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Do You Remember When....

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  • MudfinMudfin Green Country, OKPosts: 14Member
    Originally posted by MadnessRealm
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by birdycephon

     

     

     

    It has nothing to do with nostalgia, and everything to do with how different the communities are, and how much games have shifted their system compared to their old counterparts.

     

    Older MMOs were developped more as sandboxes or at least giving players as many tools as possible to do what they want to do (UO, SWG, etc).  They would also require the involvement of several players to achieve even basic things such as leveling (EQ, FFXI, etc).  Both of these things created great communities of players that care about more than just themselves, but also the people they play and interact with.

     

    Today's MMOs are very restrictive in terms of what players can do, and are extremely solo-centric. Rather than being about communities, MMOs are about "You".  The need to interact with other players has greatly lessened with the exception of end-game, but the need to develop any relationship was also removed through the addition of PUGs.

     

    That is not to say that older MMOs were perfect, by no mean were they even close. However, to claim that our preference to older MMOs is purely out of nostalgia, considering how different the games and communities were compared to today, is just pure ignorance.

     

    I was reading replies and starting to get out of my rocking chair to post when I saw this reply. 

     

    No need to post.  This said it all.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Freezzo

    Edit: I'd like to add that the solo generation (as I call it) has ruined it for me. People who prefer to go through the content solo, because they don't want to be bothered by others, should play singleplayer games. They like the feel of MMOs, but they don't get what the game is about. Just my 2 cents :P These people really annoy the hell out of me

    Who are you to tell others how to consume their entertainment? And you got it reverse. It is the devs who want a piece of their business.

    If STO makes a decent SP experience when i play the story mission, tell me a reason why i should not enjoy it as a SP game?

    Plus, solo-ing != SP all the time. How about if i want to solo dungeons, but trades in the AH? There is only ONE SP game with a AH. So naturally if i want variety, i should play MMO solo, and then use their AHs.

  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel houston, TXPosts: 7,275Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Freezzo

    Edit: I'd like to add that the solo generation (as I call it) has ruined it for me. People who prefer to go through the content solo, because they don't want to be bothered by others, should play singleplayer games. They like the feel of MMOs, but they don't get what the game is about. Just my 2 cents :P These people really annoy the hell out of me

    Who are you to tell others how to consume their entertainment? And you got it reverse. It is the devs who want a piece of their business.

    If STO makes a decent SP experience when i play the story mission, tell me a reason why i should not enjoy it as a SP game?

    Plus, solo-ing != SP all the time. How about if i want to solo dungeons, but trades in the AH? There is only ONE SP game with a AH. So naturally if i want variety, i should play MMO solo, and then use their AHs.

    The developers have learned that creating a game generates a lot of hype and up front revenue,  but so many of them have also learned that it also leads to diminishing subs and decreased populations, much faster then games that are built around the community aspect.  

     

    We see a lot of great games out there right now,  but it doesn't appear any have really hit their projections as to where they thought they would be just a few months after launch.  

     

    Some developers want to entertain by trying new tricks, and putting spins on how to group and how to interact,  but lets face it, sometimes the old ways are best.  You don't see the NBA raising the basket to 18 FT, or increasing the size of the court and adding more players.  

     

    Its amazing how many tried and true systems that build attachment to a game haven't even been utilized in over half of the new releases.  Things like housing, or player run stores.  Things that breed attachment and community, and therefore, longevity.

    This decision that everyone should play with everyone on any server, and yet, not be required to play with anyone ever makes no sense and is contradictory.  I'd rather have more options regarding the ways to play with the people around me (on my server) , instead of a very small amount of ways to play with tons of people, most of which want to play a game by themselves.

     

    Its a lot about the player... and its a lot to be said for the way the players react within the common design we've seen.

    "Loan me a Dragon I wanna see space"


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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by maskedweasel

    Its amazing how many tried and true systems that build attachment to a game haven't even been utilized in over half of the new releases.  Things like housing, or player run stores.  Things that breed attachment and community, and therefore, longevity.

    Because players don't think these are important? It is not like the ideas have not been tried.

    This decision that everyone should play with everyone on any server, and yet, not be required to play with anyone ever makes no sense and is contradictory.  I'd rather have more options regarding the ways to play with the people around me (on my server) , instead of a very small amount of ways to play with tons of people, most of which want to play a game by themselves.

    It is called choice. And what do you mean by "very small amount of ways to paly with tons of people" ... if you look at WOW as an example, the choice of playing with others:

    - H dungeons, 3 levels of raids, BG and arenas.

    And choice of playing solo ... quests. So there are MORE ways to play with others.

    Lastly, if people want to play by themselves, and occasionally inspect others to see their gear, and do some trading on AH, what is wrong? MMOs are entertainment products. People should use the product whatever way they enjoy since that is the purpose of games.

