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[Interview] General: Jason Appleton Responds to Controversy

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Comments

  • bishbosh2bishbosh2 SydneyPosts: 66Member

    This appleton guy got mad because someone was talking shit about him/ his game on the internet. Absolutely terrible. Shouldnt he be making his game rather than feeding trolls on the internet? I still dont think he gets it... its not about whether the poster was right or wrong. Its about you doing your job ie. not getting into fights with internet trolls....

    All these indie mmorpgs led my devs with no experiences are pretty much guaranteed fails. This Jason Appleton dude has zero industry experience let alone a simple game under his belt. Why would anyone fund this project?

    Watching the kickstarter video makes me puke. "we're not even serverside yet" -- wtf does that mean? sounds like this dude has no idea what he is talking about. All the kickstarter shows is a bunch of 3d models, uninspiring art style, no gameplay, no demonstration of multiplayer, no combat, no spells just nothing.  FFS they are still deciding what game engine they are going to use.... vaporware for sure

     
  • korvasskorvass den haagPosts: 623Member

    I like this guy. He makes a lot of very solid points about the nature of internet goers, and MMORPG.com's forums. Actually, I think he might be the first person to speak openly about how developers really view forums like MMORPG.com.

     

    So he got into a bit of a PR mashup with some d*cks here at MMORPG.com. The man's a fighter. He's used to brawling. I respect him for being open and honest about things.

     

    Thumbs up to the guy for making his goals reality. For all of you whining about his lack of professionalism, and how 'he doesn't know what he's talking about' - man up and make a MMO, then come back with the experience and knowledge to back your words.

  • JamesPJamesP Portland, MEPosts: 435Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by bishbosh2

    This appleton guy got mad because someone was talking shit about him/ his game on the internet. Absolutely terrible. Shouldnt he be making his game rather than feeding trolls on the internet? I still dont think he gets it... its not about whether the poster was right or wrong. Its about you doing your job ie. not getting into fights with internet trolls....

    All these indie mmorpgs led my devs with no experiences are pretty much guaranteed fails. This Jason Appleton dude has zero industry experience let alone a simple game under his belt. Why would anyone fund this project?

    Watching the kickstarter video makes me puke. "we're not even serverside yet" -- wtf does that mean? sounds like this dude has no idea what he is talking about. All the kickstarter shows is a bunch of 3d models, uninspiring art style, no gameplay, no demonstration of multiplayer, no combat, no spells just nothing.  FFS they are still deciding what game engine they are going to use.... vaporware for sure

     

    We aren't still deciding on an engine... We have gone with HeroEngine end of story!

    Company Owner
    MMO Interactive
    Greed Monger

  • tom_goretom_gore TamperePosts: 1,796Member Uncommon

    Well my money is already on the table (backer here!) and I hope that you, Jason, have learned one thing:

    Anonymous Internet Forum Warriors are serious shit. You don't mess with them, ever. You can't win a fight against an opponent that for all practical purposes, doesn't have anything to lose.

    The only way you can hurt them is to build your game and prove them wrong.

     

  • BetaguyBetaguy Halifax, NSPosts: 2,590Member
    Originally posted by Sovrath

    Jason Appleton: Who knows? Look, I just call things how I see them and I don't tend to pull punches. People think that because you are a developer that you have to act like a priest. I'm not a priest. I'm an indie game developer and I speak my mind.

     

    I would say that you have to act professionally as it's a company, possibly one with investors who want to see their money in good hands and they are there to ultimately sell a product and make their customers confident in the product and creators.

    Not to mention.you want to always put on a good face. We have to do this in interviews, with clients, maybe meeting our new relationship's parents, etc.

    It's part of making first and lasting impressions.

    If I was an employer and I  found his remarks, I wouldn't hire him.

    I don't see being "an indy" developer as a free pass to act like a hurt kid. Then again, I have worked in a lot of professional ciurcumstances and I'm a bit older so maybe that's just me.

