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Space combat- a failure?

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  • mikahrmikahr ZagrebPosts: 1,066Member
    Originally posted by jtcgs
    Originally posted by mikahr

    Cantina is not playable content.

    And you are right, until they could provide proprt space experience they should not have released anything.

    OOH you almost got it.

    Cantina's were playable content in SWG just because they made it so you could get a buff in it by watching people dance. Amazing huh?

    THATS THE POINT. The game is missing so many things that if they had spent a lot of time making open space the game would be MISSING EVEN MORE of the little content it DOES have now!

    So, by making space the way they did, they did it the RIGHT WAY because it ADDS to the game by providing something that didnt take away from the rest of the game!

    AFKing in cantina to get buffs is also not playable content. So if they made you go into cantina every x hours, would that be so awesome somehow?

    Adding space combat as they did adds a bit over nothing which is proven by content usage. They had 2 much better options:

    a) until they could provide proper space experience scrap "space combat" altogether

    b) implement proper space experience

    Unfortunately they chose third and worst option, which has proven (as said many times before launch) very lackluster.

    And its not as its not a tradeoff - maybe it would miss some stuff (i think nobody would miss half of generic MMO quests) and instead of that they could have done proper space experience.

    You sound like "game would lose 10 and gain 0". But maybe it would be "game would lose 10 but gain 20".

    Anyway, i dont even care about space combat, but as content usage data has shown they pretty much wasted that money, and from your own point of view it DID take away something that could have been much better (for instance swoop racing/pazaak...)

  • aRtFuLThinGaRtFuLThinG MelbournePosts: 1,133Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by mikahr
    and from your own point of view it DID take away something that could have been much better (for instance swoop racing/pazaak...)

     IMO all creditibility lost whenever any Star Wars fans talks about swoop racing, Jar Jar Binks or the likes... those things are abomination of the Episode 1 that made exclusively to appeal to little kids that should never been mentioned again lol :P

    Let us forget.

  • JonokuJonoku Cool, PAPosts: 645Member
    Originally posted by pioneer08
    They are working on new space combat just like they are working on their expansion just like they are working on the eldergame for '13 just like they are working on pvp. The game has been out a year and some expect everything to be out now...well thats not how mmos work. , There will always be those who say Swtor can't do this cant do that their engine isnt good enough blah blah blah. The game started out rocky yes it did. They have done a good job to fix the issued and make it a very good mmo hence the very heavy and full servers.

    Its still true, the way the game was designed and their engine, cant do much. They have done a good job being a WoW clone and being what it was designed for. But it can't be what it cannot, its a fact.

    Looking at: The Repopulation
    Preordering: None
    Playing: Random Games

  • ibn_Cartwellibn_Cartwell Northwest, MTPosts: 47Member
    Originally posted by ignore_me

    Tonight's Top Ten list comes to you from the home office in Austin Texas. It's the

    TOP TEN REASONS FOR SWTOR SPACE GAME

    #10. Starfox Fans letter writing campaign too big to ignore.

    #9. Cool 1980s era Movie Frame Camera panning is "Wave of the Future in gaming"

    #8. Budget for Space Game blown on staff Karaoke nights at the TGI Fridays.

    #7. Drives containing the original space game for SWTOR stolen from apartment building under suspicious circumstances.

    #6. Testers found Space Game takes your mind off the pain of hitting an empty endgame at level 50.

    #5. EA

    #4. Space Game hastily thrown in after "Jawa Crawler Races" failed to pass QA.

    #3. Some testers experienced pleasant halucinations while playing the space game while also listening to trance music and taking drugs.

    #2. George saw the space game and stamped it with his little stamp he carries around. You don't go against the stamp.

     

    and the #1 reason for SWTOR Space Game .....

    #1. Dallas Dickenson, once bullied as a child by Raph Koster, vows to kill Star Wars MMOs for good!

     

    LOL! this is awesome

  • ignore_meignore_me Apple Valley, CAPosts: 1,987Member
    Originally posted by ibn_Cartwell
    Originally posted by ignore_me

    Tonight's Top Ten list comes to you from the home office in Austin Texas. It's the

    TOP TEN REASONS FOR SWTOR SPACE GAME

    #10. Starfox Fans letter writing campaign too big to ignore.

    #9. Cool 1980s era Movie Frame Camera panning is "Wave of the Future in gaming"

    #8. Budget for Space Game blown on staff Karaoke nights at the TGI Fridays.

    #7. Drives containing the original space game for SWTOR stolen from apartment building under suspicious circumstances.

    #6. Testers found Space Game takes your mind off the pain of hitting an empty endgame at level 50.

