They dismissed feedback for years prior to release with an attitude of "we know best" and "people are looking at diablo 2 with rose tinted goggles", they didn't have a proper beta to get feedback. Then they released this flawed game with a RMAH, ofcourse people who made the decisions are going to get criticised.
Writing "fuck that loser" directed at the creator of diablo 2 doesn't make you more popular either. He deserves no sympathy imo.
Originally posted by jimdandy26 RMAH existed for D2. It existed for Uo, and Eq, and Daoc. It even existed in one form or another for Wow and virtually every other game that has had something that someone else wants. Blizzard did a smart thing and not only monetized it for themselves, but actually took it into account. Of all the bad things that D3 did, the RMAH is not one of them.
Yeah. Great.
They decided to cash in on real money trading instead of banning people for doing it.
There still are people who use third party sites for RMT in Diablo 3. Still bots that advertise it.
All Blizzard did was cash in on RMT.
You can't defend the RMAH when some people say cash shops are fine only if cosmetic well guess what D3 is full on pay to win and IMHO it's a horrible way to have any game. No way I want to play something that is just about who has more money to throw away on virtual items.
But thats not what p2w even means! Pay to win is what happens when those who spend money have an advantage over those who do not. Trading time for money is nowhere near the same thing, no matter how many of you argue that it is. I mean look at MMOdad, his entire angry rant is because he did something he obviously did not enjoy so he could pwn noobs when a new feature launched. He is pissed off because all that time he spent to get that advantage is "easily" done by others for "less work". I have no sympathy for him in the slightest.
So the people who buy items for real money the likes of which I may never see outside of the auction house do not have an advantage when they PVP me?
How is upgrading your equipment for real money not an advantage?
How is saving hundreds of hours of searching and having a chance to find an upgrade by opening your wallet not an advantage?
Do you honestly believe that buying equipment and saving tons of time is not an advantage?
Originally posted by kadepsyson Originally posted by jimdandy26Originally posted by nildenOriginally posted by kadepsysonOriginally posted by jimdandy26RMAH existed for D2. It existed for Uo, and Eq, and Daoc. It even existed in one form or another for Wow and virtually every other game that has had something that someone else wants. Blizzard did a smart thing and not only monetized it for themselves, but actually took it into account. Of all the bad things that D3 did, the RMAH is not one of them.
Yeah. Great.They decided to cash in on real money trading instead of banning people for doing it.There still are people who use third party sites for RMT in Diablo 3. Still bots that advertise it.All Blizzard did was cash in on RMT.You can't defend the RMAH when some people say cash shops are fine only if cosmetic well guess what D3 is full on pay to win and IMHO it's a horrible way to have any game. No way I want to play something that is just about who has more money to throw away on virtual items.But thats not what p2w even means! Pay to win is what happens when those who spend money have an advantage over those who do not. Trading time for money is nowhere near the same thing, no matter how many of you argue that it is. I mean look at MMOdad, his entire angry rant is because he did something he obviously did not enjoy so he could pwn noobs when a new feature launched. He is pissed off because all that time he spent to get that advantage is "easily" done by others for "less work". I have no sympathy for him in the slightest.So the people who buy items for real money the likes of which I may never see outside of the auction house do not have an advantage when they PVP me?
How is upgrading your equipment for real money not an advantage?
How is saving hundreds of hours of searching and having a chance to find an upgrade by opening your wallet not an advantage?
Do you honestly believe that buying equipment and saving tons of time is not an advantage?
Wouldn't PvP have to exist in the game in the first place for that argument to make sense?
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by jimdandy26RMAH existed for D2. It existed for Uo, and Eq, and Daoc. It even existed in one form or another for Wow and virtually every other game that has had something that someone else wants. Blizzard did a smart thing and not only monetized it for themselves, but actually took it into account. Of all the bad things that D3 did, the RMAH is not one of them.
Yeah. Great.They decided to cash in on real money trading instead of banning people for doing it.There still are people who use third party sites for RMT in Diablo 3. Still bots that advertise it.All Blizzard did was cash in on RMT.
You can't defend the RMAH when some people say cash shops are fine only if cosmetic well guess what D3 is full on pay to win and IMHO it's a horrible way to have any game. No way I want to play something that is just about who has more money to throw away on virtual items.
But thats not what p2w even means! Pay to win is what happens when those who spend money have an advantage over those who do not. Trading time for money is nowhere near the same thing, no matter how many of you argue that it is. I mean look at MMOdad, his entire angry rant is because he did something he obviously did not enjoy so he could pwn noobs when a new feature launched. He is pissed off because all that time he spent to get that advantage is "easily" done by others for "less work". I have no sympathy for him in the slightest.
So the people who buy items for real money the likes of which I may never see outside of the auction house do not have an advantage when they PVP me?
How is upgrading your equipment for real money not an advantage?
How is saving hundreds of hours of searching and having a chance to find an upgrade by opening your wallet not an advantage?
Do you honestly believe that buying equipment and saving tons of time is not an advantage?
Wouldn't PvP have to exist in the game in the first place for that argument to make sense?
