Being a tank in every game that I play (single player too when I can...), this is simply a big fun killer for me. The holy trinity is nothing but efficient tactic.
I don't know, make the game not REQUIRE holy trinity, why not give it a try... But simply DENYING this aspect by not having aggro system at all is just wrong from my point of view.
Aggro systems are lazy hold overs from the past. The trinity doesn't require an aggro system, and IMO would be much more fun without it. Then again I am in favor of virtually any change that eliminates the DDR feel of group PvE.
"Doing it right" would be a ton more work. You'd need positional blocking, an AI with a threat vs proximity metric and release/retarget subroutine, plus a few other considerations (friendly fire for example). Sadly though, even if it were to be executed perfectly, the game would fail. That leap in complexity would alienate too many players that want (need is probably the better word) the static encounter to be "epic".
Steering wheels are lazy holdovers from the past on cars, but we've tried new things and keep finding our way back to them.
If it aint broke, don't fix it.
What you are saying is basically that we should stop trying new ideas if something already works because it has proven successful. If that was actually the case we would live in a pretty boring world. People are sick of the old style and it is the reason that both developers are trying new stuff and players are as well. Developers don't just make games that they think will make them money believe it or not. Developers like to play games too and are sick of the same things we are.
We have seen pretty much every MMO try something new since Rift and this is the kind of direction the MMO industry needs to continue to take in order for us to continue to enjoy them in the future.
Looks like they will be using a CC system for the tanking mechanic! dudes talking about using a Mortal Kombat Scropian Harpoon style pull in alpha version to bring mobs to you which has a stun at the end of it, and bash stun skill which doesnt require shields, all these things using fairly hefty stamina so if your trying to control the mobs position you cant do as much crazy sword weilding damage because your spending your stamina on the CC skills instead which sounds good to me!!
Crying 'fail' against GW2 is all well and fine - there are reasons I don't play it anymore.
But to say (with even the least credibility) that their dropping of the trinity is one of the reasons is entirely unsupportable.
This has been one of it's major successes - and I would think long and hard about going back to an aggro-trinity system - which frankly I found boring before... never mind now!
I will simply say I prefer the trinity, it provides different roles to assume and different tactics to learn. I didn't buy GW2 mainly for this reason, however I still respect the game and those who play it.
Crying 'fail' against GW2 is all well and fine - there are reasons I don't play it anymore.
But to say (with even the least credibility) that their dropping of the trinity is one of the reasons is entirely unsupportable.
This has been one of it's major successes - and I would think long and hard about going back to an aggro-trinity system - which frankly I found boring before... never mind now!
That is how i felt till i cleared dust from Vanguard and EQ2 and realised how much i missed playing tank and healer roles.
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.' -Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid." -Luke McKinney
I think the aggro could be redefined, i dont like the idea of a boss being all like "OMG i can hit all the squeshies but im going to single target this beautiful giant armored men with his 2 tons shields, even if the healer its scratching my balls with his staff!" i would like the idea of the boss going against the weakest, usually in most mmorpg you find a group in the following position:
1- Tank: infront of the boss getting healed
2- DPS Melee: Static around the boss getting healed
3- DPS Ranged: Static far away from the boss to avoid aoe damage
4- Casters, Damage: Read 3
5- Casters, Healers: Read 3
6- Casters, Invoker: Read 3
This goes on for like 1 hour sometimes... ive seen this happen in action mmorpg too
If tanks could "Pull" the monster instead of keep them on aggro it could be nice
Melee dps could trap them, hit the legs! make them fall! dont let the boss reach the healers casters and dps!
Casters could have more movement impediment skills that could affect more the pve side of the game than the pvp, come on! they are mages and priests, do walls of energy to protect your ally or block the boss feet by covering it with ice or something!
And the Ranged dps gets to use the traps to ultimately distract the boss, it could be so much better to me if the hole team would need to work as it was a real battle, more movement, more actions to do in a raid/boss/whatever
Im not saying you cant have fun today with the games we currently have... but its repetitive in most of them, adding some action and tactics to the battle should change for good the way we enjoy it, im not against the holy trinity, i like it, but it need a twist and if they decided to eliminate it instead of changing it then thats because they worked on something better, so i wont complain.
Sorry for my poor english lol im from argentina =P cheers boys TES IS HAVING AN MMORPG! lets expect the best from it.
