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Old school MMO's expectations and realities.

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Comments

  • DewmDewm Soldotna, AKPosts: 1,341Member
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Dewm
    Originally posted by Disdena
    Originally posted by Dewm

    >Snipe<

     

    >Snipe<

    >Snipe<

     Well we don't tolerate bad launches as much as we did in the past.  Bad lag, broken features, clipping... will kill a game faster than any lack of end game content.

    We expect smooth play, decent graphics. 

    We expected that back in the day, at the time EQ and FFXI were breaking ground for graphics.

    We expect fast, responsive controls

    I don't remember that being a issue in EQ or FFXI (only 2 oldschool MMO's I actually played for a period of time)

    , good combat. 

    this one could be debated, I enjoyed combat in FFXI.. but I know quite a few didn't

    Decent crafting,

    SWG and FFXI were known for this..

    flight,

    That is a new feature I will admit

    housing would be nice (but probably isn't a widespread expecation),

    Very common in older mmo's

    great environmental terrain, lots of customization...

    Both very common in older MMO's.

    Just off the top of my head

     

     

    You just proved my point, you stated alot of features there that we "would really like to see" in modern MMO's..

    But 10 years ago, if a MMO was to have decent crafting, and housing.. people wouldn't think anything of it.. because it was already a standard feature.

    thats how are expectations have been lowered slowley in the last 10 years.

    Please check out my channel. I do gaming reviews, gaming related reviews & lets plays. Thanks!

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by FelixMajor

    The problem with us old school mmo'ers and rpg'ers is that we had concrete, lore stuffed, in depth games to immerse ourselves in.

     

    What happened?  Companies want to draw larger crowds, generalizing their games to maximize profits.  Gaming was industrialized, surpised?

     

    It is nice to see now, though, with the rise of kickstarter and steam greenlight that a lot of smaller companies and developers are actually given a chance to let their true passion for game design shine.  It's great that there are still people out there in it for the art, and not business.

     

    No, the people that you speak of don't have high expectations, we know what works and what is fun and we have all seen it done before.  It's just sad because all the creativity is diluted with the business aspects of creating a game, it really sucks.

     I don't think old games had any more lore, or had more depth than most newer games.

    I think in many cases they were shallower with fewer choices and needless complications that did not add to the game.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by Goatgod76
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Goatgod76

    LOL!

    Show me in any post I ever added on these forums where I regard myself as such...since you are aiming it directly at me. I haven't. But as is the norm, you make assumption I do, or will find tidbits of posts I put to try and twist it that way.

    I just like what I like, and you like what you like. Difference is, I don't go into every thread about a post-2004 MMORPG to tell why they are terrible and won't work...as I stated above.

    And need I point out yet again I play console games as well, and have since 1982 when I received my first one(Atari 2600). So I play both. The thing with that is, the console genre I have played since then hasn't changed a whole lot  other than obviously the technology, graphics, and sheer choices we have. Where as the MMORPG genre has changed drastically...towards making them the same genre as console gaming. Quick fun meant for casual play. Which personally, I feel they shouldn't be and is WHY they are a different genre.

    I only reply to the threads which go around wondering and wailing about "how we got here?" and/or generally bash the games or their players unjustly.

    MMORPGs are not even close to casual games. Not even close. But your exaggeration doesn't end there: You also have commented numerous times that all post-WoW games are "WoW-clones". It doesn't matter if you play console games or not, new or old. You make generalizations and stereotypes about console games and "the console generation".

    Use slurs like "instant gratification" and "easy-mode"...

    I'm a saint compared to you.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • DisdenaDisdena Troy, NYPosts: 1,093Member
    Originally posted by Dewm

    Just like my post was my opinion, your post is your opinion. But either way its fun to discuss.

     

    You say that we have higher expectations now... I would ask you how? what features/options do we expect now that are so much more then what we had 10 years ago?