    #5. EA

    #4. Space Game hastily thrown in after "Jawa Crawler Races" failed to pass QA.

    #3. Some testers experienced pleasant halucinations while playing the space game while also listening to trance music and taking drugs.

    #2. George saw the space game and stamped it with his little stamp he carries around. You don't go against the stamp.

     

    and the #1 reason for SWTOR Space Game .....

    #1. Dallas Dickenson, once bullied as a child by Raph Koster, vows to kill Star Wars MMOs for good!

     

    LOL! this is awesome

    Thank you :)

    Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  • ignore_meignore_me Apple Valley, CAPosts: 1,987Member
    Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG
    Originally posted by mikahr
    and from your own point of view it DID take away something that could have been much better (for instance swoop racing/pazaak...)

     IMO all creditibility lost whenever any Star Wars fans talks about swoop racing, Jar Jar Binks or the likes... those things are abomination of the Episode 1 that made exclusively to appeal to little kids that should never been mentioned again lol :P

    Let us forget.

    In my opinion, Star Wars as a whole is a kids phenomenon that adults couldn't absorb after growing up. The original movies didn't feature prostitution, sodomy, divorce rates, mortgage woes, unemployment, incontinence, bipolar disorder, graphic defication, etc.

    The whole thing is supposed to be like the movie serials of the 30s, which was anachronistic to 70s era sensibilities not to mention today's norms.

     

    Example: Boba Fett is the most popular character in many surveys, but there was nothing really to him but a look. The blanks were filled in by the fans, who turned him into the Wolverine of Star Wars. When lucas made kids movies again it shouldnt have been a surprise. Same for Disney I imagine.

    Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  • mikahrmikahr ZagrebPosts: 1,066Member
    Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG
    Originally posted by mikahr
    and from your own point of view it DID take away something that could have been much better (for instance swoop racing/pazaak...)

     IMO all creditibility lost whenever any Star Wars fans talks about swoop racing, Jar Jar Binks or the likes... those things are abomination of the Episode 1 that made exclusively to appeal to little kids that should never been mentioned again lol :P

    Let us forget.

    Does it matter which mini game it is?

    Maybe if its "speeder races" it would be more akin to 4-6, and sound more "credible"?

    Just to be more funny, swoop races in current "space combat" format would actually float and wouldnt get any flak "space experience" did.

  • MurlockDanceMurlockDance ParisPosts: 1,223Member
    Originally posted by sapphen

    That would've been a truely awesome game.

    As far as the factions, I agree that smugglers and bounty hunters should be in a 3rd neutral faction (such as the Hutts).  Each of them should have the option (late in a story arc) to join either the republic, empire or stay neutral.  In addition, the republic and empire players should have an option to betray their faction and join the opposite or become neutral.

    That would've been a lot of work but if you look at it from the planning stages, it wouldn't be any more work than what they did.  That's the premise of a designer to fit the concept into a plausible project.

    Yes, betrayals would have been so amazing to have in the game ! EQ2 is the only game at the moment that I know of that allows betrayals and I think the idea should be picked up in other games. It gives so many roleplay options ! In SWG you could effectively betray, or at least switch sides. PvP was vibrant in that game.

    Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.

    image
  • MurlockDanceMurlockDance ParisPosts: 1,223Member
    Originally posted by mikahr
    Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG
    Originally posted by mikahr
    and from your own point of view it DID take away something that could have been much better (for instance swoop racing/pazaak...)

     IMO all creditibility lost whenever any Star Wars fans talks about swoop racing, Jar Jar Binks or the likes... those things are abomination of the Episode 1 that made exclusively to appeal to little kids that should never been mentioned again lol :P

    Let us forget.

    Does it matter which mini game it is?

    Maybe if its "speeder races" it would be more akin to 4-6, and sond more "credible"?

    Just to be more funny, swoop races in current "space combat" would actually float and wouldnt get any flak "space experience" did.

    I personally don't see a problem with having pazaak, swoop racing minigames, but ideally space combat should be a big part of Star Wars and it isn't here. I don't mind having the little minigame missions, as they can be fun every now and then and I think that Bioware should have the option in to do quick missions, but I hope they seriously expand space combat and make it another integral part of the game like JTL was in SWG. I think it would be very expensive for them to implement it though and we will probably never see it. Such a shame.

    Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.

    image
  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    I dint get the starfox comparisons, starfox was a good game back in its day. The space bits in swtor are more like if someone made a cheap star wars game for the iPad
  • baphametbaphamet omaha, NEPosts: 2,836Member Uncommon

    its a mini game and a decent mini game at that. you look at some of the mini games other mmo's have and they pale in comparison.

    that said, if you were wanting a SW game with free roaming space content, i understand your disappointment.

    however we have known it doesn't have that for quite some time now yet we are still complaining about it to this day?

    sorry but get over it, it doesn't have the space combat you were looking for.....move along, move along.

  • NeoCroX997NeoCroX997 hoorPosts: 28Member

     

    I have examined the responses you have given.  And thanks for participating :)!

    You all have different opinions and I respect that. Many already have ideas for how it can be better and others think it's good as it is.

    The big question is whether the space battle can be made better in the future. The second question is whether it can be done with the engine as it is now. And there looks less possible that there could be changes as it is now. But with a little luck we might have what we want and would have been from the beginning for most of us.

    My idea behind the SWG space combat was not to compare the SWG to be SWTOR. The fight system was real good and to develop it so it fits SWTOR style in a unique way and different. That could be nice.

    You may have high expectations for something that has less than you thought. Maybe because it is believed that the game becomes better with time. That´s how I felt it a bit.

    We see this game similar to other games in the form of systems, functions and skills. And most of the time it is at least one thing that makes something unique. If we focus this within the star wars games for a while.
     

    I think that space as something infinitely, beautiful. Can be described as the silence you hear before the fight starts. Then you see  massive lightbeams from imperials and republics shooting each other.


    How can we make this space world unique within the game, and is it really what we need in the end?

    Others prefer to focus on what KOTOR was as original. without space.

  • tiefighter25tiefighter25 Winchester, MAPosts: 937Member
    Originally posted by baphamet

    its a mini game and a decent mini game at that. you look at some of the mini games other mmo's have and they pale in comparison.

    that said, if you were wanting a SW game with free roaming space content, i understand your disappointment.

    however we have known it doesn't have that for quite some time now yet we are still complaining about it to this day?

    sorry but get over it, it doesn't have the space combat you were looking for.....move along, move along.

    This is going to sound antagonistic, but as fun as it is to quote the Jedi mindtricked stormtrooper "move along, move along", that is exactly what Bioware doesn't want, is bad for the game, and what happened and why the game is now FTP.

    In regard to Space combat specifically, your point that people have known for a long time what the Space Combat in SWTOR is like and should take it for "it is what it is"; is undercut by Bioware's dangling carrot of "The Super Secret Space Project".

    Since March of 2012, nearly a year ago, Bioware announced that it had a "Super Secret Space Project". They didnt and won't describe what it is, other then alluding that it is awesome. (paraphrased)

    That announcement, and every few months making vague refrences to the project's progress, is a tacit  admission by Bioware that the current mini-game is sub-par and unacceptable.

    For people to both hypothisize and want 3D free roaming space doeesn't seem out of place since Bioware is dangling what may or may not be 3D free roaming space in its super secret space project.

    That's how I feel at any rate.

  • ignore_meignore_me Apple Valley, CAPosts: 1,987Member
    Originally posted by tiefighter25
    Originally posted by baphamet

    its a mini game and a decent mini game at that. you look at some of the mini games other mmo's have and they pale in comparison.

    that said, if you were wanting a SW game with free roaming space content, i understand your disappointment.

    however we have known it doesn't have that for quite some time now yet we are still complaining about it to this day?

    sorry but get over it, it doesn't have the space combat you were looking for.....move along, move along.

    This is going to sound antagonistic, but as fun as it is to quote the Jedi mindtricked stormtrooper "move along, move along", that is exactly what Bioware doesn't want, is bad for the game, and what happened and why the game is now FTP.

    In regard to Space combat specifically, your point that people have known for a long time what the Space Combat in SWTOR is like and should take it for "it is what it is"; is undercut by Bioware's dangling carrot of "The Super Secret Space Project".

    Since March of 2012, nearly a year ago, Bioware announced that it had a "Super Secret Space Project". They didnt and won't describe what it is, other then alluding that it is awesome. (paraphrased)

    That announcement, and every few months making vague refrences to the project's progress, is a tacit  admission by Bioware that the current mini-game is sub-par and unacceptable.

    For people to both hypothisize and want 3D free roaming space doeesn't seem out of place since Bioware is dangling what may or may not be 3D free roaming space in its super secret space project.

    That's how I feel at any rate.

    totally true, and characteristic of how they have been operating: X feature will be introduced at some point .... so keep playing in hopes that it will.

    Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  • baphametbaphamet omaha, NEPosts: 2,836Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by tiefighter25

    This is going to sound antagonistic, but as fun as it is to quote the Jedi mindtricked stormtrooper "move along, move along", that is exactly what Bioware doesn't want, is bad for the game, and what happened and why the game is now FTP.


    lets be realistic here, the lack of free roaming space content is not why this game "failed" or why it went free to play.

    it could have had that at launch and would that have kept people playing? i don't see it honestly.


    In regard to Space combat specifically, your point that people have known for a long time what the Space Combat in SWTOR is like and should take it for "it is what it is"; is undercut by Bioware's dangling carrot of "The Super Secret Space Project".

    Since March of 2012, nearly a year ago, Bioware announced that it had a "Super Secret Space Project". They didnt and won't describe what it is, other then alluding that it is awesome. (paraphrased)

    That announcement, and every few months making vague refrences to the project's progress, is a tacit  admission by Bioware that the current mini-game is sub-par and unacceptable.


    yet that isn't what this thread is about is it? they are still complaining about the same thing they have known about for a long time.

    if/when they announce new space content and you want to voice opinions about it good or bad, by all means go for it.

    but if you are still complaining about the current space mini game (the first step is recognizing that its a mini game and nothing more) then you really need to move on.


    For people to both hypothisize and want 3D free roaming space doeesn't seem out of place since Bioware is dangling what may or may not be 3D free roaming space in its super secret space project.

    That's how I feel at any rate.


    again, this thread isn't about what the space combat may become in the future, its about the current space mini game and if its a failure.

    if you didn't like it a year ago when the game launched you are not going to like it today when the game is free, move along and get over it.

    by the way i hope they do add some free roaming space content since i actually do subscribe to play this game currently unlike a lot of people that complain about it.

  • mmoguy43mmoguy43 , CAPosts: 2,439Member Uncommon

    If I could just know how much of their bloated budget was spent on the space combat I might feel better for what it is.

    Preferably the space combat missions should have been it's own form of progression because currently it is easily outleveled and forgotten with no regret or becomes an annoying requirement on the daily grind checklist. The problem with having it be a stand alone side game with progression is that it would need significantly more content (not scaled up versions of the same content). And that was the whole point of making this space combat addition. Do as much as possible with very little extra effort.

    At best space missions provide is an occasional fun thing to do to break up the monotanty of class/side missions and as a F2P player with reduced XP, they would get more out of that. But to turn it into yet another boring repitition at "eldergame" lacking any variability was IMO a mistake. But this mistake happened with it's conception. Space Combat as a valuable added feature for SWTOR? Failure in that regard. Better than nothing, I suppose.

  • Demmi77Demmi77 philly, PAPosts: 225Member

    it was implemented as  a mini game. Much like pet combat in wow or fishing or gambling or whatever other games do to add mini games.

    It really can't be classified as a failure because it has no impact whatsoever in the swtor univers, which is in my opnion the ultimate failure. Space combat is just a arcade mini game in swtor. If the revamp it nice, if not , it has absolutely zero affect on the gameplay.

  • tiefighter25tiefighter25 Winchester, MAPosts: 937Member
    Originally posted by Demmi77

    it was implemented as  a mini game. Much like pet combat in wow or fishing or gambling or whatever other games do to add mini games.

    It really can't be classified as a failure because it has no impact whatsoever in the swtor univers, which is in my opnion the ultimate failure. Space combat is just a arcade mini game in swtor. If the revamp it nice, if not , it has absolutely zero affect on the gameplay.

    You don't gain XP from WoW's fishing , or buy cartel exclusive ship upgrade parts, or buy FTP weekly passes to fish.

    WoW never had ad campaign's showing someone fishing and touted it as a component of the game.

    You can't auto-level your WoW character by buying a bot to fish around the clock.

  • superniceguysuperniceguy AnchorheadPosts: 2,278Member Uncommon
    SWG had pet combat, fishing, gambling any many other mini games including some aracde cabinets from TCG to put in your house PLUS it had the best space combat system in any MMO
  • mrrshann618mrrshann618 Waseca, MNPosts: 227Member Uncommon

    Gotta love threads like this. Read through alot of it, skimmed some, and read more. Lemme sum up what I'm seeing

    SWG did it better

    Who cares about SWG this is SWTOR and as a mini-game the space isn't bad

    Yes the space is bad, people who like the space games even said so

    That's funny, I like the space games as a break in the game, and I do not think it is bad.

    Yeah but SWG had awesome space stuff, every game should have free flowing space stuff like SWG!

    It is a mini-game get over it

    Yeah but other MMO mini-games you do not earn exp and stuff You cannot just level from the mini-games (Which is REALLY funny becuase in Aion you can earn all your levels by fishing and stuff)

     

    So that is a brief sum up of how I see it.