I don't get mmorpg players, they say they want something different and when someone tries something different they complain that it's not the same as other mmo's.
I dont know what you guys do when your waiting for groups / tanks / healers etc, but when i ever was doing this I had a ton of fun cause thats when you find someone else waiting for a group make a great duo and go do some other content. I guess this less fun these days cause all the content outside of a dungeon is usually for solo play which sucks for a duo working like a well oiled machine. I hope they take a leaf out of EQ1's book and make most things almost too hard for a solo except in the starter zones. ( almost too hard with exception of the necro in eq1 of course)
Forced grouping is a non starter these days. Any game that used that would quickly find itself in a narrow niche. Look at what happened to Dungeons and Dragons online, at its launch. It would be even worse now.
Originally posted by Allymishka I dont know what you guys do when your waiting for groups / tanks / healers etc, but when i ever was doing this I had a ton of fun cause thats when you find someone else waiting for a group make a great duo and go do some other content. I guess this less fun these days cause all the content outside of a dungeon is usually for solo play which sucks for a duo working like a well oiled machine. I hope they take a leaf out of EQ1's book and make most things almost too hard for a solo except in the starter zones. ( almost too hard with exception of the necro in eq1 of course)
Games that force grouping (or make it impractical to solo) tend to end up niching themselves these days. Look at what happened to Dungeons and Dragons online, when it launched. I was there. There was very little to do, without having a group. Matters are even more so these days.
Originally posted by Istavaan I don't get mmorpg players, they say they want something different and when someone tries something different they complain that it's not the same as other mmo's.
Human nature. People (in general) want what is familiar. Some say that they want something different, but one only has to look at which games have been successful to understand the reality.
I suspect many of us are reaching the burn out point with WoW type games. But the mass market audience, hasn't reach that point yet. Until market demographics change, I suspect we will see more of the same.
Originally posted by Istavaan I don't get mmorpg players, they say they want something different and when someone tries something different they complain that it's not the same as other mmo's.
It's because they have such unreachable vision how a game should fit to their needs that It's totaly impossible to even make such a game.
Personally, I have always enjoyed the mechanics of the trinity. It seems like the most common gripe people have with the trinity is the fact that they have to wait for a tank or healer.
That's a prettly lame reason to throw out a system that has worked well for many years now. The trinity also provides accountability to all party members which is important these days (looking at you LFG tools).
People who argue that the trinity is old and no longer practical can look to GW2 for salvation but most would agree that the dungeon experience there was more chaotic than fun (can't speak to fractals though, haven't tried them).
The really nice thing these days is that we're beginning to see games that cater to each side of the argument. If you like the trinity you certainly have plenty of options and if you don't, there appears to be some light at the end of the tunnel.
Originally posted by Allymishka I dont know what you guys do when your waiting for groups / tanks / healers etc, but when i ever was doing this I had a ton of fun cause thats when you find someone else waiting for a group make a great duo and go do some other content. I guess this less fun these days cause all the content outside of a dungeon is usually for solo play which sucks for a duo working like a well oiled machine. I hope they take a leaf out of EQ1's book and make most things almost too hard for a solo except in the starter zones. ( almost too hard with exception of the necro in eq1 of course)
Games that force grouping (or make it impractical to solo) tend to end up niching themselves these days. Look at what happened to Dungeons and Dragons online, when it launched. I was there. There was very little to do, without having a group. Matters are even more so these days.
I totally get what your saying... but i guess my whinge is that isnt the solo content just too easy... i mean you can be any class and just stand there hit your primary attack a few times and they are dead. Make stuff soloable but some kind of difficulty increase would be entertaining as you go through the levels, Just increasing mobs hitpoints as you increase spell damage means each solo fight is almost identical. (a few boss mobs aside) I cant figure out how people can go through 50 levels of solo play whether its on a quest to collect 10 bananas or not lol
Comments
What you are saying is basically that we should stop trying new ideas if something already works because it has proven successful. If that was actually the case we would live in a pretty boring world. People are sick of the old style and it is the reason that both developers are trying new stuff and players are as well. Developers don't just make games that they think will make them money believe it or not. Developers like to play games too and are sick of the same things we are.
We have seen pretty much every MMO try something new since Rift and this is the kind of direction the MMO industry needs to continue to take in order for us to continue to enjoy them in the future.