     

  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel houston, TXPosts: 7,275Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by maskedweasel

    Its amazing how many tried and true systems that build attachment to a game haven't even been utilized in over half of the new releases.  Things like housing, or player run stores.  Things that breed attachment and community, and therefore, longevity.

    Because players don't think these are important? It is not like the ideas have not been tried.

    This decision that everyone should play with everyone on any server, and yet, not be required to play with anyone ever makes no sense and is contradictory.  I'd rather have more options regarding the ways to play with the people around me (on my server) , instead of a very small amount of ways to play with tons of people, most of which want to play a game by themselves.

    It is called choice. And what do you mean by "very small amount of ways to paly with tons of people" ... if you look at WOW as an example, the choice of playing with others:

    - H dungeons, 3 levels of raids, BG and arenas.

    And choice of playing solo ... quests. So there are MORE ways to play with others.

    Lastly, if people want to play by themselves, and occasionally inspect others to see their gear, and do some trading on AH, what is wrong? MMOs are entertainment products. People should use the product whatever way they enjoy since that is the purpose of games.

     

    The problem is,  the games you mention are a dime a dozen,  and only now are things starting to swing back around.  

     

    Player run shops will make their way back.. they aren't always the easy way,  but they require interaction, travel, and investment.  Player housing has been done recently, but nothing really in an open world setting where your land is part of the actual world.   

     

    The new cool thing in MMOs nowadays is grouping with as little interaction as possible.  Group finders.. allowing people to invite themselves in,  and general quests where anyone who just happens to walk by will get rewarded are great for the solo minded,  but will they last?    

     

     

    "Loan me a Dragon I wanna see space"


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  • darkkblackdarkkblack Lowell, NCPosts: 38Member
    Eve online gives me great times of nostalgia. Even just hearing some mp3 files from the game. That airy space music. I do enjoy just settling in to tick off a few hours of getting the feel of my ship and what it can do. I do miss those first few weeks when I first started and everything was new. I remember that I stayed awake for 5 days straight playing and learning. Worth the investment.

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  • AcidonAcidon Salem, ORPosts: 797Member
    Originally posted by apocoluster
       Ok who let grandpa on the interwebz   :)

     

    Okay, I thought that was mildly funny, then I realized for the first time that I could conceivably become a grandpa any time now..

     

    When did I get old? =/

     

    To the OP, that was a different generation both in regard to people and in gaming.  I miss it, too.  But you can still find some of it if you actively look for it.

    Playing: H1Z1, The Crew, Defiance, APB:Reloaded
    Mourning: World of Darkness, Vanguard, City of Heroes


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    My Humble MMO Blog:
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    Free, Clean & Safe Quality of Life Software:
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  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by maskedweasel

    When playing that MMO was more of an experience then "just another game"?

    What happened to those times?

    Well, taking this one for example, "just another game" implies that you've played dozens or hundreds of them.

    If I owned 60 or 70 classic muscle cars, that '67 Mustang would be "just another car" in the garage for my mechanics to take care of. Whereas, if it were the only one I'd ever puchased, I would lavish it with adoration.

    You don't see many players sporting one mmo on their "games I've played" list. But you do see a pretty fair number of them sporting 20 or more.

    I wonder why the shiny has begun to pale.  Baffling.

    I'm not that teenager that first started playing computer games; and no matter how long or hard I try, I will not ever see the world through the same eyes again.

    How long have you been trotting out the nostalgia wallow as a repeating topic, weas?

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • ibn_Cartwellibn_Cartwell Northwest, MTPosts: 47Member

    I know most will not read this, but heres a post I came across recently that I feel coincedes with almost all my feelings about MMORPG's! Bold parts for people who don't want to read whole thing.

    ~

    While I don't want to be 'that guy', I recently came to the conclusion that AC2 is no longer the game for me. Now, let me preface this by saying I loved the game during it's first time around, and I certainly love the game now. It is an amazing game and deserves more respect in the MMO market then it has gotten over the years I feel. I still remember the many hours I sunk into the game, even winning a contest on AC2HQ for a story I wrote about the Undead invasions back in the day.

    To the topic at hand though, when AC2 was reactivated my wife and I activated AC1 accounts for AC2 alone, we both missed the game that much, as I am sure many others did as well. I noticed though that it was only a week or so then my wife simply stopped logging in. When I asked her why, she first used the server crashing as an excuse. I accepted that up until the server was more stable, then I pushed her again why she didn't log in at all. Her answer was one that was straight forward and honest. She said 'I Don't want to spend time running around in circles looking for pyreals, I don't want to spend grind anymore. That's just not who I am anymore'. It was a disappointing hit to the entertainment level of the game for me, but a word of truth I had to agree with.