    The space mini-game is just  that a mini-game, it never said that it was a wide open free flowing space opera extravaganza, that was slated for later. Later never had an attached date so getting mad that it isn't out yet is simply silly. Space combat wasn't initially attempted as a multi-player experience. As a Mini-game it is a fun break for people like me who do not like grinding the same thing over and over. To all those who constantly compare this to SWG: This isn't SWG it will never be. Nor will it be the same as Eve open space, STO open space, or any other open space game. I do not care "Who did it right, so you should copy it" with that attitude you will never see something new.

    Why can't people just enoy something for what it is not what they think it should be?

    Play what you Like. I like SWOTR, Have a referral to get you going!
    -->  http://www.swtor.com/r/nBndbs  <--
    Several Unlocks and a few days game time to make the F2P considerably easier
  • ktanner3ktanner3 lakeland, FLPosts: 4,074Member Common
    Originally posted by mrrshann618

     

    Why can't people just enoy something for what it is not what they think it should be?

    LOL! You do remember what site you're on right? Many posters here haven't enjoyed a game for years and wouldn't know what to do with themselves if they couldn't gripe anymore. 

    Currently Playing: Star Wars The Old Republic

  • darkkblackdarkkblack Lowell, NCPosts: 38Member
    I admit that I really enjoy space themed games over all else. I am ready for the future, I am so over swords and shields and walking... bleh. That being wrote, Eve Online has unmatched ship control. Double click in space ship goes in the direction you click. right click option controls if you want to warp. The turrets and launchers do stay focused on your target on their own but there are a lot of variables to consider. Range and tracking come into play and where you move your ship really effects your damage output and winability. 

    image
  • tiefighter25tiefighter25 Winchester, MAPosts: 937Member

    I'll just leave this here:

    http://www.swtor.com/holonet/space-combat

  • ignore_meignore_me Apple Valley, CAPosts: 1,987Member
    Originally posted by mrrshann618

     

    Why can't people just enoy something for what it is not what they think it should be?

    Lemme summarize this last line of yours for you ....

    I don't really care about this topic so let me dismiss the gripes

    Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  • MurlockDanceMurlockDance ParisPosts: 1,223Member
    Originally posted by mrrshann618

    Gotta love threads like this. Read through alot of it, skimmed some, and read more. Lemme sum up what I'm seeing

    SWG did it better

    Who cares about SWG this is SWTOR and as a mini-game the space isn't bad

    Yes the space is bad, people who like the space games even said so

    That's funny, I like the space games as a break in the game, and I do not think it is bad.

    Yeah but SWG had awesome space stuff, every game should have free flowing space stuff like SWG!

    It is a mini-game get over it

    Yeah but other MMO mini-games you do not earn exp and stuff You cannot just level from the mini-games (Which is REALLY funny becuase in Aion you can earn all your levels by fishing and stuff)

     

    So that is a brief sum up of how I see it.

    The space mini-game is just  that a mini-game, it never said that it was a wide open free flowing space opera extravaganza, that was slated for later. Later never had an attached date so getting mad that it isn't out yet is simply silly. Space combat wasn't initially attempted as a multi-player experience. As a Mini-game it is a fun break for people like me who do not like grinding the same thing over and over. To all those who constantly compare this to SWG: This isn't SWG it will never be. Nor will it be the same as Eve open space, STO open space, or any other open space game. I do not care "Who did it right, so you should copy it" with that attitude you will never see something new.

    Why can't people just enoy something for what it is not what they think it should be?

    As I said before, I rather like the space combat minigame though I feel that Bioware is sort of shooting itself in the foot by restricting it so much for unsubbed players. The price tag they gave for week passes is a little too steep in my book to warrant getting it, but that being said, it is a fun little arcade game to blow away a bit of time and keep from getting burnt out on the quests and grind.

    Seeing that SWG closed in part because of ToR's release, it is a bitter pill to swallow though that SWG had a fully fledged space portion to the game and ToR does not pay any attention to it. For those SW fans who wanted a decent replacement for SWG, well they are pretty much stuffed. As far as I know, there is nothing that provides deep and meaningful space and planet-based content at the moment. EVE has the space part, ToR has the planet/ground stuff, and though I have not played it, I guess that STO is more space-oriented. There is nothing to cover both bases. So there is indeed room for this sort of game.

    The OP is right, space could definitely be expanded upon by Bioware as a good direction to take the game and with their own version of it, and I maintain that they could keep their space minigame in place.

     

    I feel that SWG should not have closed. With a decent F2P model, it would have been popular. I could easily play both SWG and ToR.

    Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.

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