     Exactly, another reason I believe greed monger is a money grab.

    image

  • tom_goretom_gore TamperePosts: 1,796Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Betaguy
    Originally posted by Sovrath

    Jason Appleton: Who knows? Look, I just call things how I see them and I don't tend to pull punches. People think that because you are a developer that you have to act like a priest. I'm not a priest. I'm an indie game developer and I speak my mind.

     

    I would say that you have to act professionally as it's a company, possibly one with investors who want to see their money in good hands and they are there to ultimately sell a product and make their customers confident in the product and creators.

    Not to mention.you want to always put on a good face. We have to do this in interviews, with clients, maybe meeting our new relationship's parents, etc.

    It's part of making first and lasting impressions.

    If I was an employer and I  found his remarks, I wouldn't hire him.

    I don't see being "an indy" developer as a free pass to act like a hurt kid. Then again, I have worked in a lot of professional ciurcumstances and I'm a bit older so maybe that's just me.

     Exactly, another reason I believe greed monger is a money grab.

     

    If it's a money grab it's a really bad one, as the guys running this grab should have blown town with the KS money a long time ago.

     

  • BetaguyBetaguy Halifax, NSPosts: 2,590Member
    Originally posted by tom_gore
    Originally posted by Betaguy
    Originally posted by Sovrath

    Jason Appleton: Who knows? Look, I just call things how I see them and I don't tend to pull punches. People think that because you are a developer that you have to act like a priest. I'm not a priest. I'm an indie game developer and I speak my mind.

     

    I would say that you have to act professionally as it's a company, possibly one with investors who want to see their money in good hands and they are there to ultimately sell a product and make their customers confident in the product and creators.

    Not to mention.you want to always put on a good face. We have to do this in interviews, with clients, maybe meeting our new relationship's parents, etc.

    It's part of making first and lasting impressions.

    If I was an employer and I  found his remarks, I wouldn't hire him.

    I don't see being "an indy" developer as a free pass to act like a hurt kid. Then again, I have worked in a lot of professional ciurcumstances and I'm a bit older so maybe that's just me.

     Exactly, another reason I believe greed monger is a money grab.

     

    If it's a money grab it's a really bad one, as the guys running this grab should have blown town with the KS money a long time ago.

     

    We don't know where they spent the money so I will hold judgement on that until we get more deets.

    image

  • 3-4thElf3-4thElf Elftown, MEPosts: 489Member
    Welp. If you gave this guy your money; Boy do I have a deal for you! Ever seen a bridge for sale?

    a yo ho ho

  • tom_goretom_gore TamperePosts: 1,796Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Betaguy
    Originally posted by tom_gore
    Originally posted by Betaguy
    Originally posted by Sovrath

    Jason Appleton: Who knows? Look, I just call things how I see them and I don't tend to pull punches. People think that because you are a developer that you have to act like a priest. I'm not a priest. I'm an indie game developer and I speak my mind.

     

    I would say that you have to act professionally as it's a company, possibly one with investors who want to see their money in good hands and they are there to ultimately sell a product and make their customers confident in the product and creators.

    Not to mention.you want to always put on a good face. We have to do this in interviews, with clients, maybe meeting our new relationship's parents, etc.

    It's part of making first and lasting impressions.

    If I was an employer and I  found his remarks, I wouldn't hire him.

    I don't see being "an indy" developer as a free pass to act like a hurt kid. Then again, I have worked in a lot of professional ciurcumstances and I'm a bit older so maybe that's just me.

     Exactly, another reason I believe greed monger is a money grab.

     

    If it's a money grab it's a really bad one, as the guys running this grab should have blown town with the KS money a long time ago.

     

    We don't know where they spent the money so I will hold judgement on that until we get more deets.

    Well you obviously didn't get my point, so I'll try again:

    If it was a scam or a money grab, the guys would be gone, poof. They would not be writing on forums or whatnot, leaving traceable evidence of themselves.

  • tom_goretom_gore TamperePosts: 1,796Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by 3-4thElf
    Welp. If you gave this guy your money; Boy do I have a deal for you! Ever seen a bridge for sale?

