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Why do "some" people enjoy an MMO being shut down or doing badly?

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  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member

    Pessimism, thanks to teenage angst, has/will always be the thing that all the cool gamer kids on the internet do.

    Optimism is less popular, but also less hopeless.

     

    If bitterness wants to get into the act, I offer it a cookie or a gumdrop.
    —James Broughton

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • neobahamut20neobahamut20 ste-julie, QCPosts: 336Member
    Originally posted by jpnz
    Originally posted by Paradigm68

    There are valid reasons.

    If you're a big fan of the MMO genre and you think that genre is being ruined by certain dynamics (I.E. instancing, de-emphasizing communitiy) then big money games that use those dynamics need to fail or they'll become an adopted norm.

    If you're a big fan of a given IP and an MMO has come out based on that IP but the MMO in your opinion has handled it terribly (I.E. LoTRO, SWTOR, ESO), then your only hope to play an MMO based on your favorite IP is to hope the current version fails and a new better one is made.

    This shows a fundamentally flawed logic that is pretty common amongst people that doesn't know how the real world works.

    The logic of 'Failure = breeds innovation / better version' is flawed and history has proven time and again that it is false.

    Why people still think this way I have no idea.

    It is true, in a way, let me help you understand: 

    That logic doesn't apply to the same people. If someone copies something and it is shit, the observers will accept the risk of going forward with their innovative ideas, because, at worse, it fails like copying does. Now if observers watch and see 150 million dollar budgets be successful, they start thinking, thinking that maybe they are wrong and it is doubt that truly kills their innovation, so they go with what they think people seem to want, a WoW clone. That is the source of the problem.

     

    You might be lucky to find the 1 or 2 people that never played WoW in your clone, but chances are, everyone did and those people are no longer playing WoW because they want something else. It is the flawed logic of "suits" that is the problem, they keep telling themselves people quit WoW because they aren't "l33t54uc3" so they remake WoW.... with dumbed down content, which makes their product that much more boring, that much worse.

     

    So although failure does not necessarily breed innovation, it halts stagnation and innovation is only truly stopped when we stagnate. When games like SW:ToR fail, it only shows that perhaps your wacky idea as a game designer might just be what people want as what people don't want is what is already out there.

    Boycotting EA. Why? They suck, even moreso since 2008.

  • DauzqulDauzqul Detroit, MIPosts: 1,402Member Uncommon

    WoW = NGE, AoC, WAR, Aion, Tera, STO, SWTOR, etc....

    When non-innovative games fail, people are happy because they think that it will be the final wake-up call for future developers. The problem is that it's rarely the case.

    SWTOR is probably the biggest flop of all time. Finally! The Theme Park trend is over! Woohoo! <60 days later> The Elder Scrolls Online is announced...

     

    People don't like to see good games fail. People like to see bad games fail.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by mmoDAD
    The problem is that it's rarely the case.

    Possibly because the gamer-ized definition of "fail" is so very, very different from the business definition?

    Proper Forum Drama requires it to be, after all.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • Raithe-NorRaithe-Nor Moscow, IDPosts: 315Member
    Originally posted by Ezhae

    Very few games actually hurt the industry by their incompetence, and those that do are quickly picked up and called on it by both the community and alls orts of gaming journalists/reviewers. 

    Wrong on both accounts.

    Darkfall received an utterly disgusting review as one of it's initial scores (I think 2 or 3 out of 10 from Eurogamer).  It's most recent score on mmorpg.com places it among the top tier of MMOs with Wow only being 0.34 higher (7.55 vs 7.21).

    Darkfall was a better game at its release, mostly because it is currently dead (full-blown server shutdown).  I read the review from Eurogamer, it was completely off-base and the poor review was entirely because the reviewer simply had no clue what type of game he was really playing.  Yes, the reviewer regularly reviewed MMOs - yet still he was completely unware of what an old-style MMO was supposed to be like.

    That is the problem with incompetency and unchecked money-grabbing in an industry.  The industry can lose its identity.