Whether duels are PVP could be debatable. However there are duels on the test realm, and coming shortly to live once the patch being tested is sent to live servers.
Originally posted by jimdandy26RMAH existed for D2. It existed for Uo, and Eq, and Daoc. It even existed in one form or another for Wow and virtually every other game that has had something that someone else wants. Blizzard did a smart thing and not only monetized it for themselves, but actually took it into account. Of all the bad things that D3 did, the RMAH is not one of them.
Yeah. Great.They decided to cash in on real money trading instead of banning people for doing it.There still are people who use third party sites for RMT in Diablo 3. Still bots that advertise it.All Blizzard did was cash in on RMT.
You can't defend the RMAH when some people say cash shops are fine only if cosmetic well guess what D3 is full on pay to win and IMHO it's a horrible way to have any game. No way I want to play something that is just about who has more money to throw away on virtual items.
But thats not what p2w even means! Pay to win is what happens when those who spend money have an advantage over those who do not. Trading time for money is nowhere near the same thing, no matter how many of you argue that it is. I mean look at MMOdad, his entire angry rant is because he did something he obviously did not enjoy so he could pwn noobs when a new feature launched. He is pissed off because all that time he spent to get that advantage is "easily" done by others for "less work". I have no sympathy for him in the slightest.
So the people who buy items for real money the likes of which I may never see outside of the auction house do not have an advantage when they PVP me?
How is upgrading your equipment for real money not an advantage?
How is saving hundreds of hours of searching and having a chance to find an upgrade by opening your wallet not an advantage?
Do you honestly believe that buying equipment and saving tons of time is not an advantage?
Wouldn't PvP have to exist in the game in the first place for that argument to make sense?
Whether duels are PVP could be debatable. However there are duels on the test realm, and coming shortly to live once the patch being tested is sent to live servers.
So what now.
So we are judging a game on duels now are we? Really?
So we are judging a game on duels now are we? Really?
Lame
No. I have no idea where you got that from because it is so far from what has been said.
I was actually talking about design decisions including the Real Money Auction House. You know, where Blizzard decided to cash in on Real Money Trading - normally a bannable action in other online games.
I don't judge Diablo based on duels, and if your critical thinking skills lead you to believe that, well, then I agree with the last word in your post I quoted.
All these people complaining about RMAH are forgetting, or never experienced, the 3rd party item shops of D2. Anyone remember when a Windforce was going for damn near 600$? Anyone? Sure nowadays D2 items are pennies but back then I believe MORE players were buying their items than what we have now in D3 with the RMAH.
Either way, it doesn't matter what game it is, if there is an option to buy items for an advantage, there is always going to be that crowd that will do so. This is not the reason D3 fails. D3 fails because the story, itemization, and gameplay are just lacking for what we would expect from a Blizzard game. It has forever tainted the Diablo name.
All these people complaining about RMAH are forgetting, or never experienced, the 3rd party item shops of D2. Anyone remember when a Windforce was going for damn near 600$? Anyone? Sure nowadays D2 items are pennies but back then I believe MORE players were buying their items than what we have now in D3 with the RMAH.
Either way, it doesn't matter what game it is, if there is an option to buy items for an advantage, there is always going to be that crowd that will do so. This is not the reason D3 fails. D3 fails because the story, itemization, and gameplay are just lacking for what we would expect from a Blizzard game. It has forever tainted the Diablo name.
No, I never did notice the price of a windforce while playing Diablo 2. Perhaps that was because it wasn't listed in the game Diablo 2. Perhaps it was because I didn't break the terms of service and engage in Real Money Trading.
Sure there are people who want to pay to get ahead in a game. So let them get banned and don't try to turn RMT into the norm.
It's like Blizzard said "We can't stop all the RMT, so let's just give in and do it too." That's not unethical greed to you guys?
To me it cheapens a games experience when things that can be earned through gameplay can just be outright purchased instead.
So the people who buy items for real money the likes of which I may never see outside of the auction house do not have an advantage when they PVP me?
How is upgrading your equipment for real money not an advantage?
How is saving hundreds of hours of searching and having a chance to find an upgrade by opening your wallet not an advantage?
Do you honestly believe that buying equipment and saving tons of time is not an advantage?
Its one of the better ways to put two people on the same footing. Or are you really going to dismiss the other side of that argument for those who have time to farm essentially infinitely and those who do not? Also keep in mind that the RMAH is an extremely elegent solution. Not only does this stop third party sales, with all of the hacked accounts that go with it, but this also ensures a new cash cow for the company. Much like how Plex is such a great solution to deal with rmt, this is another, and one that benefits many players.
Originally posted by kadepsyson
No, I never did notice the price of a windforce while playing Diablo 2. Perhaps that was because it wasn't listed in the game Diablo 2. Perhaps it was because I didn't break the terms of service and engage in Real Money Trading.
Sure there are people who want to pay to get ahead in a game. So let them get banned and don't try to turn RMT into the norm.
It's like Blizzard said "We can't stop all the RMT, so let's just give in and do it too." That's not unethical greed to you guys?
To me it cheapens a games experience when things that can be earned through gameplay can just be outright purchased instead.
