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How bad is the "dead mid-level zones" problem?

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  • eye_meye_m Notta Chance, ABPosts: 3,133Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Dream_Chaser
    Originally posted by Loke666

    But I think GW2 have less dead zones than most MMOs since you actually get some reward for completing lower zones.

    See, I can't buy that as being true. Why is it that every server I checked out had all waypoints contested in Orr? Why is it that a common, running joke on tumblr for quite some time was pretty much the same? Why are there loads of screenshots of Orr with every waypoint contested, completely empty of players? I just don't buy it. I know fans want me to buy it, but everything I've seen with my own two eyes is contrary to that.

    Let me paint you a picture. With a picture. That's just one I found whilst searching for a few seconds on the Internet, and there are hundreds more like it. If the servers are really so unabandoned, then why are waypoints everywhere so very contested? The empirical evidence is completely contrary to your opinion; yet it supports my own.

    So, here we have the obvious facts.

    1) You don't play the game

    2) You gain your perception, from a screenshot that you have no idea what server, what time of day, or what month even that it was taken

    3) This screenshot shows a small portion of a single map.

    4) You feel that you have a valid opinion to share, even though you are admittedly ignorant of any truth. 

     

    and the final FACT

     

    5) Every single post you ever make in the future is going to be interpreted as having come from the same quality of knowledge.

     

    thanks for sharing your ignorant, misinformed opinion and I honestly mean that in the nicest possible way.

    All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

    I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.

    I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member
    Originally posted by botrytis
     
    Sorry the areas in WoW are 2X smaller than GW1 - there was a discussion about this along time ago. GW1 and GW2 have basically the same area size. You really dont know what you are talking about. WoW has loading screens also - when you fly from area to area - that is a loading screen.

    In WoW, I can walk / mount / fly from one side of the continent (collection of areas) to the next without any loading screens.

    It gives this feeling of an actual continent since you can go through multiple areas.

    In GW2, I can walk from one AREA to the next and see a giant swirling portal with a loading screen at the end of it.

    Like I said, you just feel 'boxed in'.

    I really really want to know why ANet did it the way they did since it shatters the perception of 'world' and makes you feel like you aren't in a continent but in a game level.

    One loading screen to load up level 1-15 area!

    Another loading screen to load up level 15-30 area!

    etc.

     

     

    Back on topic, ANet accepted the problem 'as is' in the AMA which was 'mid level is dead'  so yes, it is factually (according to ANet) wasteland / dead / barren but the content can be done solo.

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • kitaradkitarad RomePosts: 1,744Member Uncommon
    When you fly in WoW that is a loading screen ? Have you even played WoW ? You can walk that distance and there is not one loading screen in between and that flight is over area and there is not I repeat IS NOT a loading screen unless it is between continents. The vessel between continents is the zeppelin and not the bat or griffin rides those are over area you can traverse by foot or horse/warg or whateevr mount. Come on Kalimdor and the other continent whose name escapes me where huge and much larger than one zone in GW 2. Please do not try to dissemble.

    image

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter BristolPosts: 2,811Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jpnz
    Originally posted by botrytis
     
    Sorry the areas in WoW are 2X smaller than GW1 - there was a discussion about this along time ago. GW1 and GW2 have basically the same area size. You really dont know what you are talking about. WoW has loading screens also - when you fly from area to area - that is a loading screen.

    In WoW, I can walk / mount / fly from one side of the continent (collection of areas) to the next without any loading screens.

    It gives this feeling of an actual continent since you can go through multiple areas.

    In GW2, I can walk from one AREA to the next and see a giant swirling portal with a loading screen at the end of it.

    Like I said, you just feel 'boxed in'.

    I really really want to know why ANet did it the way they did since it shatters the perception of 'world' and makes you feel like you aren't in a continent but in a game level.

    One loading screen to load up level 1-15 area!

    Another loading screen to load up level 15-30 area!

    etc.

     

     

    Back on topic, ANet accepted the problem 'as is' in the AMA which was 'mid level is dead'  so yes, it is factually (according to ANet) wasteland / dead / barren but the content can be done solo.

    On the other hand I can shoot my rifle in GW2 and bullets are actual projectiles that interact with the world.

    So sure, it feels like a world, but the way the world works shatters the perception it is a real thing. Feels like a movie set where everything is fake.

