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Well for me it is all about rejection. If you make a bad game you need for it to blow up in your face. We had so many bad games over the past 3 years all one can do is hope they blow up, and the devs learn not to keep giving us the same dog and pony show.
Originally posted by botrytis Again - people who are saying 'it is because they don't know how to write a game' or 'is following WoW' or any of the other of the 'multitude of hater platitudes' really need to understand how games are designed, developed, coded, etc. It they actually understood it, they might be able to understand it is easy to be a critic, hard to be an expert. And don't say I went to college for game programming either,college education is one part, real world experience is the other. The honest thing is, these game companies are made of fans, just like us. BUT, they have to work in the real world where money talks. If a game makes no money, it dies. Sandbox games have a very small market draw, there I said it. If you think not, then why aren't there more sandbox games out there? Companies need to continually draw new people into the market, if they don't then the market can only support so many games. It will eventually peak, but right now, it is not.
Actually we don't really know what the market share of sandbox MMO gamers is because the industry hasn't actually seen one in neary a decade! EVE is the only major one and it's a very niche scifi setting without a normal character avatar (for the main gameplay anyway). If a major developer/publisher gave a proper sandbox MMO a shot I reckon people would be surprised at the reception it got; most players on forums like these have never actually played a true sandbox and don't really know how they work, they just shoot them down because there aren't many out there so they can't be popular apparently.
It's ironic that you mention continually drawing new people though considering EVE is the only MMO that has shown a continual growth of subscription numbers since its launch whilst all the themepark games lose 50% or more of their subs within the first few months... If anything the evidence indicates the reality to be the opposite of what you claim. If companies wanted a stable, growing subscription base then sandbox is actually proven to be the way to go... Themepark is only good for box sales now.
With regards to main topic of this thread though: It's the teardown mentality. Due to the time investment required for most MMOs people need to reassure themselves that the time they're wasting on a single game is being wasted on the best available. They cannot accept that there might be a better game out there as it would render their time investment worthless as they would likely have to switch games... Instead they just criticise and 'hate' on the newer games to reassure themselves that their choice was the good one.
I speak only for myself but I enjoy it because every time an MMO dies, I believe it might send a message to the remaining ones to "get good or die".
Originally posted by dave6660 Because I'm a narcissistic, evil, vindictive bastard.
Actually I believe that really is a case. No sane, respectfull person who cares about others would wish MMO or any other thing to do badly... for people to loose jobs etc.
Only people who care about themselves and think that their opinion is "The Truth" can wish something like that.
There are many many people who enjoy the game and would never want to have it shut down... is it not selfish to wish for it do die?
Sith Warrior - Story of Hate and Love http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxKrlwXt7AoImperial Agent - Rise of Cipher Nine http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBBj3eJWBvU&feature=youtu.beImperial Agent - Hunt for the Eagle Part 1http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQqjYYU128E
Originally posted by Sevenstar61 Originally posted by dave6660 Because I'm a narcissistic, evil, vindictive bastard.
Seven, when those people were screaming "WoW Killer" up and down why was it ok for them to do it and preach the death of wow but we can't now return the favor ?
I think this about sums it up for most people:
guy 1 is screaming "my mmo will kill your MMO".
later guy 2 screams "na na na na na your mmo is dead. bam, bitch".
Originally posted by Deddpool They want the mmo they are not playing to fail, because its not THEIR mmo..since they are putting money is X mmo, then all others must die to justify spending their money. Stupid.
mmo's are doing poorly, some are dying. the more they die that aren't the ones I play, the better the noes i play will be due to recycled playerbase.
where's the stupidity?
Originally posted by tollbooth People get happy because if a game they don't like gets shut down then there will be fewer renditions of that style in the future.
This is funny. Why would they draw that particular conclusion? Maybe the conclusion would be "hey, we didn't execute on the crafting well enough." Or, "hey, we need to get the theme and backdrop down better next time."
The assumption that a "bad" MMO dying will somehow result in more "good" (e.g., the commenter's style of MMO, whatever that may be) MMOs being created is patently ludicrous.
And this kind of attitude isn't from a 12-year old or self-centered at all: "Who cares if other people are playing and enjoying a game if it's not the style I want? All must die to fulfill my MMO dream." Really?
Conflict of egos really. A quick read through this thread should really tell you all you need to know.
