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I think the thing that hit me the most was his constant assurance that the people bashing him are those he rejected for job offers. I don't know that they aren't, but it seems a little sweeping to assume they are. I mean, I've known this community for several years now...the people on here that like to rage against a game don't exactly NEED a good reason. It feels like he is trying to validate himself by tossing all opposing thought as vengence.
Its not, though. But lets take a moment to assume it IS. I'm a very logical person, structured heavily in reason. In a search for facts and truth, motive isn't an absolute modifier for it. It can bend a fact or truth, but it often does not cloud it completely. Even if they ARE angry at losing a job opportunity, that doesn't mean that there aren't points they are making which have merit. Any discussion, especially considering that this was an interview meant to totally clear the air, that revolves around absolute fact should address the point on its own merit. By saying that everyone is a jealous hater, it avoids the contested point entirely. I realize that in some of his posts on that thread, (which I've read, but not extensively) he did address some of the material brought up.
But that was in a forum post. One riddled with flames and hate. The time to really put all feet forward on each and every last thing would have been the interview, where he wouldn't be shot down at every word. He talked about the Hero engine change, but that was only one of the things being brought up attacking him. Even then he still came off as an angry teen, lashing out at the very site offering him this uncontested medium for spreading information. He could have taken a deep breath, took a step back, and really evaluated what this interview could be for him. Instead, it honestly feels like he is speaking in the forum post again. Its as though he forgot, entirely, that he was speaking to a neutral party...one composed of people who have been inside this market, and this medium, for years professionally.
As another neutral bystander, I can say that its has not shaped my view of this game, or its merits, in a positive light. It nearly confirms what the core of the worry about this game is...in that its being helmed by a person with no sense of adult business or maturity. In the world of movers and shakers...having a great ideal is not enough. Its sad, but its true. You have got to be so much more than a creative person to make a game and sell it on a broad scale. With ever word he is supporting the ideal that he does not have the other characteristics of a successful businessman and entrepenuer.
Originally posted by risenbones I'm sorry you feel that way Mr Appleton. While I agree that people calling your project a scam wasn't really warrented and for the most part those threads stuck scam in them to basicly attract attention I still don't think you will actually deliver. I mean your history is one of jumping from one project to another. You do relise that developing evan a bad MMO takes at least 3 years of full time development and right now what you have is several part time staff, some Unity assets and the Hero engine. Heck you couldn't evan stick to the one engine to develop your game for 3 months. It's this kind of thing that makes me leary of throwing money at you. Now I am sure your not doing it on purpose and right now you have every intention on actually producing a game but in 6 months time when the novelty of it all wears off your history suggests it will all be scrapped and you will move onto something else.
It's called being an entrepeneur, and it sounds to me like he's also had some success as one. Entrepeneurs, by definition, jump from project to project and often have multiple projects going at any given time for a multitude of reasons. I personally have about six projects on the stove, and I will 'walk away' from any of them that go in a direction I don't like. That's business. Ask Google.
Let me point out the obvious problem. They are a brand new, basically month-old startup business. In order to do a Kickstarter, they exposed more about themselves than most companies ever will, including their business plan in the form of the game they want to make. Some of you seem to magically expect a product that is near completion, simply because you threw a few dollars at a Kickstarter.
Probably the worst thing about Kickstarter is that it only serves to boost the sense of entitlement of people who don't have the slightest clue about how businesses work. I see it here all the time where people are demading daily information and expecting insane amounts of progress on games that are *just getting started*.
Kickstarter backers put money into an idea. Like any investment, you may lose that money. Don't invest if this is a problem for you.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
Guy seems to have a long history of looking for a scheme to make money. Started his own music label, tried to represent fighters, announced he was developing an ios game after announcing he bought a book on the subject, spent just over a year working as a loan officer.
While I admire the guy's energy there is nothing to suggest he is actually capable of managing a project the size of an mmorpg; in fact he seems to have issues sticking with any project for long. Curt Schilling had money, professionals and public support and still managed to sail his ship directly into an iceberg, because throwing a ball doesn't translate into developing a long term expensive project. This guy doesn't have money, professionals or a good rep to aid him.
Originally posted by Psychow I would stick to your own forums where you have control of the moderation and can remove the rif-raf. Limit any official contact with MMORPG.com to news and announcements. Forum PvP won't help Greed Monger's cause.
Just be super polite in the public eye, agree.
