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Let me get this out there.
I'm pretty sure I'm the only one on these boards that hopes for the equivalent of a "Dinosaur Killing Meteor" to hit the MMORPG genre. IMO, it's still stuffering from the illness of developers constantly trying (and failing) to chase WoW's success. Modern, traditional MMORPGs in general are still being compared to how close they are with WoW. This is most especially so with big-name releases. I still think developers are funelling into the same path of development. Very few dare to be different, and if they are they will not get the big bucks to go on.
SWTOR, by far and easily the biggest MMORPG title in quite a number of years, is about as blatantly uninsipired in MMORPG game design as you can get, despite the fantastic "Star Wars" license and the insane amount of money thrown towards development. It is the shiniest, easiest example of uninspired design. You had BioWare... BioWare, of all development houses, openly saying that to defy WoW's design is stupidity. If there was a title that in alot of years could have really been something, it was SWTOR. It had "Star Wars." It had BioWare, the dev house behind KOTOR1. It had BioWare's reputation to potentially do what they want, because it was BioWare. It had a healthy amount of time and insane money for development. And the end result is what is out there now...
You have a disastrous example of an MMORPG that, IMO, truly had a chance to shake the foundations of the MMORPG genre and realign the power structure. And it proudly settled on being mediocre and uninspired in its design. And it wasn't the first to do so and it will not be the last. And it's been going on since about 2004-2005.
A fine justification for that nice Meteor to hit. Maybe there'll be better diversity afterwards for whatever comes out of the ashes.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
I'm not a sports fan, but I think I can draw a parallel.
Being an MMO fan is not unlike being a sports fan. There are teams you like and teams you don't. When a team you don't like loses to a team that you do like, there's a sense of satisfaction.
Although applied to MMOs it sounds kind of twisted.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
Originally posted by Scottgun Because it is justice when garbage gets hauled to the trash heap. We ought to be pleased/enjoy/happy when justice is done.
I see this arguement a lot but never do they go in depth to why said games were garbage.
Again - people who are saying 'it is because they don't know how to write a game' or 'is following WoW' or any of the other of the 'multitude of hater platitudes' really need to understand how games are designed, developed, coded, etc. It they actually understood it, they might be able to understand it is easy to be a critic, hard to be an expert. And don't say I went to college for game programming either,college education is one part, real world experience is the other.
The honest thing is, these game companies are made of fans, just like us. BUT, they have to work in the real world where money talks. If a game makes no money, it dies. Sandbox games have a very small market draw, there I said it. If you think not, then why aren't there more sandbox games out there? Companies need to continually draw new people into the market, if they don't then the market can only support so many games. It will eventually peak, but right now, it is not.
"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum
Originally posted by botrytis Originally posted by Kyleran It's nothing personal. Simple fact is I want new MMORPG's to be built that incorporate some of the features and designs that I prefer, and currently the main focus of most titles is decidedly different from that. Way I see it, the only way I'll ever have a chance of seeing a bit more variation in the feature sets of new games is for the current crop being delivered to fail, and fail miserably. Yeah, I know my view is selfish, I'm just like that what can I say. Unfortunately game design more or less follows the herd in terms of design so I need to see the herd run right off the cliff in order for there to be a chance of something more to my liking being delivered. Good news for most other folks is that my campaign so far has only been partially successful. Plenty of titles keep crashing against the rocks, but developers keep sending us the same thing again and again. (with some subtle variations I'll grant) Or maybe like that other guy said, I'm just a douche.
The problem is - it is personal - when you are selfish it is personal.
People think they know what goes into game design but they really don't because they haven't done it. Just because what they want in a game doesn't mean it is possible. I said this before, all games, cars, etc anything designed is a compromise. We have has no-compromise cars, take the Bugatti Veryon, at 1.5 million dollars a car - it is a statement but that is it. Same can be said with games. One could make a no-compromise game but would people be able to afford the price of it? Probably not. To make things the costs more realistic, they have to compromise. Unfortunately, people with opinions do not have to compromise - they assume everything they want can be done, even if the actual game developer says it can't. An example of this was a recent thread here, about GW2, where people kept saying they want open world PvP and there were actual quotes, from A.Net developers, saying that Open world PvP cannot be put in the game because the game wasn't designed for it.
What I want in modern MMO's was delivered successfully by titles such as UO, DAOC and AC over 10 years ago.
I'm not looking for them to re-invent the wheel, but rather revisit some of the mechanics and designs from the past that have been tossed aside over the years.
In a nutshell - Think DAOC 2.0 without the WOWification that WAR underwent.
"Winning" at EVE Online since May, 2007!
