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tab-combat or action combat?

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  • AIMonsterAIMonster Apopka, FLPosts: 2,059Member
    Originally posted by Nemesis7884

    gw2 is in my opinion also tab target combat, just packaged in a more interesting way...but it still gets old, fast

    i might be wrong but my understanding and whhttp://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/719/view/forums/post/5481593/postAction/editat i mean is

    tab target combat = target locks, attacks follow and hit you, evasion is at best a dice throw, no skill shots, no active dodging, auto lock on targets, combat rotations etc. etc.

    action combat is skill shot based with actively aiming and dodging - yeah gw2 has some kind of dodge, imo it is still rather tab target combat since you dont have to aim and shots hit follow you automatically

     

    Going a little off topic here, but:

    By your definition GW2 actually does not have "tab targetting combat".

    Attacks do not follow you.  This is one of the downsides of high range / slow projectile weapons like Elementalist's Staff Fireball and Ranger Longbow and Shortbow.  Simply strafing from far range will avoid the majority of the attacks damage even with the projectile speed buffs in the last patch.  You can also easily get out of range of a projectile or obstruct it when it's mid flight.  You can also block projectiles aimed at others by standing in the path of it or using absorption / reflect skills.

    Evasion is not a dice roll either.  You have the dodge which will evade all damage during it's animation and the only other way to make an enemy outright miss an attack that would have normally hit is through the blind condition.  There are no dice roll misses in GW2.

    No skill shots?  While there are no direct damage skill shots in the game there are plenty of ground targetted AoEs, and it's possible to play a Grenade Engineer and essentially play a class based slowly on "skill shots".  Considering the travel time of grenades and the high mobility of professions in GW2 it's very difficult and requires a lot of skill to play against moving targets as a Grenade Kit Engineer (in PvP).

    There are also no set combat rotations in GW2, advanced play pretty much requires you to use skills and dodge at the appropriate time.  Trying to create a set rotation in GW2 might work in solo PvE, but it would be highly ineffective any PvP mode and high level group PvE.

    Still, by definition GW2 is a tab targetting MMO because it has direct targetting with the tab key.  There really isn't anything more to the definition than that.  GW2 is also an action oriented combat MMO too, it can be both.

    On topic:

    I'm also a bit upset that Pathfinder Online seems to be going with a slower paced more traditional MMO combat system, albeit with a few changes here and there.  Slower paced isn't necessarily bad (I enjoyed Pirates 101 tactics esque combat system), but the combat doesn't seem to be radically different from what we've been seeing in MMOs until all but recently, and I'm frankly just sick of that style of combat.  I'm still keeping watch on the game as there are a lot of features that sound like they might be pretty neat (I even backed the Kickstarter), but the combat right now is a huge deterent to me at least with the current information about it out there.

    image

    Raptr link because it's the cool new trend:
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  • MumboJumboMumboJumbo LondonPosts: 3,221Member
    Originally posted by Nemesis7884

    -snip-

    regarding archeage, i have a friend who was in beta 4 and 5, i played a little, i can tell you a few things

    - the combat system is very very classic tab targeting - aka world of warcraft style

    - the skill system is interesting as it lets you choose several decks (3) to select skills from, so its somewhat open

    - all the open world features such as housing are highly exaggerated in the sense that i think people believe its way better than it actually is...cause you got just fields with a bazillion of the same small houses on them...so...

    - there are some neat features to the game, sea fights etc. are great and everything...i just think a open world pvp system NEEDS a good engaging combat system more than anything else...i have the same issue with archeage that i had with tsw - fantastic game but really boring boring combat system...cause after a pretty short time (shorter than many people believe) you will have seen all the open world features in archeage, and what stays is the pvp combat...and that simply isnt that good...darkfall for example was way better in that regard (but worse with most other things)

    so i guess it depends what youre looking for...i either know people that think archeage is really boring or fantastic, im rather in the first group...i think if you like a game like darkfall, you will not like archeage and if youre rather the "slow builder" type of player who likes eve or likes games like 4x games (that might sound weird), you will like archeage...because its more about exploring and building than fast combat...

