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  • MeriliremMerilirem Port AugustaPosts: 77Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by Merilirem
     
    I fully understand the joys of hulk smashing Loki, which was awesome. I simply mean that an intellectual pursuit, such as reading is deeper and more thought provoking, entrancing if you will, than your average movie of the same vein. I in no way meant to undermine movies or the thrill of visuals being thrown in your face. Movies are more relaxing in a way, since they don't require the same effort. I simply wished to use movies and books as an example. A good game after all can provide both visuals and deep story, dragging the player into a world of fantasy in a way which is hard for entirely visual or written experiences. I in no way wish to say that any form of entertainment is more valid than another, like you said simply in different ways.

    ANd to expand on the point .. there are different style of entertaining gameplay experience, as different from books to movies.

    I recently play a puzzle game on my iPad called The ROOM. Great game. Nothing but thinking and making connection .. more like a book. But at the same time, on the other spectrum, games does not have to be deep in story to be good. Diablo has a very thin story, but deep in combat mechanics .. and awesome as you can blow up many mobs at the same time.

    I think it is a mistake to think that a MMO has to have this, or has to have that .. it is simply a matter of preference. Some enjoy playing a MMO like a SP game. Some enjoy playing a MMO like a lobby co-op game. Some enjoy a MMO as a world. Not everyone needs a deep world with a real population to enjoy a MMO.

     

    As I previously stated i in no way think any type of game or anything in this world is more valid than another. An MMO can be whatever we make it, a good game is whatever people want. The only problem is when what people want isn't being done, you can't play a Game that doesn't exist. So I ask what part people most enjoy, what role they would take. The fact is that many people are not having their needs met or simply don't think about it. Imagine if we only had movies or books not both. The existing games will in no way be affected by making a game to cater to those who enjoy a more diverse in depth game experience, unless of course the market decides otherwise. An in-depth experience does not just refer to story, as that is only a single aspect. A carefully crafted gameplay experience in which players can all find something they want to engage in and play without being constrained to any pre existing notions of what a game "should" be. Should not our technological advancements be used to their fullest? If people simply do not like something it will obviously die, but even herbivores will eat meat in order to survive. I do not pretend to know everything, I simply wish to converse with as many people as possible to determine whether peoples thoughts match my own personal experience in any given way. I will be just as satisfied to be disproven in my theories, so I welcome anyone to try with logical arguments and their own personal experiences and thoughts on the matter.

    If a butterfly learnt to speak, to live in human society, paid its bills, had a job, lived in a fancy house and married a human, is it human?

    Now what if that same butterfly knew how to write code better than any human and had years of experience in the game industry, would that make it a game designer?

    If u wouldn't let a construction worker design your house, then why let a programmer design your world?

  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,927Member Uncommon

    Answered " Adventurer, explorer, just run about the place, maybe be a bard."

     

    One of the things that can really throw a game for me is when NPCs treat me like I'm some sort of member of their military.

     

    Pfft.  I did that once in real life, now I'm playing one in a game?  No thanks.

     


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now turned Amateur Game Developer.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  Realm Lords 2 on MMORPG.com
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member

    Great topic, OP. Welcome aboard!

    I am all for choices and I generally dislike combat, avoiding it if I can. Combat is good now and again, even necessary at times, but I tire of it quickly and it soon becomes a chore getting from point A to point B. No, I am not seeking a "combat free" MMORPG :)

    The thing is, all of the choices in the poll can co-exist. They just do not, but in a very few select games.

    The book analogies are kind of interesting. How much actual fighting happens in Game of Thrones? It is written more about the characters and the interactions between them, not going out to kill Uber Troll all the time. I really cannot think of any book I have ever read that was 85% or more fighting. They may exist, I just have not read them. Yet MMOs want to be 85% or more about combat. This is great if that is what you like to do. Not so much if you would rather be doing other activities.

    YAY! For freedom of choice!