In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™ "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
This theory has been proposed before, but welcome to the Internet, already in progress.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Because I'm a narcissistic, evil, vindictive bastard.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.-- Herman Melville
Originally posted by Orthus.Aku Originally posted by Scottgun Because it is justice when garbage gets hauled to the trash heap. We ought to be pleased/enjoy/happy when justice is done.
I'm answering a question that has alot of question begging in it as well as ad hominem. So, it's a somewhat of a pert answer.
Originally posted by Psychow Because they know a guy, who dated a girl who was best friends of a blogger that said the game was bad and we should all be happy that it failed.
Is there a fat German word for "arrested adolescent still pining for how cool games felt during his misspent youth"?
If not, I'll go ahead and run for the office.
Pretty sure my sig has the answer.
It is something marketers / PR guys have known / used for years.
Gdemami -Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Originally posted by jpnz Pretty sure my sig has the answer. It is something marketers / PR guys have known / used for years.
Originally posted by TheScavengerIt doesn't make sense. And it is a growing problem...or the problem is just more noticeable with more people playing MMOs. The person may not like said MMO. But, there are developers that have to get paid and they probably (hopefully) even enjoy what they do. Working on an MMO for years, only to get "everyone" cheering that it the game is dead (population wise) or having to be closed down. Not seeming to care at all that there are still people that actually enjoyed that MMO. You don't see me going around cheering Star Wars Galaxies (SWG) died, just because I didn't like it. If I did, I would be flamed to death...but it is no different than someone cheering about another MMO that died. Is there a reason people seem to find gratification about seeing an MMO closed, even though it had the players that actually ENJOYED that MMO? Is there a reason people cheer that a MMO died? It makes no sense. When it was developed for years, enjoyed by at least some? That is like going to an art gallery and saying "yup I can do better, that painting sucks"...well...you most likely didn't do better, because you don't have any painting in an art gallery. (incoming real world artist :P) Analogies aside...since really it was just a rather sideways example. More MMOs are better for everyone. But it isn't just MMOs that run into this...people find enjoyment in other games doing bad too or failing to meet expectations. But again going back to SWG...it was my least favorite MMO I played. I tried at release and a few times after. And I don't go around cheering and saying "good riddance, less filth in the MMO genre". Because I know there was people that actually liked it. I would be banned for trolling in most forums if I did that to SWG, but that doesn't happen with other MMOs people cheer for that are dead in population or closed down. So again...why do "some" people find enjoyment in a MMO being closed or doing badly?
Originally posted by Scottgun Originally posted by jpnz Pretty sure my sig has the answer. It is something marketers / PR guys have known / used for years.
Might as well get handy labels for all of the troll varieties that article missed entirely:
Originally posted by Icewhite Originally posted by Scottgun Originally posted by jpnz Pretty sure my sig has the answer. It is something marketers / PR guys have known / used for years.
Isn't a Flame Warrior a genus, and a troll a species?
Originally posted by Scottgun Isn't a Flame Warrior a genus, and a troll a species?
Well, no; technically all forumites qualify as flame warriors of some variety.
And as we've seen, "troll" has been reduced, over time, to "anyone who disagrees with meh".
But the old Flame Warriors definitions, from the dawn of Usenet, get some extra Street Cred for predating bloggers (and indeed most of the internet) entirely.
Originally posted by Icewhite Originally posted by Scottgun Isn't a Flame Warrior a genus, and a troll a species?
icewhite .. nice pic..looks like you got some serious skillz in sucking lollies
If the current trend of MMO failures continues (that would be MMO"s that fail to meet their publishers expectations or decline rapidly in popularity/subscriptions), you could possibly see any one of the following happen:
1. Game companies will simply stop producing MMO's because they aren't lucrative. This might actually happen because AAA MMO's are so expensive to make. A publisher isn't going to want to take the risk of loss in a difficult market.
2. Game companies will produce better quality games in an effort to win customers (probably not going to happen).
3. MMO's will trend towards free to play browser based MMO's with required cash shop purchases to advance beyond a certain point (the most likely scenerio).
One thing to consider, is that people honestly wanted the game to succeed pre-launch. They watch the forums, dev-blogs and announcements for details of the game and most importantly to add input as to the features needed, or to be excluded, for the game to be successful. This was the case for SWTOR. I and many others regularly cruised the forums, played the beta(s) and listened to the devs to understand "their vision". Many of those same people told the devs via the forums how many aspects were poorly done, should be left out, or missing entirely. I won't go through the list of the deficiencies here, as that is not the point of the thread.
Per the norm, the devs did not listen. As has been the case in many recently released games, the devs always believe "they know better". SWTOR was plagued by this, as was the Warhammer game. For the players who spent many hours on the forums, trying to change the game for what they percieve as the better, the threads you speak of are their collective cries of "I told you so!!". In an effort to show their outrage for being ignored, many of them visit boards like this to decry the game and to wish it's ultimate downfall.