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Diablo 3: Jay Wilson's Departure Stirs Angry Debate

13

Comments

  • AlberelAlberel LondonPosts: 1,121Member
    Originally posted by Psychow
    I never had any intention of PvPing on D3. I guess I'm a story fanboy and thus D3 is an amazingly good game...to me.

    Wouldn't that require a good story though? One of the biggest complaints at launch was how lame the story was... I had no interest in the PvP either but I was incrediby disappointed with the game partly because of how pathetic the story was.

  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member
    Originally posted by birdycephon

    It's not broken by any means. It is exactly the way it was desined to be, and that is, it encourages trade between players.

    There's a diference between encouraging trade between players and forcing players to trade to get even the basic gear they need .

    An item that has a 1 in 10000 chance to drop means there will probably be quite a few on an AH for sale with a population as large as D3 started with....it also means you'll probably never find it.

    That's how you force people to trade.

  • PsychowPsychow SF Giants Territory, CAPosts: 1,784Member
    Originally posted by Alberel
    Originally posted by Psychow
    I never had any intention of PvPing on D3. I guess I'm a story fanboy and thus D3 is an amazingly good game...to me.

    Wouldn't that require a good story though? One of the biggest complaints at launch was how lame the story was... I had no interest in the PvP either but I was incrediby disappointed with the game partly because of how pathetic the story was.

     

    I din't feel the story was pathetic. It could have been better, sure, but not pathetic. It's like a summer blockbuster action flick...you know how it's going to end, but you just go along for the ride.

  • zymurgeistzymurgeist Pittsville, VAPosts: 5,211Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by OgreRaper
    Heh, I liked Diablo 1 and 2 but have never even played Diablo 3. Heard about the real money auction house before it launched and decided not have any part of that.

     That's OK most of the people bitching up a storm haven't played it recently either. The game isn't perfect but is a lot of fun for me. But hey why would they waste a perfect excuse to get bent out of shape over something so trivial as a game. It's not like the world has any serious issues to be concerned about.  /eyeroll

     

    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by birdycephon

    It's not broken by any means. It is exactly the way it was desined to be, and that is, it encourages trade between players.

    There's a diference between encouraging trade between players and forcing players to trade to get even the basic gear they need .

    An item that has a 1 in 10000 chance to drop means there will probably be quite a few on an AH for sale with a population as large as D3 started with....it also means you'll probably never find it.

    That's how you force people to trade.

     

    If you're "forced" to trade you must suck at the game. I've never had any great  difficulty  doing anything in the game without ever using the auction house. There are no must have items. You just can't faceroll inferno though.

     

    "Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause" ~Victor Hugo

  • xBarachielxxBarachielx hfgjjhPosts: 15Member
    So long as people keep licking the hand that beats them, nothing'll change. I'm glad I had the mental and emotional fortitude necessary to keep my 60 bucks out of the hands of these shysters.
  • kadepsysonkadepsyson sun prairie, WIPosts: 1,937Member
    Originally posted by zymurgeist
    Originally posted by OgreRaper
    Heh, I liked Diablo 1 and 2 but have never even played Diablo 3. Heard about the real money auction house before it launched and decided not have any part of that.

     That's OK most of the people bitching up a storm haven't played it recently either. The game isn't perfect but is a lot of fun for me. But hey why would they waste a perfect excuse to get bent out of shape over something so trivial as a game. It's not like the world has any serious issues to be concerned about.  /eyeroll

    Ah you're right, please excuse me while I fix the worlds serious issues.  /eyeroll

    El Psy Congroo

  • zymurgeistzymurgeist Pittsville, VAPosts: 5,211Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by kadepsyson
    Originally posted by zymurgeist
    Originally posted by OgreRaper
    Heh, I liked Diablo 1 and 2 but have never even played Diablo 3. Heard about the real money auction house before it launched and decided not have any part of that.

     That's OK most of the people bitching up a storm haven't played it recently either. The game isn't perfect but is a lot of fun for me. But hey why would they waste a perfect excuse to get bent out of shape over something so trivial as a game. It's not like the world has any serious issues to be concerned about.  /eyeroll

    Ah you're right, please excuse me while I fix the worlds serious issues.  /eyeroll

     If you're not part of the solution.............