    As I played the game, I realized just how much the community as a whole had changed from the Thistledown AC2 community I remember from back in the day when I was a member of Order of the Sacred Moon. The groups seemed a lot more light hearted back in the day, and less focused on the most efficient XP grind. Some of the most entertaining times I had was tanking Boots, IF, and MA as a Juggernaught after that class was given the shield ability. Now days however, I have seen that parties won't leave the lifestone unless they have the 'perfect' debuffer, ignoring the fact that more then the Sorc can debuff. One member of the Ally I joined during this beta complained that some people were pushing that even the Fender wasn't a real tank when compared to the FI.

    It doesn't just stop at how parties are set-up however. The groups of today rarely have the camaraderie that I remember having from back in the day. In one group the Sage was told to stop talking and concentrate on the game, even though no one was, or has been at any point, in any danger of dying. We aren't talking about long statements, but short burst of input to other players. Needless to say that the Sage eventually did leave the group. The reason I originally fell in love with AC2, and FFXI, is the fact that groups did manage to talk and have fun while killing, but today I find myself fight in silence, only saying when you are going AFK, the initial hellos, and when you are leaving.

    That is the community, and something I was willing to try to push through because I thought my Ally was actually really good and decent folk. The thing that actually broke me was the reintroduction of the Hero System strangely enough. As I sat there looking at the parts I would need to farm, I suddenly found myself thinking, 'This isn't fun anymore. I don't want to do this'. I farmed/grinded my various pyreals, all my levels, stayed for multiple mob kills, and the the Hero System just pushed the final button that made me realize what my wife said was true for me as well.

    Like I said before, the community changes I can push beyond, even if I didn't find myself happy with it. The quest item grind though, that just dug into me however. That is something that could easily enough be fixed and made simpler for everyone involved. I'll use lower level quests most people are accustomed to for my upcoming examples.

    In the quest 'Slavetaker's Head', each member of the fellowship is required to kill and loot their own Burun Slavetaker head quest item. This could require 2-9 kills depending on the size of the fellowship (assuming you don't have a high level helping you). If you look at the Cragstone Excavation though, the fellowship only needs one person to pick up the blueprint for the entire group to get the quest update and to finish off the quest. I'd like to see almost every quest work like Cragstone Excavation does, as once you kill the Slavetaker once, he doesn't suddenly become more challenging the next time you kill one, its just another kill at that point. Granted some quests can't work like that, like the Soulbound Weapon questlines, but those quests are few and far between everything else considered.

    The other thing that would go a long ways towards helping stream line quests now days is changing how fights that include multiple groups get credit. Take Shade of the Lost Heroes (Boots) as a good example. If three fellows all go in to help kill boss, that means that each group needs to kill the boss three separate times. The boss doesn't suddenly become harder after the first kill, much like the Slavetaker quest, so each kill is simply a matter of grinding the boss till each group gets their own kill. This could simply be fixed by giving everyone in the boss chamber credit for the kill once the first kill is made. You could also limit it down to 2-4 fellows worth of people allowed in each boss fight to limit just how many people can receive credit at any one time.

    I don't want to see the game get any easier through unneeded nerfs, as I think where AC2 is at right now is great balance of difficult and easy content. the game has it's share of bugs, but no MMO is immune to that aspect so I don't count it against AC2 for the time being. The community has changed, I have changed, but AC2 itself is a game that has remained frozen in time until a few weeks ago. I will continue to keep my eyes on AC2 and watch it's development, but for the time being, the game as it currently stands, does not fit into my lifestyle of today. I am hoping that this post is constructive in the long run, and I look forward to playing AC2 again at some point when my life is no longer as resource intensive as it currently is.

     

    ~

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    WoW and big name publishers happened.
  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,608Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by maskedweasel

    When playing that MMO was more of an experience then "just another game"?

    What happened to those times?

    Well, taking this one for example, "just another game" implies that you've played dozens or hundreds of them.

    If I owned 60 or 70 classic muscle cars, that '67 Mustang would be "just another car" in the garage for my mechanics to take care of. Whereas, if it were the only one I'd ever puchased, I would lavish it with adoration.

    You don't see many players sporting one mmo on their "games I've played" list. But you do see a pretty fair number of them sporting 20 or more.

    I wonder why the shiny has begun to pale.  Baffling.

    I'm not that teenager that first started playing computer games; and no matter how long or hard I try, I will not ever see the world through the same eyes again.

    I don't agree with you all that often, but you're spot on this time. 

  • Goatgod76Goatgod76 Stow, OHPosts: 1,214Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by ObiClownobi
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Reklaw

    nariusseldon: You probelby do not understand that those of us who want a more virtual world want to be entertained by that aswell it might not be the type of entertainment you seek. If I want fast entertainment I am lucky to enjoy allot of other genre of games. Never thought MMORPG would be put into the fast entertainment type, but long term entertaining virtual worlds to play in as we please at our own pace why rush if what's not done today can be done tomorrow/nextweek/month instead of being told what to do and rushing towards the same gameplay multiplayer games already offer.