    PS: Loktofeit, pardon my ignorance, but what are "PBBGs"?

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • Shadow-FocusShadow-Focus Bognor RegisPosts: 13Member
    A God-less, terrifying assassin. Rarely seen by daylight and known only by those few in her secretive guild. A master apothecary and collector of rare valuables...hic!

    Played - WoW, LotRO, AoC, WAR, Aion, Rift, SWtOR.

    Playing - GW2

    Want - TESO, Neverwinter, Titan

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    I think it is a mistake to think that a MMO has to have this, or has to have that .. it is simply a matter of preference. Some enjoy playing a MMO like a SP game. Some enjoy playing a MMO like a lobby co-op game. Some enjoy a MMO as a world. Not everyone needs a deep world with a real population to enjoy a MMO.
    Then you are in the wrong genre of games.

    Do you expect your puzzle games to have vast open worlds to explore?
    Do you expect your FPS games to have intricate puzzles to decode?
    Do you expect your Diablo IIIs to have in depth character development?

    Why, oh why do you keep insisting on making MMOs massive FPS games? We all know you think anything besides combat is boring in an MMO. You have stated that well, and quite often. You hold up Diablo III as the ultimate MMO. You mention it in about 80% of your posts that I read since it came out.

    Unfortunately, the majority of MMO players today feel as you do. MMOs have changed, just like Coke did when they tried their "new formula." This time, though, the change is taking hold. That leaves us "old timers" with very slim pickings to play for MMOs. What other genre of computer gaming offers vast open worlds with a slew of activities with other people to keep one occupied? What genre do I look to now for this type of entertainment? Tell me and I will leave MMOs alone, never looking back.

    I feel like I do when in this real life scenario. A group of people are at a party, possibly outside having a good time. They happen to be smoking. Soon another person comes along to join in on the fun, but they not only dislike smoking, they detest it. Pretty soon, they are complaining about all the smoke. Instead of going somewhere where there is no smoking, they want to change what already is to suit them. Never mind that 5-10 others are there enjoying themselves. Never mind that they went where they went so as to not interrupt others enjoyment of the party. No. Instead of creating a new group of people to have a good time with, this person decides to change what is, into what they want.

    This is happening with MMOs today.

    I'm sorry for the outburst. It is just that your posts, and others like them, get on my nerves. Why change something that was good to begin with? Because it does not meet "your" own criteria? Then why did you start playing in the first place? Why not play your Diablo III games and have fun with them? They have their own genre.

    It is because the majority of players agree with your thoughts. This really makes me sad. You, and those millions of other players, have taken a whole genre of gaming away from me. A genre I enjoyed playing "way back when." Now, there is no genre like the old MMORPGs.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • FdzzaiglFdzzaigl Somewhere in nowherePosts: 2,327Member Uncommon

    As long as I'm not forced to either grind hundreds of thousands of mobs as a hero, or farm one billion materials and spend weeks doing boring repetitive activities as a farmer, I see potential for either role or anything in between them.

    Sadly, the above seems to be the exact definition many games have of such roles.

     

    I just want fun games where the available roles respect the setting.

    Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,672Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    I have a question. In games that allow a more non combat role, like older MMO, how many crafting professions could you have at a single time?

    Was it locked to a few at a time like current mmo?

    Most don't lock you into a single skill or single skill set.

    In UO, you have about 700-750 points you can allocate. Cap for a skill is 100 (125 with bonuses). For most skills, you don't need 100 in a skill to do everything it offers either. So, while you can't take all the skills the game offers, you havce freedom to pick and choose which you want.

    In EVE, you can take any skills you want and have as many skills as you want. Your limitation is time, as skill gain is done passively over real time.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member

    My primary interest in MMOs is exploration and adventure. Getting a bit sick of these 'you are all epic heroes on an epic journey' type games. Leave that for single player RPGs where stories actually work and don't seem as contrived as 'thousands and thousands of people are epic heroes'.

