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New Free to play changes to VG.

2

Comments

  • TsaboHavocTsaboHavoc PinheiralPosts: 351Member
    Originally posted by Benedikt

    Originally posted by TsaboHavoc

    Originally posted by Torgir

    Originally posted by Benedikt

    torgir, tsabohavoc:

    *.... must .... keep .... it .... must .... not ....comment ....on their .... posts*

    sorry folks I am not able to keep away from commenting, so here it is: thank you that you dont like the f2p changes. i really dont want to meat people like you in the game.



    you got almost everything possible for free and you are bitching that it is not enough? give me a break

     

    I'm discussing this f2p model in light of competition in the market which is what I consider proper for the topic. These things do tend to get pretty personal fast and no, I'm not.

     


    im not complaining of f2p restrictions (also i dislike any like "f2P" model), what i dislike is hipocrisy and greed.

     

    i never understood this attitude:

    how can someone ever bitch that "what he got FOR FREE" is not enough? are you living in some mysterious unknown haven where you are used to get everything for free? me, when i get something for free, i am grateful for that, not saying "i want more, this is not enough!". when i want to play a game, i understand that have to PAY for it, if i can play it (with limitations) without paying, its just a bonus.

    sorry about the rant, but i am getting really sick of the ungrateful f2p players

     


    what im saying is: this f2p model makes the game suffer cause instead of growing in a natural and organic way to please the players and keep them subscribed, the game are being changed to fast milk money from players in a nom-imersive way (u cant use this, u cant go there gimme ur money first). why do this instead of a b2p model or an all unlocked game in a p2p model with more ppl working? what about the ppl that supported the game all these years and cant even use the characters cause their gear was taken away from them to enforce a greedy "f2P" mechanic?
  • TorgirTorgir -Posts: 27Member
    Originally posted by Ramonski7

    Originally posted by Aeonblades

    Originally posted by Mardukk

    Originally posted by Aeonblades

    Sorry Vanguard, I had high hopes from the beginning, but years of neglect can't be made up for by a very badly done B2P model. When are you people gonna realize that no one can play the game with the stupid limitations you set? It's like how on EQ I tried the F2P version, you can't even get enough money to buy gear because of coin limitations.

    Crap like that has no place if you want F2P to work.

     

    You can level up (through countless amounts of content) which can take quite some time and not run into an item you need to unlock, in EQ. I really wonder about people and what they claim is unplayable...

    So SOE lifts some restrictions and people act like they added more...lol.

     

    You missed the point entirely. When I log onto Vanguard, which I paid full price for, and I can't play any of my old characters because of gear restrictions, who does that punish? The greedy turd or the loyal customer who bought it and played for almost a year. I gave them more money than they are going to make on 90% of these F2P players, so what is my incentive to play if I can't play my characters because they are all half naked? Gear restrictions are silly. Coin limitations are silly (in pretty much every SoE title) It's just bad business.

     

    This is pretty much my feeling as well. Why offer a F2P version of your game if you're going to force former players into a pay to win situation? It's the same reason I stop playing EQ2. If you're going to try to entice new players to join SOE Needs to take a page out of Lineage 2, Terra, Aion and TSW's book. Don't strip your game down to appeal to free players, build it up to appeal to paying ones.

     

    I agree with this partially. I mean, if there was no f2p, you'd have to pay $15 to even get to the character selection screen. You still get the same product for that $15. On the other hand though, the market has changed. You have to give more than before to stay alive. It's not our fault as customers. It's the sellers that have changed the rules by trying to get an edge in competition. Hell yes I'll get what I can for less and let the companies worry about their account balance.
    Yes, those limitations you mention are a bad design, also with spell ranks in EQ/EQ2. They just make you not want to play. What I've been saying here.
  • ScorchienScorchien Hatboro, PAPosts: 1,341Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Aeonblades

    Originally posted by Mardukk

    Originally posted by Aeonblades

    Sorry Vanguard, I had high hopes from the beginning, but years of neglect can't be made up for by a very badly done B2P model. When are you people gonna realize that no one can play the game with the stupid limitations you set? It's like how on EQ I tried the F2P version, you can't even get enough money to buy gear because of coin limitations.

    Crap like that has no place if you want F2P to work.

