine didnt support them.

    I think a good many forget that eq was skill based too, along with being level based. And the many skills each class had made for dynamic play.

    "No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


    -Nariusseldon

  • PhelcherPhelcher Boston, MAPosts: 1,053Member
    You have become better at block(28).. sense heading.. swimming..

    "No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


    -Nariusseldon

  • pmilespmiles Federal Way, WAPosts: 383Member

    The gold farmers would definitely notice... 

    "Damn, where are all the nodes?" 

  • CecropiaCecropia Posts: 3,472Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Goatgod76
    Originally posted by GrayGhost79 

    First I highlighted a key word for you that should help. 

     

    No, I don't agree with you. Simple as that lol. They are themeparks, this is what a themepark does. This is why many prefer sandbox games over themeparks.. Sandbox games utilize the world a great deal more and don't tend to do much if any of the themepark type of dungeons and raids. 

     

    So... no I don't agree with you. 

    GrayGhost79...you are going to get carpel tunnel and still never get anything through to him. Don't bother.

    In some thread last week, I kid you not, this member was actually trying to tell another member who wanted a virtual world because he lived in a part of the world where there was little to no nature that he should just go camping to satisfy his needs instead. He was literally arguing with the OP about why he doesn't really need a virtual world.

    Mind-blowingly ridiculous.

     

    "Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Yakkin
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Sure there are other games for that too in other genre (ARPG), but that does not mean that some MMOs are not like that. And if my idea is not popular, why is many doing that in orgrimmar, stormwind, and so on ....

    "Insert something about there not being any games that allow for a different approach/incentivize the open world as an alternate solution to being stuck in a lobby."

    It is not mutally exclusive. Lots of players do lobby style gameplay is just that. There are also lots playing ps2, a virtually world game.

  • Trudge34Trudge34 Stevens Point, WIPosts: 392Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Phelcher
    WoW does not have more advanced combat mechanics than EverQuest. Not even close, as Blizzard said themselved in WoW beta when beta testers (mostly eq players) were grillimg the devs on WoW's fisher price mechanics.

    Blizzard said it was because their a different target audience and they have less character hooks.

    Block, dodge, reposte, fear, blind, levitate, magnify, etc... the list goes on and on with the game mechanics that were missing from WoW. Because the game engine didnt support them.

    I think a good many forget that eq was skill based too, along with being level based. And the many skills each class had made for dynamic play.

    I was thinking the same thing about EQ's combat. Individually, yeah, WoW's combat may seem more advanced. You play a warrior, rogue, wizard, cleric it seems very simple. But where the complexity comes is in the group dynamics of each class working together. We've put together some very interesting groups that were very unorthodox ways of killing and getting exp. There was a trinity, but that was just like min / maxing. Not totally needed but it was most efficient.

    Played: EQ1 (10 Years), Guild Wars, Rift, TERA
    Tried: EQ2, Vanguard, Lord of the Rings Online, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Runes of Magic and countless others...
    Currently Playing: GW2

    Nytlok Sylas
    80 Sylvari Ranger

  • PhelcherPhelcher Boston, MAPosts: 1,053Member
    Most who do looby style games, do so because they are bored with the game, but still enjoy the incertainty of combat.. Or, the game itself is boring and lobby os the only thing phun left to do.

    Either way, it is no phun to play a lobby game you are paying for, so most games turned into ftp, because most turned into lobby games.

    Point is.. any lobby game now is not worth noting, as it's already dieing or dead.

    "No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


    -Nariusseldon

  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,853Member Uncommon
    I think most would just like they would in the real world. Knowing there is a big world with others running around out there is far different than getting put into a personal instance. I think that's why a lot of people play MMOs in the first place.

    Using WoW is a great example of how a persistent world is important. Blizzard had spent a lot of time and money making said persistent world better. As to how many people are standing around waiting for a dungeon to pop are numbers only Blizzard is going to know. Since that same entity had invested in persistent world changes I can only assume that not enough players think it's useless.
  • sunshadow21sunshadow21 Omaha, NEPosts: 354Member
    Originally posted by Jaedor

     


    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by bunnyhopper Yes they will. Next!
    How? When? Certainly not when they are in a city waiting for a dungeon to pop, or in that dungeon doing a 5-man run.

     

    Narius, not everyone hangs out in cities waiting on the next dungeon run or skraid. All those folks would notice.

    But how many would really care if they were able to do the same solo activitives in a private instance while waiting for the group instances? That, I believe is the real question here. How important in the persistant world part in some of the current crop of themepark games? I would guess that most posters here would say very, but I question how indicative that is of the population as a whole. I'd be willing to bet that for the majority of people, you could place them in a well done instance, and they would not notice a difference. I'm not saying I want games that do that, but that is a reality that I have come to accept, and a major reason that I've gotten very picky about the games I show interest in.

  • laokokolaokoko TaipeiPosts: 2,003Member
    Originally posted by Phelcher
    Most who do looby style games, do so because they are bored with the game, but still enjoy the incertainty of combat.. Or, the game itself is boring and lobby os the only thing phun left to do.

    Either way, it is no phun to play a lobby game you are paying for, so most games turned into ftp, because most turned into lobby games.

    Point is.. any lobby game now is not worth noting, as it's already dieing or dead.

    Ya I mean all those virtual world game are doing much better.

    That is why currently the mmorpg market are full with those virtual world games everyone love and play.

  • RefMinorRefMinor MyTownPosts: 3,452Member
    Originally posted by laokoko
    Originally posted by Phelcher
    Most who do looby style games, do so because they are bored with the game, but still enjoy the incertainty of combat.. Or, the game itself is boring and lobby os the only thing phun left to do.

    Either way, it is no phun to play a lobby game you are paying for, so most games turned into ftp, because most turned into lobby games.

    Point is.. any lobby game now is not worth noting, as it's already dieing or dead.

    Ya I mean all those virtual world game are doing much better.

    That is why currently the mmorpg market are full with those virtual world games everyone love and play.

    They are coming.

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