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What the hell is going on with the anti holy trinity lately

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  • Ramonski7Ramonski7 Aurora, ILPosts: 2,656Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Khelden

    When I read they were going to release an elder scroll online, I thought it was a great idea...

     

    Now, reading a bit on the left and right, I came to learn that the game WON'T have an aggro system. Seriously, after GW2 failfest I don't understand why company still try to go that way. Even in GW2 high end players were recreating a holy trinity by using game gimmicks, which was far from being fun let me add.

     

    Being a tank in every game that I play (single player too when I can...), this is simply a big fun killer for me. The holy trinity is nothing but efficient tactic.

     

    I don't know, make the game not REQUIRE holy trinity, why not give it a try... But simply DENYING this aspect by not having aggro system at all is just wrong from my point of view.

     

    I will probably try the game nonetheless, but my hopes for this game went from high to underground with this.

     

    Sources:

     

    http://www.elderscrollsguides.com/the-elder-scrolls-online-leaked-info-so-far/

    http://www.rpgamer.com/news/Q4-2012/102212a.html

    The trinity and aggro system will slowly work it's way out of mmos. As time goes on and AI gets better do you really think AI controlled mobs and bosses should be responding the same stupid way they have been for 10, 20, 30 years? Eventually it will get to the point of AI approaching human like levels. So boss and mobs fight will be like PvP rather than drone like PvE battles like it is now. Can you imagine if we built our computers to stay dumb, or playing Chessmaster 3000 at a sub kindergarten level all the time? Do you guys really think that mmos should be made that way forever?

     

    I hear all this smack talk about challenge but ooooh no don't take away our retarded ass handicap in the process. But we want to be challenged! OOOOh but don't make the raid boss actually think with any real intelligence! Ask anyone here if they got the chance to play the role of a raid boss who would they kill first? Only the dense ones would attack the guy with the most hp and the thickest armor first. As other genres constantly improve AI ememies, we are stuck in this rut of trying to keep them dumb but pretty. Yeaaah don't make'em too smart, we don't want them actually winning now do we?

     

    Time to pick guys challenge or tradition? You can't have it both ways...

    image
    "Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."

  • AllymishkaAllymishka SydneyPosts: 11Member
    Oh one last thing re the "artifical taunt" if a caster can be firing off fireballs and a necro can be summoning pets why is it so far fetched for a tank to be using a taunt which is not a rude word or hand signal but fancy named spell which draws the attention of the mob for a given duration?
  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Khelden

    When I read they were going to release an elder scroll online, I thought it was a great idea...

    Well, just recently it became a popular marketing bullet.

    Makes sense, if you're tired of clones of ThatGame or you remember games that had more than three basic (yawn) roles.

     

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • Crunchy222Crunchy222 new york, ILPosts: 386Member

    People incoorectly blame the "holy trinity" as the reason their endgame sucks.  The real reason, imo, is that people have been doing the whole raid tier for loot thing and instance pvp deathmatches long enough.  The trinity shouldnt be a trinity, it was more fun when you needed 6-8 unique roles in order to do it right, not a tank, a healer and two DPS...which is boring.

    I think the real issue is both the type of endgame in PVE (raids) and the type of pvp in endgame (instanced death match, CTF style, hold point ect)  Its no easy task to create fair and balanced characters in pvp and then have those same characters fit as a cog in a dungeon machine.

     

    Also..

     

    Healing and tanking take a brain, thick skin in case things go wrong (its your fault) and an attention span.  The three qualities have become harder and harder to find.  People these days want the "best" pvp class, the class that kills the fastest and easiest, the class that requires the least amount of brainpower to result in the most amount of kills.

    This is why GW2 did away with it all, and turned everyone into the same range/melee DPS character with support. They also took out meaningful progression.  Aimed squarely at the above mentioned crowd that wants an action game.

     

    So people assume that the issue is that tanks and heals exist.  The issue is that endgame is the same shit weve been playing since everquest and DAOC.  Its gotten old.  Few want to deal with the effort required to hold aggro correctly and keep the group alive, and when its too easy for all it becomes even more boring...however few want a challange, they want to clear content while facebooking and watching tv...its impossible...so it gets removed/ people dont want it.