     

    You can level up (through countless amounts of content) which can take quite some time and not run into an item you need to unlock, in EQ. I really wonder about people and what they claim is unplayable...

    So SOE lifts some restrictions and people act like they added more...lol.

     

    You missed the point entirely. When I log onto Vanguard, which I paid full price for, and I can't play any of my old characters because of gear restrictions, who does that punish? The greedy turd or the loyal customer who bought it and played for almost a year. I gave them more money than they are going to make on 90% of these F2P players, so what is my incentive to play if I can't play my characters because they are all half naked? Gear restrictions are silly. Coin limitations are silly (in pretty much every SoE title) It's just bad business.

     



    There is no punishment on that , the exisiting gear you are wearing his allowed wethr its blue , yellow , orange .. I wouldnt take it off, as it will Member lock ... And you can buy x5 gear unlocks for very cheap , which is great for F2P players , they removed most of the resrictions and it really is a great F2P model such a great game...
  • strangiato2112strangiato2112 Richmond, VAPosts: 1,538Member Common
    There are basically three options of f2p conversion models we have seen:

    1. Intend people to actually play as f2p but still get money off them. This is the nickel and dime method. Turbine is the prime example of this. The nickel and diming also affects the subbed members as basic mmo features such as shared bank storage and exp locks arent given to subbers, but must be purchased.

    2. F2P intended as an extended trial, intent is to get people to sub. This is the SoE model, and regardless of what some of this site's posters think it has worked for them with EQ2. Yes, the people that care what others are wearing wont like it, but those that just enjoy playing through content without worrying if they are overpowered for it should enjoy it. SWTOR is how not to do this method.

    3. Cash shop only, no sub. relies on extreme volume (GW2), funding from another player base (L2, Aion), or content purchases (TSW)
  • strangiato2112strangiato2112 Richmond, VAPosts: 1,538Member Common
    Originally posted by Torgir
    They just make you not want to play. What I've been saying here.

    They make YOU not want to play, not me.
    The system isn't designed for people like you. Get over it and move on. If you enjoy the game enough to get to the point where gear matters and you don't sub (or buy the unlockers, they arent expensive) you are a cheap, greedy person anyway.
  • TalonsinTalonsin Posts: 1,469Member Uncommon
    I think this is a very positive move for the game. Glad the F2P option has become more attractive.
  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,917Member Uncommon

    Interesting news.  I felt that the F2P offering was a bit restrictive when announced.  This opens that up quite a bit.

     


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now turned Amateur Game Developer.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  Realm Lords 2 on MMORPG.com
  • BenediktBenedikt PraguePosts: 1,406Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by TsaboHavoc
     why do this instead of a b2p model or an all unlocked game in a p2p model with more ppl working? what about the ppl that supported the game all these years and cant even use the characters cause their gear was taken away from them to enforce a greedy "f2P" mechanic?

    huh, what are you talking about? there is still a p2p model with everything unlocked. as for "ppl that supported the game all these years" - they can still play the same they did before, they just got 2. option - to play for free with limitations (not to mention that as far as i know, ppl who had items before p2p still either had them unlocked or they got them unlocked when they asked for it, because not unlocking was a bug afaik (but i play p2p, so didnt pay too much attention to that))

  • AeonbladesAeonblades Home, GAPosts: 2,083Member
    Originally posted by Scorchien

     There is no punishment on that , the exisiting gear you are wearing his allowed wethr its blue , yellow , orange .. I wouldnt take it off, as it will Member lock ... And you can buy x5 gear unlocks for very cheap , which is great for F2P players , they removed most of the resrictions and it really is a great F2P model such a great game...

    Then why, when it first went F2P, I logged in, and yes, the gear was equipped, but I received no stats from it and the character appeared naked? I guess it's kind of a moot point because there I have already dropped over $200 dollars into this sinking ship since release in subscription fees and they never even fixed most of the basic problems. That's probably the root of the problem for me. Why should I spend more money when I didn't already get my money's worth?

    If you are going to F2P do it right, if the product is not worth it don't expect people to invest money into their precious gear unlocks.

    Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
    Have played: You name it
    If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.

