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Will most player even notice if the virtual world is taken away from MMO pve gameplay?

nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

Take WOW as an example. What are the pve gameplay? Solo-quest, 5-man instanced dungeons and raids. In between dungeons, players waited in a city.

So what if there is no virtual world? Just a city lobby. Will they even notice the difference?

You may say .. what about meeting other players when you solo quest? Well, that also don't need a persistent virtual world. You can use an instanced and match random players into it. You will never be seeing 10000 others outside of a city anyway. In fact, most questing players won't want 10000 others to share their quest mobs.

In DDO, most of the gameplay is in the dungeons. There isn't much of even the open world solo-questing like in WOW.

LOTRO is similar to WOW.

In STO, most mission/pve content is in instanced. I do see lots of other players (space ships) in sector space. However, i doubt i would even notice if the sector space is not persistent, or if some of the space ships are NPCs (in fact, some of them are).

In fact, didn't GW1 tried this idea and was very successful. 

 

 

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Comments

  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper LondonPosts: 2,751Member
    Yes they will. Next!

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • GrixxittGrixxitt New Orleans, LAPosts: 543Member
    Narius, I'm starting to think you get paid by a MOBA collective to do your best in making sure that future MMORPGs are absolute shit

    The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)

    -The MMO Forum Community

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Redlands, CAPosts: 3,675Member
    There has never been a virtual world, MMOs are a game.  Next!

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
    Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
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  • AeonbladesAeonblades Home, GAPosts: 2,083Member
    Originally posted by Grixxitt
    Narius, I'm starting to think you get paid by a MOBA collective to do your best in making sure that future MMORPGs are absolute shit

    Made me giggle. Yea this is not a good idea, most players would notice.

    Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
    Have played: You name it
    If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Grixxitt
    Narius, I'm starting to think you get paid by a MOBA collective to do your best in making sure that future MMORPGs are absolute shit

    MOBA? I don't even play MOBA.

    And i also don't make MMOs .. i just play them.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper
    Yes they will. Next!

    How? When? Certainly not when they are in a city waiting for a dungeon to pop, or in that dungeon doing a 5-man run.

  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,906Member Uncommon

    Yeah, they would notice.  Just look at all the threads of people complaining about empty overland zones indicating that a game is dead.

     

    It's a paradox.  They might not want to play with others, but they like having them around.

     


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now turned Amateur Game Developer.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  Realm Lords 2 on MMORPG.com
  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,452Member Uncommon

    I think the point is being missed regarding "seing thousands of players".

    Of course people aren't going to want to log in only to find 5000 players standing around him and his framerate dropping to 0.

    The idea is that one can have access to any of the numerous thousands of players and have some sort of encounter or adventure because of it.

    This happened to me all the time in Lineage 2. not very much in most other games... perhaps Aion it did.

    Have you ever crested a hill to take a boss only to find your enemy with a larger army around that very same boss?

    Have you ever been besieged by several mobs only to find a higher level, helpful stranger lend aid?

    Have you ever been leveling in a group, only to be attacked by a rival of one of your party members?

    or on your way through a dungeon only to see a group of people who desperately need help with the mobs? You help them then finish your business there and then someone suggests "hey let's go to that island in the north" and you then start a whole new experience there.

    Or meet some new player who had no idea what the game is about so you take him/her under your wing, get him equipment, money and then give them a tour of the world.

    All that an more can happen when one has a world to wander around in.

    In GW1 (a great game) that didn't really happen to me. I would enter a hub and people would be grouping up for that hub. That's about it. DDO? never got that game as it seemed to be people grouping so they can blaze through a dungeon as fast as they could only to do the same again, or with another dungeon.

    I'll take my virtual world.

  • AeonbladesAeonblades Home, GAPosts: 2,083Member
    Originally posted by XAPGames

    Yeah, they would notice.  Just look at all the threads of people complaining about empty overland zones indicating that a game is dead.

     

    It's a paradox.  They might not want to play with others, but they like having them around.

     

    This. If the world seems empty, it doesn't seem like a world anymore to most.

    Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
    Have played: You name it
    If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.

  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,906Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Aeonblades
    Originally posted by XAPGames

    Yeah, they would notice.  Just look at all the threads of people complaining about empty overland zones indicating that a game is dead.

     

    It's a paradox.  They might not want to play with others, but they like having them around.

     

    This. If the world seems empty, it doesn't seem like a world anymore to most.

     

    No disagreement from me.