    So for now, either you have a real physics engine or a open world with few loading screens and few things happening without the player having to start it.

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,779Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jpnz

    I really really want to know why ANet did it the way they did since it shatters the perception of 'world' and makes you feel like you aren't in a continent but in a game level.

    They did it so that they could give you a game with better graphics than WoW.  It's all a matter of trade-offs.  You could have preferred that each area have half as many textures used twice as often in order to get rid of the loading screens, and that's perfectly legitimate.  Others would take the opposite view.  ArenaNet had to pick something and go with it.

    Though if you have map travel, you're going to have loading screens, regardless of any other trade-offs.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,779Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by kitarad
    When you fly in WoW that is a loading screen ? Have you even played WoW ? You can walk that distance and there is not one loading screen in between and that flight is over area and there is not I repeat IS NOT a loading screen unless it is between continents. The vessel between continents is the zeppelin and not the bat or griffin rides those are over area you can traverse by foot or horse/warg or whateevr mount. Come on Kalimdor and the other continent whose name escapes me where huge and much larger than one zone in GW 2. Please do not try to dissemble.

    While gryphon rides and so forth aren't exactly loading screens, they serve the same function as loading screens.  They force you on a particular route so that the game knows exactly what textures and models you will need loaded far ahead of time, and then can spend the route loading them and have all of the ones you need for the area when you land loaded when you get there.

  • PaRoXiTiCPaRoXiTiC Denison, TXPosts: 576Member Uncommon
    Just started a new thief on Magumma. I'm in the level 50 areas now and I haven't had any trouble finding people to do events with from 30-50.
  • ZorgoZorgo Deepintheheartof, TXPosts: 2,226Member
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by kitarad
    When you fly in WoW that is a loading screen ? Have you even played WoW ? You can walk that distance and there is not one loading screen in between and that flight is over area and there is not I repeat IS NOT a loading screen unless it is between continents. The vessel between continents is the zeppelin and not the bat or griffin rides those are over area you can traverse by foot or horse/warg or whateevr mount. Come on Kalimdor and the other continent whose name escapes me where huge and much larger than one zone in GW 2. Please do not try to dissemble.

    While gryphon rides and so forth aren't exactly loading screens, they serve the same function as loading screens.  They force you on a particular route so that the game knows exactly what textures and models you will need loaded far ahead of time, and then can spend the route loading them and have all of the ones you need for the area when you land loaded when you get there.

    The individual continents are non-instanced; the gryphon rides used to be the only way around, and thus you would be under the constraints you listed, but they re-designed the world with Cataclysm and you can take your own personal mount, not on a flight path and fly from zone to zone, not using pre-set paths, but however you want to fly there.

    Not trying to detract from your statement; WoW is still heavily instanced, but the 'world' in large part, is not.

  • fiontarfiontar Dana, MAPosts: 3,719Member
    Originally posted by jpnz
    Originally posted by botrytis
     
    Sorry the areas in WoW are 2X smaller than GW1 - there was a discussion about this along time ago. GW1 and GW2 have basically the same area size. You really dont know what you are talking about. WoW has loading screens also - when you fly from area to area - that is a loading screen.

    In WoW, I can walk / mount / fly from one side of the continent (collection of areas) to the next without any loading screens.

    It gives this feeling of an actual continent since you can go through multiple areas.

    In GW2, I can walk from one AREA to the next and see a giant swirling portal with a loading screen at the end of it.

    Like I said, you just feel 'boxed in'.

    I really really want to know why ANet did it the way they did since it shatters the perception of 'world' and makes you feel like you aren't in a continent but in a game level.

    One loading screen to load up level 1-15 area!

    Another loading screen to load up level 15-30 area!

    etc.

     

     

    Back on topic, ANet accepted the problem 'as is' in the AMA which was 'mid level is dead'  so yes, it is factually (according to ANet) wasteland / dead / barren but the content can be done solo.

    GW2 zones are large enough, content rich enough and detailed enough that you can spend 6-12 hours in a single zone. I've been working on world completion the past two weeks at a non-rushed pace and I hit a zone portal about every other day. Sorry, but that isn't immersion killing in any way, shape or form.