    WoW was a fluke based on temporal circumstances and having four-five highly successful RTS/hacknslash predecessors.  It can no longer be copied.  Developers would do well to figure out what many mmorpg forum participants seem to know.

    And yes, they need to figure it out for themselves.  Me or the other hundred people telling them is just to provide the motivation.

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member
    Originally posted by mmoDAD

    WoW = NGE, AoC, WAR, Aion, Tera, STO, SWTOR, etc....

    When non-innovative games fail, people are happy because they think that it will be the final wake-up call for future developers. The problem is that it's rarely the case.

    SWTOR is probably the biggest flop of all time. Finally! The Theme Park trend is over! Woohoo! <60 days later> The Elder Scrolls Online is announced...

     

    People don't like to see good games fail. People like to see bad games fail.

    Not the case - little whiney gamers THINK they know what is good for the industry not what the industry wants or needs.

     

    As was stated by others and myself in this thread - people who want to see games and game companies fail are very egotistical, whiney nerds who don't really understand games and the market. They think they unsderstand it all and they dont.

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • curacura WarsawPosts: 950Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by laokoko
    because they hope developer stop making "those type of game" and start making the type of game they like.  If you follow the forum closely I think many sandboxer felt that way. 

    In my case pretty much this. I as well wish ill on companies that lied to much like SOE and BW.

  • Slappy1Slappy1 columbus, OHPosts: 458Member
    Originally posted by jtcgs
    Originally posted by TheScavenger

    It doesn't make sense. And it is a growing problem... 

    So again...why do "some" people find enjoyment in a MMO being closed or doing badly?

     The REAL question is WHO is really the ones enjoying it?

    Funny thing is that I see repeated continually is this.

    Game is released, everyone is enjoying the game. Time goes by, players find issues. Players that found issues talk about the issues, rampant foaming at the mouth players who havent defend defend defend and do everything they can to shut the others down. Players trying to speak becomes frustraited, posts more to try to get a response from the company, the defenders turn into full fledge super fanboy, continue to defend while then trolling to get the others banned or have the threads shutdown.

    Players start to leave the game. More players then start having issues with the game, repeat above.

    Now players are having issues with finding people to play with because so many leave, now they are the bad guys, fanboys turn on them.

    Suddenly the game is doing really bad, the company has no idea why so many left and has done nothing to fix the problems...time to go F2P to try to save the game.

    The company can have HORRIBLE revenue reports, fire massive amounts of people SEVERAL TIMES, merge servers, go F2P, still have bad revenue...and the fanboys will still say nothing is wrong with the game and do what they were doing right from the start...shutting people down.

    So now, the original players that wanted to talk shortly after release are now saying, SEE, if we had been listened to from the start the game wouldnt have gotten to this point, are so SICK of the fanboys...yeah, they may smile when that game dies...not that the GAME died, that the fanboys dont have it anymore because THEY HELPED MAKE IT STAY THAT WAY!

    But, the question is, these same fanboys tell us that we shouldnt say anything, either like the game or leave, and they do it for EVERY MMO they play...so, who really is enjoying the deaths of MMOs? It sounds more like its those telling us not to speak, and allow bad games to remain so and never improve...

    +1000 ^^ pretty much sums it up,nice post.

    Some day I'm going to put a sword through your eye and out the back of your skull!

    Arya Stark

  • neobahamut20neobahamut20 ste-julie, QCPosts: 336Member
    Originally posted by Raithe-Nor
    Originally posted by Ezhae

    Very few games actually hurt the industry by their incompetence, and those that do are quickly picked up and called on it by both the community and alls orts of gaming journalists/reviewers. 

    Wrong on both accounts.

    Darkfall received an utterly disgusting review as one of it's initial scores (I think 2 or 3 out of 10 from Eurogamer).  It's most recent score on mmorpg.com places it among the top tier of MMOs with Wow only being 0.34 higher (7.55 vs 7.21).