  • DirkinDirkin Manassas, VAPosts: 78Member
    Originally posted by Aeonblades
    Originally posted by Scorchien

     There is no punishment on that , the exisiting gear you are wearing his allowed wethr its blue , yellow , orange .. I wouldnt take it off, as it will Member lock ... And you can buy x5 gear unlocks for very cheap , which is great for F2P players , they removed most of the resrictions and it really is a great F2P model such a great game...

    Then why, when it first went F2P, I logged in, and yes, the gear was equipped, but I received no stats from it and the character appeared naked? I guess it's kind of a moot point because there I have already dropped over $200 dollars into this sinking ship since release in subscription fees and they never even fixed most of the basic problems. That's probably the root of the problem for me. Why should I spend more money when I didn't already get my money's worth?

    If you are going to F2P do it right, if the product is not worth it don't expect people to invest money into their precious gear unlocks.

     

    If you have any inclination to log in again, just petition and let a GM know this happened. You'll get all that gear unlocked for free. Any gear you had prior to f2p status is supposed to be permanently unlocked for you automatically. I believe it's working fine now, but if you did this back near when f2p launched I think think they had a few issues with it.

     

    I'm not entirely sure how people can see teh item restriction as it is now as sufficient to make them not even play. I mean, yeah you don't get everything for free, but restricted to blue items is not game-breakingly bad. I doubt anyone levelling up will even see a yellow+ item until around close to 30, except maybe a few player crafted pieces. Even then, gear unlockers cost 50 cents. It seems fairly reasonable to me.

     

    Obviously I am a VG fan, and I have been subbed to it since launch, but I like to think I stay pretty objective about this kind of stuff. When they first came out with the original f2p restrictions, it was way too bad. With all these changes, I think it's pretty decent.

  • ScorchienScorchien Hatboro, PAPosts: 1,341Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Dirkin
    Originally posted by Aeonblades
    Originally posted by Scorchien

     There is no punishment on that , the exisiting gear you are wearing his allowed wethr its blue , yellow , orange .. I wouldnt take it off, as it will Member lock ... And you can buy x5 gear unlocks for very cheap , which is great for F2P players , they removed most of the resrictions and it really is a great F2P model such a great game...

    Then why, when it first went F2P, I logged in, and yes, the gear was equipped, but I received no stats from it and the character appeared naked? I guess it's kind of a moot point because there I have already dropped over $200 dollars into this sinking ship since release in subscription fees and they never even fixed most of the basic problems. That's probably the root of the problem for me. Why should I spend more money when I didn't already get my money's worth?

    If you are going to F2P do it right, if the product is not worth it don't expect people to invest money into their precious gear unlocks.

     

    If you have any inclination to log in again, just petition and let a GM know this happened. You'll get all that gear unlocked for free. Any gear you had prior to f2p status is supposed to be permanently unlocked for you automatically. I believe it's working fine now, but if you did this back near when f2p launched I think think they had a few issues with it.

     

    I'm not entirely sure how people can see teh item restriction as it is now as sufficient to make them not even play. I mean, yeah you don't get everything for free, but restricted to blue items is not game-breakingly bad. I doubt anyone levelling up will even see a yellow+ item until around close to 30, except maybe a few player crafted pieces. Even then, gear unlockers cost 50 cents. It seems fairly reasonable to me.

     

    Obviously I am a VG fan, and I have been subbed to it since launch, but I like to think I stay pretty objective about this kind of stuff. When they first came out with the original f2p restrictions, it was way too bad. With all these changes, I think it's pretty decent.

     Yea it worked fine for me , for all my characters ... NP at all..

     

       This really is a great F2P model , people need to take the time to see what is avaible for free , its an impressive list and what is available for SC .. For ex.. any/race combo and all content is open to you ... Nice huh ... Now as F2P and you get to Skirleen POint and start the The HUnters League Line you will get 3 blues and 4 Yellow (locked) items .. You can purchase a x5 item unlock for i think 2.00$ and you are set in gear for 10 lvls and still have1 item unlock to boot .. You can put up a house form extra storage now... It really is a great deal and almost makes want to unsub lmao ...

     

      In addition there are plemty of good Guilds recruiting F2P and returning playesr and will help with harvest runs to get a house up in a couple days in many cases ..