    We might be arguing past one another. I'm not saying that there are specific features that we expect now that we did not expect then. Each individual has their own list of things that make an MMO good or bad. Would intolerance be a better word than expectation? We are less tolerant now than we were 10 years ago. People who didn't like corpse runs played EQ anyway. People who didn't like item decay played SWG anyway. People who didn't like being unable to jump played FFXI anyway. All of these things are now dealbreakers. People will disregard a game without a second thought just because it lacks one single thing that they want in an MMO. And yet, these are not features that are universally good. One man's trash is another man's treasure; there's someone out there who refuses to MMOs just because they lack one of those features.

    image
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Dewm
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Dewm
    Originally posted by Disdena
    Originally posted by Dewm

    >Snipe<

     

    >Snipe<

    >Snipe<

     Well we don't tolerate bad launches as much as we did in the past.  Bad lag, broken features, clipping... will kill a game faster than any lack of end game content.

    We expect smooth play, decent graphics. 

    We expected that back in the day, at the time EQ and FFXI were breaking ground for graphics.

    We expect fast, responsive controls

    I don't remember that being a issue in EQ or FFXI (only 2 oldschool MMO's I actually played for a period of time)

    , good combat. 

    this one could be debated, I enjoyed combat in FFXI.. but I know quite a few didn't

    Decent crafting,

    SWG and FFXI were known for this..

    flight,

    That is a new feature I will admit

    housing would be nice (but probably isn't a widespread expecation),

    Very common in older mmo's

    great environmental terrain, lots of customization...

    Both very common in older MMO's.

    Just off the top of my head

     

     

    You just proved my point, you stated alot of features there that we "would really like to see" in modern MMO's..

    But 10 years ago, if a MMO was to have decent crafting, and housing.. people wouldn't think anything of it.. because it was already a standard feature.

    thats how are expectations have been lowered slowley in the last 10 years.

     EQ had lots of stutters.  Fast responsive controls were just not there.  Delays and stutters were very common. 

    Some games had decent crafting.  Some games do now.  Housing was not very common in older MMO's, it has always been rare.

    There was not lots of customization in older MMOs. 

    Launches today are generally smoother than in the post.  Possibly due to technology, possibly due to demand.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • pmilespmiles Federal Way, WAPosts: 383Member
    Originally posted by jimdandy26

    ... Simply put development costs have increased dramatically. The average wage for a game developer has increased by upwards of $15,000 a year over the last 10 years alone, and that number is just going to continue to climb. On top of that the amount of cost that comes along with making those "new graphics" has increased even more with all of the newer toolsets and associated software licenses required.

    Clearly you missed the class on outsourcing... move the production site to India, China, or the like and the costs are easily cut in half.  It only costs a lot of money in countries where the cost of living is relatively high.  Labor is cheap in some countries... hence the invention of "outsourcing."

    Compare the wages earned today to those back in the late 80s/early 90s and you will discover that people made far more money then than they do now doing this stuff.  Back then, the equipment/software was extremely expensive, thus the number of people with the right skills were relatively small... they made far more per hour by comparision than those doing the same thing today.

    Software/hardware is cheap, labor is where all the costs come in.  A lot of the work already is being done overseas.  More of it gets shipped overseas every day.  Production costs get slashed, profits go up.

  • DewmDewm Soldotna, AKPosts: 1,341Member
    Originally posted by Disdena
    Originally posted by Dewm

    Just like my post was my opinion, your post is your opinion. But either way its fun to discuss.

     

    You say that we have higher expectations now... I would ask you how? what features/options do we expect now that are so much more then what we had 10 years ago?

    We might be arguing past one another. I'm not saying that there are specific features that we expect now that we did not expect then. Each individual has their own list of things that make an MMO good or bad. Would intolerance be a better word than expectation? We are less tolerant now than we were 10 years ago. People who didn't like corpse runs played EQ anyway. People who didn't like item decay played SWG anyway. People who didn't like being unable to jump played FFXI anyway. All of these things are now dealbreakers. People will disregard a game without a second thought just because it lacks one single thing that they want in an MMO. And yet, these are not features that are universally good. One man's trash is another man's treasure; there's someone out there who refuses to MMOs just because they lack one of those features.