And leave that market untapped? Keep in mind that ever dollar that Blizzard takes is one that is not going overseas, meaning as the market gets smaller fewer and fewer will take part. The market will be filled regardless, I would rather see a nicely controlled one, where actual players have a chance to make a profit too, than to see that cash go to overseas funding the people who hack to nuke accounts.
I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.
To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.
So the people who buy items for real money the likes of which I may never see outside of the auction house do not have an advantage when they PVP me?
How is upgrading your equipment for real money not an advantage?
How is saving hundreds of hours of searching and having a chance to find an upgrade by opening your wallet not an advantage?
Do you honestly believe that buying equipment and saving tons of time is not an advantage?
Its one of the better ways to put two people on the same footing. Or are you really going to dismiss the other side of that argument for those who have time to farm essentially infinitely and those who do not? Also keep in mind that the RMAH is an extremely elegent solution. Not only does this stop third party sales, with all of the hacked accounts that go with it, but this also ensures a new cash cow for the company. Much like how Plex is such a great solution to deal with rmt, this is another, and one that benefits many players.
Why would I want to dismiss that arguement? You know, the one where people playing the game should get rewards from their gameplay. Why would I be against playing a game to earn in game things?
You say it stops third party sales and hacked accounts, and I literally busted out laughing. I don't mean to be rude, but multiple times a day I have received friend requests in Diablo 3 that really are bots advertising their 3rd party RMT sites. People still buy those, people still lose control over their accounts. So yes, it didn't stop 3rd party RMT. People still do that, and still lose accounts, but now Blizzard does it too to cash in on the RMT.
Also, PLEX to me is horrible. Yes I can see the advantage of using in game money to fund your gametime. However, when a person can outright buy a character that has taken years to gain the skills it has, any ship available for sale, and pretty much any other market item, that is terrible. It cheapens the experience, including the risk vs reward PVP. Why care if you risk an expensive ship if you can just open your wallet and replace it?
So yes, I do not appreciate RMT, even when the developers use it to cash in on normally a bannable offense.
And leave that market untapped? Keep in mind that ever dollar that Blizzard takes is one that is not going overseas, meaning as the market gets smaller fewer and fewer will take part. The market will be filled regardless, I would rather see a nicely controlled one, where actual players have a chance to make a profit too, than to see that cash go to overseas funding the people who hack to nuke accounts.
There's also a market for cash shop random item packs. Pay 10 dollars and get a tiny chance at something awesome, but usually something mundane and worthless. Players have spent thousands individually on such things, maybe you should tell Blizzard about another untapped market for Diablo?
If it was nicely controlled, there wouldn't be people still going to third party sites for cheaper than Blizzard prices, or losing their accounts over such things. The only thing Blizzard has done with this is to make money off cheapening the game experience for everyone. They chose money over quality. They no longer see asian gold farmers as leeches on their game, but as their competitors.
So the people who buy items for real money the likes of which I may never see outside of the auction house do not have an advantage when they PVP me?
How is upgrading your equipment for real money not an advantage?
How is saving hundreds of hours of searching and having a chance to find an upgrade by opening your wallet not an advantage?
Do you honestly believe that buying equipment and saving tons of time is not an advantage?
Its one of the better ways to put two people on the same footing. Or are you really going to dismiss the other side of that argument for those who have time to farm essentially infinitely and those who do not? Also keep in mind that the RMAH is an extremely elegent solution. Not only does this stop third party sales, with all of the hacked accounts that go with it, but this also ensures a new cash cow for the company. Much like how Plex is such a great solution to deal with rmt, this is another, and one that benefits many players.
Originally posted by kadepsyson Originally posted by lizardbonesOriginally posted by kadepsysonOriginally posted by jimdandy26Originally posted by nildenOriginally posted by kadepsysonOriginally posted by jimdandy26RMAH existed for D2. It existed for Uo, and Eq, and Daoc. It even existed in one form or another for Wow and virtually every other game that has had something that someone else wants. Blizzard did a smart thing and not only monetized it for themselves, but actually took it into account. Of all the bad things that D3 did, the RMAH is not one of them.
Yeah. Great.They decided to cash in on real money trading instead of banning people for doing it.There still are people who use third party sites for RMT in Diablo 3. Still bots that advertise it.All Blizzard did was cash in on RMT.You can't defend the RMAH when some people say cash shops are fine only if cosmetic well guess what D3 is full on pay to win and IMHO it's a horrible way to have any game. No way I want to play something that is just about who has more money to throw away on virtual items.But thats not what p2w even means! Pay to win is what happens when those who spend money have an advantage over those who do not. Trading time for money is nowhere near the same thing, no matter how many of you argue that it is. I mean look at MMOdad, his entire angry rant is because he did something he obviously did not enjoy so he could pwn noobs when a new feature launched. He is pissed off because all that time he spent to get that advantage is "easily" done by others for "less work". I have no sympathy for him in the slightest.So the people who buy items for real money the likes of which I may never see outside of the auction house do not have an advantage when they PVP me?How is upgrading your equipment for real money not an advantage?How is saving hundreds of hours of searching and having a chance to find an upgrade by opening your wallet not an advantage?Do you honestly believe that buying equipment and saving tons of time is not an advantage?Wouldn't PvP have to exist in the game in the first place for that argument to make sense?Whether duels are PVP could be debatable. However there are duels on the test realm, and coming shortly to live once the patch being tested is sent to live servers.