    I'll rather give my money for this game than whatever WoW clone themepark lobby-crap comes out next. If this game is never released, I would still be in the same situation - with only 100% shit MMOs to play, or nothing at all.

     

  • BetaguyBetaguy Halifax, NSPosts: 2,590Member
    Originally posted by tom_gore
    Originally posted by Betaguy
    Originally posted by tom_gore
    Originally posted by Betaguy
    Originally posted by Sovrath

    Jason Appleton: Who knows? Look, I just call things how I see them and I don't tend to pull punches. People think that because you are a developer that you have to act like a priest. I'm not a priest. I'm an indie game developer and I speak my mind.

     

    I would say that you have to act professionally as it's a company, possibly one with investors who want to see their money in good hands and they are there to ultimately sell a product and make their customers confident in the product and creators.

    Not to mention.you want to always put on a good face. We have to do this in interviews, with clients, maybe meeting our new relationship's parents, etc.

    It's part of making first and lasting impressions.

    If I was an employer and I  found his remarks, I wouldn't hire him.

    I don't see being "an indy" developer as a free pass to act like a hurt kid. Then again, I have worked in a lot of professional ciurcumstances and I'm a bit older so maybe that's just me.

     Exactly, another reason I believe greed monger is a money grab.

     

    If it's a money grab it's a really bad one, as the guys running this grab should have blown town with the KS money a long time ago.

     

    We don't know where they spent the money so I will hold judgement on that until we get more deets.

    Well you obviously didn't get my point, so I'll try again:

    If it was a scam or a money grab, the guys would be gone, poof. They would not be writing on forums or whatnot, leaving traceable evidence of themselves.

     They don't need to disapear, its not illegal if they cancel thier product and then in turn keep all the monies if they set it up right. Lrn2bigbusiness.

    image

  • DSWBeefDSWBeef phoenix, AZPosts: 791Member
    TBH all this "controversy" has stemmed from how toxic the mmorpg genre community has become. I guarantee you that many of these trolls are wow fanboys who sole purpose in game is to troll trade chat.

    Playing: War Thunder, World of Warcraft, and Grim Dawn
    Waiting on:Everquest Next and The Black Desert

  • xmentyxmenty SingaporePosts: 679Member
    Originally posted by tom_gore
    Originally posted by 3-4thElf
    Welp. If you gave this guy your money; Boy do I have a deal for you! Ever seen a bridge for sale?

    I'll rather give my money for this game than whatever WoW clone themepark lobby-crap comes out next. If this game is never released, I would still be in the same situation - with only 100% shit MMOs to play, or nothing at all.

     

    This is typical desperate and hard up sandbox gamers.

    These are the kind of people that harm the MMO for us cos they keep rally for bad games and bad devs.

    You just cannot just say no.

    The sandbox games will never get better because of this typical mindset.

    We as gamers need to have some high standard of QA in gaming.

    Say "NO" to Devs write up. They need to show us gameplay videos.

     

    Pardon my English as it is not my 1st language :)

  • CaldrinCaldrin CwmbranPosts: 4,533Member Uncommon

    Im not a backer of this game at all as i didnt like some of their ideas.. but i find it disgusting how people post on forums (not just here) rippnig into someone with personal attacks and so on..

    but i guess thats the internet for you, some people have nothing else to do.

  • AmanaAmana New York, NYPosts: 2,564Moderator Uncommon
    Originally posted by Gwahlur
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    It's called "being a legitimate business person/company."

    How do you expect people to think you'll release a quality product worth their hard earned money if you can't at least fake a presentable face to the consumer?

    Being an "indie" doesn't give you the right to be a douche.

     

    And if people are being douches towards you and attacking you personally, not as a business person or company, you're not allowed to react as a human and not as a company?

     

      Rules Of Conduct

     

    These apply to all members. If you're posting here, you're agreeing to these, so in such a case, reporting the posts would be the thing to do, not respond to them. 