    I also prefer GW2s way point system. 5-15 minute flightpaths in WoW was never my idea of fun and seeing the ugly "seams" where the patchwork of zone designs fit together wasn't very conducive for immersion.

    Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
    image

  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghPosts: 4,942Member Uncommon
    In wow it is indeed not instances and you do get a better impression of flying over a real wild than gw2. Big but though, that wow world is as dead as a dodo appart from the daily quest hubs, it would be as well not being there as it offers 0 relevant beyond brief visitation by solo alts who don't talk as they rush to max level. Gw2 has a beautiful world which is alive. And let's not forget gw2 world is in its first year and like wow and gw1 before it will expand massively as well as probably spreading out as tech improves.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • fiontarfiontar Dana, MAPosts: 3,719Member
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by kitarad
    When you fly in WoW that is a loading screen ? Have you even played WoW ? You can walk that distance and there is not one loading screen in between and that flight is over area and there is not I repeat IS NOT a loading screen unless it is between continents. The vessel between continents is the zeppelin and not the bat or griffin rides those are over area you can traverse by foot or horse/warg or whateevr mount. Come on Kalimdor and the other continent whose name escapes me where huge and much larger than one zone in GW 2. Please do not try to dissemble.

    While gryphon rides and so forth aren't exactly loading screens, they serve the same function as loading screens.  They force you on a particular route so that the game knows exactly what textures and models you will need loaded far ahead of time, and then can spend the route loading them and have all of the ones you need for the area when you land loaded when you get there.

    I agree with Quizzical. It might as well be a really, really long loading screen. I think some of the longest flightpaths were close to 15 minutes of flight! People complain about 10 second load screens, try maintaining your patience when you have an hour to play WoW and it takes 15 minutes to fly to the zone you intend to play in!

    Flight paths weren't there for immersion in WoW, they were there as time sinks.

    GW2 isn't a subscription game and thus has no need for time sinks.

    Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
    image

  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member
    Originally posted by fiontar
     

    GW2 zones are large enough, content rich enough and detailed enough that you can spend 6-12 hours in a single zone. I've been working on world completion the past two weeks at a non-rushed pace and I hit a zone portal about every other day. Sorry, but that isn't immersion killing in any way, shape or form.

    I also prefer GW2s way point system. 5-15 minute flightpaths in WoW was never my idea of fun and seeing the ugly "seams" where the patchwork of zone designs fit together wasn't very conducive for immersion.

    Essentially you travelling from a boxed area to the next boxed area but in GW2 you get loading screens (and the portal) that makes that restrictive feeling even worse.

    Like I said, the whole thing is just;

    One loading screen for 1-15 area!

    One loading screen for 15-30 area!

    It just doesn't give that whole 'large world' vibe. I can understand why ANet decided to up the graphics rather than have a large open world but I would have preferred it the other way around.

     

    Last I checked, I can still walk / ride / fly from one end of the continent to the next in WoW. You can't in GW2 cause you are essentially travelling from one box to the next.

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghPosts: 4,942Member Uncommon
    What other way would allow the quality of content with an open world while being runnable on the average pc?

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member
    Originally posted by Bladestrom
    What other way would allow the quality of content with an open world while being runnable on the average pc?

    Quality of content or quality of graphics?

    Unless I'm missing something, the DE / mob (content) is handled server side.

     

    GW2 looks better than WoW; you'd hope so since WoW is what, 7 years old now?

    The trade-off of not having a 'world' but a series of connected boxes with large swirly portals at the end?

    Like I said, I personally would have gone the other way.

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghPosts: 4,942Member Uncommon
    Wow 95% of world is dead graphics with no life, no de etc, gw2 same size of world that is not dead, but has portals. I know exactly what you mean, and I would l would love no portals, but I don't really notice them - it's just a swirly graphic and a few seconds load time when you decide to move zones.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • natuxatunatuxatu Denver, COPosts: 1,371Member
    Having lvled up 3 to max and working on my forth I can tell you that it's pretty bad at mid-lvl in fact most people just skip it all together and dungeon run or craft past it, sadly... 

    image

  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member
    Originally posted by natuxatu
    Having lvled up 3 to max and working on my forth I can tell you that it's pretty bad at mid-lvl in fact most people just skip it all together and dungeon run or craft past it, sadly... 