     

    Its odd that sandbox games dont have these issues, so long as they have clan vs clan warfare, better if it involves bases that the clan can build themselves, even more so with full loot.  The endgame becomes political and never ending.  Ask people who have been playing eve for nearly a decade what its like to be in a game with no endgame because its a sandbox.

    That style of sandbox needs to come into mmorpgs and fast.  As for the holy trinity, when done right its fantastic.  You just cant have DPS being raw DPS, they need to be support and DPS, you get the only DPS rouges and mages and its the only thing people will play.  Such a character needs to not be able to solo as to require support and return support. This wont happen in the "everything must be soloable" game era.

    Play a game with no holy trinity, and it quickly becomes dry and boring, granted theres not full loot, terraformed/constructed bases at risk, and no lame pretend factional divide that tells you who the enemies have to be.  You put stuff at risk, put in some politics, and add teamwork and the endgame never gets dull and you dont need raids or instanced pvp to crutch on, no need for the trinity either.

    Just sayin....

     

    That or..*gasp*... developers could actually do something innovative, unique, or groundbreaking...since those words are used to describe ever damn lame game to come out in the last 5 years...why not actually do it and make something new for once?

     

    EDIT: typed too much, not correcting spelling, why wont this site support spellcheck?

  • ibn_Cartwellibn_Cartwell Northwest, MTPosts: 47Member
    Originally posted by Allymishka
    Oh one last thing re the "artifical taunt" if a caster can be firing off fireballs and a necro can be summoning pets why is it so far fetched for a tank to be using a taunt which is not a rude word or hand signal but fancy named spell which draws the attention of the mob for a given duration?

    Because generally this would only work on certain monsters, you can yell your momma jokes at an undead attacking your healer all you want, but I dont think its gonna change whats on his mind, BRAINZ!!

     

    Aggro needs to be implemented correctly and realistically!!

  • jinxxed0jinxxed0 columbia, SCPosts: 838Member

    That's just one reason this game will fail. It'll get a lot of sales sure. But it's just going fail for the same reasons SWTOR failed. I think the game will do a little better though and should do better than GW2 because of the server splitting up people by having a server for solo players who must not know single player games exist and another server for people who want to team. That's the only thing they're doing right. Seriously, making this game another generic thempark with the brand name on it is just stupid. Have they not seen what's happened to all these other games? It's time to take risks and make something good. Make a world our characters live in. Not a cheap gimmick people will play for a few weeks, hit max level, and complain

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by ibn_Cartwell
    Aggro needs to be implemented correctly and realistically!!
     

    You are waving goodbye to one of the Two Standard Answers to "What to do with capped and bored players?", you know.

    = (presumably) half of your paying customers.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • AllymishkaAllymishka SydneyPosts: 11Member
    Originally posted by ibn_Cartwell
    Originally posted by Allymishka
    Oh one last thing re the "artifical taunt" if a caster can be firing off fireballs and a necro can be summoning pets why is it so far fetched for a tank to be using a taunt which is not a rude word or hand signal but fancy named spell which draws the attention of the mob for a given duration?

    Because generally this would only work on certain monsters, you can yell your momma jokes at an undead attacking your healer all you want, but I dont think its gonna change whats on his mind, BRAINZ!!

     

    Aggro needs to be implemented correctly and realistically!!

    Haha i like your response :) but you're asking for realism when attacking an undead creature?? :p

    So maybe give me a LURE OF DELICIOUS JUICY BRAINZ VIA TELEPATHY skill for those buggers.  Or maybe i could just unzip my head and show it to him as he runs past to attack the healer :p

    ps for all the people who get angrily excited about sillyness... my example was a joke

  • ibn_Cartwellibn_Cartwell Northwest, MTPosts: 47Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by ibn_Cartwell
    Aggro needs to be implemented correctly and realistically!!
     

    You are waving goodbye to one of the Two Standard Answers to "What to do with capped and bored players?", you know.

    = (presumably) half of your paying customers.