    To give feedback on moderation, contact community@mmorpg.com

  • tom_goretom_gore TamperePosts: 1,796Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by xmenty
    Originally posted by tom_gore
    Originally posted by 3-4thElf
    Welp. If you gave this guy your money; Boy do I have a deal for you! Ever seen a bridge for sale?

    I'll rather give my money for this game than whatever WoW clone themepark lobby-crap comes out next. If this game is never released, I would still be in the same situation - with only 100% shit MMOs to play, or nothing at all.

     

    This is typical desperate and hard up sandbox gamers.

    You are one of those people that contribute to rally for bad games and bad dev cos you cannot just say no.

    The sandbox games will never get better because of your kind of attitude.

    You need to have some high standard in gaming and say no to sweet write up without even seeing any gameplay.

     

    I'm sorry, but I have tried that tactic for about 10 years now and it's not working. All we get is more gear treadmill bullcrap themepark games over and over and over again.

    I'm pretty convinced by now that us "hardcore" sandbox gamers are not going to see another "AAA" sandbox title ever again, because that's not what the masses want. I want it, though, and if it means I'll have to chalk it up being an indie title, so be it. Indie titles have the potential to grow over time into a great game (Minecraft, EVE Online).

    So no. I'm done giving my money to WoW clones and games that claim they're not WoW clones but in reality are WoW clones. I'm also done waiting for the AAA sandbox title to just drop out of the sky and putting my money where my mouth is. I've now backed both Greed Monger and Pathfinder. If both of those fail, I'll back the next one and then the next one until one dev gets it right or until they stop trying.

    If this costs me around 60-100 bucks a year it's money well spent, because I've got something to look forward, even if it's going to lead to disappointment.

     

  • TithenonTithenon Fountain, COPosts: 109Member

    "People think that because you are a developer that you have to act like a priest. I'm not a priest. I'm an indie game developer and I speak my mind."

     

    It's about time one of these developers explained their mind, and what's going on.  A lot of people simply do NOT understand that these people are making these things to not only make a living from them, but to make something with integrity, that THEY want to play in.  Yet, they receive a ton of guff from people who simply don't know, or who know but refuse to understand, and they're not the ones making the game.  It's not YOUR game just because you subscribe to a forum somewhere and intend to spend some money and then, when you get pissed off because things aren't going to YOUR plan, you start griping and complaining because you're the forum ranger.

     

    For my part, had I won the lawsuit I was prosecuting, I was going to put together a company -I am a businessman, as well as both a computer and tabletop gamer- and work toward building a MMORPG, but I was gonna be damned twice if I was going to open forums or let anyone know what was going on until we were ready for Closed Beta.  I'm of the mind of Field of Dreams, "If you build it, they will come", and I wouldn't let anyone know a damn thing until it was ready for Closed Beta.  Like Mr. Appleton, I have a very difficult time NOT feeding the trolls, and I don't see the need to hire a community manager/team until it's time for the community to be available.  It's my vision, not yours, and you don't deserve to know anything about it until it's done, period.

     

    I've often thought those who open forums for MMORPG gamers deserve the trouble they are bringing on themselves, and this was a prime example of it.  Single-player game developers don't do this for the community that will, inevitably be built around their game, and there's not one reason to do it for MMORPG game developers.

     

    'Nuff said.

  • BaikalBaikal Chicago, TXPosts: 1,025Member

    [quote][i]Originally posted by Tithenon[/i]

    [b]"People think that because you are a developer that you have to act like a priest. I'm not a priest. I'm an indie game developer and I speak my mind."