So what now.
I would say that duels, unless they come with some kind of reward aren't worth bothering about.
For other types of PvP, it all just depends.
How much difference does the auction house gear make? From the people I've talked to, the difference is minimal. It does make a difference, but it's not the difference between killing a boss or not killing a boss, so I would think it won't make the difference between killing a player and not killing a player. In order for it to be Pay2Win, the player needs to be able to gain a distinct or decisive advantage by spending money.
How will players face each other in PvP? How will the players be ranked? If an advantage is possible through buying gear out of the AH, is the advantage long term or short term? That depends on how much D3's PvP is skill dependent and how much it depends on gear, in addition to how players are ranked to face each other. We only have dueling to go on right now, so it's hard to say how it will play out. Perhaps there will be perks obtainable through PvP, that cannot be bought in the AH. Those players who PvP and are good, regardless of gear will get the perks. Of course, I'm just making that up, but we need to see how it's going to play out before saying it's Pay2Win.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I would say that duels, unless they come with some kind of reward aren't worth bothering about.
For other types of PvP, it all just depends.
How much difference does the auction house gear make? From the people I've talked to, the difference is minimal. It does make a difference, but it's not the difference between killing a boss or not killing a boss, so I would think it won't make the difference between killing a player and not killing a player. In order for it to be Pay2Win, the player needs to be able to gain a distinct or decisive advantage by spending money.
How will players face each other in PvP? How will the players be ranked? If an advantage is possible through buying gear out of the AH, is the advantage long term or short term? That depends on how much D3's PvP is skill dependent and how much it depends on gear, in addition to how players are ranked to face each other. We only have dueling to go on right now, so it's hard to say how it will play out. Perhaps there will be perks obtainable through PvP, that cannot be bought in the AH. Those players who PvP and are good, regardless of gear will get the perks. Of course, I'm just making that up, but we need to see how it's going to play out before saying it's Pay2Win.
This quote got messed up with formatting, but anyways.
I agree that duels are not much to write home about. I believe they are by definition a form of PVP combat, but without any reward or stake they're just meh to me.
However, I am fairly certain I could double my character's health and damage by opening my wallet. With how many times I have come very close to killing a boss, having even 50% more health and damage would have easily clinched it for me. Also, with adjustable Monster Power that provide higher rewards the harder the monsters get, it becomes more apparent. For example, a certain boss fight on Monster Power 1 caused me some significant struggle a while ago. After upgrading my gear through gameplay, I was able to defeat it. The monster power goes up to 10, and I am nowhere near that yet. If I opened my wallet, I could jump up to higher rewards immediately. Same bosses, but paying money gets me the ability to defeat them on a harder mode, and get more rewards for it.
I don't see how the length of an advantage or whether there is any kind of ranking changes the fact that it is still an advantage.
Even if RMT bought gear gets you enough advantage to win just one PVP fight with no reward or perk, that was still an advantage.
Why would I want to dismiss that arguement? You know, the one where people playing the game should get rewards from their gameplay. Why would I be against playing a game to earn in game things?
So time spent should assure victory? You do realize that no matter how the other person recieved their gear it does not diminish your rewards right? Unless you are talking about actual competition and not just ganking and feeling like a pro.
You say it stops third party sales and hacked accounts, and I literally busted out laughing. I don't mean to be rude, but multiple times a day I have received friend requests in Diablo 3 that really are bots advertising their 3rd party RMT sites. People still buy those, people still lose control over their accounts. So yes, it didn't stop 3rd party RMT. People still do that, and still lose accounts, but now Blizzard does it too to cash in on the RMT.
Also, PLEX to me is horrible. Yes I can see the advantage of using in game money to fund your gametime. However, when a person can outright buy a character that has taken years to gain the skills it has, any ship available for sale, and pretty much any other market item, that is terrible. It cheapens the experience, including the risk vs reward PVP. Why care if you risk an expensive ship if you can just open your wallet and replace it?
I never said it stopped it. It does however take a rather drastic chunk out of it. Much like the always online DRM is in an effort to combat piracy. Also, good luck just opening your wallet and replacing any of the even halfway expensive ships in Eve.
So yes, I do not appreciate RMT, even when the developers use it to cash in on normally a bannable offense.
Do you know why it was bannable? I mean I see you hiding behind the rules without even understanding why they exist. The offense was bannable due to a couple of factors. The biggest one is legal. You do not own your character in any way. To allow you to do so opens up issues with both players rights and copyright. This is why other games such as Second Life and Project Entropia are set up the way they are. The lesser is of course, the publisher was not able to get their cut, or control it in any way. Some developers (UO) actually saw it as a way to keep an eye on the game and saw it as an oddity. It was not until later when they started seeing an actual out of game economy sprout from it (and with it the infamous Chinese Farmer) that companies really cracked down on it. It very much is a case of "if you can't beat em, join em". It is a war that as a publisher costs you tons of money to fight, and you simply cannot win. So yes, RMAH, developer controlled, is very much the better way go about it. With this as a blueprint be prepared to see other games start adopting it.