     

    So we have higher expectations, because we have more options..

    ..which I suppose I could agree with.

    Please check out my channel. I do gaming reviews, gaming related reviews & lets plays. Thanks!

  • DewmDewm Soldotna, AKPosts: 1,341Member
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Dewm
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Dewm
    Originally posted by Disdena
    Originally posted by Dewm

    >Snipe<

     

    >Snipe<

    >Snipe<

     

    >Snipe<

     

     

    >Snipe<

     EQ had lots of stutters.  Fast responsive controls were just not there.  Delays and stutters were very common. 

    Some games had decent crafting.  Some games do now.  Housing was not very common in older MMO's, it has always been rare.

    There was not lots of customization in older MMOs. 

    Like I said, my own hands on was only with FFXI, and EQ... I don't remember "fast" controls because you didn't need to mash 15 buttons a second, but as far as navegating around windowns and walking around in the world I don't remember any lag (rose colored glasses..maybe?)

    and as far as player housing.. can you name one single AAA MMO that has had housing in the last 5 years?

     

    And as far as options.... FFXI had 5 races, with race specific stats, tons of hair styles and all of that crap (which I never really cared about) 

    it had 18 jobs, 9 crafting classes

     

    etc etc... I don't see how you say there wasn't alot of customization.

     

     

    No you couldn't put a tatoo on a face or change a girls breast size... but who really cares about that stuff?

    Please check out my channel. I do gaming reviews, gaming related reviews & lets plays. Thanks!

  • Goatgod76Goatgod76 Stow, OHPosts: 1,214Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Goatgod76
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Goatgod76

    LOL!

    Show me in any post I ever added on these forums where I regard myself as such...since you are aiming it directly at me. I haven't. But as is the norm, you make assumption I do, or will find tidbits of posts I put to try and twist it that way.

    I just like what I like, and you like what you like. Difference is, I don't go into every thread about a post-2004 MMORPG to tell why they are terrible and won't work...as I stated above.

    And need I point out yet again I play console games as well, and have since 1982 when I received my first one(Atari 2600). So I play both. The thing with that is, the console genre I have played since then hasn't changed a whole lot  other than obviously the technology, graphics, and sheer choices we have. Where as the MMORPG genre has changed drastically...towards making them the same genre as console gaming. Quick fun meant for casual play. Which personally, I feel they shouldn't be and is WHY they are a different genre.

    I only reply to the threads which go around wondering and wailing about "how we got here?" and/or generally bash the games or their players unjustly.

    MMORPGs are not even close to casual games. Not even close. But your exaggeration doesn't end there: You also have commented numerous times that all post-WoW games are "WoW-clones". It doesn't matter if you play console games or not, new or old. You make generalizations and stereotypes about console games and "the console generation".

    Use slurs like "instant gratification" and "easy-mode"...

    I'm a saint compared to you.

    Sigh...if you say so. I'm not getting into another of the usual garbage, go nowehere arguments with you.

     

    P.S.

    1. instant gratification 43 up, 16 down
     
    1)immediate satisfaction; the quick attainability of happiness or of contentness.

    How something that refers to quick fun is a slur IDK. The term doesn't offend me, and I play them as well. It's just something I don't feel should saturate MMORPG's. Not saying it doesn't belong at all, just not to the ridiculous degree it does now. There is little to no RPG portion in them now. But again, this is my personal outlook.

     
  • Goatgod76Goatgod76 Stow, OHPosts: 1,214Member
    Originally posted by Dewm
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Dewm
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Dewm
    Originally posted by Disdena
    Originally posted by Dewm

    >Snipe<

     

    >Snipe<

    >Snipe<

     

    >Snipe<

     

     

    >Snipe<

     EQ had lots of stutters.  Fast responsive controls were just not there.  Delays and stutters were very common. 

    Some games had decent crafting.  Some games do now.  Housing was not very common in older MMO's, it has always been rare.

    There was not lots of customization in older MMOs. 