     

     

    It's about time one of these developers explained their mind, and what's going on.  A lot of people simply do NOT understand that these people are making these things to not only make a living from them, but to make something with integrity, that THEY want to play in.  Yet, they receive a ton of guff from people who simply don't know, or who know but refuse to understand, and they're not the ones making the game.  It's not YOUR game just because you subscribe to a forum somewhere and intend to spend some money and then, when you get pissed off because things aren't going to YOUR plan, you start griping and complaining because you're the forum ranger.[/b][/quote]

     

     

    As someone who has loosely followed this, I'll say simply that speaking your mind is one thing, and I dont think most people begrudge or object to that. Where it becomes an issue, is where someone who is presenting themselves as a professional chooses to act not very professionally. There is a reason developers bite their tongues, and often dont say what they would like, and that goes for most business professionals as well. You carry yourself as a professional, period. 

     

    If you think that the behavior was professional, so be it, my personal opinion is that it could have been handled in a much better manner. It's the old saying, "Dont argue with an idiot, they'll drag you down to their level, and beat you with experience." Someone got baited, and I dont see how you can spin it as a positive.

     

    Just my 2 cents though.

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,461Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Tithenon

    For my part, had I won the lawsuit I was prosecuting, I was going to put together a company -I am a businessman, as well as both a computer and tabletop gamer- and work toward building a MMORPG, but I was gonna be damned twice if I was going to open forums or let anyone know what was going on until we were ready for Closed Beta.  I'm of the mind of Field of Dreams, "If you build it, they will come", and I wouldn't let anyone know a damn thing until it was ready for Closed Beta.  Like Mr. Appleton, I have a very difficult time NOT feeding the trolls, and I don't see the need to hire a community manager/team until it's time for the community to be available.  It's my vision, not yours, and you don't deserve to know anything about it until it's done, period.

     

    I think that's exactly how it should be. Completely agree.
  • AeonbladesAeonblades Home, GAPosts: 2,083Member
    Good read. Don't agree with him, but all the same, kudos for stepping up to the plate on this one Appleton. At least you have cajones.

    Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
    Have played: You name it
    If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.

  • xeraxxerax LondonPosts: 61Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by JamesP

    I'm sort of confused here.

    In our KickStarter we stated that we were using Unity3D. At that time we were banking on getting our hands on a specific piece of Technology that would have allowed us to have the seamless world we were planning on having. We then found out that piece of technology was still in development, was more for the license then we even managed to get through our KickStarter, or required a Revenue Share to obtain a license for. So another words that piece of technology that we were basing our whole Framework on having fell through. That Combined with Unity's Sneaky tactics of trying to hide the fact that they added some new things into their EULA caused us to loose faith in Unity3D for Greed Monger which meant we had to change engines to continue moving forward.

     

    Now you guys are seeming to indicate you would rather have had us stick with Unity3D and released a watered down Zone (With Loading Screens) based version of what we wanted to release and were promising to release...

     

    I just really fail to see the logic in all of that? 

     

    James, you and I seem to have a very different way of doing business.

    When I make a promise to a client or an investor their is only one evaluating question. Did or didn't i deliver on that promise. "Why" is irrelevant to my customer most of the time.

    This is an industry where consumers have been cheated , ripped off / had change forced on them or out right lied too on numerous occasions. Sure there are haters and fanboys in equal measure but the vast majority of us are just suspicous / jaded consumers who will run a mile at the first sign that a developer is not delivering what was promised for whatever reason.

    I want to offer you a couple of tips which i would like you to atleast consider:

    Manage expectations, only offer what you know you can deliver. if something isn't certian don't mention it. People will love you for over delivering later.

    Don't ever try to agrue with haters however "right" you are it will never help the situation.  Some of your potential customers may just read 1 or 2 posts in a thread in which you get angry and decide your a nutter because they havn't read the other posts which illicited that response from you. This is particuliarly important in an international forums because acceptable standard of behaviour very hugely arround the world. Getting angry is not nearly as acceptable outside the US in the business world.

     

  • ZekiahZekiah Aurora, COPosts: 2,499Member

    This is exactly why devs shouldn't play Forum PvP. You can't win.

    Hire a PR person who can handle forum discussion without having their emotions run wild. Shouldn't you be busy doing something else anyway?

    "Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky

  • Geoxer22Geoxer22 Spring, TXPosts: 6Member

    Rule One: DONT FEED THE TROLLS.