I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.
To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.
Originally posted by Psychow I never had any intention of PvPing on D3. I guess I'm a story fanboy and thus D3 is an amazingly good game...to me.
Exactly how I feel. Thanks for stating it so succinctly.
I do not understand how you can say it is amazingly good? That just does not compute. In Diablo II, you could basically equip your avatar with decent equipment just by playing without spending huge hours doing so. Completely NOT possible with Diablo III. I hate having to use the auction house, much rather find things myself, but when a level 60 avatar gets yellow items in the 30's in a hell game, it really illustrates how badly broken the itemization is. I just checked, I have 287 hours in the game on all my characters, and NOT ONE legendary drop ever. The game is just broken and I just cannot believe anyone has fun playing it compared to the fun in Diablo II.
If I had an employee do such a bad job on upgrading a system, they would be looking for another job.
Long time Diablo 1 & 2 player who was looking forward to this game. Never have been so disappointed in a game before. Worst itemization I have seen. Drops were horrid, the only way to equip your character was off the auction house. Sorry, rather find my equipment. Hence I gave the game to my son, who soon ditched it too.
The pvp never materialized and the patches do little to fix the game. Heck I would have accepted a graphically updated Diablo II over this any day in the week.
So yeah, Jay Wilson basically blew it. Anyone attempting to say nice things about the job he did, did not play the game much.
You do realise the items on the AH were found by REAL players, make up your mind - you say the only good items are on the AH (all of which are found in game) yet you prefer to find the items yourself, then play the damn game and find the items, put the time and effort in. Talk about a Contradiction.
I think it too took guts for blizzard to do what they did with the PvP, they were not happy to release something they thought was subpar, yes blizzard has dragged their feet but what you you prefer?
Its not a conflict at all. Players put them up on the AH to sell because they were no use to them. It's fairly clear the way loot was handled, players were encouraged to use the AH or the RMAH because they loot they'd find was almost never useful to the person who found it.
A player who didn't want to have anything to do with the AH Gold or RM, and just play and find great loot was going to be disappointed.
Originally posted by Psychow I never had any intention of PvPing on D3. I guess I'm a story fanboy and thus D3 is an amazingly good game...to me.
Exactly how I feel. Thanks for stating it so succinctly.
I do not understand how you can say it is amazingly good? That just does not compute. In Diablo II, you could basically equip your avatar with decent equipment just by playing without spending huge hours doing so. Completely NOT possible with Diablo III. I hate having to use the auction house, much rather find things myself, but when a level 60 avatar gets yellow items in the 30's in a hell game, it really illustrates how badly broken the itemization is. I just checked, I have 287 hours in the game on all my characters, and NOT ONE legendary drop ever. The game is just broken and I just cannot believe anyone has fun playing it compared to the fun in Diablo II.
If I had an employee do such a bad job on upgrading a system, they would be looking for another job.
It's not broken by any means. It is exactly the way it was desined to be, and that is, it encourages trade between players.
Originally posted by Psychow I never had any intention of PvPing on D3. I guess I'm a story fanboy and thus D3 is an amazingly good game...to me.
Exactly how I feel. Thanks for stating it so succinctly.
I do not understand how you can say it is amazingly good? That just does not compute. In Diablo II, you could basically equip your avatar with decent equipment just by playing without spending huge hours doing so. Completely NOT possible with Diablo III. I hate having to use the auction house, much rather find things myself, but when a level 60 avatar gets yellow items in the 30's in a hell game, it really illustrates how badly broken the itemization is. I just checked, I have 287 hours in the game on all my characters, and NOT ONE legendary drop ever. The game is just broken and I just cannot believe anyone has fun playing it compared to the fun in Diablo II.
If I had an employee do such a bad job on upgrading a system, they would be looking for another job.
It's not broken by any means. It is exactly the way it was desined to be, and that is, it encourages trade between players.
Yes, that is fine for players who want that. But what about the player who'd like the experience of playing and being rewarded with the loot they find? I'll grant you that dynamic isn't broken, it just been deliberately nearly removed from the game.
Why would I want to dismiss that arguement? You know, the one where people playing the game should get rewards from their gameplay. Why would I be against playing a game to earn in game things?
So time spent should assure victory? You do realize that no matter how the other person recieved their gear it does not diminish your rewards right? Unless you are talking about actual competition and not just ganking and feeling like a pro.
You say it stops third party sales and hacked accounts, and I literally busted out laughing. I don't mean to be rude, but multiple times a day I have received friend requests in Diablo 3 that really are bots advertising their 3rd party RMT sites. People still buy those, people still lose control over their accounts. So yes, it didn't stop 3rd party RMT. People still do that, and still lose accounts, but now Blizzard does it too to cash in on the RMT.