    but for me, the combat is just not engaging enough that i would want to heavily inves time into the game...besides the fact that there are some serious community issues in the game

    *** i also got this response from goblin works:

    Hi Nemisis7884,

    For a lot of reasons, the combat system will not be player-twitch-skill based. It will be more complex than target - hit macros, but you won't be aiming.

    whatever the reasons are...not going to be my game than, this type of combat is just to boring for me...but everyone else, i hope the project is a success and youre having fun

    Thanks a lot for your impressions of AA's combat. Think I agree with you on that. But I don't agree that it's a black and white Twitch = good, Tab-target = bad dichotomy. Perhaps what we've had of Tab-target:

    1. Too stale by now

    2. Too similar to other combat systems

    3. IMO: Neither that strategic nor that dynamic.

    =

    I'm fine with pathfinder online not being twitch and if it's got a lot of strategy/depth to it, it will be a better combat than a mmo-twitch also I hazard saying. 1. Tons and tons of contexts 2. Personally slowing combat down so thinking time can be had 3. Body target in the UI for decision-making strategy eg block-avoid-damage-disable-counter etc... But I will be disappointed if the combat is tab-target and feels identical to other tab-target mmorpgs. No question.

     

    Originally posted by Scalpless

    Of course, for a game based on D&D, dice rolls are an expected "feature" and I'm sure they'd piss some members of their target audience off if they made this game too twitch-focused.

    Exactly, as that link I provided above for DPS - complex and interesting and different appeals to these "members". And I agree with that.

    Originally posted by Magnum2103

    I'm also a bit upset that Pathfinder Online seems to be going with a slower paced more traditional MMO combat system, albeit with a few changes here and there.  Slower paced isn't necessarily bad (I enjoyed Pirates 101 tactics esque combat system), but the combat doesn't seem to be radically different from what we've been seeing in MMOs until all but recently, and I'm frankly just sick of that style of combat.  I'm still keeping watch on the game as there are a lot of features that sound like they might be pretty neat (I even backed the Kickstarter), but the combat right now is a huge deterent to me at least with the current information about it out there.

     Yes, on balance the spread of features is impressive. Combat if good would a jewel in the crown - is the context I see it. But agree with highlighted vehemently.

  • Silverthorn8Silverthorn8 LondonPosts: 489Member Uncommon

    I'd be more inclined to consider the game's turn-based origin. I mean the classic  neverwinter nights (bioware's version) used a straight forward point and click auto attack, with a hot bar for spells.

    Maybe some kind of hybrid function between tab target and point and click would work. At the end of the day it's the spells/abilities/feats/skills of your character that count, not how targetting is handled.

    The key point here is the turn based aspect, plus add in the demographic the title is going to appeal to (I'm fairly sure it isn't going to appeal to the twitch-brigade).

     

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Boca Raton, FLPosts: 4,523Member Uncommon
    Looks to me like they are trying to create a game based on the Pathfinder RPG... and I honestly do not think twitch combat has a place in such a game.  RPGs are about your character's abilities not your bunnyhop skills.  Those games have a place, but this is not one of those..

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

  • torque12torque12 Ithaca, NYPosts: 1Member
    I hope they take some inspirations from Dark Souls. Not the parry/dodge twitchy aspects, but stamina and blocking system.
  • BlueMountainBlueMountain Philadelphia, PAPosts: 147Member
    Originally posted by Nemesis7884

    and i just lost interest...any mmo that will come out in the future with tab target combat will fail...its as easy as that...times have changed and we have all seen that and done that...we can just play wow which is exactly that and has a bazillion of content...yeah its not sandbox, but we got darkfall and eve for that...

     

    no action combat, no future

    The question is being argued out in the GW section of the paizo forums.

     

    Two days and 144 posts later it is still raging over there. The head honcho is of the opinion that 'tab targetting has been done to death', so maybe there is reason to hope.

    Right now the discussion is mostly about projectile fire and how the target is in motion so you should have to lead your target.

    To dream, perhaps to be.