    "Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause" ~Victor Hugo

  • kadepsysonkadepsyson sun prairie, WIPosts: 1,937Member
    Originally posted by zymurgeist

     

    If you're "forced" to trade you just suck at the game. I've never had any great  difficulty  doing anything in the game without ever using the auction house. There afre no must have items. You just can't faceroll inferno though.

     

    You're right, Diablo 2 also felt a lot tougher on its hardest difficulty setting compared to Diablo 3.

    Somehow finding a good item also felt much more exciting in Diablo 2 as well, despite not being allowed to auction it for real money.

    El Psy Congroo

  • jimdandy26jimdandy26 salem, ORPosts: 527Member
    Originally posted by kadepsyson

     

    Always on DRM?  You mean the stuff that makes it so Diablo 3 cannot be played unless you have internet connection, and the Blizzard servers are on?  How I can't mod the game to extend replayability, or to mess around with LAN friends?  Yeah, that's a great feature too - one that diminishes the game for everyone to prevent something a few might do.

    It was merely an example of "new" technology. Keep in mind those sorts of decisions really need to be made during the planning stages and these games have 2-5 year development cycles. As noted in the original thread D3 had 7 I believe. I do agree that always on DRM has its own issues, many of which need to be solved, but attempting to deny that piracy is a problem at all is truly foolish.

    Also, with your bit about halfway expensive eve ships you pretty much proved my point more than yours.  You're right, they would be freaking expensive in real money terms to replace.  And not everyone can do that.  Therefore, the ones who can, are paying for an advantage.  BOOM.

    Except its not really an advantage. Its no more of an advantage than Multi boxing, or merely spending more time in game. Paying to win is having an advantage that you cannot get in game. This is not buying power, its buying equalization.

    I did enjoy how your justification at the end is "Hey we can't stop them from doing stuff we don't like, so we may as well just do it too and profit along the way"

    That is not my justification, that is free market economics. Or are you really one of those who refuses to shop at Walmart too?

    To me it isn't about rules so much as it is about gameplay being diminished and ethical development.

    How is it dimishing gameplay? Its merely another choice for you as a player to make. Unless you really feel that endless grinding is some kind of super rewarding part of the game experience? Also, how is this immoral exactly? Games and game systems change. I am sorry its not D2 with better graphics, but its been designed as intended. It does not make the game bad, it makes the game not for you.

     I don't want to see a point in gaming where there isn't a point in playing anymore when you can unlock and do everything by pressing the "confirm payment" button.  I prefer the system where if you want to gain/unlock/achieve something, you have to do it by playing, not paying.

     Stop playing games for the reward and play them because you enjoy the gameplay perhaps? For every game ever there has been cheat codes, hacks, etc. Much like the piracy you claim that only a few use, many more players employ them than you seem to realize.

    It seems like another case of "devs say its good, it must be good!"

    No. Its good because its something that the industry needs. The cost of game development has skyrocketed. A single artist easily costs as much as $10k per month in salary and software licenses alone. Many of the players really need to stop looking at the billion dollar a year mark and start actually looking at the net values, cause honestly they are not very high. Especially when you consider the outside investment people who are wanting/expecting a much higher return for their capital. Unless we, the players, really want to see that money go elsewhere these are things that must happen.

     

    I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

    To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

  • kadepsysonkadepsyson sun prairie, WIPosts: 1,937Member
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
     

    "Hi and welcome back to the biggest Starcraft 3 tournament yet!  The grand prize is 50,000,000 to the winner, and we are here bringing it to you live.  We're at a very close point, final seconds people, both teams have significant forces attack the others last buildings.  It's come down to this, whichever one loses their buildings first loses out on the 50 million dollar prize!  OH and in a sudden move the Red Team just swiped their credit card, getting all their buildings repaired instantly!  Remember, Blizzard allows this for their game so it is allowed!  And that's it!  Red Team is the winner!"

    Personally I think you'd be the first fan up to Red Team congratulating them on their skillful win and seeing nothing wrong with that because Blizzard said it was ok :)

     

     

    Also, not everyone pirates games.  Always on DRM punishes everyone for it.

    If Diablo 3 had the amazing gameplay, instead of altering it to encourage use of the auction house, then I'd be happier.