Also, PLEX to me is horrible. Yes I can see the advantage of using in game money to fund your gametime. However, when a person can outright buy a character that has taken years to gain the skills it has, any ship available for sale, and pretty much any other market item, that is terrible. It cheapens the experience, including the risk vs reward PVP. Why care if you risk an expensive ship if you can just open your wallet and replace it?
I never said it stopped it. It does however take a rather drastic chunk out of it. Much like the always online DRM is in an effort to combat piracy. Also, good luck just opening your wallet and replacing any of the even halfway expensive ships in Eve.
So yes, I do not appreciate RMT, even when the developers use it to cash in on normally a bannable offense.
Do you know why it was bannable? I mean I see you hiding behind the rules without even understanding why they exist. The offense was bannable due to a couple of factors. The biggest one is legal. You do not own your character in any way. To allow you to do so opens up issues with both players rights and copyright. This is why other games such as Second Life and Project Entropia are set up the way they are. The lesser is of course, the publisher was not able to get their cut, or control it in any way. Some developers (UO) actually saw it as a way to keep an eye on the game and saw it as an oddity. It was not until later when they started seeing an actual out of game economy sprout from it (and with it the infamous Chinese Farmer) that companies really cracked down on it. It very much is a case of "if you can't beat em, join em". It is a war that as a publisher costs you tons of money to fight, and you simply cannot win. So yes, RMAH, developer controlled, is very much the better way go about it. With this as a blueprint be prepared to see other games start adopting it.
Always on DRM? You mean the stuff that makes it so Diablo 3 cannot be played unless you have internet connection, and the Blizzard servers are on? How I can't mod the game to extend replayability, or to mess around with LAN friends? Yeah, that's a great feature too - one that diminishes the game for everyone to prevent something a few might do.
Also, with your bit about halfway expensive eve ships you pretty much proved my point more than yours. You're right, they would be freaking expensive in real money terms to replace. And not everyone can do that. Therefore, the ones who can, are paying for an advantage. BOOM.
I did enjoy how your justification at the end is "Hey we can't stop them from doing stuff we don't like, so we may as well just do it too and profit along the way"
To me it isn't about rules so much as it is about gameplay being diminished and ethical development.
I don't want to see a point in gaming where there isn't a point in playing anymore when you can unlock and do everything by pressing the "confirm payment" button. I prefer the system where if you want to gain/unlock/achieve something, you have to do it by playing, not paying.
It seems like another case of "devs say its good, it must be good!"
1 using diablo3 as an experiment in how they can "moneytize" Titan and maybe even wow. Put in a rmah, the design your entire bloody game around it - crappy loot drops, constant journeys back to town, various other gold sinks etc.. 2 letting 3 of your most talented d1 & d2 devs go of and make a better game, for less money.
Heh, I liked Diablo 1 and 2 but have never even played Diablo 3. Heard about the real money auction house before it launched and decided not have any part of that.
Originally posted by ShakyMo Unfair to blame this guy.
Blame the blizzard bosses for
1 using diablo3 as an experiment in how they can "moneytize" Titan and maybe even wow. Put in a rmah, the design your entire bloody game around it - crappy loot drops, constant journeys back to town, various other gold sinks etc.. 2 letting 3 of your most talented d1 & d2 devs go of and make a better game, for less money.
People move on and change jobs / careers every day. Why is this such a big issue in the video game industry. I have never once bought a game because "Bob" made it. I bought it on the games merits itself. Sure there are stars, but there are also up and comming stars that we don't know about.
If ShakyMo made a good game, I'd buy it, because th game was good. If the company subsequently let ShakyMo go and then made a new game with his replacement, I'd buy it if it was good. I wouldn't hold a grudge that my beloved ShakeyMo wasn't involved in the new game.
Comments
They dismissed feedback for years prior to release with an attitude of "we know best" and "people are looking at diablo 2 with rose tinted goggles", they didn't have a proper beta to get feedback. Then they released this flawed game with a RMAH, ofcourse people who made the decisions are going to get criticised.
Writing "fuck that loser" directed at the creator of diablo 2 doesn't make you more popular either. He deserves no sympathy imo.
So the people who buy items for real money the likes of which I may never see outside of the auction house do not have an advantage when they PVP me?
How is upgrading your equipment for real money not an advantage?
How is saving hundreds of hours of searching and having a chance to find an upgrade by opening your wallet not an advantage?
Do you honestly believe that buying equipment and saving tons of time is not an advantage?
You can't defend the RMAH when some people say cash shops are fine only if cosmetic well guess what D3 is full on pay to win and IMHO it's a horrible way to have any game. No way I want to play something that is just about who has more money to throw away on virtual items.
But thats not what p2w even means! Pay to win is what happens when those who spend money have an advantage over those who do not. Trading time for money is nowhere near the same thing, no matter how many of you argue that it is. I mean look at MMOdad, his entire angry rant is because he did something he obviously did not enjoy so he could pwn noobs when a new feature launched. He is pissed off because all that time he spent to get that advantage is "easily" done by others for "less work". I have no sympathy for him in the slightest.
So the people who buy items for real money the likes of which I may never see outside of the auction house do not have an advantage when they PVP me?
How is upgrading your equipment for real money not an advantage?