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Boca Raton, FLPosts: 4,523Member Uncommon

    One big server like Eve...  I think having to lead a target would just have all kinds of latency issues.

     

    They should just keep it simple.. and deliver what they say.  Don't bite off too much. 

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

  • MumboJumboMumboJumbo LondonPosts: 3,221Member
    Originally posted by torque12
    I hope they take some inspirations from Dark Souls. Not the parry/dodge twitchy aspects, but stamina and blocking system.

    I've heard that is good, They have design for a stamina system: A Three-Headed Hydra > Stamina and Refresh

  • BlueMountainBlueMountain Philadelphia, PAPosts: 147Member

    I think you could approach targetting rather differently than is common, even using traditional tab or auto target acquisition methodologies.

    When the player focuses on a target, instead of making all attacks strike that target alone no matter the actual facing of the character, you might just build it so that the character is always facing the target at the distance optimal to the weaponry being used (in the case of melee, or within optimal range for projectile weaponry or ranged spellcasting. Proximity-based spells should be treated as melee weaponry. The player could manually dodge back out of optimal range but would stride back asap. A lateral dodge would still describe are arc around the target, and a strafe would also arc around the target while keeping the autofacing orientation unless the player specifically used, say, the right&ctrl key to suspend autofacing.

    Character collisions should be effective, such that if I try to doge laterally but another player, monster, or wall is in the way I would not dodge effectively. I would be blocked from that dodge attempt.

    The damage, in the case of melee, should depend on attack type: slashes/bashes are a local cone damage. Thrusts should be target-specific, but may inadvertantly strike anyone jumping into the way.

    Pole arms would target similarly, but with a longer arc or range.

    Any thoughts?

    To dream, perhaps to be.

  • GrumpyMel2GrumpyMel2 Catskills, NYPosts: 1,832Member

    There are combat systems where the challenge comes from the players ability to manipulate the interface....

    .... and there are game systems whether the challenge comes from the players ability to make good decisions...

     

    PFO is aiming for (and hopefully will achieve) the latter. Which is something I support and something which is in better keeping with the spirit of the PnP ruleset which it is based upon.

    Tab-Targeting is simply a descriptive of the type of GUI that would be utilized, it isn't descriptive of how interesting/uninteresting the combat system may be. Heck it isn't even neccesarly descriptive of how "action-y" a game might be.

    Ultimately there are alot of different factors that go into whether a combat system is decent or not.

    I've played FPS style games...I enjoy them.

    I've played Mount & Blade and I enjoyed it.

    I've played Skyrim and enjoyed it.

    But I'm definately looking forward to PFO having a more tactical then action-based combat system.

  • BlueMountainBlueMountain Philadelphia, PAPosts: 147Member

    From Goblinworks:

    "We're working on a Stamina system that somewhat mimics the rounds of the Pathfinder RPG. Every six seconds, players will receive a pool of points they'll be able to spend taking various actions, breaking down combat into a number of tactical decisions.

    Players who plan out their attacks to maximize their abilities in terms of Stamina will be better off than those who rely on straight speed to spam abilities as quickly as possible. The "planning player" will end each six second interval with no excess Stamina, while the "spamming player" will end up with unused points in their pool."

     

    To dream, perhaps to be.

  • AzrileAzrile Houston, MDPosts: 2,582Member
    Originally posted by Nemesis7884

    devs see all these same same mmos fail and what do they do? come up with the exact same shit...

    how was that again, the definition of insanitys is doing the same things over and over again and expecting different results...

    Not sure I follow you... if there have been two successful MMOs, it would be WOW and EVE..  and even Eve has basically tab targeting.  You also have games like AOC (which failed) that has a hybrid system.

    As many clicky  MMO´s have failed as have tab MMOs.   and the two most successful have tab-targeting.  you lose your argument.

  • AzrileAzrile Houston, MDPosts: 2,582Member
    Originally posted by BlueMountain

    From Goblinworks:

    "We're working on a Stamina system that somewhat mimics the rounds of the Pathfinder RPG. Every six seconds, players will receive a pool of points they'll be able to spend taking various actions, breaking down combat into a number of tactical decisions.