     


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now turned Amateur Game Developer.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  Realm Lords 2 on MMORPG.com
  • NorseGodNorseGod Behind Enemy Lines, FLPosts: 856Member

    If already stated that I see this all headed that way, OP. Just think when some guy in a suit realizes that there is no need to spend money on a world when everyone is in a lobby city waiting to accept a LFD invite, which teleports you there and back. Then when you cap, you do the same for PvP in these little rooms called arenas.

    It will happen.

    Censorship is intended to create an illusion that one side of the debate is correct and unopposed. Silence is not consent.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Aeonblades
    Originally posted by XAPGames

    Yeah, they would notice.  Just look at all the threads of people complaining about empty overland zones indicating that a game is dead.

     

    It's a paradox.  They might not want to play with others, but they like having them around.

     

    This. If the world seems empty, it doesn't seem like a world anymore to most.

    You don't need a world for this. You just need a city like Orgrimmar.

    In fact, the world *is* empty. They may as well take it away.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Sovrath

    I think the point is being missed regarding "seing thousands of players".

    Of course people aren't going to want to log in only to find 5000 players standing around him and his framerate dropping to 0.

    The idea is that one can have access to any of the numerous thousands of players and have some sort of encounter or adventure because of it.

    This happened to me all the time in Lineage 2. not very much in most other games... perhaps Aion it did.

    Have you ever crested a hill to take a boss only to find your enemy with a larger army around that very same boss?

    Have you ever been besieged by several mobs only to find a higher level, helpful stranger lend aid?

    Have you ever been leveling in a group, only to be attacked by a rival of one of your party members?

    or on your way through a dungeon only to see a group of people who desperately need help with the mobs? You help them then finish your business there and then someone suggests "hey let's go to that island in the north" and you then start a whole new experience there.

    Or meet some new player who had no idea what the game is about so you take him/her under your wing, get him equipment, money and then give them a tour of the world.

    All that an more can happen when one has a world to wander around in.

    In GW1 (a great game) that didn't really happen to me. I would enter a hub and people would be grouping up for that hub. That's about it. DDO? never got that game as it seemed to be people grouping so they can blaze through a dungeon as fast as they could only to do the same again, or with another dungeon.

    I'll take my virtual world.

    These never happen in WOW, DDO, GW1, and many other instanced centric PvE MMOs.

    The point of this thread is not what should be the MMO design, but in these specific MMOs, why do we need a world if the experience is the same?

    The stuff you talk about .. .like meeting another group in a dungeon .. is just not the gameplay in these MMO i am discussing. So irrelevant.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by NorseGod

    If already stated that I see this all headed that way, OP. Just think when some guy in a suit realizes that there is no need to spend money on a world when everyone is in a lobby city waiting to accept a LFD invite, which teleports you there and back. Then when you cap, you do the same for PvP in these little rooms called arenas.

    It will happen.

    But yet .. many of these games are designed with a non-functionality irrelevant virtual world. TOR is the best example. With all the story instanced, the world matters very little.

    In fact, it would be a MUCH better game if it is just an online MP RPG.

  • kaliniskalinis Dexter, MEPosts: 1,428Member

    with all the stuff added in pandaria u don't have to wait in a city for a dungeon to pop, U can run a scenario while waiting for dungeon to pop. Do your farming or dailies which there are alot of, Waiting in a city for a dungeon to pop when u can be out and about in the world is a choice not a neccesity in wow. 

    I for one never waited in cities for dungeons or raids to pop, Id go fish or explore or do some mat farming , Sure u don't have to go out in the world if u dont want to but to me thats  a waste. 

  • AeonbladesAeonblades Home, GAPosts: 2,083Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by NorseGod

    If already stated that I see this all headed that way, OP. Just think when some guy in a suit realizes that there is no need to spend money on a world when everyone is in a lobby city waiting to accept a LFD invite, which teleports you there and back. Then when you cap, you do the same for PvP in these little rooms called arenas.

    It will happen.

    But yet .. many of these games are designed with a non-functionality irrelevant virtual world. TOR is the best example. With all the story instanced, the world matters very little.

    In fact, it would be a MUCH better game if it is just an online MP RPG.

    I agree with what you said here, TOR would have been much better off with D2 style lobby for dungeons/raids/story quests. If not just because the station lags so badly.

    Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
    Have played: You name it
    If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.

  • ignore_meignore_me Apple Valley, CAPosts: 1,987Member
    This is a disturbing trend of thought in MMOs. Strip it down, give the programmers what they want, make it casual and solo friendly to the exclusion of the deep mmo players. There is already a place like that, it's called SPRPGs.

    Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by kalinis

    with all the stuff added in pandaria u don't have to wait in a city for a dungeon to pop, U can run a scenario while waiting for dungeon to pop. Do your farming or dailies which there are alot of, Waiting in a city for a dungeon to pop when u can be out and about in the world is a choice not a neccesity in wow. 

    I for one never waited in cities for dungeons or raids to pop, Id go fish or explore or do some mat farming , Sure u don't have to go out in the world if u dont want to but to me thats  a waste. 

    Sure. I see the changes in pandaria a way to make a bit more use of the world. However,

    1) Scenarios are instanced right? So if you run a scenario, if you are not usign the persistent world.

    2) farming and daillies are certainly use of the open world quest zone. But those are solo-activities. Does it matter if it happens in an instanced with the occasional random player pop in? Probably not a whole lot. In fact, if you farm (say mining), you would like to stay away from others (isn't mine node stealing frustrating?) .. .so do you think players will prefer an instanced zone where they have all the mine nodes to themselves?

    3)  fishing is also solo. Does it make a difference if you jsut finish in a nice instanced? But disregarding of how YOU play, don't you agree a lot of players are waiting in a city? When i played wow, i saw lots of that.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by ignore_me
    This is a disturbing trend of thought in MMOs. Strip it down, give the programmers what they want, make it casual and solo friendly to the exclusion of the deep mmo players. There is already a place like that, it's called SPRPGs.

    I don't see why "deep" MMO is better than a "deep" SP game. It is just a matter of preference. And what is wrong with devs chasing the market? It is called "making your customers happy".

  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,906Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Aeonblades
    Originally posted by XAPGames

    Yeah, they would notice.  Just look at all the threads of people complaining about empty overland zones indicating that a game is dead.

     

    It's a paradox.  They might not want to play with others, but they like having them around.

     

    This. If the world seems empty, it doesn't seem like a world anymore to most.

    You don't need a world for this. You just need a city like Orgrimmar.

    In fact, the world *is* empty. They may as well take it away.

     

    ... or fix it.  But obviously the games aren't MMORPGs anymore or they wouldn't have empty overlands in the first place.  So in an odd way I agree with you.  Trash the massively multiplayer aspects completely, and rename the games for what they have become.

     

    Large scale single player games with multi-user lobbies and embedded cooperative or competitive mini-games.

     

    MMORPGs are becoming Guild Wars 1.

     

    But I like MMORPGs.  I just hope that someday a dev will come along and make a new one.

     


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now turned Amateur Game Developer.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  Realm Lords 2 on MMORPG.com
  • YamotaYamota LondonPosts: 6,620Member
    Hate to break it to you but the virtual world has been taken out of most MMO's for years...
  • RefMinorRefMinor MyTownPosts: 3,452Member
    Originally posted by Grixxitt
    Narius, I'm starting to think you get paid by a MOBA collective to do your best in making sure that future MMORPGs are absolute shit

    I bet they sponsor him based on posts per day on the subject.

  • A.BlacklochA.Blackloch NexusPosts: 831Member
    Instances, lobbies, teleports etc. That's everything I hate in games that take away the social aspect and kills the community.

    image image image

  • ignore_meignore_me Apple Valley, CAPosts: 1,987Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by ignore_me
    This is a disturbing trend of thought in MMOs. Strip it down, give the programmers what they want, make it casual and solo friendly to the exclusion of the deep mmo players. There is already a place like that, it's called SPRPGs.

    I don't see why "deep" MMO is better than a "deep" SP game. It is just a matter of preference. And what is wrong with devs chasing the market? It is called "making your customers happy".

    Development: I'm talking about devs following the path of least resistance and also cloning other games in design meetings. Making choices based on customers is not the same as attempting to put something out that is crap, hype it as good, and then not fix it when it is objectively crap.

    Deep MMOs are an experience in themselves, and when the experience is dumbed down, you lose the value of that experience for those who want it. The games become a crude simulacrum of the complexity and depth of older games. I like some of the quality of life features in contemporary games, but there is such a thing as too much. People who like the basic MMO play can usually get that even in deeper MMOs, but people who like having to manage a lot of information and have options of play are stifled by stripped-down games. 

    When you like Risk and are forced to play Checkers because "everyone likes checkers" or "Risk is too difficult to balance" etc. It has a tendency to make one unsatisfied.

    Luckily there are signs that the cycle is reversing and deeper games are on the horizon.

    Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

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