"and literally every sentence he posted about me or the game was either a very twisted version of something I said or a complete lie...and when his questions were answered, he just continued on as if I said nothing."
"and literally every sentence he posted about me or the game was either a very twisted version of something I said or a complete lie...and when his questions were answered, he just continued on as if I said nothing."
He's accurate about this though: If a troll has done their homework and can mix up half-truths to form creative, negative connotations, you know there is PURPOSE behind such method, and of course answers won't be given any flair whatsoever!
I'm happy to see an indie mmorpg have a go at a genre that needs creativity and more different approaches and select communtities. But mmorpgs are highly risky genre for success and producing fun games that people want to stick with.
And for the record, I am not specifically defending this one indy developer. I'm defending ALL of them, because I love the idea of indy developers working on projects the big companies are too scared to touch.
I love the hilarious double-standard from some of you too. It's ok for you to openly bash this guy, but then if he replies to you he's a "bad business man" who's running a "scam".
Originally posted by MindTrigger Originally posted by Quailman Originally posted by MindTrigger Originally posted by Quailman This guy is such a piece of trash. I will never spend even a dime on any project he is a part of, and I will make sure my friends and acquaintances (especially the ones looking for a sandbox MMO) never spend a dime either. I'm sure he'll be adding this game to his resume of failed ventures soon enough. I do feel bad for the developers and people working under him though, especially that JamesP guy. He actually seemed like a down to earth and decent person. That said, after seeing the development of this game and all the controversy surrounding it, I doubt it will be a good game anyway. I'm sure the market will speak for itself, and Mr. Appleton will be looking for the next way to get rich, deceiving investors along the way.
Here's a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Now if I direct these comments at one of the MMORPG.com users, I will be warned or banned. Why should Quailman get a free pass to bash on a developer with his opinions? If they are going to allow this, then let's just go full PvP on the forums and go all the way.
Hey, I'm just calling it like I see it. The people he refers to in his interview that supposedly had some personal vendetta against him, actually brought facts to the table, while Mr. Appleton just bashed them, called them trolls, liars etc. So we should just let that slide?
By all means, hold me accountable for what I say. I'm just sick of developers and the like getting away with the shit that they get away with.
Was my post a little harsh? Probably, but it's how I feel. After seeing everything this guy has posted on various forums, I feel he is a terrible human being and I'm letting that be known.
What, exactly, did he get away with, and what should the punishment be?
Myrdynn's post on the front page touches on some of the issues. There's plenty of info on the Greed Monger forums on this site highlighting all the shady issues and breaking them down better than I could, not to mention other sites like the Wurm Online forums.
What irritates me mainly, and why I won't be supporting him, is how they lured people in with certain "promises" on the kickstarter ( the amount of land available, engine being used, payment model changes etc.) and then goes back on his word. Then, when he's called out on it, and people present facts surrounding the super short amount of time in which this project came to be, from the idea of the game to the rush to get money for this idea, and evidence being shown that he doesn't actually know much about developing a video game, much less a huge project like an MMO, instead of addressing these issues in a civilized manner, he just bashes everyone bringing this evidence forth, and doesn't really address the issues at all. (sorry for the run on sentence)
Now, he hasn't truly gotten away with anything yet, as people are calling him out on untruths and false statements, and this whole thing is still in motion. As to punishment, not for me to decide. I feel punishment will come on it's own when the free market decides this game isn't worth even the hard drive space it takes up.
Only time will prove me right or wrong.
Consume. Be silent. Die.
Someone forgot how smarmy devs are required to be at all times while wearing OfficialFace™.
But remember this thread, the next time you wonder why you can't get a dev to give you a straight answer.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Originally posted by MindTrigger And for the record, I am not specifically defending this one indy developer. I'm defending ALL of them, because I love the idea of indy developers working on projects the big companies are too scared to touch. I love the hilarious double-standard from some of you too. It's ok for you to openly bash this guy, but then if he replies to you he's a "bad business man" who's running a "scam".
I feel, at this point, we need an indy game company to move this genre forward, and I am a huge fan of indy companies and their efforts. We still need to hold these indy companies responsible for their actions, though, just as we would a big corporation.
As to the bashing, from what I witnessed, most of the bashing came from Jason Appleton in response to well thought out posts and well constructed evidence and links to information. After a while the bashing started flinging from all sides, and now it's gotten to where we are now.
As far as I'm concerned though, he's earning every negative thing coming his way, as he continues to dismiss issues while placing blame on others while calling them liars and people with agendas and personal vendettas against him and his company ( which may be true, but that doesn't mean we should ignore the evidence they bring forth).