    How can i not understand when this "virtual world" thing is being flogged to death here every day? Don't confuse between understanding and agreeing. I just don't share that preference.

     

    8432 posts, believe us, we know

    And yet some sounds like they are surprised when they are confronted with preferences other than their own.

    Hypocrit much?

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid hell, NJPosts: 6,759Member Uncommon
    OP that was many years ago. Everyone has gone in the both directions.... players expectations going too high while game company at the same time going the other way too, greedier (charging more) but lazier (delivering less)

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  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by rojo6934
    OP that was many years ago. Everyone has gone in the both directions.... players expectations going too high while game company at the same time going the other way too, greedier (charging more) but lazier (delivering less)

    Expectations are lower than they've ever been. When games like Rift are called "good" we've hit the bottom.

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,757Member Uncommon
    Expectation is high with regards to graphics, being cheap to play and being able to solo your way to top level. Expectations are low for just about everything else.
  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel houston, TXPosts: 7,275Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by maskedweasel

    When playing that MMO was more of an experience then "just another game"?

    What happened to those times?

    Well, taking this one for example, "just another game" implies that you've played dozens or hundreds of them.

    If I owned 60 or 70 classic muscle cars, that '67 Mustang would be "just another car" in the garage for my mechanics to take care of. Whereas, if it were the only one I'd ever puchased, I would lavish it with adoration.

    You don't see many players sporting one mmo on their "games I've played" list. But you do see a pretty fair number of them sporting 20 or more.

    I wonder why the shiny has begun to pale.  Baffling.

    I'm not that teenager that first started playing computer games; and no matter how long or hard I try, I will not ever see the world through the same eyes again.

    How long have you been trotting out the nostalgia wallow as a repeating topic, weas?

    I don't believe I wallow very often on nostalgia at all actually.   I think this might be my first thread created on the topic in all these years.....  

     

     This topic came to mind when I began reading through some threads after a long hiatus from not only playing MMOs,  but also reading these forums... I've probably been off of here for what.. almost 6 months?   I come back to a lot of the same complaints about a whole host of different games...

     

    So its partially the players... but to think it isn't also the way games have evolved is silly.  I play through tons of games, yes - but I still feel that a game can still deliver that feeling of excitement and enjoyment by pulling together more of the attachment and community aspect, instead of trivializing it as just about every game has done in the past 10 years..

     

    Of course times have changed, and players have changed.  We would all be sad people if we were the same exact person 10 years ago that we are today....  growth is important...  but when you look back to 10 years ago, there were probably things you did well, that you wish you kept up with... maybe exercised more,  maybe weighed less,  maybe had a mustache.... ---  point being,  just because some of the systems are older doesn't mean they aren't fun.     We see very little of what made the older games exciting.   I think its more then just nostalgia goggles.

     

    And to those saying I could always go back and play UO or what have you.... I can't go back and play SWGs.  I can't even go back and play CoH... ha..

    "Loan me a Dragon I wanna see space"


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  • JayFiveAliveJayFiveAlive Arvada, COPosts: 534Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by birdycephon

    Guess what though, its not that the times have changes, its the people who changed.

    If you go back and replay all those 'awesome' games, you'll  see that there is hardly anything awesome about them besides your memories.

    The only reason they seemed awsome back in the day, was because thay were the best there was at the time.

    I thought the same way you did - that something wouldn't be as "awesome" because it would feel dated, but at least in terms of MMOs that was not the case for me.

    EQ is one of my fav MMOs/games of all time (pre-Luclin) and I got soo tired of these newer on-rails MMOs. I tried Project 99 and wow, it was just as fun as I had remembered (despite the extra bugs that P99 had in it that werent in the retail game). Well, eventually I left cause no PvP at the time. But months later, the itch returned to play, so I tried a new progression server that SOE made. Again, amazingly fun and had just the same awesome feel, but again it got old cause no PvP.

    I played on Rallos Zek (PvP) server back in the day, so it's not quite the same without that interaction, but replaying EQ multiple times since the glory days has shown me that it is still amazingly fun to me. ;) I'd pay a good amount per month to play a legit game that is like the original EQ and I'd be fine if they improved on stuff here and there... as long as they didn't make it to themeparky.

     

    But I love the idea of the MMO world that feels like a world... most MMOs these days don't feel like worlds at all. Also, I don't have a strong care for my character like I did back in EQ days. Everyone is a copy of another person. You can't really stand out anymore because casuals must be catered too. Things are changing though. The next 2-3 years we will see many more open sandbox games that feel more like worlds. People get bored of MMOs way too fast these days... they want more to do then run to point A, kill X rats, run to be B kill x theives for their hands, etc. That's my guess anyway.

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