When people start taking another's opinion as a personal affront instead of just a differing veiwpoint, the argument tends to stop being about the actual sucject at hand and more about one faction trying to one up the other. It becomes personal. This is why we have such non sequiturs as troll, hater, fanboi, shill, and haters gonna hate. Which are all not only incredibly childish responses but also devices to discredit that the individual or faction they disagree with could possibly even have a rational or logical point to make. So the arguments continue, louder and louder, until it gives rise to the black hatred where people are actually delighted to see a game stumble or fail just so they can feel they got one over on the self preceived "enemy" that refused to take their opinions seriously, whether said opinions where justified or not.
If you dont do stupid things while youre young, youll have nothing to smile about when youre old.
Originally posted by botrytis Originally posted by Kyleran It's nothing personal. Simple fact is I want new MMORPG's to be built that incorporate some of the features and designs that I prefer, and currently the main focus of most titles is decidedly different from that. Way I see it, the only way I'll ever have a chance of seeing a bit more variation in the feature sets of new games is for the current crop being delivered to fail, and fail miserably. Yeah, I know my view is selfish, I'm just like that what can I say. Unfortunately game design more or less follows the herd in terms of design so I need to see the herd run right off the cliff in order for there to be a chance of something more to my liking being delivered. Good news for most other folks is that my campaign so far has only been partially successful. Plenty of titles keep crashing against the rocks, but developers keep sending us the same thing again and again. (with some subtle variations I'll grant) Or maybe like that other guy said, I'm just a douche.
The problem is - it is personal - when you are selfish it is personal.
People think they know what goes into game design but they really don't because they haven't done it. Just because they know what what they want in a game doesn't mean it is possible. I said this before, all games, cars, etc anything designed is a compromise. We have had no-compromise cars, take the Bugatti Veryon, at 1.5 million dollars a car - it is a statement but that is it. Same can be said with games. One could make a no-compromise game but would people be able to afford the price of it or let alone the PC to play it? Probably not. To make things the costs more realistic, they have to compromise. Unfortunately, people with opinions do not have to compromise - they assume everything they want can be done, even if the actual game developer says it can't. An example of this was a recent thread here, about GW2, where people kept saying they want open world PvP and there were actual quotes, from A.Net developers, saying that Open world PvP cannot be put in the game because the game wasn't designed for it.
I broadly agree with this.
I'd like to add though that it has also to do with the base of users here. A lot of them simply do not like the way MMO's have gone since they first discovered them and have the naive notion that if developers went back to, 'basics', that would work, while completely ignoring their own personal nostalgia.
There's also the naive idea that if a lot of these, 'WoW clone', games failed then developers would simply start making games to these guys wishlist. Truth is, the investors involved with raising the capital would simply look to other markets to invest and large scale projects, like MMOs, wouldn't get made as there seen as too risky to make a profit on.
Were coming to the end of the gold rush in this market and it'd be better for a few successes then many failures if we want to see developers take chances with a new MMO.
This looks like a job for....The Riviera Kid!
There are valid reasons.
If you're a big fan of the MMO genre and you think that genre is being ruined by certain dynamics (I.E. instancing, de-emphasizing communitiy) then big money games that use those dynamics need to fail or they'll become an adopted norm.
If you're a big fan of a given IP and an MMO has come out based on that IP but the MMO in your opinion has handled it terribly (I.E. LoTRO, SWTOR, ESO), then your only hope to play an MMO based on your favorite IP is to hope the current version fails and a new better one is made.
Originally posted by Paradigm68 There are valid reasons. If you're a big fan of the MMO genre and you think that genre is being ruined by certain dynamics (I.E. instancing, de-emphasizing communitiy) then big money games that use those dynamics need to fail or they'll become an adopted norm. If you're a big fan of a given IP and an MMO has come out based on that IP but the MMO in your opinion has handled it terribly (I.E. LoTRO, SWTOR, ESO), then your only hope to play an MMO based on your favorite IP is to hope the current version fails and a new better one is made.
Again, your assumption that the fail would = a game made in the way you want is wishful thinking at its worst. It's more likely they won't create MMOs ever again, or try to do the the same style "better." A more productive path is to talk positively to the devs that are engaging their user bases and push for features you like.
When I see guys wrapping up games with same old s**t, new names and new sugar coated marketing words - of course I want them to fail.