That depends on what you mean by being a "bad business man" and what a "scam" is.
Crowdfunding is a "new" concept... and that is how this game has started funding. Mismanagement has already happened, clearly, simply by switching the engines. Game development isn't instant gratification, and honestly someone who switches jobs and projects as often as it has been suggested, doesn't bode well for any actual developers who are looking to see their hard work released.
On the other end you have a very defensive "lead developer" who - lets face it, is on MMORPG.com battling it out, instead of refocusing on the project, which is the most important thing. Say what you will about Derek Smart, but with all of his talk has also come proof that the guy can create a game and get it published.
I'm not saying I'm against this guy, or this project, but simply put, he won't be getting anything from me -- and this is key, because he IS essentially asking that we pay prior to getting a complete game.
Originally posted by grimfall Sorry, but if you think less of this guy because he got in an argument here with one of the forum warriors, you're the biggest fool of all. He makes mistakes. Jesus had his flirations with Mary Magdalane. MLK Jr plagarized , etc etc. People make mistakes. He acknowledges that he shouldn't have engaged in an argument with the forum warriors, but doesn't regret the things that he said. The world would be a lot better place today, if you all, and everyone around you had this same amount of personal integrity.
I agree, personal integrity should always be "key".
I will say that "yes" people make mistakes. But it's how you handle those mistakes, espeically if you are in the public eye, that is important.
Just to clarify a little bit.
I don't assume every person flaming me or the game is someone who attempted to join the team and were rejected. The majority of the initial naysayers were, though more that I'm not familiar with have joined the cause.
For some reason, my experiences in business in the past continue to be referred to as failed simply because I went to other industries. No, I'm not a self made millionaire but I've supported myself with my own companies for over a decade. That to me is success. I've achieved things very few people have and have done so while maintaining a reputation for integrity, which is also something many can't claim. I told myself early on in life that I would never sell my soul to find success. I have done many things in my life, none of which I regret. I've learned a great deal about many diferent things. I have helped a lot of people get to where they are today in multiple industries and while I haven't made a million dollars in any company I've founded, that to me doesnt mean I didn't find success. I found success for me, my family and those I work with and those who have worked for me. I'm not all about the money in business. I'm about doing what I enjoy and so long as I can feed my children doing it, it's successful. I was a promoter since 2006 and in that time I made many sacrifices to support those who fought for me. I may make $40,000 one show and break even or lose money on another because I'd put those previous profits into more television production, higher caliber fighters and TV time buys for the next to build the names of fighters on that card who were on their way up, etc. It was a tricky game, but it's what seperated me from every other promoter who just threw a cage in their back yard and charged high ticket prices to watch people fight that nobody heard of.
Since many of you are going through my Linked In, you'll see some pretty high level execs giving me glowing recomendations from TV network directors to Marketing people etc. I don't even really use Linkedin very much at all and don't solicit reviews there.
Should I have someone else handle the forum communities? Let's just say, when there is more to talk about, I probably will. I'm the first to admit that I'm not cut out for this kind of community engagement.
I'd be willing to bet that any one of you who truly have nothing but disdain for me on any level, if you were to spend so much as an afternoon with me, you would realize quickly just how wrong your assumptions of me are. I'm not saying I'm humble by any means, I'm not even saying I'm Mother Thereasa, but you would learn quickly that I'm very honest, I work hard and I take care of people around me. I am however stressed a lot as well because I do have a lot going on all the time. I could lose 50lbs too.
All I've ever asked of people is to judge the game on it's progress. That's it. Save the assumptions, the personal attacks, the hate, spite, etc for another day. If I ran around smacking people in my office and then judged them based on how they reacted to it, I'm pretty sure I'd be left with nothing but contempt for anyone who cursed me out or slapped me back when I should be expecting it, and I'd be very wrong about all of them. Put anyone in a corner and most will fight back.
I do apologize for allowing things to get so out of hand on these forums. I'm sure there are better ways to have handled the onslaught and because I'm the one in the public eye, I should have taken better measures to handle things differently. On a professional level, I do apologize for that.
My plans at this point are to move on and move forward with the development of the game and hope that in time, some of you more vocal folks will show as much acceptance to the positive as you have shown disdain for the negative and maybe, the positive will out weight the bad and you will find yourself enjoying the game with everyone else.