    Rule Two: BE KIND TO TROLLS. (makes them crazy)

    Rule Three: NEVER SHOW EMOTION. ( the emo kids will feed on your soul.)

    These are the rules of the internet of todays age welcome.

  • nukempronukempro Hudson, FLPosts: 76Member

    1.You are free to have whatever attitude you like. You are free to speak your mind and say whatever you like.

     

    2.We are free to get rubbed the wrong way by your attitude. We are free to totally ignore your work and spend money elsewhere.

     

    3.If you get emotionally charged by comments on the internet or internet forums, you are immature. It's text on a screen and it only has meaning if you give it meaning.

     

    4.If you goal is to get as many people as possible to invest in your project and ultimately buy your game. You have a strange way of advertising.

  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel houston, TXPosts: 7,277Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by xerax
    Originally posted by JamesP

    I'm sort of confused here.

    In our KickStarter we stated that we were using Unity3D. At that time we were banking on getting our hands on a specific piece of Technology that would have allowed us to have the seamless world we were planning on having. We then found out that piece of technology was still in development, was more for the license then we even managed to get through our KickStarter, or required a Revenue Share to obtain a license for. So another words that piece of technology that we were basing our whole Framework on having fell through. That Combined with Unity's Sneaky tactics of trying to hide the fact that they added some new things into their EULA caused us to loose faith in Unity3D for Greed Monger which meant we had to change engines to continue moving forward.

     

    Now you guys are seeming to indicate you would rather have had us stick with Unity3D and released a watered down Zone (With Loading Screens) based version of what we wanted to release and were promising to release...

     

    I just really fail to see the logic in all of that? 

     

    James, you and I seem to have a very different way of doing business.

    When I make a promise to a client or an investor their is only one evaluating question. Did or didn't i deliver on that promise. "Why" is irrelevant to my customer most of the time.

    This is an industry where consumers have been cheated , ripped off / had change forced on them or out right lied too on numerous occasions. Sure there are haters and fanboys in equal measure but the vast majority of us are just suspicous / jaded consumers who will run a mile at the first sign that a developer is not delivering what was promised for whatever reason.

    I want to offer you a couple of tips which i would like you to atleast consider:

    Manage expectations, only offer what you know you can deliver. if something isn't certian don't mention it. People will love you for over delivering later.

    Don't ever try to agrue with haters however "right" you are it will never help the situation.  Some of your potential customers may just read 1 or 2 posts in a thread in which you get angry and decide your a nutter because they havn't read the other posts which illicited that response from you. This is particuliarly important in an international forums because acceptable standard of behaviour very hugely arround the world. Getting angry is not nearly as acceptable outside the US in the business world.

     

    Since the original post he responded to was likely mine,  all I'm going to say on this point is,  (as someone who works with Unity for mobile development),  if the licensing fee was a problem (which is actually not that bad as Unity is great for Indie development)  that should have been a red flag prior to a crowdfunding campaign.  

     

    Unity has never been shady about its licensing fees,  and their technical and sales staff have run a number of demos as well as hosted developer meetings here (in Houston).  

     

    Now, considering Jason mentioned that he was ignorant of the fact that his engine could not complete the desired results based on James' recommendations,  I'm not saying it isn't understandable why a change was made.  1) Developers like working with products they are more familiar with.  2) Any excess of programming in Unity to get a desired result could cost more in the long run depending on what that result is.  Thats part of the reason to use an engine, to cut costs on building from scratch.  

     

    The "logic" of it all, was that it was a poor initial decision, one that a Kickstarter Campaign was run on.  I personally have no stake in the game either way,  but I would say, if I were an "investor" in this product,  I would be wary.  Lack of information including the stage of development,  concrete timetables on when updates or products can be expected, and the intention of additional kickstarters in lack of these is more of a red flag then a green light.  

     

    If nothing else, at least, maybe, Greedmonger can see my point.

     

    "Loan me a Dragon I wanna see space"


    image

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