    Like I said, my own hands on was only with FFXI, and EQ... I don't remember "fast" controls because you didn't need to mash 15 buttons a second, but as far as navegating around windowns and walking around in the world I don't remember any lag (rose colored glasses..maybe?)

    and as far as player housing.. can you name one single AAA MMO that has had housing in the last 5 years?

     

    And as far as options.... FFXI had 5 races, with race specific stats, tons of hair styles and all of that crap (which I never really cared about) 

    it had 18 jobs, 9 crafting classes

     

    etc etc... I don't see how you say there wasn't alot of customization.

     

     

    No you couldn't put a tatoo on a face or change a girls breast size... but who really cares about that stuff?

    One thing I am definitely glad has gone away from the days of EQ was the abysmally boring fighting. Hit attack, and sit and wait...and hope more of your attacks land than the enemies.

     

    Then...you couldn't take on reds or sometimes even yellows because your chances of missing were higher and chances of death higher. Now, you have many options in fighting and can sometimes take on those reds or yellows if you know your class well. And also get a bit of luck and not have a whole lot of resists. =) Combat is definitely MUCH better now.

  • DisdenaDisdena Troy, NYPosts: 1,093Member
    Originally posted by Starpower
    Originally posted by Disdena

    especially when nearly every single one of those games is still running but has almost no players.

    I'm only going to comment on this part because it's a clear fallacious argument I see often. Games get stale specially with the rise of new technology. It doesn't matter if it has all the bells and whistles people moan about. There's several factors that apply. One being people like to play the latest and greatest following the flock. Another being, once you have grown tired of a MMO people rarely return. If they did then the oldest MMOs would obviously be competitive in player numbers.

     

    Games have changed but so have the generation of gamers. They don't have the same expectations as the first generation of MMO gamers, because they weren't around then.

    No, I think we're more or less on the same page. It's true that MMOs are bound to lose players as time goes on, as players leave for a variety of reasons and fewer players join the game to replace them. No question. But those MMOs are unpopular today for more reasons that just the fact that they're not the newest game. You could not get today's MMO players to embrace one of the granddaddy MMOs just by slapping a fresh coat of paint on it and rereleasing it as a "new" game.

    image
  • IsaneIsane EnglandPosts: 2,629Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Dewm
    Originally posted by Arglebargle

    Disdena brings up a number of good points. 

     

    The OP mentions playing the old school games for 5-8 hours at a pop.   Game developers have realized that a lot of people who might otherwise play (and buy) their games, can't do this with any regularity.  I think the OP underestimates the amount of money that would need to be spent to 'modernize' the old school game;  art, animation, coding, etc;  that has to be paid for, usually upfront, and a resonable return on investment has to be there.   As Disdena points out, many of these games had serious problems.   Bad launches, poor coding, giant chunks that worked poorly or not at all, now substandard art or animation.  Is it 'higher expectations' to want a return to THAT?  SWG had character classes that never worked right.   UO had continual, massive changes, because things didn't work the way the developers intended.  And that was not due to them wanting UO to be a WoW-clone.

     

    The proposed game has to bring in a profit for the people making it.  Until it can be shown there's a real market, all you'll see is small, independant companies doing these types of games, usually with attendant serious issues.   

     

    We are not disagreeing here, I do admit most people don't have 5-8hrs to play, (I don't anymore) And I know it would take a fair amount of money to "modernize" older MMO's.. 

    But the point of my OP was, expectations have not risen. if anything we expect less from games.

     

    In the old days, we expected player housing

    we expected in-depth crafting

    we expected a good varity of classes

    we expected a large world

     

    ....now days the newer games rarely have any of those features, and if they do its touted as some great accomplishment, some feet that was really difficult, that no game has ever done before.

     

    look at the hype around Archeage... looks to be a awesome game. but does it really have anything that EQ didn't have? 

    Great post by the OP and this just about sums it up ; The diatribe delivered these days under the umbrella of "MMO" is laughable.

    The Quality/Depth of Gameplay just don't exist anymore... It is all so easy with Auto everything.

    Seems most here have no argument even though they are trying, Very good post ...

