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1000 people working on a game to make it most lengthy, deep with replayability and daily patches - i

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  • GrayKodiakGrayKodiak Nada, FLPosts: 576Member

    Back in the day,

    way way back in the day...like in the morning of MMO's when they were still Mud's, text based and your UI...if you had a ui...was a paper doll that turned red when a limb was hurt (yea they had limb specific mechanics back then...something we still don't really do)

    back in those days, GM's were people who would randomly spawn invasions, your city would be full of monsters of every type from kobolds to demon elementals...it was glorious and it never seems to work in the new MMO's

    Part of the reason would probably be all the crying people would do if the race to level 100 was slowed down because they couldn't turn in a quest because some "Stupid developer" decided to do a "stupid event" but man..those events rocked you would have the entire city engaged and healers and rezzers would set up shop in the town center while low levels would scatter out of the hell that was happening or just die. You could drag bodies in most of those text based games, another thing we don't see now...probably because someone would use it to grief...but people would be dragging the dead to the rezzers even if they couldn't fight they could do something.

    I would like to see those types of events happen...not content updates just events that happen and a code capable of letting people put those events into place and then employees willing to use that code to enhance the fun of the game.

    They would also set up random shops where you could buy unique items, now I know it is much easier to do unique items back then because it was basically just changing text where as now you would have to recode graphics or put in new ones...still you would think it wouldn't be that hard to change color paterns and the like to make some nice stuff...

    ahh well I am done talking about the hazy old days.

    It would be cool if you had enough developers in a game to run stuff like this though, instead of having programmers only involved in making expansions and content updates and bug fixes and class rebalancing.

  • Caliburn101Caliburn101 LondonPosts: 636Member

    Odd isn't it - that an MMO hasn't come out where GM controlled event spawns can happen.

    Create a toolset, train the people using it and hand them a timetable with flexibility and watch the player base wax lyrical about the 'living' world they play in.

    All for a medium waged individual per server.

    Seems strange it hasn't been done, a toolset has to be easier to program, not to mention better in realising challenging events than a precoded, predetermined, 'on-rails' system.

    Cheaper too probably...

  • sassoonsssassoonss Monroe Town Patricia Palace, NYPosts: 1,112Member

    Leaving economics aside in theorey it could be an evolving server whenin it starts with minimal infrastructure.

     

    All contenet would be player generated and developers would ensure that player daily contribution wouldf result in action the next day.say vai voting or other means players decide to create a town hall then the  very next day on a mass scale option whodul be availabe for players to clear the land , cut tress , level the ground , start building etc ...

     

    On a larger scale daily world events could be reflected in the world

     

    in in hypothetical tersm the concept would be amazing

  • RednecksithRednecksith Madison heights, MIPosts: 1,238Member

    I will simply leave you with a saying echoing the sentiments of others in this thread:

    "Too many chefs spoil the stew."

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,641Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Caliburn101

    Odd isn't it - that an MMO hasn't come out where GM controlled event spawns can happen.

    Not odd at all. MUDs pioneered it, UO tried to bring it to commercial MMOs and many have tried it since. There are several factors involved that may seem easy to resolve on the surface but present major problems. Some are

    - Perceived favoritism

    - Covering prime hours for all regions

    - Negatively impactingplayers that are not involved (collateral damage)

    - Properly training such a massive staff

    - Adherence to lore and other persistent or ongoing game aspects

    - COST of training/maintaining the event staff for any sizable multi-region game.

     

    It works great in MUDs, free games and games that are more of a game than a world. In MMOs, moreso sub MMOs than F2P, they usually are limited to specific events (ex: http://ihavereturned.com/) and are heavily monitored/logged because the chance of perceived abuse is usually rather high.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • Caliburn101Caliburn101 LondonPosts: 636Member
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Caliburn101

    Odd isn't it - that an MMO hasn't come out where GM controlled event spawns can happen.

    Not odd at all. MUDs pioneered it, UO tried to bring it to commercial MMOs and many have tried it since. There are several factors involved that may seem easy to resolve on the surface but present major problems. Some are

    - Perceived favoritism

    - Covering prime hours for all regions

    - Negatively impactingplayers that are not involved (collateral damage)

    - Properly training such a massive staff

    - Adherence to lore and other persistent or ongoing game aspects

    - COST of training/maintaining the event staff for any sizable multi-region game.