    Currently leveling my 3rd just by WvW cause mid-level is dead.

    Hopefully the 'sometime in 2013 fix' will encourage people to be out in the world more.

    I am told one of the more popular ways is to grind gold in your 80s and craft your alt to 80.

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • A.BlacklochA.Blackloch NexusPosts: 831Member
    Man, I actually quit warhammer back in the days just because it felt like a singleplayer adventure due to lack of players. It was a cool game though. Guess I've missed the GW2 boat too then, wouldn't make sense to get it now.

    image image image

  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member
    Originally posted by Mortemia
    Man, I actually quit warhammer back in the days just because it felt like a singleplayer adventure due to lack of players. It was a cool game though. Guess I've missed the GW2 boat too then, wouldn't make sense to get it now.

    I'd say take a look later in the year.

    ANet has posted a bunch of stuff in their 2013 blog to 'fix' the problem. Actually about half of that blog was about the fix and the new game design they had to come up with as well.

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghPosts: 4,942Member Uncommon
    Couple things that could maybe increase mid zonelife more : better rewards (incoming I believe), de branching that leads to ultra tough champions that have a chance to drop new skills. Introduce hundreds of new skills and get a gw1 feel about builds.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • ZorgoZorgo Deepintheheartof, TXPosts: 2,226Member
    Originally posted by fiontar
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by kitarad
    When you fly in WoW that is a loading screen ? Have you even played WoW ? You can walk that distance and there is not one loading screen in between and that flight is over area and there is not I repeat IS NOT a loading screen unless it is between continents. The vessel between continents is the zeppelin and not the bat or griffin rides those are over area you can traverse by foot or horse/warg or whateevr mount. Come on Kalimdor and the other continent whose name escapes me where huge and much larger than one zone in GW 2. Please do not try to dissemble.

    While gryphon rides and so forth aren't exactly loading screens, they serve the same function as loading screens.  They force you on a particular route so that the game knows exactly what textures and models you will need loaded far ahead of time, and then can spend the route loading them and have all of the ones you need for the area when you land loaded when you get there.

    I agree with Quizzical. It might as well be a really, really long loading screen. I think some of the longest flightpaths were close to 15 minutes of flight! People complain about 10 second load screens, try maintaining your patience when you have an hour to play WoW and it takes 15 minutes to fly to the zone you intend to play in!

    Flight paths weren't there for immersion in WoW, they were there as time sinks.

    GW2 isn't a subscription game and thus has no need for time sinks.

    As stated earlier, this only applies to WoW pre-Cataclysm. You can fly anywhere you want with your own mount in Azeroth now. You are not set to the pinch points or the fly paths. 

  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    The problem is that you simply can't make the rewards comparable for everything.  Some things will inevitably give greater rewards than others, and players will figure it out.  You can nerf the rewards on what everyone is doing or increase the rewards of stuff that is mostly neglected, but that will merely change which particular content gives the best rewards.  If you're relying on rewards to get players to do content, you're never going to get anywhere near an equitable distribution of players.

    Yeah I think that is why they are taking the daily achievement path of funneling players to various areas.

    If you make a low level area give constantly good rewards, players will just exploit it since exotic geared 80s can destroy low level content.

  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member
    Originally posted by jpnz
    Originally posted by fiontar
     

    GW2 zones are large enough, content rich enough and detailed enough that you can spend 6-12 hours in a single zone. I've been working on world completion the past two weeks at a non-rushed pace and I hit a zone portal about every other day. Sorry, but that isn't immersion killing in any way, shape or form.

    I also prefer GW2s way point system. 5-15 minute flightpaths in WoW was never my idea of fun and seeing the ugly "seams" where the patchwork of zone designs fit together wasn't very conducive for immersion.

    Essentially you travelling from a boxed area to the next boxed area but in GW2 you get loading screens (and the portal) that makes that restrictive feeling even worse.

    Like I said, the whole thing is just;

    One loading screen for 1-15 area!

    One loading screen for 15-30 area!

    It just doesn't give that whole 'large world' vibe. I can understand why ANet decided to up the graphics rather than have a large open world but I would have preferred it the other way around.

     

    Last I checked, I can still walk / ride / fly from one end of the continent to the next in WoW. You can't in GW2 cause you are essentially travelling from one box to the next.