    MMOs are about being part of a living breathing world and taking down monsters as part of a team. Not as an individual superhero.

  • oubersoubers bazelPosts: 876Member Common
    Originally posted by madazz
    Reminds me of UO again lol, my buddy was a Treasure Hunter (map reading and stuff) on one char, and a blacksmith/miner on another. Then he had his swordsmen. Meanwhile, I had another buddy who mastered in workworking/lumberjack... had a theif too and a third that he used as a healer with ghost speak. Then me, I had my mage/tamer, swordsman, theif and my tracker! Tracking was pretty enjoyable at first, but I ended up enjoying taming more. Was fun to go out and tame some mounts for people that they hadn't seen before and sell them at the bank. 

    i miss those days :)

     

    image
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    I think it is a mistake to think that a MMO has to have this, or has to have that .. it is simply a matter of preference. Some enjoy playing a MMO like a SP game. Some enjoy playing a MMO like a lobby co-op game. Some enjoy a MMO as a world. Not everyone needs a deep world with a real population to enjoy a MMO.

    Then you are in the wrong genre of games.

    This is happening with MMOs today.

    I'm sorry for the outburst. It is just that your posts, and others like them, get on my nerves. Why change something that was good to begin with? Because it does not meet "your" own criteria? Then why did you start playing in the first place? Why not play your Diablo III games and have fun with them? They have their own genre.

    It is because the majority of players agree with your thoughts. This really makes me sad. You, and those millions of other players, have taken a whole genre of gaming away from me. A genre I enjoyed playing "way back when." Now, there is no genre like the old MMORPGs.

    LOL ..of course i play Diablo.

    But if a MMO plays like Diablo, why shouldn't i play it if i like Diablo?

    You are horribly confused about me want to change anything. I am not a developers. I don't change games. I only play what i like. And if devs of MMOs want my business, and dev MMOs that play in the style i like, who am i to say no?

    You sounds like genres are fixed, and i need to only consider "genre" that i like. I laugh at that kind of inflexibility. I look at all games, if it plays in ways i like, i play it. I don't play MMOs. I don't play FPS. I don't play ARPG. I play fun (to me) games and disregard genre lines.

    That is why i think innovation is about crossing, and ignoring genre convention. Look at Borderland  ... very fun game. It is a FPS. It is a RPG. Who cares what genre it is in?

    Look at STO. I like the story mission. I will play it as SP. Who cares it is supposed to be a world.

    And you sound like others are trying to get you .. "take a whole genre away from me" .. me me me. Here is the deal. Few cares. They just go to gamestop, or go online, and try out games, and play those they like. No one is trying to get you. Genre changes all the time.

    For example, i love locked room mysteries, but they are not written in the US after the golden age of John Dickson Carr. Do i cry and rant and complain about novel readers having bad taste? No, i find something else to do (or read the old ones).

     

  • madazzmadazz A town, ONPosts: 1,564Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    I think it is a mistake to think that a MMO has to have this, or has to have that .. it is simply a matter of preference. Some enjoy playing a MMO like a SP game. Some enjoy playing a MMO like a lobby co-op game. Some enjoy a MMO as a world. Not everyone needs a deep world with a real population to enjoy a MMO.

    Then you are in the wrong genre of games.

     

    Do you expect your puzzle games to have vast open worlds to explore?
    Do you expect your FPS games to have intricate puzzles to decode?
    Do you expect your Diablo IIIs to have in depth character development?

    Why, oh why do you keep insisting on making MMOs massive FPS games? We all know you think anything besides combat is boring in an MMO. You have stated that well, and quite often. You hold up Diablo III as the ultimate MMO. You mention it in about 80% of your posts that I read since it came out.