     

    It works great in MUDs, free games and games that are more of a game than a world. In MMOs, moreso sub MMOs than F2P, they usually are limited to specific events (ex: http://ihavereturned.com/) and are heavily monitored/logged because the chance of perceived abuse is usually rather high.

    To answer these from my perspective;

    Perceived favouritism - good procedures would eliminate this

    Covering prime hours - not sure why you think this a problem in a 24/7 world where there can be employees in every time zone...

    Collateral damage - live controllers means live response - too many players arrive late, roll the evnt over and add more waves or iterations. Too few, let is simmer away and hit the peak once the numbers are right etc.

    Massive staff? - not a problem - just ensure the toolset is good and only have this kind of controlled event now and again - the rest of the world can be scripted. People will still feel the love trust me...

    Adherence to lore? - training and quality control issue - use a service provision model with a well delineated toolset, live monitoring and reiterative training and no problem.

    COST - cost is negligible - as I said - have the majority of the world scripted and have these thrown in to spice things up, not as the only game in town.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,641Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Caliburn101
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Caliburn101

    Odd isn't it - that an MMO hasn't come out where GM controlled event spawns can happen.

    Not odd at all. MUDs pioneered it, UO tried to bring it to commercial MMOs and many have tried it since. There are several factors involved that may seem easy to resolve on the surface but present major problems. Some are

    - Perceived favoritism

    - Covering prime hours for all regions

    - Negatively impactingplayers that are not involved (collateral damage)

    - Properly training such a massive staff

    - Adherence to lore and other persistent or ongoing game aspects

    - COST of training/maintaining the event staff for any sizable multi-region game.

     

    It works great in MUDs, free games and games that are more of a game than a world. In MMOs, moreso sub MMOs than F2P, they usually are limited to specific events (ex: http://ihavereturned.com/) and are heavily monitored/logged because the chance of perceived abuse is usually rather high.

    To answer these from my perspective;

    Perceived favouritism - good procedures would eliminate this

    Covering prime hours - not sure why you think this a problem in a 24/7 world where there can be employees in every time zone...

    Collateral damage - live controllers means live response - too many players arrive late, roll the evnt over and add more waves or iterations. Too few, let is simmer away and hit the peak once the numbers are right etc.

    Massive staff? - not a problem - just ensure the toolset is good and only have this kind of controlled event now and again - the rest of the world can be scripted. People will still feel the love trust me...

    Adherence to lore? - training and quality control issue - use a service provision model with a well delineated toolset, live monitoring and reiterative training and no problem.

    COST - cost is negligible - as I said - have the majority of the world scripted and have these thrown in to spice things up, not as the only game in town.

    Again, they seem easy to resolve to you. You also seem to have answered each in a vaccuum as you solve one problem by adding another layer of staff and additional hours to existing staff... then contend the next problem, Cost, isn't one.  I've done live events for Ultima Online, vMTV and EVE Online either as a lead or a member of the team. I'm speaking from over a decade of experience working on these things. Unless you have a very small playerbase of a few thousand, multiple problems from that list above rear their head. The longer you do the events, the more the problem grows if for no other reason than it becomes more prevalent.

    There's several reasons devs don't do these things on a regular basis in a major MMO.  Laziness and didn't think of it aren't two of them.

     

    "Collateral damage - live controllers means live response - too many players arrive late, roll the evnt over and add more waves or iterations. Too few, let is simmer away and hit the peak once the numbers are right etc."

    I should have been clearer there. In your example, that would be players that aren't even involved. I'm talking about players that are negatively involved. Like the miner that you didn't see when dropping a field of orcs, or the guy riding through to get to his guild event when your lizardman caravan showed up, or the guild that has been prepping for a guild event in the area your event just sealed of on them.

    Now, before you answer... consider your answer. Is that the answer that you feel most players would find acceptable if they were the miner or one of the guildies?