I appreciate MMORPG.com offering the opportunity for this interview and though it seems many of you are comfortable in your disdain for me personally, I appreciate you at least having the interest to continue taking in new information as it's presented and as I said, hopefully in time my team and our progress will bring towards the light, or the darkness, whichever you think we are shooting for.
www.greedmonger.comDid you like Ultima Online? Then you'll LOVE Greed Monger!
I'm sort of confused here.
In our KickStarter we stated that we were using Unity3D. At that time we were banking on getting our hands on a specific piece of Technology that would have allowed us to have the seamless world we were planning on having. We then found out that piece of technology was still in development, was more for the license then we even managed to get through our KickStarter, or required a Revenue Share to obtain a license for. So another words that piece of technology that we were basing our whole Framework on having fell through. That Combined with Unity's Sneaky tactics of trying to hide the fact that they added some new things into their EULA caused us to loose faith in Unity3D for Greed Monger which meant we had to change engines to continue moving forward.
Now you guys are seeming to indicate you would rather have had us stick with Unity3D and released a watered down Zone (With Loading Screens) based version of what we wanted to release and were promising to release...
I just really fail to see the logic in all of that?
Company OwnerMMO InteractiveGreed Monger
That is the sort of communication you should be involved in, not hurling insults and threatening people. A very good first step. Keep it up and show some results, and you'll win people back.
And JamesP just took things a step back again. Stop making excuses and blaming others for "tricking" you. Your big boys that need people to believe in them. Admit that your learning along the way and take responsibility.
James had been pushing me since day one to use Hero Engine for a multitude of reasons but at the time, it was my ignorance of Unity and everything I had read and was explained to by others that lead me to believe that using Unity was going to be the best option. Luckily, James knows Hero inside and out and when we switched, he was happy and hit the ground running.
I think he's just trying to make a statement that overall, there is a lot that goes into a decision like this and that it doesn't always mean it's a flagrant misuse of funds or us trying to pull a fast one on the public as some would like to infur.
Nonetheless, have a good afternoon.
James, get back to work before I beat you onto the homepage of the National Enquirerer and prove all these people right! lol
Originally posted by Mogus August, James had been pushing me since day one to use Hero Engine for a multitude of reasons but at the time, it was my ignorance of Unity and everything I had read and was explained to by others that lead me to believe that using Unity was going to be the best option. Luckily, James knows Hero inside and out and when we switched, he was happy and hit the ground running. I think he's just trying to make a statement that overall, there is a lot that goes into a decision like this and that it doesn't always mean it's a flagrant misuse of funds or us trying to pull a fast one on the public as some would like to infur. Nonetheless, have a good afternoon. James, get back to work before I beat you onto the homepage of the National Enquirerer and prove all these people right! lol
Yes sir... lol But yes I know right now there's alot of uncertainty with you guys and with those who have backed us. Since making the switch to Hero we haven't released any Screenshots or videos or proof of what we have been doing. In the end though I really think once we do start releasing more in the way of Screenshots and Videos you guys will be just as excited about the progress we are making as we are. We have a long ways to go but we ARE truely making great progress and HeroEngine is just the engine that will be able to take us to our goals in the shortest time possible!
We're long overdue for a good scam or two.
The famous scams in this genre, Age of Mourning, Horizons and Dark & Light, are now a distant memory for many of us. Some of us weren't even around to witness them unfold. I can't tell you how easily people got swept up in those scams. But we learned a lot from those days. We learned to ask questions and put "2+2" together. We learned that, in this business, nobody is going to look out for an MMO player, except the MMO player.
Now a lot of time has passed since those scams. But I'd have to say that, today, it's far easier to perpatrate a scam. Most of the distributional and informational safeguards that protected players have been swept away. In its place we have new and innovative ways to plan, perpetrate, and conceal scams: kickstarter, digital distribution, social network teams, payolla.
All of these innovations reduce the safeguards consumers have always depended upon to protect them from scams. Today, we have no retailer that prevents shoddy products from going on the shelf. We have no press we can trust. We have no reliable way to determine if social media hype is real, or fabricated.
The fact that people are questioning Greed Monger may or may not be regrettable. One thing we can't deny is that it is understandable. This is an industry that is about one small step above gambling and drugs, in terms of its legitimacy. We have some rather unscrupulous players in this industry who do some rather unscrupulous acts that we are made to swallow: wholesale redesigns out from under someone, service cancellations, questionable monetization schemes, and so on. Couple this with a consumer profile that is addicted to these things, and you have a perfect recepie for exploitation.