     You could say the same thing for WoW really.

    One loading screen for 1-30! Switch to the other continent.

    One loading screen for 30-60! Go to Outworld.

    One loading screen for 60-70! Go to Frozen Tundra.

    One loading screen for 70-80! Go to Pandaria.

    One loading screen for 80-90!

    How does that give a better impression than GW2? One zone in GW2 is almost the size of half a WoW continent anyway, and filled with much better textures. If you tried to do WoW style zone layering in GW2, you would end up with zoneline lag like in Vanguard. Basically its give and take, if you want a highly detailed world, you need to have zonelines. Vanguard tried to do away with zonelines and it ended up as a mess, walking over those chunk lines is far more immersion breaking than any loading screen I have ever seen.  

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,779Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Zorgo
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by kitarad
    When you fly in WoW that is a loading screen ? Have you even played WoW ? You can walk that distance and there is not one loading screen in between and that flight is over area and there is not I repeat IS NOT a loading screen unless it is between continents. The vessel between continents is the zeppelin and not the bat or griffin rides those are over area you can traverse by foot or horse/warg or whateevr mount. Come on Kalimdor and the other continent whose name escapes me where huge and much larger than one zone in GW 2. Please do not try to dissemble.

    While gryphon rides and so forth aren't exactly loading screens, they serve the same function as loading screens.  They force you on a particular route so that the game knows exactly what textures and models you will need loaded far ahead of time, and then can spend the route loading them and have all of the ones you need for the area when you land loaded when you get there.

    The individual continents are non-instanced; the gryphon rides used to be the only way around, and thus you would be under the constraints you listed, but they re-designed the world with Cataclysm and you can take your own personal mount, not on a flight path and fly from zone to zone, not using pre-set paths, but however you want to fly there.

    Not trying to detract from your statement; WoW is still heavily instanced, but the 'world' in large part, is not.

    In which case, you still have the large barren area between zones that also serves exactly the same function as loading screens:  an area where it isn't necessary to have much loaded that takes a while to pass through, in order to give your computer time to load the next zone.

    Choosing between that and actual loading screens is still a matter of pros and cons.  If you have to ride through a vast empty area to get where you're going, it takes however long it takes, and they'll try to make it take long enough that nearly everyone can load everything on time to avoid graphical artifacts.  If you've got a faster computer (i.e., if you have an SSD), then you still have to take as long to get to the next zone as someone on a badly fragmented 5400 RPM hard drive.  A loading screen would let you through a lot faster.

    On the other hand, if you change your mind and decide to double back, the seamless approach means you don't have to sit through two loading screens to do it.  And not having the loading screens does give a feel of the world being more connected, rather than a bunch of places that have nothing to do with each other.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,779Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Zorgo
    Originally posted by fiontar
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by kitarad
    When you fly in WoW that is a loading screen ? Have you even played WoW ? You can walk that distance and there is not one loading screen in between and that flight is over area and there is not I repeat IS NOT a loading screen unless it is between continents. The vessel between continents is the zeppelin and not the bat or griffin rides those are over area you can traverse by foot or horse/warg or whateevr mount. Come on Kalimdor and the other continent whose name escapes me where huge and much larger than one zone in GW 2. Please do not try to dissemble.

    While gryphon rides and so forth aren't exactly loading screens, they serve the same function as loading screens.  They force you on a particular route so that the game knows exactly what textures and models you will need loaded far ahead of time, and then can spend the route loading them and have all of the ones you need for the area when you land loaded when you get there.

    I agree with Quizzical. It might as well be a really, really long loading screen. I think some of the longest flightpaths were close to 15 minutes of flight! People complain about 10 second load screens, try maintaining your patience when you have an hour to play WoW and it takes 15 minutes to fly to the zone you intend to play in!

    Flight paths weren't there for immersion in WoW, they were there as time sinks.

    GW2 isn't a subscription game and thus has no need for time sinks.

    As stated earlier, this only applies to WoW pre-Cataclysm. You can fly anywhere you want with your own mount in Azeroth now. You are not set to the pinch points or the fly paths. 

    But can you fly there faster than a loading screen?  If you're no faster than a flight path, but just get to pick your own custom flight path, it still serves the same function as a loading screen.

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