  • MardukkMardukk Posts: 1,556Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Aeonblades
    Originally posted by Mardukk
    Originally posted by Aeonblades
    Sorry Vanguard, I had high hopes from the beginning, but years of neglect can't be made up for by a very badly done B2P model. When are you people gonna realize that no one can play the game with the stupid limitations you set? It's like how on EQ I tried the F2P version, you can't even get enough money to buy gear because of coin limitations. Crap like that has no place if you want F2P to work.

     

    You can level up (through countless amounts of content) which can take quite some time and not run into an item you need to unlock, in EQ. I really wonder about people and what they claim is unplayable... So SOE lifts some restrictions and people act like they added more...lol.

     

    You missed the point entirely. When I log onto Vanguard, which I paid full price for, and I can't play any of my old characters because of gear restrictions, who does that punish? The greedy turd or the loyal customer who bought it and played for almost a year. I gave them more money than they are going to make on 90% of these F2P players, so what is my incentive to play if I can't play my characters because they are all half naked? Gear restrictions are silly. Coin limitations are silly (in pretty much every SoE title) It's just bad business.

    I didn't miss the point.  The point is play an alt for free.  I thought you could use your gear until you take it off?

  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member

    Read: TERA just launched an awesome FTP model and noone is playing ours because its shit.

    Seriously, any idiot could have told SoE that they would make hardly any money if they try to nickle and dime everyone rather than make money off cosmetic stuff, but no, they have to make sure that anyone who doesnt subscribe is a gimp.

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,207Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by kevjards
    not wanting to insult people but anyone that uses the term ridiculous limitations,greed etc.should really look in the mirror..you want everything for nothing and then bitch and moan about how the game is.that is greed of the highest order.you people should not be allowed near games has you serve no purpose to the community or the game itself.it costs millions to make these games and your asked to part with a few bucks.have to this is what gaming has turned into these days..a bunch of freeloaders.

    I understand your point and that some people want it all for nothing.  However, the point is, for me at least, how they are trying to generate revenue.  Recently the Neverwinter folks had a Q&A at a convention and mentioned that the goal is to provide a sytem where people want to pay and not feel prodded, forced, and cajoled into paying.

    Substandard Free Play models (for me of course): LotRO, EQ2, AoC

    Better Free Play models: Vanguard

    Good Free Play models: STO, Aion, L2, RaiderZ, Tera

    I also like the Buy to Play models used by GW2 and TSW.  In particular I think Funcom has done a great job having diverse payment options that aren't confusing.  Both GW2 and TSW need to make their stores a little more interesting though.  We will see how TSW turns out as it starts to price new episodes.  I'm basing this B2P opinion off of the value I felt I got from the initial purchase.

  • MardukkMardukk Posts: 1,556Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by evilastro

    Read: TERA just launched an awesome FTP model and noone is playing ours because its shit.

    Seriously, any idiot could have told SoE that they would make hardly any money if they try to nickle and dime everyone rather than make money off cosmetic stuff, but no, they have to make sure that anyone who doesnt subscribe is a gimp.

    I'm highly skeptical that cosmetic stuff only would make a company much...if anything.  I wish we had some insider numbers to confirm one way or the other.

     

    As someone said earlier on the thread.  It's basically a free trial model.  I give them a pass due to the extreme amount of content in EQ and VG up until you hit that endgame gear wall.

  • ScorchienScorchien Hatboro, PAPosts: 1,341Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by evilastro

    Read: TERA just launched an awesome FTP model and noone is playing ours because its shit.

    Seriously, any idiot could have told SoE that they would make hardly any money if they try to nickle and dime everyone rather than make money off cosmetic stuff, but no, they have to make sure that anyone who doesnt subscribe is a gimp.

      Compleltly False , There are many F2P players that are running around in gear as good or better than folks subbin at all lvl raanges ............And they can do all the same content as a subbed player , and pick and chose which gear to unlobk as they go if they want to...

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,207Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by evilastro

    Read: TERA just launched an awesome FTP model and noone is playing ours because its shit.

    Seriously, any idiot could have told SoE that they would make hardly any money if they try to nickle and dime everyone rather than make money off cosmetic stuff, but no, they have to make sure that anyone who doesnt subscribe is a gimp.