How is saving hundreds of hours of searching and having a chance to find an upgrade by opening your wallet not an advantage?
Do you honestly believe that buying equipment and saving tons of time is not an advantage?
Wouldn't PvP have to exist in the game in the first place for that argument to make sense?
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Whether duels are PVP could be debatable. However there are duels on the test realm, and coming shortly to live once the patch being tested is sent to live servers.
So what now.
So we are judging a game on duels now are we? Really?
Lame
No. I have no idea where you got that from because it is so far from what has been said.
I was actually talking about design decisions including the Real Money Auction House. You know, where Blizzard decided to cash in on Real Money Trading - normally a bannable action in other online games.
I don't judge Diablo based on duels, and if your critical thinking skills lead you to believe that, well, then I agree with the last word in your post I quoted.
All these people complaining about RMAH are forgetting, or never experienced, the 3rd party item shops of D2. Anyone remember when a Windforce was going for damn near 600$? Anyone? Sure nowadays D2 items are pennies but back then I believe MORE players were buying their items than what we have now in D3 with the RMAH.
Either way, it doesn't matter what game it is, if there is an option to buy items for an advantage, there is always going to be that crowd that will do so. This is not the reason D3 fails. D3 fails because the story, itemization, and gameplay are just lacking for what we would expect from a Blizzard game. It has forever tainted the Diablo name.
No, I never did notice the price of a windforce while playing Diablo 2. Perhaps that was because it wasn't listed in the game Diablo 2. Perhaps it was because I didn't break the terms of service and engage in Real Money Trading.
Sure there are people who want to pay to get ahead in a game. So let them get banned and don't try to turn RMT into the norm.
It's like Blizzard said "We can't stop all the RMT, so let's just give in and do it too." That's not unethical greed to you guys?
To me it cheapens a games experience when things that can be earned through gameplay can just be outright purchased instead.
Its one of the better ways to put two people on the same footing. Or are you really going to dismiss the other side of that argument for those who have time to farm essentially infinitely and those who do not? Also keep in mind that the RMAH is an extremely elegent solution. Not only does this stop third party sales, with all of the hacked accounts that go with it, but this also ensures a new cash cow for the company. Much like how Plex is such a great solution to deal with rmt, this is another, and one that benefits many players.
And leave that market untapped? Keep in mind that ever dollar that Blizzard takes is one that is not going overseas, meaning as the market gets smaller fewer and fewer will take part. The market will be filled regardless, I would rather see a nicely controlled one, where actual players have a chance to make a profit too, than to see that cash go to overseas funding the people who hack to nuke accounts.
I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.
To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.
Why would I want to dismiss that arguement? You know, the one where people playing the game should get rewards from their gameplay. Why would I be against playing a game to earn in game things?
You say it stops third party sales and hacked accounts, and I literally busted out laughing. I don't mean to be rude, but multiple times a day I have received friend requests in Diablo 3 that really are bots advertising their 3rd party RMT sites. People still buy those, people still lose control over their accounts. So yes, it didn't stop 3rd party RMT. People still do that, and still lose accounts, but now Blizzard does it too to cash in on the RMT.
Also, PLEX to me is horrible. Yes I can see the advantage of using in game money to fund your gametime. However, when a person can outright buy a character that has taken years to gain the skills it has, any ship available for sale, and pretty much any other market item, that is terrible. It cheapens the experience, including the risk vs reward PVP. Why care if you risk an expensive ship if you can just open your wallet and replace it?
So yes, I do not appreciate RMT, even when the developers use it to cash in on normally a bannable offense.
There's also a market for cash shop random item packs. Pay 10 dollars and get a tiny chance at something awesome, but usually something mundane and worthless. Players have spent thousands individually on such things, maybe you should tell Blizzard about another untapped market for Diablo?
If it was nicely controlled, there wouldn't be people still going to third party sites for cheaper than Blizzard prices, or losing their accounts over such things. The only thing Blizzard has done with this is to make money off cheapening the game experience for everyone. They chose money over quality. They no longer see asian gold farmers as leeches on their game, but as their competitors.
Your kidding right?
Cash cow is too good a word.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
You can't defend the RMAH when some people say cash shops are fine only if cosmetic well guess what D3 is full on pay to win and IMHO it's a horrible way to have any game. No way I want to play something that is just about who has more money to throw away on virtual items.
But thats not what p2w even means! Pay to win is what happens when those who spend money have an advantage over those who do not. Trading time for money is nowhere near the same thing, no matter how many of you argue that it is. I mean look at MMOdad, his entire angry rant is because he did something he obviously did not enjoy so he could pwn noobs when a new feature launched. He is pissed off because all that time he spent to get that advantage is "easily" done by others for "less work". I have no sympathy for him in the slightest.
So the people who buy items for real money the likes of which I may never see outside of the auction house do not have an advantage when they PVP me? How is upgrading your equipment for real money not an advantage? How is saving hundreds of hours of searching and having a chance to find an upgrade by opening your wallet not an advantage? Do you honestly believe that buying equipment and saving tons of time is not an advantage?
Wouldn't PvP have to exist in the game in the first place for that argument to make sense?