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • TsaboHavocTsaboHavoc PinheiralPosts: 351Member
    Originally posted by ObiClownobi

    Depends, are they EA employees?

     

    lol if so, water and bread are not expensive, nor the dark dungeons to shelter them.
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,641Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by TsaboHavoc

    Originally posted by ObiClownobi

    Depends, are they EA employees?

     

    lol if so, water and bread are not expensive, nor the dark dungeons to shelter them.

     

    You guys are cruel. :)

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • JyiigaJyiiga Seneca, SCPosts: 1,041Member Uncommon

    If "The Foundry" feature of Neverwinter is as good as we are being told... That will allow for plentiful content and story, generated by the users.

    That is what these kinda games should be about anyways. Let us build things, let us run events, let us have a stake in the game.

    Http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/09/06/the-diy-mmorpg-how-the-neverwinter-foundry-system-could-change-online-rpgs/

    "Too much money and too many developers are chasing the MMO dragon, and this has created a bloated market with too much competition and too few winners."

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,641Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Jyiiga

    If "The Foundry" feature of Neverwinter is as good as we are being told... That will allow for plentiful content and story, generated by the users.That is what these kinda games should be about anyways. Let us build things, let us run events, let us have a stake in the game.Http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/09/06/the-diy-mmorpg-how-the-neverwinter-foundry-system-could-change-online-rpgs/"Too much money and too many developers are chasing the MMO dragon, and this has created a bloated market with too much competition and too few winners."Sorry about the horrible formatting.. MMORPG.com is not recognizing any spaces I put in.

     

    Word. I am anxious to either see Foundry-style systems created or virtual tabletops start to emerge. The latter I think will only become commercial (several smaller projects exist already) once people figure out how to best monetize it.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,757Member Uncommon
    I think we have about 800k under 25's unemployed in the UK. One ear training course then three years to build the best MMO ever. :D
  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by lizardbones

    You would start to get diminishing returns at some point.

     

    Editor's misbehaving this morning I see.

    You see this proposed by people fairly often; can't you just hire more devs and throw more money at it.

    The proposer(s) generally haven't ever worked on a large coding team.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,772Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Caliburn101

    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Caliburn101
    Odd isn't it - that an MMO hasn't come out where GM controlled event spawns can happen.

    Not odd at all. MUDs pioneered it, UO tried to bring it to commercial MMOs and many have tried it since. There are several factors involved that may seem easy to resolve on the surface but present major problems. Some are

    - Perceived favoritism

    - Covering prime hours for all regions

    - Negatively impactingplayers that are not involved (collateral damage)

    - Properly training such a massive staff

    - Adherence to lore and other persistent or ongoing game aspects

    - COST of training/maintaining the event staff for any sizable multi-region game.

     

    It works great in MUDs, free games and games that are more of a game than a world. In MMOs, moreso sub MMOs than F2P, they usually are limited to specific events (ex: http://ihavereturned.com/) and are heavily monitored/logged because the chance of perceived abuse is usually rather high.

    To answer these from my perspective;

    Perceived favouritism - good procedures would eliminate this

    Covering prime hours - not sure why you think this a problem in a 24/7 world where there can be employees in every time zone...

    Collateral damage - live controllers means live response - too many players arrive late, roll the evnt over and add more waves or iterations. Too few, let is simmer away and hit the peak once the numbers are right etc.

    Massive staff? - not a problem - just ensure the toolset is good and only have this kind of controlled event now and again - the rest of the world can be scripted. People will still feel the love trust me...

    Adherence to lore? - training and quality control issue - use a service provision model with a well delineated toolset, live monitoring and reiterative training and no problem.

    COST - cost is negligible - as I said - have the majority of the world scripted and have these thrown in to spice things up, not as the only game in town.

     

    You're never going to eliminate the perception of favoritism, even if you could eliminate the reality of it. If people can believe that the game's random number generators are biased against them even when it isn't plausible, then how are you going to convince them that GMs that have given them a warning or a temp ban in the past aren't biased against them when it's highly plausible?
  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    You're never going to eliminate the perception of favoritism, even if you could eliminate the reality of it. If people can believe that the game's random number generators are biased against them even when it isn't plausible, then how are you going to convince them that GMs that have given them a warning or a temp ban in the past aren't biased against them when it's highly plausible?