    "Game Developers have realised they can make more money , producing trash games a sad state of affairs..."

     

    ________________________________________________________
    Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel 

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Dewm
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Dewm
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Dewm
    Originally posted by Disdena
    Originally posted by Dewm

    >Snipe<

     

    >Snipe<

    >Snipe<

     

    >Snipe<

     

     

    >Snipe<

     EQ had lots of stutters.  Fast responsive controls were just not there.  Delays and stutters were very common. 

    Some games had decent crafting.  Some games do now.  Housing was not very common in older MMO's, it has always been rare.

    There was not lots of customization in older MMOs. 

    Like I said, my own hands on was only with FFXI, and EQ... I don't remember "fast" controls because you didn't need to mash 15 buttons a second, but as far as navegating around windowns and walking around in the world I don't remember any lag (rose colored glasses..maybe?)

    and as far as player housing.. can you name one single AAA MMO that has had housing in the last 5 years?

     

    And as far as options.... FFXI had 5 races, with race specific stats, tons of hair styles and all of that crap (which I never really cared about) 

    it had 18 jobs, 9 crafting classes

     

    etc etc... I don't see how you say there wasn't alot of customization.

     

     

    No you couldn't put a tatoo on a face or change a girls breast size... but who really cares about that stuff?

    Some games had more than others, just like today.

    FF may have had a few (only played that for about a month so can't remember) but EQ while a lot of races only a few hair styles and face styles, it was more akin to wow today.

    CoH, CO, Aion, Perfect world  have infinetley more options. 

    Overall more games today, IMO, have more customization options than the majority of games in the past. 

    No lag in EQ?  The bazaar was horrible for it.  There are entire articles written about the lag and stutters about EQ. 

    The average character customization of most old games is our minimum today. 

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • DewmDewm Soldotna, AKPosts: 1,341Member
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Dewm
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Dewm
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Dewm
    Originally posted by Disdena
    Originally posted by Dewm

    >Snipe<

     

    >Snipe<

    >Snipe<

     

    >Snipe<

     

     

    >Snipe<

     

    >Snipe<

     

    >Snipe<

    Some games had more than others, just like today.

    FF may have had a few (only played that for about a month so can't remember) but EQ while a lot of races only a few hair styles and face styles, it was more akin to wow today.

    CoH, CO, Aion, Perfect world  have infinetley more options. 

    Overall more games today, IMO, have more customization options than the majority of games in the past. 

    No lag in EQ?  The bazaar was horrible for it.  There are entire articles written about the lag and stutters about EQ. 

    The average character customization of most old games is our minimum today. 

     

    Well as far as the lag goes.. was it the game, or the fact that 99% of the player base was on a 56k dial-up modem 

     

    >.<

    /connect

    Bssshhhhzzzzz  wrrrrrrrr  bleeeep  warrrrrrrr  bssshhhhzzzz

     

    haha the good ol' days.

    Please check out my channel. I do gaming reviews, gaming related reviews & lets plays. Thanks!

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon

    That I couldn't say.

    I was on broadband back then, but admittedly I was also still using stock pre-built computers.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by Goatgod76
    Originally posted by Quirhid
     

    Sigh...if you say so. I'm not getting into another of the usual garbage, go nowehere arguments with you.

     

    P.S.

    1. instant gratification 43 up, 16 down
     
    1)immediate satisfaction; the quick attainability of happiness or of contentness.

    How something that refers to quick fun is a slur IDK. The term doesn't offend me, and I play them as well. It's just something I don't feel should saturate MMORPG's. Not saying it doesn't belong at all, just not to the ridiculous degree it does now. There is little to no RPG portion in them now. But again, this is my personal outlook.

     

    See those thumbs up and down? Those mean its an obscure term. Probably coined by bittervets, used by bittervets. Still slur.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • xKingdomxxKingdomx SydneyPosts: 1,541Member
    Originally posted by Dewm

     

     

    In responce to a recent thread here on the site, which takes a look at the issue of players with higher game expectations, and I thought this was off topic enough that it didn't belong in the thread.