    I would think advanced AI would keep players entertained myself, but I might misinterpretting what you mean?

  • Eir_SEir_S Argyle, NYPosts: 4,623Member
    Originally posted by Allymishka
    Originally posted by Eir_S
    No, YOU feel no real sense of this.  I don't need a decade old mechanic to enjoy a game, a friend and I took turns getting within range of a champion mob and though it took 10 minutes, by doing so we were able to successfully manipulate the unique hate system in the game and take it down without having some kind of artificial taunt or mass heal.  If anything, I've never felt MORE important in a team.  There was no fake panic button to rely on, and I personally enjoy it.  I'll play a good trinity game again if one ever releases, but the break I'm taking with GW2 has been nothing short of a breath of fresh air.

    Its pretty obvious a huge amount of people have this feeling lol... Running in and out of range for 10 mins doesnt sound very exciting or interesting to me, it kinda makes me never want to play GW2 lol if thats what the going tactic is... the mechanics of the mob must be very umm..  dull.  And since when did a mass heal become a bad part of mmo wouldnt that be an indication that your in a tough encounter and having to work hard to win??  No lets have everyone heal themselves so we can just play a single player syle game with a bunch of clones next to us we dont have to think about...

    You realize almost every class in WoW for example, has ways to heal themselves if they need to.  I appreciated how difficult it was to fight elite mobs in WoW with a DK or a Warrior because they didn't have things like "Lay on Hands" (pally was still my fave class overall), but they did have ways to gain health back.  Like I said, a panic button is not my preference.  It's not a bad thing, it's just boring to me at this point.  Once you play something enough, you fall into two categories... either you're one of those people who can't live without it via familiarity or you're one of those people who welcomes a change.  Personally, I welcome the change that GW2 offers, that's all I'm saying.

    And yes, using actual mobility to survive an encounter instead of trading hits while standing still is the reason I'll never go back to WoW.  It would just put me to sleep.  Maybe there will be a happy medium someday, like TESO.  I'm just tired of standing still.

  • Eir_SEir_S Argyle, NYPosts: 4,623Member
    Originally posted by ace80k
    Originally posted by Eir_S
    Originally posted by ace80k

    As far as the trinity goes, the majority of MMO players actually enjoy playing some sort of group role. The GW2 experiment is proof of this. Customization is fine, give people the option to switch from healer to tank to dps, etc, but make the roles themselves actually mean something in the game world. Gear rewards are great, but people feel more rewarded by working successfully as a team. Without the holy trinity, you feel no real sense of this.

    No, YOU feel no real sense of this.  I don't need a decade old mechanic to enjoy a game, a friend and I took turns getting within range of a champion mob and though it took 10 minutes, by doing so we were able to successfully manipulate the unique hate system in the game and take it down without having some kind of artificial taunt or mass heal. 

    Sounds like an awfully epic encounter. Bravo. Try duoing Xegony from EQ1, scaled to an appropriate level, then get back to me. Sure the trinity is a dated mechanic, but I can assure you and anyone else bashing it..you are the minority. 

    Is sticking to old mechanics why absolutely no one complains daily on forums about the dry state of MMOs?

    Oh wait.....

  • WraithoneWraithone Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 3,593Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Allymishka
    Originally posted by Eir_S
    No, YOU feel no real sense of this.  I don't need a decade old mechanic to enjoy a game, a friend and I took turns getting within range of a champion mob and though it took 10 minutes, by doing so we were able to successfully manipulate the unique hate system in the game and take it down without having some kind of artificial taunt or mass heal.  If anything, I've never felt MORE important in a team.  There was no fake panic button to rely on, and I personally enjoy it.  I'll play a good trinity game again if one ever releases, but the break I'm taking with GW2 has been nothing short of a breath of fresh air.

    Its pretty obvious a huge amount of people have this feeling lol... Running in and out of range for 10 mins doesnt sound very exciting or interesting to me, it kinda makes me never want to play GW2 lol if thats what the going tactic is... the mechanics of the mob must be very umm..  dull.  And since when did a mass heal become a bad part of mmo wouldnt that be an indication that your in a tough encounter and having to work hard to win??  No lets have everyone heal themselves so we can just play a single player syle game with a bunch of clones next to us we dont have to think about...

