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B2P: The Trojan Horse of MMOs?

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  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,261Member Uncommon

    Let's forget about developer X and TH2 for a sec. Tell me this if you were developer M or R, and you were watching this, what would you do? 

     

    You would make your next title just like TH2 with about 2 months of umph, maybe three, but no more. Why the heck would you want players playing your game for 2-5 years just for the box price?! 

  • ScalplessScalpless SnowballvillePosts: 1,395Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by bcbully

    You would make your next title just like TH2 with about 2 months of umph, maybe three, but no more. Why the heck would you want players playing your game for 2-5 years just for the box price?! 

    Expansions

    Cash shop

    Attracting other players

    People played GW1 at least until GW2 came out. It had years of oomph.

     

  • FallguyArmyFallguyArmy Davenport, FLPosts: 80Member

    Like with any business model out there, B2P is only as good as the way the publishers decide to implement it. In theory, B2P is probably the "best of both worlds" for which the consumers and the companies win. To further elaborate, consumers buy the game and pay for it only once (just like they would with any other game for the Xbox of Playstation, for example), while the companies make money for those who purchased their game. Simple as that. It's obviously better than P2P where it seems like it's really just the companies who "win" here, while it's also better than F2P because as we all know there's no such thing as truly free-to-play so eventually a consumer is going to be made to pay at some point (with the exception of perhaps TERA's F2P business model, which looks to be really breaking the norm and for the better).

     

    With all this said, I would still prefer if publishers pushed more for a B2P business model. I can see so many benefits to it (which I haven't listed), but maybe I'm just seeing everything more from an idealistic point of view. Even if I were to be realistic, I still don't see why no one's going for the B2P route.

     

    But in the end, it also depends on the games themselves. It doesn't matter if it's F2P, if the game sucks no one's going to play it. If it's B2P, people will still expect to get their money's worth and some loyalty from the companies. Even more so if the game is P2P.

  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INPosts: 3,734Member Uncommon
    I think too many gamers think B2P is the same as F2P because there is no sub fee......B2P basically forces you to pay your sub fees up front and gambles you wont play much longer than 3-4 months (which the statistics show that most gamers dont)..... Also alot of games that have B2P also offer cash shops or some other form of bringing in income.....Personally I dont like b2p....I like to move around and try new games and like many I often dont play most MMOs for more than a month or two so b2p for me is a bad model.
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,768Member Uncommon

    ArenaNet doesn't necessarily need people to stick around forever.  But they do want people to think the game was fun and tell others the game was fun and come back to buy the next expansion and play that.

    But which is better:

    1)  a game that lets you play through content and have fun until you run out of content, or

    2)  a game that makes you spend most of your time grinding something stupid in order to occasionally get access to some new content, in order to make it take much longer for you to run out of content?

    Personally, I'd spend a lot more time on game (1), as I'd quit game (2) as soon as I figured out that that was what they were doing.  Which would probably be before I ever played the game.

  • FallguyArmyFallguyArmy Davenport, FLPosts: 80Member
    Originally posted by Quizzical

    ArenaNet doesn't necessarily need people to stick around forever.  But they do want people to think the game was fun and tell others the game was fun and come back to buy the next expansion and play that.

    But which is better:

    1)  a game that lets you play through content and have fun until you run out of content, or

    2)  a game that makes you spend most of your time grinding something stupid in order to occasionally get access to some new content, in order to make it take much longer for you to run out of content?

    Personally, I'd spend a lot more time on game (1), as I'd quit game (2) as soon as I figured out that that was what they were doing.  Which would probably be before I ever played the game.

    Of course the answer to this question is (1). The real question is, are the developers and publishers "getting it"? (If you catch my drift...)

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,187Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Theocritus
    I think too many gamers think B2P is the same as F2P because there is no sub fee......B2P basically forces you to pay your sub fees up front and gambles you wont play much longer than 3-4 months (which the statistics show that most gamers dont)..... Also alot of games that have B2P also offer cash shops or some other form of bringing in income.....Personally I dont like b2p....I like to move around and try new games and like many I often dont play most MMOs for more than a month or two so b2p for me is a bad model.