     

    The conspiracy theorists would have a good time with it, at least.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko RotterdamPosts: 3,845Member Uncommon

    Afaik SWTOR actually HAD about 1000 people working on it at one stage. And the result of that epic effort (and expense) was not exactly a runaway success...


    A really "deep" game will result in really complex code, because so many things will be affected by other things and events. It's a huge effort to develop complex software that has a high degree of inter-dependence between different systems. A small change in one area can have unexpected results in totally different parts of the system.


    The more people you have in a development team, the more time you have to spend talking to each other about what you PLAN to do, as opposed to actually doing it. If you had 1000 programmers, most of them would be doing nothing 50% of the time, because they'll be waiting for approval to go ahead with their planned changes or new feature implementations.

    EDIT: Wtf is up with formatting today ? 0.0

  • LeegOfChldrnLeegOfChldrn Jcakson, MSPosts: 364Member

    THE REALITY

    A lot of the bigger MMO's probably have far over 1000 people working on a game.

    That of course includes customer service, tech support, outsourced employees, server maintenance, etc. The actual amount of graphic artists, writers, and game programmers are probably very few comparatively. Once a MMORPG gets released, most of the team leaves or their contract ends, leaving very few of what were once many artists and programmers- even designers.

     

    THE IDEA

    The idea of "1000 people working on a game to make it lengthy, deep, and replayable with daily patches" is more about a large number of people working to make this happen, and less about the actual number of 1000. With that said...

    It is a fantastic idea, which IMO should be implemented, or at least attempted, as a new business model.


    WoW probably has the majority of revenue produced into profits. Their costs are not going to be as large a % as other MMORPG's given their massive subscriber base. The more popular the game is, the more money you make, and you don't always need additional employees simply because you have additional customers- especially dealing with virtual goods and a MMORPG. Server costs are next to nothing- don't be fooled, MMORPG's are INCREDIBLY profitable even when they are a failure with very few subscribers. Dead games like Dark Age of Camelot still probably profit EA in the millions per year, if not at least a single million. That game is next to dead. Notice that I said profit, not revenue. This would be after the non-existent server cost of DAoC and the low cost of the few employees still working on the game. I wouldn't be surprised that given DAoC's low requirements due to a dead playerbase, EA actually runs the servers for next to free, given that they have an incredibly large server database and a good deal with their bandwidth provider.


    IMAGE IF... WoW did this. Except, why would they?

    Imagine if WoW used a ton of money to push out more content. With the amount of profit they make, they could easily make that content produced daily after working on it for a bit (to catch up and get ahead of the curve).

    In a business sense, it wouldn't make any sense. In fact, WoW doesn't release expansions very quickly at all for the very reason of there being only ONE reason to release content (a dying playerbase) and one HUGE reason to never change a thing: WoW is already successful. Releasing ANY content has a big potential to cause players to leave, and very little potential to increase profits. It's so successful, screwing it up (UO Trammel, SWG fiasco, etc.) would be the biggest business failure in the history of gaming.

    However, there is a big incentive to produce content daily and make your game better by hiring a lot of quality employees in an organized fashion. The better your game, the more content, and the fact you release patches nearly instantly compared to rarely, would make the game very high quality. A high quality game would see increase sales and a reduction in subscriber loss. The only business aspect about it is, "Is it worth it?" Are the cost of making the game better less than the profit of increased sales? Most likely it isn't, because of factors like a cap on the increase you'll see with fast content updates.  I however believe it would be beneficial in the long run and would definitely be profitable if you found a balance, such as WEEKLY updates or simply hiring more artists, writers, or coders.

     

    More Employees = A Better Game
    More programmers to fix bugs, add small features, and work with artists to polish the GUI or provide optional GUI choices.
    More artists to make graphics better, add optional graphic models (EQ2 optional models, LoL skins), fill the world, work with coders to update the engine.
    More writers and level designers to add in more content, ditch crappy content, and listen to the playerbase.
    Better community managers, in-game activities, and GM events. Better/faster customer service, more security coders to get cheaters, etc.