    El Psy Congroo

  • PsychowPsychow SF Giants Territory, CAPosts: 1,784Member
    Originally posted by kadepsyson
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
     

    "Hi and welcome back to the biggest Starcraft 3 tournament yet!  The grand prize is 50,000,000 to the winner, and we are here bringing it to you live.  We're at a very close point, final seconds people, both teams have significant forces attack the others last buildings.  It's come down to this, whichever one loses their buildings first loses out on the 50 million dollar prize!  OH and in a sudden move the Red Team just swiped their credit card, getting all their buildings repaired instantly!  Remember, Blizzard allows this for their game so it is allowed!  And that's it!  Red Team is the winner!"

    Personally I think you'd be the first fan up to Red Team congratulating them on their skillful win and seeing nothing wrong with that because Blizzard said it was ok :)

     

     

    Also, not everyone pirates games.  Always on DRM punishes everyone for it.

    If Diablo 3 had the amazing gameplay, instead of altering it to encourage use of the auction house, then I'd be happier.

     

    Not everyone steals bank accounts, but we all suffer by having to rember pin numbers. Stupid banks...damn them!!

  • redcappredcapp brook, NYPosts: 722Member
    The last paragraph of what was quoted in the OP is very noble.  That said, I lol'd when he 'gauranteed' we'd enjoy his future designs.
  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member
    Originally posted by zymurgeist

    If you're "forced" to trade you must suck at the game. I've never had any great  difficulty  doing anything in the game without ever using the auction house. There are no must have items. You just can't faceroll inferno though.

     

    I didn't say must have or that I had any problems playing the game. I did however play diablo 2 where it was fun to find my own " best" items in the game...as a drop..from things I actually killed.

    The point of a loot farming game is to find your own loot, not buy it from an AH. If I wanted to do that I'd play real life.

  • jimdandy26jimdandy26 salem, ORPosts: 527Member
    Originally posted by kadepsyson
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
     

    "Hi and welcome back to the biggest Starcraft 3 tournament yet!  The grand prize is 50,000,000 to the winner, and we are here bringing it to you live.  We're at a very close point, final seconds people, both teams have significant forces attack the others last buildings.  It's come down to this, whichever one loses their buildings first loses out on the 50 million dollar prize!  OH and in a sudden move the Red Team just swiped their credit card, getting all their buildings repaired instantly!  Remember, Blizzard allows this for their game so it is allowed!  And that's it!  Red Team is the winner!"

    Personally I think you'd be the first fan up to Red Team congratulating them on their skillful win and seeing nothing wrong with that because Blizzard said it was ok :)

     Yay! Now the personal attacks begin! For someone who implies they think for themself you certainly don't. There is no logical tie between the RMAH and what you describe above. Unless you really want to attempt to say that D3 was also designed as an Esport. They are designed in different ways to meet different needs and wants. 

    Also, not everyone pirates games.  Always on DRM punishes everyone for it.

    Always on DRM really has nothing to do with the discusion, and really has its own set of both positives and negatives. I will say though that some of those things on your list you honestly have no right to expect from any game company, and the fact that you have been granted the privilage in the past was do to many other factors, with many of the positive outcomes being a complete surprise.

    If Diablo 3 had the amazing gameplay, instead of altering it to encourage use of the auction house, then I'd be happier.

    This is assuming of course that D3 ever had that "amazing" gameplay you wanted. I do however find it hilarious that for all of the whining about "wanting something different" from the games industry in general, every time they actually make changes and DO something different there are a legion of players just like you throwing an absolute shit fit and demonizing them for it. I get it, I do. You wanted D2, but "better", and you did not get what you wanted so let the fit commence. Considering all of the rest of the compaints, about the switching of gears in how the story is told, the general changing of themes etc D3 is more a reimagining of the Diablo franchise than a true sequal, which is fine. You may have cause to be upset about the false marketing then, or even that the story is poor. But to make claims that the gameplay was once amazing and is now ruined by this or that is insane unless you were one of the developers.