    Darkfall was a better game at its release, mostly because it is currently dead (full-blown server shutdown).  I read the review from Eurogamer, it was completely off-base and the poor review was entirely because the reviewer simply had no clue what type of game he was really playing.  Yes, the reviewer regularly reviewed MMOs - yet still he was completely unware of what an old-style MMO was supposed to be like.

    That is the problem with incompetency and unchecked money-grabbing in an industry.  The industry can lose it's identity.

    WoW was a fluke based on temporal circumstances and having four-five highly successful RTS/hacknslash predecessors.  It can no longer be copied.  Developers would do well to figure out what many mmorpg forum participants seem to know.

    And yes, they need to figure it out for themselves.  Me or the other hundred people telling them is just to provide the motivation.

    WoW was and is still far from a fluke. Hate it as you wish, but it did too much right to be fluke. Now, you arent a reviewer, so you can just hate something and dismiss it for what it is not.  As for Darkfall, the reviewer was probably expecting his payment for publicity from the makers of the game that he never got, so the game got reviewed accordingly. Its how the game review business works, its why many EA games get scored 8/10 and over. If you care so much about numbers, you are the problem.

    Boycotting EA. Why? They suck, even moreso since 2008.

  • AmatheAmathe Miami, FLPosts: 1,658Member Uncommon

    I don't usually celebrate the failure of any mmo, as I am a fan of the genre and want it to stay strong.

     

    Exceptions to that rule are:

     

    1. When a game is punitive of or disrespectful to some group of players;

     

    2.  If I feel the developers misled prospective players in the marketing of the game; or

     

    3. If I feel the developers have been greedy on the revenue side at the expense of making a quality product. 

     

    Those are behaviors where I like to see the market react and hit back.  

     

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • DauzqulDauzqul Detroit, MIPosts: 1,402Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by mmoDAD

    WoW = NGE, AoC, WAR, Aion, Tera, STO, SWTOR, etc....

    When non-innovative games fail, people are happy because they think that it will be the final wake-up call for future developers. The problem is that it's rarely the case.

    SWTOR is probably the biggest flop of all time. Finally! The Theme Park trend is over! Woohoo! <60 days later> The Elder Scrolls Online is announced...

     

    People don't like to see good games fail. People like to see bad games fail.

    Not the case - little whiney gamers THINK they know what is good for the industry not what the industry wants or needs.

     

    As was stated by others and myself in this thread - people who want to see games and game companies fail are very egotistical, whiney nerds who don't really understand games and the market. They think they unsderstand it all and they dont.

    Well it's clear that the developers don't understand it. If they did, we wouldn't have these mass amount of flops.

    Players are winey because they are sick of the same old stuff. They know the industry much more than you think. I mean...who would know more than the consumer?

  • TorgrimTorgrim GothenburgPosts: 2,088Member
    Originally posted by Ezhae
    Originally posted by Torgrim
    You should not reward anyone for doing a poor job.

    And who are You to decide what's poor job and what's not? I mean, if people enjoy it, why does it hurt you that a game exists?

     

    Who am I?

    I'm a consumer with a voice and opinions.

    Should I not be allowed to voice my opinions?

    If it's not broken, you are not innovating.

  • Raithe-NorRaithe-Nor Moscow, IDPosts: 315Member


    Originally posted by neobahamut20
    WoW was and is still far from a fluke. Hate it as you wish, but it did too much right to be fluke.

    I'm not sure if you understand what a fluke is. A fluke is a "stroke of good luck," and just because WoW did a lot of things right does not prevent it from being, precisely, a "stroke of good luck." Since current subscriber numbers of WoW are significantly lower than 3 or 4 years ago, I would say that attempting to duplicate an MMO that isn't successfully duplicating itself would be a bad idea.

    Which was my point.


    Originally posted by neobahamut20
    If you care so much about numbers, you are the problem.

    The whole point of the numbers was to prove how wrong, misleading, and useless they can be. If you aren't going to attempt to understand a post at even a minor and fundamental level, you would do better to post without quoting.