    Players who plan out their attacks to maximize their abilities in terms of Stamina will be better off than those who rely on straight speed to spam abilities as quickly as possible. The "planning player" will end each six second interval with no excess Stamina, while the "spamming player" will end up with unused points in their pool."

     

    I read that and it sounds really cool.  Not sure where it falls into this discussion.   I think most people see the difference between tab and action-style being simple  ´ can I use my characters movement to avoid attacks´.. or is the ´to hit´ part of combat completely controlled by a dice roll.

    How you actually generate your attacks isn´t pertinant.  Some of the classes in Diablo have exactly the stamina system and it is an action game.   A lot of specs in WOW have a similar system (hunters, rogues) and it is very definitely a tab game.

  • Crunchy222Crunchy222 new york, ILPosts: 386Member

    I like both.  Tab target allows for more thought to go into the skills used, Action based aim targeting more of your focus is keeping crosshairs on the target.

     

    I like both.  But to be honest, i want both.

     

    Tera kind of did this where it was free look aim, but once you aimed near a target, it kind of became tabbed. Unless im completely forgetting how it worked.

     

    Either way ill support the game.  A game like this is content over cheap actiony feel.  If it goes player aimed combat, thats fine...just be careful with it, i dont want some damn quake style combat...

    Also, air target combat brings in TONS of FPS players who hate RPG's.  Youll get lots of post stating that pvp should be "skill based and fair" and petitions to remove progression and any form of combat that isnt 10% fair and predictable...just sayin...

     

    I prefer my combat to be a bit more stategic, kinda like EVE, but with actual movement and land objects/LOS and stuff like that. If i want a pure action game ill go play one that will do it better than any mmo can do.  

     

    Keep it strategy based combat, make it fun, hell give us free look camera and semi-aim targeting.  Dont go full retard with FPS combat.

  • AvsRock21AvsRock21 Denver, COPosts: 256Member

    Some of you are acting like action based combat is better than tab target, or that action based combat is the next evolutionary step for mmorpgs. Neither of those ideas are true. Tab targeting games and action based games are just two different types of games. Some people prefer a more strategical, chess-like experience in their mmorpgs and therefore they prefer tab targeting. Others want a reflex and twitch based action game. Some people want their twitch 'skills' to determine if they hit their target, while others want their attributes to determine their effectiveness. You can't just say that one is better than the other... I like both. I get the itch for both types of games and if there were only 'action' based mmorpgs, that would suck. 

  • strangiato2112strangiato2112 Richmond, VAPosts: 1,538Member Common
    Originally posted by AvsRock21

    Some of you are acting like action based combat is better than tab target, or that action based combat is the next evolutionary step for mmorpgs. Neither of those ideas are true. Tab targeting games and action based games are just two different types of games. Some people prefer a more strategical, chess-like experience in their mmorpgs and therefore they prefer tab targeting. Others want a reflex and twitch based action game. Some people want their twitch 'skills' to determine if they hit their target, while others want their attributes to determine their effectiveness. You can't just say that one is better than the other... I like both. I get the itch for both types of games and if there was only 'action' based mmorpgs, that would suck. 

    Its actually laughable that people consider action MMORPGs the future.  Attribute based combat is the very core of the genre.  Twitch has its place as an offshoot, but I really dont think it meshes well with the genre.  MMORPGs are typically played for long stretches of time, couple hours or more.  At that point twitch becomes far more repetitive and tedious than the more startegic variant.

     

    The worst of both worlds though is the GCDfest games we are inundated with.  They are overly busy and while usually need good decison making to excel at, it just gets tedious over time when you click an ability every 1.5 seconds.

    Rift is by far the biggest offender of this, but there are many bad offenders.

  • I was very interested in this game because i like sandboxes, but i read that the combat will probably be the same wow TAB-RNG targeting crap so i lose a large amount of interest.

    I personally think that TAB targeting games are the past and not the future, TAB, 1,2,3,4,5,6, and repeat is a stupid and brainless gameplay. At least they can go with a system like GW2 with autotargeting.