Whether duels are PVP could be debatable. However there are duels on the test realm, and coming shortly to live once the patch being tested is sent to live servers.
So what now.
I would say that duels, unless they come with some kind of reward aren't worth bothering about.
For other types of PvP, it all just depends.
How much difference does the auction house gear make? From the people I've talked to, the difference is minimal. It does make a difference, but it's not the difference between killing a boss or not killing a boss, so I would think it won't make the difference between killing a player and not killing a player. In order for it to be Pay2Win, the player needs to be able to gain a distinct or decisive advantage by spending money.
How will players face each other in PvP? How will the players be ranked? If an advantage is possible through buying gear out of the AH, is the advantage long term or short term? That depends on how much D3's PvP is skill dependent and how much it depends on gear, in addition to how players are ranked to face each other. We only have dueling to go on right now, so it's hard to say how it will play out. Perhaps there will be perks obtainable through PvP, that cannot be bought in the AH. Those players who PvP and are good, regardless of gear will get the perks. Of course, I'm just making that up, but we need to see how it's going to play out before saying it's Pay2Win.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
This quote got messed up with formatting, but anyways.
I agree that duels are not much to write home about. I believe they are by definition a form of PVP combat, but without any reward or stake they're just meh to me.
However, I am fairly certain I could double my character's health and damage by opening my wallet. With how many times I have come very close to killing a boss, having even 50% more health and damage would have easily clinched it for me. Also, with adjustable Monster Power that provide higher rewards the harder the monsters get, it becomes more apparent. For example, a certain boss fight on Monster Power 1 caused me some significant struggle a while ago. After upgrading my gear through gameplay, I was able to defeat it. The monster power goes up to 10, and I am nowhere near that yet. If I opened my wallet, I could jump up to higher rewards immediately. Same bosses, but paying money gets me the ability to defeat them on a harder mode, and get more rewards for it.
I don't see how the length of an advantage or whether there is any kind of ranking changes the fact that it is still an advantage.
Even if RMT bought gear gets you enough advantage to win just one PVP fight with no reward or perk, that was still an advantage.
I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.
To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.
I do not understand how you can say it is amazingly good? That just does not compute. In Diablo II, you could basically equip your avatar with decent equipment just by playing without spending huge hours doing so. Completely NOT possible with Diablo III. I hate having to use the auction house, much rather find things myself, but when a level 60 avatar gets yellow items in the 30's in a hell game, it really illustrates how badly broken the itemization is. I just checked, I have 287 hours in the game on all my characters, and NOT ONE legendary drop ever. The game is just broken and I just cannot believe anyone has fun playing it compared to the fun in Diablo II.
If I had an employee do such a bad job on upgrading a system, they would be looking for another job.
Its not a conflict at all. Players put them up on the AH to sell because they were no use to them. It's fairly clear the way loot was handled, players were encouraged to use the AH or the RMAH because they loot they'd find was almost never useful to the person who found it.
A player who didn't want to have anything to do with the AH Gold or RM, and just play and find great loot was going to be disappointed.
It's not broken by any means. It is exactly the way it was desined to be, and that is, it encourages trade between players.
Yes, that is fine for players who want that. But what about the player who'd like the experience of playing and being rewarded with the loot they find? I'll grant you that dynamic isn't broken, it just been deliberately nearly removed from the game.
Always on DRM? You mean the stuff that makes it so Diablo 3 cannot be played unless you have internet connection, and the Blizzard servers are on? How I can't mod the game to extend replayability, or to mess around with LAN friends? Yeah, that's a great feature too - one that diminishes the game for everyone to prevent something a few might do.
Also, with your bit about halfway expensive eve ships you pretty much proved my point more than yours. You're right, they would be freaking expensive in real money terms to replace. And not everyone can do that. Therefore, the ones who can, are paying for an advantage. BOOM.
I did enjoy how your justification at the end is "Hey we can't stop them from doing stuff we don't like, so we may as well just do it too and profit along the way"
To me it isn't about rules so much as it is about gameplay being diminished and ethical development.
I don't want to see a point in gaming where there isn't a point in playing anymore when you can unlock and do everything by pressing the "confirm payment" button. I prefer the system where if you want to gain/unlock/achieve something, you have to do it by playing, not paying.
It seems like another case of "devs say its good, it must be good!"
Blame the blizzard bosses for
1 using diablo3 as an experiment in how they can "moneytize" Titan and maybe even wow. Put in a rmah, the design your entire bloody game around it - crappy loot drops, constant journeys back to town, various other gold sinks etc..
2 letting 3 of your most talented d1 & d2 devs go of and make a better game, for less money.
Hell....
Its about time!
People move on and change jobs / careers every day. Why is this such a big issue in the video game industry. I have never once bought a game because "Bob" made it. I bought it on the games merits itself. Sure there are stars, but there are also up and comming stars that we don't know about.
If ShakyMo made a good game, I'd buy it, because th game was good. If the company subsequently let ShakyMo go and then made a new game with his replacement, I'd buy it if it was good. I wouldn't hold a grudge that my beloved ShakeyMo wasn't involved in the new game.