  • neobahamut20neobahamut20 ste-julie, QCPosts: 336Member
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by mmoDAD

    WoW = NGE, AoC, WAR, Aion, Tera, STO, SWTOR, etc....

    When non-innovative games fail, people are happy because they think that it will be the final wake-up call for future developers. The problem is that it's rarely the case.

    SWTOR is probably the biggest flop of all time. Finally! The Theme Park trend is over! Woohoo! <60 days later> The Elder Scrolls Online is announced...

     

    People don't like to see good games fail. People like to see bad games fail.

    Not the case - little whiney gamers THINK they know what is good for the industry not what the industry wants or needs.

     

    As was stated by others and myself in this thread - people who want to see games and game companies fail are very egotistical, whiney nerds who don't really understand games and the market. They think they unsderstand it all and they dont.

     

    Well belittling others is a common trait of the stooge, part of the 20% of people thinking they are part of the 1% of the wealthiest in society. For information purposes, although you are a lost cause, those "little whiney gamers" ARE the industry. People dressing up in suits trying to decide what to invest in are those who know nothing and their only "want" is money.

     

    People who want to see a game succeed are also egotistical, as everyone is. Logical fallacies everywhere, red herrings, well, the average stooge, not even worthy of being deemed a troll.

    Boycotting EA. Why? They suck, even moreso since 2008.

  • TorgrimTorgrim GothenburgPosts: 2,088Member
    Originally posted by mmoDAD

     

    SWTOR is probably the biggest flop of all time. Finally! The Theme Park trend is over! Woohoo! <60 days later> The Elder Scrolls Online is announced...

     

     

    ESO sure is a themepark MMO but It tries to branch out from the copy mold with some new idea and some new features.

    Besides no one in their right mind can put ESO and SWTOR in the same basket.

    If it's not broken, you are not innovating.

  • neobahamut20neobahamut20 ste-julie, QCPosts: 336Member
    Originally posted by Raithe-Nor

     


    Originally posted by neobahamut20
    WoW was and is still far from a fluke. Hate it as you wish, but it did too much right to be fluke.


     

    I'm not sure if you understand what a fluke is. A fluke is a "stroke of good luck," and just because WoW did a lot of things right does not prevent it from being, precisely, a "stroke of good luck." Since current subscriber numbers of WoW are significantly lower than 3 or 4 years ago, I would say that attempting to duplicate an MMO that isn't successfully duplicating itself would be a bad idea.

    Which was my point.

     


    Originally posted by neobahamut20
    If you care so much about numbers, you are the problem.


     

    The whole point of the numbers was to prove how wrong, misleading, and useless they can be. If you aren't going to attempt to understand a post at even a minor and fundamental level, you would do better to post without quoting.

    Like all things, WoW is dated, its old. Of course subs are going down. Note that the downward slide also, perhaps coincidently, started at the same time their forum started to be run in nazi fashion by the moderators in order to shut up complaints about the direction the company was going. It is not luck to create something that gets a lot of people just because others aren't capable of doing the same. It is far from a fluke. It was simply a solid product that improved on many existing mechanisms that many people enjoyed.

    Again, if you care about numbers enough to rely on them being a part of your argument, you are part of the problem, you are their target audience since it obviously got to you.

    Boycotting EA. Why? They suck, even moreso since 2008.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Torgrim

    Who am I?

    I'm a consumer with a voice and opinions.

    Should I not be allowed to voice my opinions?

    Sure, that's what we're here for.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • Raithe-NorRaithe-Nor Moscow, IDPosts: 315Member

     


    Originally posted by neobahamut20
    Like all things, WoW is dated, its old. Of course subs are going down.

     

    A useless belief considering that WoW is currently the leader in MMOs in basically every category there is. Even more useless as an argument against WoW being a fluke, as claims of lucky circumstances and claims of degradation due to time are extremely similar. You can claim it got old, I can claim its luck ran out. They are basically the same.