     

    I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

    To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member
    Originally posted by jimdandy26

    This is assuming of course that D3 ever had that "amazing" gameplay you wanted. I do however find it hilarious that for all of the whining about "wanting something different" from the games industry in general, every time they actually make changes and DO something different there are a legion of players just like you throwing an absolute shit fit and demonizing them for it. I get it, I do. You wanted D2, but "better", and you did not get what you wanted so let the fit commence. Considering all of the rest of the compaints, about the switching of gears in how the story is told, the general changing of themes etc D3 is more a reimagining of the Diablo franchise than a true sequal, which is fine. You may have cause to be upset about the false marketing then, or even that the story is poor. But to make claims that the gameplay was once amazing and is now ruined by this or that is insane unless you were one of the developers.

     

    I don't think the first part of this is really fair to say in this situation. Players who want new and innovative aren't lining up to play diablo part 3. They want new and inovative games.

    People lining up to play a part 3 are looking for updated game play and a continuation of the story being told. If they played part 1 and 2 they don't really want the wheel reinvented on them. I think the devs frogot what made diablo great and tried to be inovative.

    A good example of this is buying your grandparents the newest car with all the gadgets and them never wanting to drive it because it doesn't even have a place to put the keys and the damn thing keeps talking at me!.

    If it wasn't broke they shouldn't have tried to fix it is what most fans are really trying to say I guess.

  • jimdandy26jimdandy26 salem, ORPosts: 527Member
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by jimdandy26

    This is assuming of course that D3 ever had that "amazing" gameplay you wanted. I do however find it hilarious that for all of the whining about "wanting something different" from the games industry in general, every time they actually make changes and DO something different there are a legion of players just like you throwing an absolute shit fit and demonizing them for it. I get it, I do. You wanted D2, but "better", and you did not get what you wanted so let the fit commence. Considering all of the rest of the compaints, about the switching of gears in how the story is told, the general changing of themes etc D3 is more a reimagining of the Diablo franchise than a true sequal, which is fine. You may have cause to be upset about the false marketing then, or even that the story is poor. But to make claims that the gameplay was once amazing and is now ruined by this or that is insane unless you were one of the developers.

     

    I don't think the first part of this is really fair to say in this situation. Players who want new and innovative aren't lining up to play diablo part 3. They want new and inovative games.

    People lining up to play a part 3 are looking for updated game play and a continuation of the story being told. If they played part 1 and 2 they don't really want the wheel reinvented on them. I think the devs frogot what made diablo great and tried to be inovative.

    A good example of this is buying your grandparents the newest car with all the gadgets and them never wanting to drive it because it doesn't even have a place to put the keys and the damn thing keeps talking at me!.

    If it wasn't broke they shouldn't have tried to fix it is what most fans are really trying to say I guess.

    Based on sales comparisons alone I would disagree with that assessment. But even if it were true the attitude that "we pay your salaries, you have to do what WE say" is absolute bullshit. Again, unless you want to make the claim of false advertising its not up to the players to make any of the claims you attribute to them.

    I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

    To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

  • kadepsysonkadepsyson sun prairie, WIPosts: 1,937Member
    Originally posted by Psychow

    Not everyone steals bank accounts, but we all suffer by having to rember pin numbers. Stupid banks...damn them!!

    To relate this in Diablo terms:

    If I wanted to store my money, I could go to a bank.  They'd store it there, and I'd have to remember things to get at it.  (this is like closed battle net, characters stored online, remember account info)

    If I wanted to I could instead bury my money in a trunk in the backyard.  I wouldn't have to remember a PIN, but it wouldn't be as secure.  (This is like characters stored on your hard drive.  Lost if you lose your computer or drive fails, but doesn't require going to an online server.)

     

    So yes, I still feel that I should have the option for single player, LAN, and a more secure battle net.  It should be an option, like in Diablo 2, not do this or else, like Diablo 3.

     

     

    Also, for jim dandy - I wasn't saying Diablo 3 was an esport.  I was showing the dangers of a future of continued legal RMT and a possible consequence.  I'm sorry if you couldn't make that leap, but hopefully I helped you along by explaining it here.

    You say DRM has nothing to do with the discussion, but you brought it up :)  I'll link you your post if you want, or you can edit it, whatever you want.