Crying 'fail' against GW2 is all well and fine - there are reasons I don't play it anymore.
But to say (with even the least credibility) that their dropping of the trinity is one of the reasons is entirely unsupportable.
This has been one of it's major successes - and I would think long and hard about going back to an aggro-trinity system - which frankly I found boring before... never mind now!
I will simply say I prefer the trinity, it provides different roles to assume and different tactics to learn. I didn't buy GW2 mainly for this reason, however I still respect the game and those who play it.
Each to their own.
That is how i felt till i cleared dust from Vanguard and EQ2 and realised how much i missed playing tank and healer roles.
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney
I think the aggro could be redefined, i dont like the idea of a boss being all like "OMG i can hit all the squeshies but im going to single target this beautiful giant armored men with his 2 tons shields, even if the healer its scratching my balls with his staff!" i would like the idea of the boss going against the weakest, usually in most mmorpg you find a group in the following position:
1- Tank: infront of the boss getting healed
2- DPS Melee: Static around the boss getting healed
3- DPS Ranged: Static far away from the boss to avoid aoe damage
4- Casters, Damage: Read 3
5- Casters, Healers: Read 3
6- Casters, Invoker: Read 3
This goes on for like 1 hour sometimes... ive seen this happen in action mmorpg too
If tanks could "Pull" the monster instead of keep them on aggro it could be nice
Melee dps could trap them, hit the legs! make them fall! dont let the boss reach the healers casters and dps!
Casters could have more movement impediment skills that could affect more the pve side of the game than the pvp, come on! they are mages and priests, do walls of energy to protect your ally or block the boss feet by covering it with ice or something!
And the Ranged dps gets to use the traps to ultimately distract the boss, it could be so much better to me if the hole team would need to work as it was a real battle, more movement, more actions to do in a raid/boss/whatever
Im not saying you cant have fun today with the games we currently have... but its repetitive in most of them, adding some action and tactics to the battle should change for good the way we enjoy it, im not against the holy trinity, i like it, but it need a twist and if they decided to eliminate it instead of changing it then thats because they worked on something better, so i wont complain.
Sorry for my poor english lol im from argentina =P cheers boys TES IS HAVING AN MMORPG! lets expect the best from it.
Look! a penny!
Forced grouping is a non starter these days. Any game that used that would quickly find itself in a narrow niche. Look at what happened to Dungeons and Dragons online, at its launch. It would be even worse now.What I've been saying all along, good find, thanks.
There will be tanks, but you will tank through cc not spurious sword attacks that somehow magically make mobs more angry than other attacks
Games that force grouping (or make it impractical to solo) tend to end up niching themselves these days. Look at what happened to Dungeons and Dragons online, when it launched. I was there. There was very little to do, without having a group. Matters are even more so these days.
Human nature. People (in general) want what is familiar. Some say that they want something different, but one only has to look at which games have been successful to understand the reality.
I suspect many of us are reaching the burn out point with WoW type games. But the mass market audience, hasn't reach that point yet. Until market demographics change, I suspect we will see more of the same.
It's because they have such unreachable vision how a game should fit to their needs that It's totaly impossible to even make such a game.
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.
Personally, I have always enjoyed the mechanics of the trinity. It seems like the most common gripe people have with the trinity is the fact that they have to wait for a tank or healer.
That's a prettly lame reason to throw out a system that has worked well for many years now. The trinity also provides accountability to all party members which is important these days (looking at you LFG tools).
People who argue that the trinity is old and no longer practical can look to GW2 for salvation but most would agree that the dungeon experience there was more chaotic than fun (can't speak to fractals though, haven't tried them).
The really nice thing these days is that we're beginning to see games that cater to each side of the argument. If you like the trinity you certainly have plenty of options and if you don't, there appears to be some light at the end of the tunnel.
I totally get what your saying... but i guess my whinge is that isnt the solo content just too easy... i mean you can be any class and just stand there hit your primary attack a few times and they are dead. Make stuff soloable but some kind of difficulty increase would be entertaining as you go through the levels, Just increasing mobs hitpoints as you increase spell damage means each solo fight is almost identical. (a few boss mobs aside) I cant figure out how people can go through 50 levels of solo play whether its on a quest to collect 10 bananas or not lol