     


    Originally posted by neobahamut20
    Again, if you care about numbers enough to rely on them being a part of your argument, you are part of the problem, you are their target audience since it obviously got to you.
     

     

    Please stop replying to me. My post was a response to someone claiming that the numbers are useful and help filter the industry. I did nothing in my posts that you didn't do yourself.

    [mod edit]

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member

    Many reasons.

     

    Sometimes its because there are scummy developers behind the game that lie and falsely advertise (Mortal Online, Age of Conan).

    Other times its because devs have screwed over their player base (SWG: NGE)

    and other times, it's because an MMO is a cheap clone that doesn't deserve to be successful, and its failure will discourage other companies from making cheap clones.

     

    Need more reasons? The whole industry is connected together. I cheered when SWTOR went down because it meant that releasing singleplayer games and calling them MMOs would not work.

  • HomituHomitu Hometown, HIPosts: 2,030Member

    When fans publicly praise or endorse a game, they draw a connection between the game and themselves.  The game's successes or failures then appear to reflect upon the fan's judgment.  

    Conversely, when a game that a player does not endorse, or a game that the player publicly criticizes, fails, it appears to that player that their criticism was validated.  The elementary glee of being able to say, "I told you so!"  It puts the critic in "the right" and everyone else in "the wrong."  

    As childish as it is, surely you can comprehend the simple satisfaction some people find in such moments?  

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member
    Originally posted by Torgrim

    Who am I?

    I'm a consumer with a voice and opinions.

    Should I not be allowed to voice my opinions?

    If you hate a game so much that you want it to close, why do you still consider yourself a consumer of that game?

  • ArclanArclan Chicago, ILPosts: 1,494Member Uncommon

    Wrong, O.P. It isn't about laughing when someone falls down. It's about calling them out about being an idiot when you warned them repeatedly to avoid the bump in the road.

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

  • dimnikardimnikar ZanistanvillePosts: 271Member
    Originally posted by Homitu

    When fans publicly praise or endorse a game, they draw a connection between the game and themselves.  The game's successes or failures then appear to reflect upon the fan's judgment.  

    Conversely, when a game that a player does not endorse, or a game that the player publicly criticizes, fails, it appears to that player that their criticism was validated.  The elementary glee of being able to say, "I told you so!"  It puts the critic in "the right" and everyone else in "the wrong."  

    As childish as it is, surely you can comprehend the simple satisfaction some people find in such moments?  

    I believe you got it right there, can't be explained better than that, IMO.

    When someones beliefs are attacked they'll defend them at all cost, reason not withstanding.

     

  • TorgrimTorgrim GothenburgPosts: 2,088Member
    Originally posted by maplestone
    Originally posted by Torgrim

    Who am I?

    I'm a consumer with a voice and opinions.

    Should I not be allowed to voice my opinions?

    If you hate a game so much that you want it to close, why do you still consider yourself a consumer of that game?

     

    I am a MMO consumer In general who are interested in MMOs that should advance the genre not stagnate it.

    And yes before you do a post history on me to fuel your argument I spare you the time

    Yes I think GW2 broke the clone mold and tries to do something new in the genre, is it the best game ever?, no, but the direction GW2 is better than WoW clone road so many have taken during the years with SWTOR as the cherry on top.

    If it's not broken, you are not innovating.

  • VorthanionVorthanion Laguna Vista, TXPosts: 2,117Member Uncommon
    Sadly, failures are more likely to bring about change in the genre than successes will.  The problem as I see it is that some people want the entire genre to change.  In their world view, there is no room for other play styles or types of games, every new game should conform to their criteria.  It's one of the things that is driving me batty right now with every tom, dick and harry developer jumping on the action combat bandwagon, despite the obvious appeal of tactical, slower based combat being quite popular with a lot of gamers.  They see games fail that had the traditional combat and they immediately turn around and see the vocal minority decrying the lack of action combat as the culprit, when it most likely had nothing at all to do with its failure.

    image
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