    As far as amazing gameplay, no I do not believe D3 ever had it.  That was why I was referring to Diablo 2 as the better game.  I do want innovation and change, but in a good direction.  Such as with Path of Exile's innovations and ethics, and Torchlight 2 with its single player and modding.  Two recent examples (one isn't even out yet) of the games industry making changes and I love the changes made.  So no I wasn't a developer, I was meaning the changes from Diablo 2 to Diablo 3.  Glad to clear that up for you as well :)

    El Psy Congroo

  • VannorVannor YorkshirePosts: 2,969Member Uncommon
    I like the game. Best combat in an ARPG ever imo. It definately lacks content though and that's the only reason I don't play it on a regular basis. If they use theirs heads with the expansion and put in more randomly generated stuff instead of focuses on a linear type story it could be something amazing.
  • kadepsysonkadepsyson sun prairie, WIPosts: 1,937Member
    Originally posted by Vannor
    I like the game. Best combat in an ARPG ever imo. It definately lacks content though and that's the only reason I don't play it on a regular basis. If they use theirs heads with the expansion and put in more randomly generated stuff instead of focuses on a linear type story it could be something amazing.

    Your post reminded me of Sacred 2.  Mainly because of the huge number of quests, massive world to run through, two different campaigns, and an expansion I haven't tried yet which adds even more.

    Think I'll download that, could be fun.  Last time I played it it was fun, and it didn't become non-functional for periods of time that result in my character being dead when the game started to function again Diablo 3 style.

    El Psy Congroo

  • DAOWAceDAOWAce Flanders, NJPosts: 139Member Uncommon

    I'm glad I only paid $10 for the game.

    I knew before I even got into the beta that it wouldn't hold a candle to Diablo 2.

     

    Combat is basically the best part of the game; everything else is mediocre at best.

     

    Diablo 2.5 launches in 2 days (Path of Exile).  Great to see the progress the game has been made since I first played it (November 2011).  Been a while, but it'll be worth it.

  • ezpz77ezpz77 Beale, CAPosts: 227Member
    Originally posted by Rednecksith
    Originally posted by Myria
    Originally posted by Psychow
    Diablo 3 is...oh screw it. Enjoy your hatred forum people. It's what you enjoy most isn't it?

    Pretty much this.

    Know what, I agree. I could spend hours of my life and pages of text pointing out the misconceptions, double standards, and outright lies the hate train spouts about D3, but I'm done.

    What's important is that many people still enjoy the game, love where it's going, and will continue to play for a long time. Others have their little niche game (which isn't bad BTW) and I have mine.

     

    Have to agree with this. Especially Psychow's post.

  • argos5argos5 Los Angeles, CAPosts: 227Member
    Originally posted by Greatsword
    Fuck that loser...

    LMAO!!! one of the greatest quotes from a Blizzard Employee, when the original Diablo creator remarked about Diablo 3. was it Rob that said "Fuck that loser..." XD

  • SilverchildSilverchild Grand-Mere, QCPosts: 118Member

    Problem with D3 is that it was literally built around the AH.

    It feels like, at every step, maximizing profits for the RMAH was a core design goal. At the end, the game just doesnt feel right for me.

     

    "lol just dont use the ah if you dont like it" > Doesnt work like that. They messed up the loot tables of everyone just to encourage people to use it. Bashiok (if i remember correctly) admitted it in a blue post.

     

    Oh, also, for those pro-rmah : Please explain to me why blizzard shouldnt start selling speedhacks and maphacks for all their games. I mean, people are going to hack anyway.... why not make some money from it? Wouldnt hurt anyone, would it?

  • ThomasN7ThomasN7 87.18.7.148 1, NJPosts: 6,690Member
    I guess this officially makes Diabo 3 a failure. I'm sad really because i love the franchise but the steps they took forward with Diablo 3 sure ruined the Diablo name. I never thought this would happen to such a great franchise, or should I say once was great.
    30
  • kadepsysonkadepsyson sun prairie, WIPosts: 1,937Member
    Originally posted by Normandy7
    I guess this officially makes Diabo 3 a failure. I'm sad really because i love the franchise but the steps they took forward with Diablo 3 sure ruined the Diablo name. I never thought this would happen to such a great franchise, or should I say once was great.

    A disservice to fans of the franchise perhaps, but not a financial failure.  With the money Blizzard gains from expensive box sales, and the stream of income from its allowed Real Money Trading, it is doing pretty nice with its plan to make the most money no matter what anyone thinks.

    El Psy Congroo

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