     

     

    I see quite often around this site, how expectations are higher now, how we see games through rose colored glasses etc etc.. I'm here to tell you, you are wrong. Just plain wrong.

    Do I have high expectations? no not at all, I want a remake of a game made in 2003 with updated graphics... is that to much to ask? do I have high expectations?.. I don't think so.

    Now many old school MMO'ers on this site would probably agree with what I just said, just replace the said game. Whether its EQ, FFXI, SWG, UO etc... we don't have high expectations, we just expect to have what we had 10 years ago, we are tired of moving backwards..

     

    Favorit things about FFXI? indepth crafting, enough to keep you busy for months, forced partying, grinding, player housing.. I don't think any of these things are unresonable. I don't think I am looking through rose colored glasses.. I am just looking back 10 years, and saying "wow that stuff was fun"

     

    Now why don't we have that stuff today? because our nitch market of 200-400k ppl isn't as much of a money maker as the MMO-lite crowed of today. So we'll probably never see a "old school mmo again"  Now are you tired of hearing us bitch and complain?...find a different forum to visit. 

    So what you are saying is that, all those old games are great, but you wouldn't play them until you get better graphics. Sounds like a whine. If the developers believe in their old games, they can always just upgrade the graphics engine to make it look better.

    And why should I find a different forum? Why can't you find a different forum to bitch about?

    How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
    As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.

  • Goatgod76Goatgod76 Stow, OHPosts: 1,214Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Goatgod76
    Originally posted by Quirhid
     

    Sigh...if you say so. I'm not getting into another of the usual garbage, go nowehere arguments with you.

     

    P.S.

    1. instant gratification 43 up, 16 down
     
    1)immediate satisfaction; the quick attainability of happiness or of contentness.

    How something that refers to quick fun is a slur IDK. The term doesn't offend me, and I play them as well. It's just something I don't feel should saturate MMORPG's. Not saying it doesn't belong at all, just not to the ridiculous degree it does now. There is little to no RPG portion in them now. But again, this is my personal outlook.

     

    See those thumbs up and down? Those mean its an obscure term. Probably coined by bittervets, used by bittervets. Still slur.

    If you say so. Just means 16 people take it personally like you, for whatever reason. Find someone else to argue with that cares, because you are impossible to hold a conversation with. You just want to assume I am one sided...yet look at my post history..it will tell otherwise.

    Last time I will tell you or respond to one of your ridiculous blatherings..I have absolutely no problem with features in MMORPG's that make the game more accessible and fun. Just NOT to the point of rendering the genre extinct, or rendering it a mere shell of it's former self and what made it a unique genre in the first place...niche or not.

    And it's people such as you trying to push that envelope constantly, and enter old school threads where you have no business if you aren't going to try and add constructive posts and instead just say why none of it can work that get under my skin. Stay out of old school threads if you aren't going to be constructive...all that is asked. I have ignored it a long time...but there comes a point someone will lose those patience and come in to tell you to STFU (I just did it in nicer terms).

    But anyway..my time is done with it as I am wasting my time on someone who is hell bent on assumptions and just arguing for the sake of arguing it seems. Going to go play and enjoy Vanguard now.

    P.S. It's interesting that when I made a comment about people doing the above stated, without mentioning names...you responded directly...with again,  assumptions and crude comments. Enjoy talking to yourself from here on out.

  • DewmDewm Soldotna, AKPosts: 1,341Member
    Originally posted by xKingdomx
    Originally posted by Dewm

     

     

    >Snipe<

    So what you are saying is that, all those old games are great, but you wouldn't play them until you get better graphics. Sounds like a whine. If the developers believe in their old games, they can always just upgrade the graphics engine to make it look better.

    And why should I find a different forum? Why can't you find a different forum to bitch about?

    haha, So I need to find another forum to complain on?.. why don't you go read another forum?

     

    As as far as me "whining".....uhmmm you are the only one so far who would interpret what I said, that way. So.. cool story brah?

    Please check out my channel. I do gaming reviews, gaming related reviews & lets plays. Thanks!

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