Indeed, I'm starting to come around to the view that every MMO--from the most stable AAA offering to the smallest indie--rests upon exploitation of its players. Looking at it like that, the difference between a "scam" MMO and a "legit" MMO is just a matter of degree, not kind.
__________________________"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Awesome post Beatnik59.
And it doesn't matter if you're an indie dev or a AAA dev studio - if you want players to play your game - you have to play the politics game and do everything in PR speak.
It's called "being a legitimate business person/company."
How do you expect people to think you'll release a quality product worth their hard earned money if you can't at least fake a presentable face to the consumer?
It's called respectability - something you have to earn.
Being an "indie" doesn't give you the right to be a douche.
Indie are just the hipsters of game development. Most of the time it's garbage anyway.
The "lightning strike" Indie game is just as rare if not MORE rare than in the AAA business.
I remeber Dark & Light and what a train wreck that was.
I waited for what seemed like years for that game to come out and when it did, NOTHING worked and was very dry and just overall, bad.
I tried so hard to give that game a chance to catch up to its own hype and promises but it just never happened.
I admit, I was very let down at the time.
I have no intentions on a similar outcome with Greed Monger, just FYI, but yes, after experiencing things like that for myself, I can understand the initial cynisism. It looks to be an impossible task. Everyone has to understand though, the tools available now that weren't available back then make building a world and game soo much easier and add to that the savings in time and costs in pre-made assets. Yes, I have gathered most people here see that as some kind of bad thing, but for the assets I've spent MAYBE $5,000 on (not counting the custom housing models we have developed which are going to be double that cost but it's a huge part of the game and well worth it), would have cost me upwards of $100,000 or more to have them all custom made and take a year to make not to mention rigging and animation etc. This isn't to say we wont have custom items and such made, we already have a lot of nice custom things such as the housing models which are all custom and exclusive to GM and things like that. I've even been learning zbrush myself so I can dive in with random items that are needed in the game world.
So yeah, I know I shouldn't be posting but I can't help myself. I want to be an active part in the community as best I can.
I am JUST as passionate about the MMO genre as many of you. It's been a big part of my life for over 20 years. The only difference is, now I'm making one.
Excellent discussion ! Big props to Beatnik59 and Bad Spock for those points. Not saying anyone is right or wrong, or anything is absolute, justy a flat out good discussion can still be had on the 'net.
While i personally have no stake in this... it might be in it's place to remind people that most of the big names in gaming today did not have much more knowledge or experince then Jason when they started. They made small games by trial and error of outright copying code from others.
In many way now is a better time to start like this because the amount of information at our fingertips is near infinite.
And so what if this project goes belly up, what does it matter to you as a potential player... If you invested in it youknew the risk and if you did not you will have lost nothing. The only one who stands to loose something here are the devs of GM. And at least, for better or worse Jason is at least doing something. Heck if i had the founds to do things like this i would do it too.
My only hope is that the team behind GM have learnt from this and will put forward a more pr-minded flow of information and take less fights with fans and "haters". Because while they are fun to watch in the end there is no winner.
This have been a good conversation
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
I think the MMO market's gonna have to stop treating indy devs like they're big studio CS people they can talk down to...
It's high time those forum whiners get put back in their place by someone who doesn't give a fuck about unreasonable kids who think they're owed everything and for free.
Originally posted by BadSpock It's called "being a legitimate business person/company." How do you expect people to think you'll release a quality product worth their hard earned money if you can't at least fake a presentable face to the consumer? Being an "indie" doesn't give you the right to be a douche.
And if people are being douches towards you and attacking you personally, not as a business person or company, you're not allowed to react as a human and not as a company?
My take on this earlier was, and still is, ill-informed good intent. I fully expect that the goal of these guys is to make a cool MMO. They are damned in their own words, though. Just the links provided previously, and other comments on this and other sites provides all the evidence I need to conclude that this is a very shaky project.
There's an obvious litany of poor decisions: Initial name choice, poor understanding of the game engines, no interest in previous developers' experiance, chomping at the bit to do the big game - without even considering a smaller project or other experiance, other flip-flopping, etc. The big dude comes across as a guy who believes every word he utters, but looks to be a dilettante and acts sorta flakey. It's the bed he's made, but he really doesn't want to lie in it now.
Most guys in the fighting game have to actually practice a bunch before they get in the ring. And there's a reason for that.....
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.