    You last statement is the clincher for me.  I don't mind good stuff being sold in the store, but I hate being nickle and dimed at every turn.  I hate that when my Gold status drops in EQ2 that all the good gear I've earned is stripped off me and I need to have a reserve set in the bank to wear or must craft/buy new gear.  But the thing I hate the most is knowing some features and mechanics, basically part of the game, is locked squarely behind a recurring fee.

    I probably wouldn't play EQ2 or LotRO if I didn't already have so much invested and open in the game.  As newer games offer better payment models there is less and less incentive for me to keep up with my older games.

  • DonpoohbearDonpoohbear tampa, FLPosts: 57Member Uncommon

    hey whos making a new charectar im patching it atm id love to play with some ppl

     

  • GishgeronGishgeron Princeton, KYPosts: 1,287Member
    Originally posted by Mardukk
    Originally posted by evilastro

    Read: TERA just launched an awesome FTP model and noone is playing ours because its shit.

    Seriously, any idiot could have told SoE that they would make hardly any money if they try to nickle and dime everyone rather than make money off cosmetic stuff, but no, they have to make sure that anyone who doesnt subscribe is a gimp.

    I'm highly skeptical that cosmetic stuff only would make a company much...if anything.  I wish we had some insider numbers to confirm one way or the other.

     

    As someone said earlier on the thread.  It's basically a free trial model.  I give them a pass due to the extreme amount of content in EQ and VG up until you hit that endgame gear wall.

     

     You don't need real numbers to draw an easy conclusion on cosmetics.  Would you buy them?  Do you know anyone who, if already pressed enough to want a free game, WOULD buy them?  The market is very small, but in a large game can amount to a nice sum of money.  In a small game, thats been all but abandoned by the community at large, cosmetic only revenue would be disasterous.  A great plan WOULD be to go B2P with regular paid updates.  However that model only works when created from the ground up, and performs poorly once a studio has already stripped its staff to a bones crew.  Vanguard no longer has a huge team behind it, so those updates would be slow coming, and it already has enough bugs the few people they have left NEED to work on. 

    So, from a business perspective, they don't exactly have a ton of options in what F2P model they can run with.  The one they are going with now isn't that bad.  It has to be restrictive on some level or there is no need to ever pay for it.  At that point they might as well stick to having a short free trial and a full sub, even with its small audience.  If it hadn't been so long coming already, they could have captured initial interest in the game back when it was still relatively new by trying to bring some more devs in and go with the B2P option AND a cosmetic shop with some land deeds for sale (large in scope, for castles and such so the free player can still own enough land to have a small house of their own).  Trying to do that now would be silly, its an old game and the market is much larger now.  It would be an uphill battle, and no businessman is going to give the all clear on that plan EVER.

    The problem with this site, and with gamers as a whole, is that they are just regular civilians with no background or understanding of how business works or even how the MMO market functions, as a whole.  You hear all of this spiteful nonsense because they feel that if one game is doing something they like that all games can.  Thats just pure ignorance.

    image

  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member
    Originally posted by Mardukk
    Originally posted by evilastro

    Read: TERA just launched an awesome FTP model and noone is playing ours because its shit.

    Seriously, any idiot could have told SoE that they would make hardly any money if they try to nickle and dime everyone rather than make money off cosmetic stuff, but no, they have to make sure that anyone who doesnt subscribe is a gimp.

    I'm highly skeptical that cosmetic stuff only would make a company much...if anything.  I wish we had some insider numbers to confirm one way or the other.

     

    As someone said earlier on the thread.  It's basically a free trial model.  I give them a pass due to the extreme amount of content in EQ and VG up until you hit that endgame gear wall.

     Its working for Aion.

    Anyway, like you said, its a free trial. If you want to play a SoE game, its not F2P, its a free trial. You cant be competitive without subscribing or dumping a lot of money into the cash shop. Its just how they roll. (PS2 excepted of course).

  • GishgeronGishgeron Princeton, KYPosts: 1,287Member
    Originally posted by evilastro
    Originally posted by Mardukk
    Originally posted by evilastro

    Read: TERA just launched an awesome FTP model and noone is playing ours because its shit.