    The most expensive B2P game I've purchased is GW2 at $70 and then TSW at $30.  Subscriptions cost $120 to $180 per year ($10 - $15 / month) with the exception of long term annual commitments that can cost less per month.  Nearly every P2P game also has a box fee of $50 - $70 and a tertiary revenue generator like a cash shop, some sort of micro-transactions for digital items or rmt for in game cash.  It's just more expensive all the way around.

    B2P allows me unrestricted access to that content until the servers shut down.  P2P rents me temporary access to the servers until that time period runs out.

    The advantage of B2P is that the developer recoups a predictable up front cost and generates revenue for every account.  It has a small barrier to entry that discourages troll accounts.  Compared to P2P I'm more than happy with B2P and don't mind the box fee.  I also play a lot of F2P games and often buy a starter pack or something else in the store early, if I like the game, to support it.

    I think of my games as sub-free not B2P or F2P really.  Some have an up front loaded cost and others a back loaded cost.  Neither of which I mind and both models are working rather nicely for me because I also play several different games.

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,187Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Scalpless
    Originally posted by bcbully

    You would make your next title just like TH2 with about 2 months of umph, maybe three, but no more. Why the heck would you want players playing your game for 2-5 years just for the box price?! 

    Expansions

    Cash shop

    Attracting other players

    People played GW1 at least until GW2 came out. It had years of oomph.

    To add to your thought:

    Not only that but we've seen one developer, Funcom, have enough foresight to adjust their business model to save their game.  That was one instance where the game was really good and hte revenue model was hampering its success.  Bad games aren't going to be made successful by a revenue shift especially if they botch their sub-free model (TOR is a good example).

    With B2P and good F2P models the developers don't need everyone to play with the same singluar devotion that sub-restricted games do.

  • FangrimFangrim PrestonPosts: 589Member
    Originally posted by Istavaan
    Originally posted by Fangrim

    I get what your saying but you know there are 2-3 million r-tards that buy every single piece of x$^&*,$%Y*,^*(  that comes along  and plays it until the next piece of %Y&&*()*_*_&_%^% comes along and so on and so forth,they will keep splurging it out as long as these r-tards keep pre ordering and even buing life time subs of the games haha.What can you do?

     

    Edit : The right hand side of my keyboard is totally devoid of letters,I just have black keys.Ontop of that my M key decides it wants to also contribute to anything I type without me pressing it... guess you shouldn't eat while typing? So I edited and got some spelling mistakes also bearing in mind I am on my 10th pear cider....

    People who buy games that you don't like are r-tards? what are you 12?

    I guess you bought a lifetime sub and then moved to another game then another and another .Then you go on to post that italian food is better than french.How dare you decide what people like? What are you 5?

    Gnome Wankers two.After the events of 18/07/2015 i fucking hate anyone that has anything to do with skyforge
    image

  • Grotar89Grotar89 beograd, CAPosts: 343Member

    GW2 is doing fine its getting more updates than TOR and TSW combined, devs are talking with players all the time, crazy new content coming in february and march, more stuff to do in outleveled zones.

    Anet didnt lay off any dev unlike TOR where BW laid off like half the stuff. TSW failed so hard that Funcom will probably die or never be same again had to shut down most of its studios....

    So yea, you can gloom and doom GW2 all u want but its here to stay for long time and its getting better and better whit each day !

  • Grotar89Grotar89 beograd, CAPosts: 343Member
    Originally posted by Theocritus
    I think too many gamers think B2P is the same as F2P because there is no sub fee......B2P basically forces you to pay your sub fees up front and gambles you wont play much longer than 3-4 months (which the statistics show that most gamers dont)..... Also alot of games that have B2P also offer cash shops or some other form of bringing in income.....Personally I dont like b2p....I like to move around and try new games and like many I often dont play most MMOs for more than a month or two so b2p for me is a bad model.

    How much would you spend on sub fee + box in Sub base MMO ? Around 230 euros/dolars for 1 year ?

    How much would you spend in GW2 for the same time ? 50 dolars/euros !!!! + you dont have to buy anything from cash shop,

    B2P is a bad model for you ? So you like to buy box and pay sub for around 2months and if you want to come back you have to pay sub once again... That is better model for you?