If they want to make their own game and not just milk the 'old concept' cow, then they'll have my money and support. Otherwise they can burn.
This shows a fundamentally flawed logic that is pretty common amongst people that doesn't know how the real world works.
The logic of 'Failure = breeds innovation / better version' is flawed and history has proven time and again that it is false.
Why people still think this way I have no idea.
Gdemami -Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Originally posted by jpnz Originally posted by Paradigm68 There are valid reasons. If you're a big fan of the MMO genre and you think that genre is being ruined by certain dynamics (I.E. instancing, de-emphasizing communitiy) then big money games that use those dynamics need to fail or they'll become an adopted norm. If you're a big fan of a given IP and an MMO has come out based on that IP but the MMO in your opinion has handled it terribly (I.E. LoTRO, SWTOR, ESO), then your only hope to play an MMO based on your favorite IP is to hope the current version fails and a new better one is made.
Yup. Here's an example: the houses in Haiti were not built well, and certainly not to withstand a great earthquake. When the earthquake did hit, it did not suddenly result in the rise of excellent buildings in Haiti. The failure of an MMO will not suddenly result in better MMOs. There are way too many other conclusions to be drawn from the failure, and 98% of them will not be the ones you wish for.
Wow, just imagine how betamax fanbios feel about the demise of betamax......and those poor workers who made betamax......Couldnt we all please just keep them employed and celebrate them for making betamaxs ?
And of course lead paint, and those poor workers who made lead paint ....
Its not like bad products need to fail. Oh.... wait..... they kinda do......
Originally posted by Mortemia When I see guys wrapping up games with same old s**t, new names and new sugar coated marketing words - of course I want them to fail. If they want to make their own game and not just milk the 'old concept' cow, then they'll have my money and support. Otherwise they can burn.
That's a totally legit response, and voting with your wallet is certainly valid. But to get the game you want, you are better off finding and supporting a game that is closest to your ideal. If the devs are open to communication, you'll have better luck opening a dialogue with them to the get the features you want.
The burning down of MMOs you don't like will rarely result in ones you do.
Originally posted by tkobo Wow, just imagine how betamax fanbios feel about the demise of betamax......and those poor workers who made betamax......Couldnt we all please just keep them employed and celebrate them for making betamaxs ? And of course lead paint, and those poor workers who made lead paint .... Its not like bad products need to fail. Oh.... wait..... they kinda do......
There was an attractive alternative to betamax with VHS, and the market flocked to it. There was no need to actively push for its death, it happened by itself. And no one ever "enjoyed" lead point, so that's a no-brainer.
We're talking here about games that are liked by some that others want to destroy. Nothing being said here about supporting games no one likes, only games that some like and others don't.
Originally posted by bishbosh2 because it means that similar games will not be made in the future. eg. if wow had shutdown <6 months after launch we wouldnt have so many wow clones
Nope, it would probably be EQ, UO, or EVE clones, and then people would probably be complaining that there are too many of those existing and not enough that are more story-driven.
Originally posted by Yakkin Originally posted by bishbosh2 because it means that similar games will not be made in the future. eg. if wow had shutdown <6 months after launch we wouldnt have so many wow clones
More likely it would mean a dwindling MMO market. See, the problem with marketers is that they look at dollars, not the generator of the dollars. The most likely conclusion would be (falsely, I think) that "MMOs are no longer viable and we should stop making them."
See, the fallacy is in thinking that a company will draw a conclusion you agree with.
Originally posted by TheScavenger It doesn't make sense. And it is a growing problem...or the problem is just more noticeable with more people playing MMOs. So again...why do "some" people find enjoyment in a MMO being closed or doing badly?
1) People get hyped .. the game launches .. it's not up to their desires, and they react .. badly .. all the way to the final hour.
2) Paid shills sayin' what they're told to say.
3) Schaudenfr- .. naah, there's no such thing on the internet *rollseyes*
4) As was mentioned every so often, people are glad to see something they don't like gone, because it means there is a smaller chance a new game will be like the one that was ended.
Overly-pretentious verbose narcissistic verbiage goes here
That is not even close to true, there is obviously a few people that think this, but seriously, people are sick of 300000000000 mmos reskinned and sold as something new.
If you have been reading, most want these shit mmos to die, so they stop making them, if they start losing money on them, then they will stop making crap mmos.
So its not stupid, like the one guy said, we ant quality not quantity.