    I managed to get to level 60 (warrior) before I gave up on GW2.  I usually give a game to level cap, at least once (level 50 trooper/commando in SWTOR for example) before I make the decision to leave. But GW2 is just not my type of game. 

    They have tried so desperately to be different from WoW, that some of it amounts to cutting off ones nose, to spite ones face.  But some people like it. To each their own.

  • wowcloneswowclones Los Angeles, CAPosts: 127Member
    how many times have you been in a game looking for a healer or tank for hours, it sucks. devs realize this, so it's a good thing.
  • RamanadjinnRamanadjinn Huntsville, ALPosts: 1,365Member Uncommon

    As a pvp enthusiast, I shy away from any game that has the sort of extremely 1 dimensional class design that is commonly referred to as the trinity.

    I'm glad some people like it.  I'm also glad not every game has the same mechanics because I realize different people have different tastes.

    This is not a case of "one way is better than the other for everyone."  It never will be.

  • ZorgoZorgo Deepintheheartof, TXPosts: 2,226Member

    1. IMO, even though I'm not a huge fan of it, I hardly think you could call GW2 a 'failfest' as universally, it isn't considered that. Even if so, I'm not sure it's combat system would be the thing keeping folks from playing.

    2. TESO will have an aggro mechanic. This has been bandied about, and it is a mistatement. All games have an aggro mechanic. If a mob attacks you for a particular reason, you got aggro. If healers get hit for healing, that's an aggro mechanic. If mobs stay with the first target that hit them, that's its aggro mechanic. If the mob randomly bounces from player to player, that is its aggro mechanic. 

    It is more accurate to say TESO does not have the common trinity aggro mechanic.

    3. You're initial statement: The anti-holy trinity crusade is because the trinity has been implemented poorly, not because the system is bad.

  • Effin_RabbitEffin_Rabbit Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 773Member Uncommon
    Because playing scissor, paper, rock is boring no matter how graphically enhanced it is. Just my opinion, please dont leave a paper bag of burning poo on my door step.
  • steelheartxsteelheartx Biloxi, MSPosts: 432Member Uncommon

    Lack of a trinity may work (somewhat) in a group style setting, but it will not work in a raid setting.  Raids can be tedious enough for alot of players with agro/hate.  I can't imagine a raid not having it.

     

    That being said, i am looking forward to ESO and will hold off judgement untill i get to experience the mechanics myself.

    Looking for a family that you can game with for life? Check out Grievance at https://www.grievancegaming.org !

  • versulasversulas None of your damn business, WAPosts: 286Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Zorgo
    Originally posted by remyburke

    With no threat mechanics, it sounds more like healers will HAVE to be sneaky. lol

    This just can't be right - there must be something we aren't understanding.

    If a healer has to be 'sneaky' than that means something the healer does has to, by definition, draw threat; i.e. a healer has to be sneaky to avoid generating threat, ergo - there is a threat mechanic.

    Huh, that's kind of interesting. Should be a lot of pinballing the mobs back and forth like in EQ1.

    It also means that without threat, a healer can heal all day and so long as he doesn't hit any of the mobs he 'shouldn't' get aggro... There doesn't have to be taunts. So just have the rest of the group running through the dungeon/camp aoe'ing everything and a healer or two can just sit back and never worry about taking fire.

    I guess...

     

     

    Originally posted by tollbooth

    GW2 didn't get rid of the trinity.. all they did was make the current person getting hit the tank, and everyone the healer after that person goes into the down state.

    Instead of taking a sidestep in mechanics and trying something new they took a step backwards into a land that no game bothered implementing before because you could see it was fail before you even tried.

    Love this post XD

     

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    TESO does have trinity though, they are just doing away with the agro table / taunts etc..