    If I were to ever make a game, I would hope to stick to my vision that profits aren't everything: making a high quality game is more important than profit.

  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,908Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by TsaboHavoc
    Originally posted by ObiClownobi
    Depends, are they EA employees?

     

    lol if so, water and bread are not expensive, nor the dark dungeons to shelter them.

     

    You guys are cruel. :)

     

    LOL, they do have their moments.

     


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now turned Amateur Game Developer.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  Realm Lords 2 on MMORPG.com
  • BigAndShinyBigAndShiny LondonPosts: 176Member

    Blizzard currently has ~160 devs on WoW.  They could easily have 1600 and still make a huge profit.  

    They could release an expansion for World of Warcraft every two and a half months, release a zone, three raids, five instances every month if they wanted to, and still be making hundreds of millions of dollars a year.  

     

    But they don't.   TOR wanted to do this.  They had 500 devs at launch.  But unlike Blizzard, they had the opposite problem.  they couldn't afford to keep the devs, so they had to fire them. 

  • LeegOfChldrnLeegOfChldrn Jcakson, MSPosts: 364Member

    Loktofelt listed,

    - Perceived favoritism

    - Covering prime hours for all regions

    - Negatively impacting players that are not involved (collateral damage)

     

    LOL, these aren't real problems. You will not see a loss in sales for a business adding in a great feature like GM events. People do not complain so much that they hate it when a business gives out "Free Icecream from 5pm to 7pm" every Tuesday.

    People do not say, "You know that company that gives out 1000 free hamburgers every Tuesday at 3pm? I can't ever make that. I refuse to buy their hamburgers."

    People do not say, "I am a Hulu subscriber, and I am unsubscribing because Hulu is allowing us to watch newly released movies every Monday at 5pm, and I can never make it in time to watch the full episode."

     

    Loktofelt must be out of touch with reality to think that these are flaws in the idea of a GM event system. I literally have to refrain from insults, because I cannot believe this was even suggested as a flaw...lmao...

  • DisdenaDisdena Troy, NYPosts: 1,093Member

    As someone who ran GM/Guide events in EQ, I can vouch for what Loktofeit was saying. It is incredibly difficult to get such an event to run smoothly in the first place—no technical mishaps, no griefers or spammers trying to sabotage it—and even when you do, very few people get the experience that you were shooting for, and the majority walk away confused and/or disappointed. It is not a stretch to say that a good number of player have a more negative than positive experience with those kind of events.

    On the topic of putting 1000 devs on a game in order to constantly update it, I will say only this. Despite what you might think, a rather small minority of players experience endgame content. Even in WoW, which has been out since the 1960s or so, only a small fraction of the players currently playing have consumed all the content that the game has to offer. If you factor in all the people who have ever played the game since its release, the number of people who finished everything are the figurative drop in a 50-gallon bucket.

    Hiring hundreds of content creators to churn out new items, dungeons, and abilities would only serve the interests of these people who surge to the very front of the pack to take on every last challenge that the game has to offer. To the rest of us, what good is an expansion's worth of content every week if we only put in 10-20 hours in a week? The overwhelming majority of players don't suffer from a lack of content, so everything that those 1000 people crank out would go to waste.

    image
  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,192Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by sagil

    I'd just like to know if it's possible this can be done now or in the future. With money cost, organizing, etc..

    To be more clear maybe... is it like having builders working on a wonder building?

     

    I'd imagine this might work for mmos... but single player games are just a once a day or week marathon. Mmos however can last 10 years or more, which WoW proves.

    You should read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mythical_Man-Month if you're really interested in the topic.  And the answer is no, adding more people doesn't make it go faster.  There is a bell like curve based on several complex factors that should be considered when assembling a team.

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,255Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Eir_S
    After SWTOR, what company would risk this kind of venture?

    most of that went to Voice Overs from what I hear. That was a huge novice MMO developer mistake on Bioware part to make a MMO based on Story being the most important part even over gameplay.

    I believe other developers shouldnt get that same kind of argument, because of what Bioware did. They believed that MMO gamers really were similar to Singleplayer RPG gamers. Two different mindsets. They may not have known that...

    image

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