    Unfortunately, the majority of MMO players today feel as you do. MMOs have changed, just like Coke did when they tried their "new formula." This time, though, the change is taking hold. That leaves us "old timers" with very slim pickings to play for MMOs. What other genre of computer gaming offers vast open worlds with a slew of activities with other people to keep one occupied? What genre do I look to now for this type of entertainment? Tell me and I will leave MMOs alone, never looking back.

    I feel like I do when in this real life scenario. A group of people are at a party, possibly outside having a good time. They happen to be smoking. Soon another person comes along to join in on the fun, but they not only dislike smoking, they detest it. Pretty soon, they are complaining about all the smoke. Instead of going somewhere where there is no smoking, they want to change what already is to suit them. Never mind that 5-10 others are there enjoying themselves. Never mind that they went where they went so as to not interrupt others enjoyment of the party. No. Instead of creating a new group of people to have a good time with, this person decides to change what is, into what they want.

    This is happening with MMOs today.

    I'm sorry for the outburst. It is just that your posts, and others like them, get on my nerves. Why change something that was good to begin with? Because it does not meet "your" own criteria? Then why did you start playing in the first place? Why not play your Diablo III games and have fun with them? They have their own genre.

    It is because the majority of players agree with your thoughts. This really makes me sad. You, and those millions of other players, have taken a whole genre of gaming away from me. A genre I enjoyed playing "way back when." Now, there is no genre like the old MMORPGs.

    Preach on!

  • madazzmadazz A town, ONPosts: 1,564Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    I think it is a mistake to think that a MMO has to have this, or has to have that .. it is simply a matter of preference. Some enjoy playing a MMO like a SP game. Some enjoy playing a MMO like a lobby co-op game. Some enjoy a MMO as a world. Not everyone needs a deep world with a real population to enjoy a MMO.

    Then you are in the wrong genre of games.

    This is happening with MMOs today.

    I'm sorry for the outburst. It is just that your posts, and others like them, get on my nerves. Why change something that was good to begin with? Because it does not meet "your" own criteria? Then why did you start playing in the first place? Why not play your Diablo III games and have fun with them? They have their own genre.

    It is because the majority of players agree with your thoughts. This really makes me sad. You, and those millions of other players, have taken a whole genre of gaming away from me. A genre I enjoyed playing "way back when." Now, there is no genre like the old MMORPGs.

    LOL ..of course i play Diablo.

    But if a MMO plays like Diablo, why shouldn't i play it if i like Diablo?

    You are horribly confused about me want to change anything. I am not a developers. I don't change games. I only play what i like. And if devs of MMOs want my business, and dev MMOs that play in the style i like, who am i to say no?

    You sounds like genres are fixed, and i need to only consider "genre" that i like. I laugh at that kind of inflexibility. I look at all games, if it plays in ways i like, i play it. I don't play MMOs. I don't play FPS. I don't play ARPG. I play fun (to me) games and disregard genre lines.

    That is why i think innovation is about crossing, and ignoring genre convention. Look at Borderland  ... very fun game. It is a FPS. It is a RPG. Who cares what genre it is in?

    Look at STO. I like the story mission. I will play it as SP. Who cares it is supposed to be a world.

    And you sound like others are trying to get you .. "take a whole genre away from me" .. me me me. Here is the deal. Few cares. They just go to gamestop, or go online, and try out games, and play those they like. No one is trying to get you. Genre changes all the time.

    For example, i love locked room mysteries, but they are not written in the US after the golden age of John Dickson Carr. Do i cry and rant and complain about novel readers having bad taste? No, i find something else to do (or read the old ones).

     

    When something becomes radically different from the genre it spawned from it becomes its own genre. You like a different breed of games altogether. Not MMO's. MMO's are already highly defined. Your wants do not coincide with the MMO genre. They coincide with co-op and single player games.