    What I take from that is tanks will be the primary crowd controllers, which is good news if you want to pvp on a tank, you're still usefull.
  • AeonbladesAeonblades Home, GAPosts: 2,083Member
    I do hope they have a trinity and traditional aggro mechanics. Every game that doesn't do this, it has not turned out well. I will lose interest quickly in TESO if they do away with the traditional group. The idea of a traditional MMO in the Elder Scrolls universe appeals far more than a science experiment in MMORPG gaming habits.

    Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
    Have played: You name it
    If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    They do have trinity. They've stated this.

    I don't see why its an experiment though. games have had no agro table before - gw1, eve. Games have had entire encounters with no agro and taunt rules - war, Aoc. Lots of games also have encounters where bosses randomly switch agro - rift, tsw, even wow, probably more.

    It's entirely possible to tank without an agro table and taunts, providing they provide tanks with other tools to tank. E.g. tanks become primary cc not "wizards", you have collision detection and true line of sight / projectile paths, you have guard type abilities to take damage for other players, you have abilities where you raise your shield to block range attacks and it blocks for people stood behind you etc..

    And the good news is, all those abilities to tank pve are also useful for tanking pvp. Unlike + threat moves and taunts which are useless for pvp and force tanks into a constant cycle of respeccing if the want to do dungeons and pvp. Which means more tanks.
  • AeonbladesAeonblades Home, GAPosts: 2,083Member
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    They do have trinity. They've stated this.

    I don't see why its an experiment though. games have had no agro table before - gw1, eve. Games have had entire encounters with no agro and taunt rules - war, Aoc. Lots of games also have encounters where bosses randomly switch agro - rift, tsw, even wow, probably more.

    It's entirely possible to tank without an agro table and taunts, providing they provide tanks with other tools to tank. E.g. tanks become primary cc not "wizards", you have collision detection and true line of sight / projectile paths, you have guard type abilities to take damage for other players, you have abilities where you raise your shield to block range attacks and it blocks for people stood behind you etc..

    And the good news is, all those abilities to tank pve are also useful for tanking pvp. Unlike + threat moves and taunts which are useless for pvp and force tanks into a constant cycle of respeccing if the want to do dungeons and pvp. Which means more tanks.

    I dunno, I can see where you are coming from, but one encounter where aggro tables get wiped is a lot different from an entire game with no aggro tables. GW1 was...well. I played it for a month. Same for GW2, even though I knew better from 1. Randomly switching aggro is fine, as long as I can taunt it and snap it back to me or have some tool to take the brunt of the damage for my group.

    Eve I can't really compare to any other game, because most sci-fi mmo's fail almost immediately, and I really don't like keeping spreadsheets to play a game.

    Just make taunts reduce incoming damage in PvP, or add a PvP only stun/snare component too them. No more worries about tanks being useless in PvP. Deviating from the trinity is just dangerous and silly for the amount of money I imagine them pumping into this blockbuster game.

    Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
    Have played: You name it
    If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.

  • Eir_SEir_S Argyle, NYPosts: 4,623Member
    Originally posted by wowclones
    how many times have you been in a game looking for a healer or tank for hours, it sucks. devs realize this, so it's a good thing.

    Yep.  While some people seem to want a middle ground, what ANet did was a bold move that had the players' enjoyment in mind.  I wouldn't want to know the amount of hours I was actually waiting to have fun in other MMOs, because I think it would depress me lol

  • AllymishkaAllymishka SydneyPosts: 11Member
    I dont know what you guys do when your waiting for groups / tanks / healers etc, but when i ever was doing this I had a ton of fun cause thats when you find someone else waiting for a group make a great duo and go do some other content.  I guess this less fun these days cause all the content outside of a dungeon is usually for solo play which sucks for a duo working like a well oiled machine.  I hope they take a leaf out of EQ1's book and make most things almost too hard for a solo except in the starter zones. ( almost too hard with exception of the necro in eq1 of course) :p 
  • CelciusCelcius Franklin, TNPosts: 1,000Member Uncommon
    Threat management is an excuse for terrible gameplay. Basically, if your gameplay does not support active movement style combat tanks have to be put in place. Its the same reason that there are "rotations" in alot of hotkey style MMOs where you basically hit abilities in a certain order or dependant upon when you get a proc tries to make up for a lack of good gameplay.
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