    But a thing is for sure, if they go for the classic RNG TAB,1,2,3 i will 100% not play this game, and this is the main reason i didn't partecipated in kickstarter.
    I will never support mmorpgs and companies that use an outdated and lazy combat, we are in 2013 with ADSL and optical fiber, is time for an innovation, is time to leave the stagnation to the past.
    I want true player skills, dodge, dash and use the terrain to hide myself, just spamming buttons in front of each other is just....ridiculous and belong to delusional games like wow and clones.

    If games likes Darkfall, Tera, Raiderz, Blade & Soul (and in part GW2) can do this without any issue i don't see how Goblinworks can't do the same, or at least try to make an hybrid a la GW2.
    If they can't then it mean they lack experience and network coding.

    Is not a matter of lag and bandwidth, because the games i mentioned before can handle tons of massive players in the same area without any evident server lag (graphic lag is another matter but fixable with lowering video settings).
    I was partecipating in Darkfall sieges in the past, early 2009, no lags and they use a pure FPS action combat and was only 2009, now we are in 2013.

    I tend to not trust companies when they claim that the actual technology isn't enought, these games prove the countrary so is a blatant lie to cover the lacks of experience.

    I pass for now, at least till i see an actual 100% game footage where i can taste their combat system and how it work. But as i said before if they go with RNG TAB,1,2,3,4,5,6 i will never touch their game.

    ps: For the same reason i will never play ArcheAge too.

  • MumboJumboMumboJumbo LondonPosts: 3,221Member
    Originally posted by kdchan

    I was very interested in this game because i like sandboxes, but i read that the combat will probably be the same wow TAB-RNG targeting crap so i lose a large amount of interest.

    I personally think that TAB targeting games are the past and not the future, TAB, 1,2,3,4,5,6, and repeat is a stupid and brainless gameplay. At least they can go with a system like GW2 with autotargeting.

    But a thing is for sure, if they go for the classic RNG TAB,1,2,3 i will 100% not play this game, and this is the main reason i didn't partecipated in kickstarter.
    I will never support mmorpgs and companies that use an outdated and lazy combat, we are in 2013 with ADSL and optical fiber, is time for an innovation, is time to leave the stagnation to the past.
    I want true player skills, dodge, dash and use the terrain to hide myself, just spamming buttons in front of each other is just....ridiculous and belong to delusional games like wow and clones.

    If games likes Darkfall, Tera, Raiderz, Blade & Soul (and in part GW2) can do this without any issue i don't see how Goblinworks can't do the same, or at least try to make an hybrid a la GW2.
    If they can't then it mean they lack experience and network coding.

    Is not a matter of lag and bandwidth, because the games i mentioned before can handle tons of massive players in the same area without any evident server lag (graphic lag is another matter but fixable with lowering video settings).
    I was partecipating in Darkfall sieges in the past, early 2009, no lags and they use a pure FPS action combat and was only 2009, now we are in 2013.

    I tend to not trust companies when they claim that the actual technology isn't enought, these games prove the countrary so is a blatant lie to cover the lacks of experience.

    I pass for now, at least till i see an actual 100% game footage where i can taste their combat system and how it work. But as i said before if they go with RNG TAB,1,2,3,4,5,6 i will never touch their game.

    ps: For the same reason i will never play ArcheAge too.

    Some great stuff to ponder here. There's a huge range of factors that are input into the design of the combat, from what market of players you are aiming for, to how much emphasis you want/need combat to be and as above tech considerations and UI etc.

    I'm equally disinterested in the ye samey olde tab-target. I think GW2 did some interesting things to make combat more actiony/dynamic. But I also think PFO can actually go the other way and make combat slower and more tactical. That would be equally good to see imo. How? No idea.

  • azmundaiazmundai St Louis, MOPosts: 1,417Member


    Originally posted by Nemesis7884
    and i just lost interest...any mmo that will come out in the future with tab target combat will fail...its as easy as that...times have changed and we have all seen that and done that...we can just play wow which is exactly that and has a bazillion of content...yeah its not sandbox, but we got darkfall and eve for that... no action combat, no future

    funny, I feel the same way, only I feel any Tera style mmo release in the future will fail. horrible, boring and repetitive mechanic. adds nothing to the genre imo.

    LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
    I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already :)

  • NiburuNiburu BerlinPosts: 378Member Uncommon
    how can idelete post
  • tyfontyfon OSLOPosts: 238Member
    Originally posted by Nemesis7884

    and i just lost interest...any mmo that will come out in the future with tab target combat will fail...its as easy as that...times have changed and we have all seen that and done that...we can just play wow which is exactly that and has a bazillion of content...yeah its not sandbox, but we got darkfall and eve for that...

     

    no action combat, no future

    For me it's the opposite. I need a non-twich targeting system since I am no longer 18 with lightning reflexes. I'm also suffering from CTS and havint to use the mouse all the time can be painfull. I'm also struggeling with games where you clickmove like Titan Quest and Diablo. In any case the latency in MMOs are never high enough to enable FPS style targeting properly. It was one of the reasons I thought TERA sucked (except for the bad quests).

    RPGs has always been about the numbers and systems for me too, not who has the fastest mouse hand. 

     

     

    EDIT: I'm not really fond of the tabbing mechanic, but most new games have auto target selection anyway. However a working tab functionallity is also nice as an addition. Most games handle this hybrid, the only one I can think of that fails horribly in this is GW2 where tabbing often gives you the target furthest away.

  • strangiato2112strangiato2112 Richmond, VAPosts: 1,538Member Common
    Originally posted by MumboJumbo
     But I also think PFO can actually go the other way and make combat slower and more tactical. That would be equally good to see imo. How? No idea.

    This would be the smarter move.  The action combat crowd really isnt that big, its the 'wanting something different crowd' thats big.  As Ive said, its not the tab targeting thats the issue, its the gcd spam system thats the issue.

    No game is as simple as 1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4.  If anyone thinks that then they are awful at games.  But it does become quite often a click...click...click...click...click...click...click... rhythm which just fees mindless.  Oh sure, theres the occasional off gcd interrupt or chain attack to toss in, but its mostly just pressing a key every 1.5 seconds.

    More strategic combat satisfies the people that want a change but doesnt alienate the RPG crowd with unwanted twitch.

  • SlampigSlampig Chantilly, VAPosts: 2,376Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nemesis7884

    and i just lost interest...any mmo that will come out in the future with tab target combat will fail...its as easy as that...times have changed and we have all seen that and done that...we can just play wow which is exactly that and has a bazillion of content...yeah its not sandbox, but we got darkfall and eve for that...

     

    no action combat, no future

    Because Tera is such HUGE success...image

    That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!

  • PocahinhaPocahinha cidadePosts: 550Member
    Originally posted by Nemesis7884

    and i just lost interest...any mmo that will come out in the future with tab target combat will fail...its as easy as that...times have changed and we have all seen that and done that...we can just play wow which is exactly that and has a bazillion of content...yeah its not sandbox, but we got darkfall and eve for that...

     

    no action combat, no future

    In my opinion and from millions of mmorpg players...tab target combat in an mmorpg is the way we like it, i tried both and really dislike action combat like tera, gw2 is nice but tab combat is my favorite....ofcorse it must be made perfect like wow did...not like swtor and other crap.

  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHPosts: 3,058Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nemesis7884

    and i just lost interest...any mmo that will come out in the future with tab target combat will fail...its as easy as that...times have changed and we have all seen that and done that...we can just play wow which is exactly that and has a bazillion of content...yeah its not sandbox, but we got darkfall and eve for that...

     

    no action combat, no future

    While I don't express the same views I can echo the sentiment. 

     

    It's not out of the realm of impossiblity to implement some sort of fast action style combat with active dodge or blocking and tactical skillful combat.  It doesn't necessarily need to be reticule based action combat like Tera but it needs to be something mnore innovative other then the bland and boring tab target WoW combat.  Standing face to face trading blows with mobs has got to be the worst possible implementation of a combat system in all of history.

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

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