    Seriously, any idiot could have told SoE that they would make hardly any money if they try to nickle and dime everyone rather than make money off cosmetic stuff, but no, they have to make sure that anyone who doesnt subscribe is a gimp.

    I'm highly skeptical that cosmetic stuff only would make a company much...if anything.  I wish we had some insider numbers to confirm one way or the other.

     

    As someone said earlier on the thread.  It's basically a free trial model.  I give them a pass due to the extreme amount of content in EQ and VG up until you hit that endgame gear wall.

     Its working for Aion.

    Anyway, like you said, its a free trial. If you want to play a SoE game, its not F2P, its a free trial. You cant be competitive without subscribing or dumping a lot of money into the cash shop. Its just how they roll. (PS2 excepted of course).

      I was under the impression that Aion had more than cosmetic stuff in the shop.  I don't mean pay 2 win, though I haven't checked recently, but I had thought they did sell thing that had function as well as form.  In either case Aion still has far more players, and pools from a large potential market, than Vanguard.  So the cosmetic only option would still fare better for them than these guys.

    image

  • DirkinDirkin Manassas, VAPosts: 78Member
    Originally posted by evilastro
    Originally posted by Mardukk
    Originally posted by evilastro

    Read: TERA just launched an awesome FTP model and noone is playing ours because its shit.

    Seriously, any idiot could have told SoE that they would make hardly any money if they try to nickle and dime everyone rather than make money off cosmetic stuff, but no, they have to make sure that anyone who doesnt subscribe is a gimp.

    I'm highly skeptical that cosmetic stuff only would make a company much...if anything.  I wish we had some insider numbers to confirm one way or the other.

     

    As someone said earlier on the thread.  It's basically a free trial model.  I give them a pass due to the extreme amount of content in EQ and VG up until you hit that endgame gear wall.

     Its working for Aion.

    Anyway, like you said, its a free trial. If you want to play a SoE game, its not F2P, its a free trial. You cant be competitive without subscribing or dumping a lot of money into the cash shop. Its just how they roll. (PS2 excepted of course).

     

    You can't be competitive at end game and raiding without spending some money. You can do just fine on the way up.

  • jonrd463jonrd463 Tacoma, WAPosts: 598Member
    Originally posted by Aeonblades
    Originally posted by Mardukk
    Originally posted by Aeonblades
    Sorry Vanguard, I had high hopes from the beginning, but years of neglect can't be made up for by a very badly done B2P model. When are you people gonna realize that no one can play the game with the stupid limitations you set? It's like how on EQ I tried the F2P version, you can't even get enough money to buy gear because of coin limitations. Crap like that has no place if you want F2P to work.

     

    You can level up (through countless amounts of content) which can take quite some time and not run into an item you need to unlock, in EQ. I really wonder about people and what they claim is unplayable... So SOE lifts some restrictions and people act like they added more...lol.

     

    You missed the point entirely. When I log onto Vanguard, which I paid full price for, and I can't play any of my old characters because of gear restrictions, who does that punish? The greedy turd or the loyal customer who bought it and played for almost a year. I gave them more money than they are going to make on 90% of these F2P players, so what is my incentive to play if I can't play my characters because they are all half naked? Gear restrictions are silly. Coin limitations are silly (in pretty much every SoE title) It's just bad business.

    When you paid full price for Vanguard, you did so under the agreement that you would be paying a $15/month  subscription fee for unlimited access beyond the free initial month. That option is still available.

    "You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous

  • Dreamo84Dreamo84 Niagara Falls, NYPosts: 3,437Member Uncommon
    More people need to know about this generous F2P model now. I hope other SoE games follow suite.

    image
  • WraithoneWraithone Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 3,592Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Benedikt
    torgir, tsabohavoc:
    *.... must .... keep .... it .... must .... not ....comment ....on their .... posts*
    sorry folks I am not able to keep away from commenting, so here it is: thank you that you dont like the f2p changes. i really dont want to meat people like you in the game.

    you got almost everything possible for free and you are bitching that it is not enough? give me a break

    From what I've seen its a decent enough system. I played the game for awhile years back (near to launch) and then a few years after that. It seems fairly entertaining, but it was a ghost town the last time I tried it.

    What type of meat are you planning to use on people in the game? I prefer beef, but it doesn't hold up well... ^^

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