  • rafalex007rafalex007 dubaiPosts: 244Member
    image totaly
  • TwoThreeFourTwoThreeFour Virginia, VAPosts: 2,131Member
    Originally posted by laokoko
    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

    So given your analogy,a regular McDonalds meal is clearly more value than a recommended meal at a 4-star restaurant given that when you pay equally, you get much more food at McDonalds. 

    I don't know where you are getting at.

    The fact remain GW2 is actually better than almost all mmorpg on the market right now.  Not because it is cheaper.  Because it is better. 

    I don't care if you talk trash about GW2.  But you seemed to forget very few mmorg right now even have more active player than GW2. 

     

     

    The post I quoted didn't just compare GW2 to other B2P MMOs, he compared it to all other B2P games and that's why I presented my counter-argument.

  • ZairuZairu Portland, ORPosts: 469Member
    Originally posted by Vannor

     

    ALL BTP games should be compared to OTHER BTP games.

    agree 100%

     

    it's the simple things that people have trouble with. they think that just because it has some MMO features that it must have them ALL, when in reality, if the game is to your taste, there is an incredible amount of time to kill for the money you put down. 

     

    I played for 3 solid months after launch and always saw many people across the world. I am sure (very sure) that i will find many people to play with when i go back, most likely when they release an expansion.

    i thought everyone knew that this was how to best enjoy GW2. why didn't anyone tell 'gamer joe'?

  • ZairuZairu Portland, ORPosts: 469Member
    Originally posted by Grotar89
    Originally posted by Theocritus
    I think too many gamers think B2P is the same as F2P because there is no sub fee......B2P basically forces you to pay your sub fees up front and gambles you wont play much longer than 3-4 months (which the statistics show that most gamers dont)..... Also alot of games that have B2P also offer cash shops or some other form of bringing in income.....Personally I dont like b2p....I like to move around and try new games and like many I often dont play most MMOs for more than a month or two so b2p for me is a bad model.

    How much would you spend on sub fee + box in Sub base MMO ? Around 230 euros/dolars for 1 year ?

    How much would you spend in GW2 for the same time ? 50 dolars/euros !!!! + you dont have to buy anything from cash shop,

    B2P is a bad model for you ? So you like to buy box and pay sub for around 2months and if you want to come back you have to pay sub once again... That is better model for you?

     

     

     

    if i am understanding his post, he does not like to pay for ANYTHING. he expects everything free, as if he is entitled to it.

    go figure...

  • jtcgsjtcgs New Port Richey, ILPosts: 1,777Member
    Originally posted by Camaro68

    This is the story of Developer X and Gamer Joe:

     This is the story of hater x and player joe:

    Hater x tells us his story about how there is no one to play with, Gamer joe says he is wrong because he isnt having trouble finding people to play with at all. Hater x goes on to start calling Gamer joe a fanboy and that he wont face reality. Gamer joe, he starts thinking Hater x is nothing more than a troll because of the way he is thinking.

    Moral of the story? both only see what they want to see, they are not looking at the entire picture.

    FACT: On my server, when I log onto any of my characters to go do something, my main level 80, alt lvl 80, lvl 52 necro or level 12 guardian...I have no issues finding people. Doesnt matter if its end game Orr zerg, WvW or dungeon runs because Lions Arch is filled with people wanting to do them. As for low to mid level zones, all I have to do is ask in chat if anyone wants to run the map and I get some yeah sures...and thats before I turn to my large guild filled with people wanting to do things, even content they have done before because THE GAME IS DESIGNED FOR THAT...something so many just dont get because they dont want to break their old gaming habits.

    Does this mean I think all servers are like that? No...because im not a hater or a fanboy, I am realistic, some servers in ALL games have population issues.

    “I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INPosts: 3,734Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Grotar89
    Originally posted by Theocritus
    I think too many gamers think B2P is the same as F2P because there is no sub fee......B2P basically forces you to pay your sub fees up front and gambles you wont play much longer than 3-4 months (which the statistics show that most gamers dont)..... Also alot of games that have B2P also offer cash shops or some other form of bringing in income.....Personally I dont like b2p....I like to move around and try new games and like many I often dont play most MMOs for more than a month or two so b2p for me is a bad model.

    How much would you spend on sub fee + box in Sub base MMO ? Around 230 euros/dolars for 1 year ?