  • madazzmadazz A town, ONPosts: 1,564Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by oubers
    Originally posted by madazz
    Reminds me of UO again lol, my buddy was a Treasure Hunter (map reading and stuff) on one char, and a blacksmith/miner on another. Then he had his swordsmen. Meanwhile, I had another buddy who mastered in workworking/lumberjack... had a theif too and a third that he used as a healer with ghost speak. Then me, I had my mage/tamer, swordsman, theif and my tracker! Tracking was pretty enjoyable at first, but I ended up enjoying taming more. Was fun to go out and tame some mounts for people that they hadn't seen before and sell them at the bank. 

    i miss those days :)

     

    As do I! I hate them too because its like having the best sandwich ever and never being able to have it again. All the ingredients are there, but apparently its too hard to put together :(

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by madazz
     

    When something becomes radically different from the genre it spawned from it becomes its own genre. You like a different breed of games altogether. Not MMO's. MMO's are already highly defined. Your wants do not coincide with the MMO genre. They coincide with co-op and single player games.

    Who cares what genre the games are in if they are fun.

    If you are so hung up on what they are called, try to get the whole industry change MMO to something else. When you are successful, i will use the new term.

    If STO, DCUO, PS2, DDO ... oh and the upcoming Marvel Heroes are still in the MMO genre, i am playing MMOs.

    And who says MMO has no co-op and SP gameplay? I am playing STO mission like a SP game last night.

  • MeriliremMerilirem Port AugustaPosts: 77Member

    I felt this thread to be of value to my own machinations http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/371070/page/1

    His question shows great insight into people. I tend to be unable to ask the right questions alot of the time and his is proving to elicit very worthwhile responses from the community. Many of which I agree with and have been attempting to probe with my own threads. Although in a slightly different manner, I feel it shares common ground.

    If a butterfly learnt to speak, to live in human society, paid its bills, had a job, lived in a fancy house and married a human, is it human?

    Now what if that same butterfly knew how to write code better than any human and had years of experience in the game industry, would that make it a game designer?

    If u wouldn't let a construction worker design your house, then why let a programmer design your world?

  • tollboothtollbooth grants pass, ORPosts: 298Member
    This is something that pissed me off to no end in GW2.  Everyone is THE HERO.  Not even A hero just The Hero like the rest of the people playing the game are not even there. 
  • Lovely_LalyLovely_Laly genevaPosts: 734Member

    I think I need whole list for not to be bored. =D

    I enjoy a bit of fight (better inside dungeon then dumb repetitive quests); enjoy good story line and cut scenes; then explorations, discovery and such; then why not crafting; after that I can enjoy fishing if it designed in nice and relax way; I would love to enjoy my house too, take care and bring new design there, may be have garden and grow nice flowers; I would love to make changes of my avatar, new look means less boredom and more enjoyment; trade itself I don't like but "explore" shops and action house, pretty much and make good money out of it.

    I enjoy games where you can do a lot of different activities, only are not many of such games, so when I'm telling it has no content or boring, people think I troll them.

    But all I want is game with large and good designed content, like WoW and very few others.

    try before buy, even if it's a game to avoid bad surprises.
    Worst surprises for me: Aion, GW2

  • AgentAnarkiiAgentAnarkii Bassett, VAPosts: 173Member
    Originally posted by Wickedjelly
    I want to be the dude playing a mean cowbell

    This haha

    but seriously, i'd want to be an ex-ranger, who got fed up with the crooked ass king and left to estabilish his own tavern in some foreign land. And eventually when the crooked ass king comes to invade the land the peoples of said landcome to him for his help and he reluctantly says yes, not because he wants to help, but because he hates that damn king. 

  • Baramos79Baramos79 Indianapolis, INPosts: 73Member
    I earned my place, among the masses, I am truly singular through my own effort and skill, unique title/position.
  • Raithe-NorRaithe-Nor Moscow, IDPosts: 315Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Who cares what genre the games are in if they are fun.

    If you are so hung up on what they are called, try to get the whole industry change MMO to something else. When you are successful, i will use the new term.

    If STO, DCUO, PS2, DDO ... oh and the upcoming Marvel Heroes are still in the MMO genre, i am playing MMOs.

    And who says MMO has no co-op and SP gameplay? I am playing STO mission like a SP game last night.

    When the current MMO industry starts being sustainably successful, you have an argument.

    The very fact that nomenclature is being used as a diversion forecasts the inevitable fail of a development strategy.  People don't like being fooled, especially in their recreational activities.  It's best to call a spade a spade, and calling 8-player instanced combat an "MMO' defies every rule of nomenclature that exists.

    Plus, we all know that as soon as someone tries to set themself apart and claim to be "old-style" massively-multiplayer, the parasites are just bright enough to recognize the name change and show up there, regardless.

    It really isn't about the name of the genre.  It's that some players have found a way to feed off from other people not even playing their same game.  Until the parasites are dealt with, the hosts will never have a home.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member

    I do have a question regarding the op's sig:

    "If u wouldn't let a construction worker design your house, then why let a programmer design your world?"

    When you can do it better, feel free to step up. Perhaps someone will even pay you to do so.

    Until then, get cause and effect placed properly. You aren't "let"ting him design your world. You are, in fact, paying for the privledge of enjoying his.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • Raithe-NorRaithe-Nor Moscow, IDPosts: 315Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite

    When you can do it better, feel free to step up. Perhaps someone will even pay you to do so.  Until then, get cause and effect placed properly. You aren't "let"ting him design your world. You are, in fact, paying for the privledge of enjoying his.

    As players, we are in a general sense, the investors of it all.  Some projects are currently being entirely funded by player dollars before the game is even released.  It's called kick-starting.

    So your comment is off-base for at least four different reasons:

    1) The comment was targetted towards a developer audience, not an audience composed of himself (very few comments are ever self-intended)

    2) The point was mostly that software programming expertise does not necessarily equate to game design expertise.  The point is unecessary because very few game development companies actually have programmers designing their game.  They generally have separate game design and tech development departments.  The sad part is that the programmers would probably do a better job in the vast majority of current cases (meaning the game design field has been infiltrated by the most incompetent of all potential employees).

    3) As players of what should have been a player-driven game genre, designing our own worlds should have been part of the package.  It's called DM-ing, or modding, depending on the setup.

    4) Some MMOs are currently free, so we aren't paying anyone and they aren't getting reimbursement.  Who develops what still has an impact on what enjoyment is derived.

    I do admit that your unintelligible trolling is some of the more eloquent I've seen.

  • AmarantharAmaranthar OhioPosts: 2,430Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Icewhite

    I do have a question regarding the op's sig:

    "If u wouldn't let a construction worker design your house, then why let a programmer design your world?"

    When you can do it better, feel free to step up. Perhaps someone will even pay you to do so.

    Until then, get cause and effect placed properly. You aren't "let"ting him design your world. You are, in fact, paying for the privledge of enjoying his.

    Privilege? You mean to say that if I go to McD's and buy a burger it's my privilege to pay for it? Even if the burger they give me turns out to be pink slime?  Is it my privilege to pay for that too?

    Once upon a time....

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Amaranthar

    Privilege? You mean to say that if I go to McD's and buy a burger it's my privilege to pay for it? Even if the burger they give me turns out to be pink slime?  Is it my privilege to pay for that too?

    Yep. You're payihg for it, you must desire it. If you could make your own that was more delicious, why are you not doing so?

    Not quite how business works. They make a product. If you want it, you pay for it. If you don't, then...don't.

    Telling the drug dealer how awful his drugs are while holding out the cash for more with shaking hands doesn't really convince much of anyone.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • Raithe-NorRaithe-Nor Moscow, IDPosts: 315Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite

    Not quite how business works. They make a product. If you want it, you pay for it. If you don't, then...don't.

    We don't, and they go out of business.  It's an old story in the MMO industry.

    And it's not the only way things work.  Not even close.

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