    How much would you spend in GW2 for the same time ? 50 dolars/euros !!!! + you dont have to buy anything from cash shop,

    B2P is a bad model for you ? So you like to buy box and pay sub for around 2months and if you want to come back you have to pay sub once again... That is better model for you?

           hehe I never once said p2p was the better model....If you do indeed have to buy the box then p2p is an awful model...Alot of MMOs (especially the few older ones that are p2p) offer free download then you pay a monthly...What a game like GW2 is doing is gambling that they will make more off of you making you pay 50-60 dollars up front than they would have if they offered the game for free but with a monthly sub.....In that scenario they probably only make 15-30 dollars as most players will probably only stick with most MMOs for 1-2 months nowadays.....In rererence as to what I personally like, I think f2p is the best model because I determine exactly what I want to pay.

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,452Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Camaro68

    This is the story of Developer X and Gamer Joe:

     

    Developer X announces that it's upcoming game, Trojan Horses 2, will not have a sub fee.  Just buy the box and its yours to play for life with no sub fee whatsoever. 

     

    Launch day arrives and millions of players buy Trojan Horses 2 with visions of NO SUB FEE dancing in their head.  Developer X announces millions in sales.

     

    A few months later Gamer Joe is a little late to the party and decides to buy Trojan Horses 2 with a warm fuzzy feeling toward Developer X because there's NO SUB FEE.

     

    But then Gamer Joe logs into Trojan Horses 2 and finds there's hardly anybody in the game.  Wondering why he's playing a Massively Multiplayer game with hardly anybody in it, he turns to a internet message forum for answers.

    He explains how he logged into the game and had trouble finding anybody to group with. 

    Fanboy Y says Developer X is doing fine because it made all its money back with box sales.  He goes on to explain that Trojan Horses 2 doesn't need players to actually keep playing because all it ever needed was alot of box sales to be successful.

    Ok but what does "buy to play" have to do that?

    Would it be different if it was a sub?

    Whether or not a game uses a sub to get its money has nothing to do with retaining players if the game play is good, compelling, etc. It might be an incentive for some players to stay playing if they don't have to pay every month but that has nothing to do with "He explains how he logged into the game and had trouble finding anybody to group with. "

  • ThorqemadaThorqemada BerlinPosts: 1,277Member Uncommon

    A real B2P MMO makes more money the less people stay to play.

    "Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"

    MWO Music Video - What does the Mech say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF6HYNqCDLI
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  • thinktank001thinktank001 oasisPosts: 2,027Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    The most expensive B2P game I've purchased is GW2 at $70 and then TSW at $30.  Subscriptions cost $120 to $180 per year ($10 - $15 / month) with the exception of long term annual commitments that can cost less per month.  Nearly every P2P game also has a box fee of $50 - $70 and a tertiary revenue generator like a cash shop, some sort of micro-transactions for digital items or rmt for in game cash.  It's just more expensive all the way around.

    B2P allows me unrestricted access to that content until the servers shut down.  P2P rents me temporary access to the servers until that time period runs out.

    The advantage of B2P is that the developer recoups a predictable up front cost and generates revenue for every account.  It has a small barrier to entry that discourages troll accounts.  Compared to P2P I'm more than happy with B2P and don't mind the box fee.  I also play a lot of F2P games and often buy a starter pack or something else in the store early, if I like the game, to support it.

    I think of my games as sub-free not B2P or F2P really.  Some have an up front loaded cost and others a back loaded cost.  Neither of which I mind and both models are working rather nicely for me because I also play several different games.

     

    What happens with the first expansion that you have to purchase?   Now you have restricted content.   Does that still qualify GW2 as B2P, or maybe your assumption that GW2 is B2P is wrong in the first place, and the game is just another cash shop based game with a box price and content packs.    

    It will be interesting to see how they deliver this first expansion.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by Camaro68
    This is the story of Developer X and Gamer Joe:Developer X announces that it's upcoming game, Trojan Horses 2, will not have a sub fee.  Just buy the box and its yours to play for life with no sub fee whatsoever. Launch day arrives and millions of players buy Trojan Horses 2 with visions of NO SUB FEE dancing in their head.  Developer X announces millions in sales.A few months later Gamer Joe is a little late to the party and decides to buy Trojan Horses 2 with a warm fuzzy feeling toward Developer X because there's NO SUB FEE.But then Gamer Joe logs into Trojan Horses 2 and finds there's hardly anybody in the game.  Wondering why he's playing a Massively Multiplayer game with hardly anybody in it, he turns to a internet message forum for answers.He explains how he logged into the game and had trouble finding anybody to group with. Fanboy Y says Developer X is doing fine because it made all its money back with box sales.  He goes on to explain that Trojan Horses 2 doesn't need players to actually keep playing because all it ever needed was alot of box sales to be successful.

    Gamer Joe should have done some research before buying the game.

    The problem described (no people) is not something that is related to the payment model. Other than the specific fanboy comments, this scenario could just as easily describe a F2P or Sub game.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • dimnikardimnikar ZanistanvillePosts: 271Member
    Originally posted by Thorqemada

    A real B2P MMO makes more money the less people stay to play.

    That's only true if they don't envision an alternate income source like a cash shop - which Trojan Horse 2 has.

    So in this case, they made a different bet - having enough people stay who use the cash shop. Which means their box price is lower than what they needed to turn their PROJECTED profit.

     

    Unless they somehow developed a support technique that costs next to nothing for them to operate (server maintenance, support staff). Unlikely.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,638Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by thinktank001

    What happens with the first expansion that you have to purchase?   Now you have restricted content.   Does that still qualify GW2 as B2P, or maybe your assumption that GW2 is B2P is wrong in the first place, and the game is just another cash shop based game with a box price and content packs.    

    It will be interesting to see how they deliver this first expansion.

    I agree with thinktank001 here. It's a free to play game with muvfuxxin amazing marketing. They positioned against sub games, avoided saying 'free to play' and sold a box up front. When players started in with the "buy to play" moniker, someone at ArenaNet probably landed a fat bonus for the year.

    Yes, somewhere once some GW2 web page said "You buy the box and then play for free." Wanted to get that out there before some clown posted that as 'proofs' the devs ever used the term. 

    It's a free to play game, and they played the raging F2P haters perfectly - not only did many of them play their free to play game, but they paid 60 bucks to do it, as well. 

     

    IMO, GW2 is one of the best F2P games I've ever played. 

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
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  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,187Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by thinktank001

    What happens with the first expansion that you have to purchase?   Now you have restricted content.   Does that still qualify GW2 as B2P, or maybe your assumption that GW2 is B2P is wrong in the first place, and the game is just another cash shop based game with a box price and content packs.    

    It will be interesting to see how they deliver this first expansion.

    I agree with thinktank001 here. It's a free to play game with muvfuxxin amazing marketing. They positioned against sub games, avoided saying 'free to play' and sold a box up front. When players started in with the "buy to play" moniker, someone at ArenaNet probably landed a fat bonus for the year.

    Yes, somewhere once some GW2 web page said "You buy the box and then play for free." Wanted to get that out there before some clown posted that as 'proofs' the devs ever used the term. 

    It's a free to play game, and they played the raging F2P haters perfectly - not only did many of them play their free to play game, but they paid 60 bucks to do it, as well. 

     

    IMO, GW2 is one of the best F2P games I've ever played. 

    Do we still have to have the "what is a f2p game" in 2013?  Is box fee some sort of new and vodoo marketing method?  They charge an up front fee for access to their game.  That fee provides access to that game.  If they add additional content and charge for it you don't lose the previous content purchase.  There is no smoke and mirrors here.

    They could market it several different ways.  It could go the traditional xpac method as in WoW, EQ2, and Rift where you need the base game.  How they choose to bundle that is just a detail.

    They could also go the standalone route in GW1.  The xpac is standalone and shares core features, such as classes, but content areas are restricted.

    Or they could provide budding expansions where they work off the base game, but you don't need other xpacs to play the one you want to buy.  I don't think they will go this route.

    I think they might choose combinations of the first two.  Either way I'm not losing access to Tyria.

    edit:  Since most p2p games now also have a cash shop, micro-transactions, or rmt of some nature, I don't think it's a singular criticism of f2p or b2p anymore.

  • HorrorScopeHorrorScope Norcal, CAPosts: 612Member
    Joe Late2Party, will have a chance come the 28th with guesting. It looks like a few days after that is live people will be able to guest on two other servers. The community will work on which PvE servers you want to be add, so they will be populated for you.
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