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[Column] Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn: Cerebral vs Visceral Combat, Part 2

SBFordSBFord Associate Editor - News ManagerThe Land of AZPosts: 16,585MMORPG.COM Staff Uncommon

Last week we went through a heaping helping of combat systems, and this week, we’re bringing it all back in to FFXIV: A Realm Reborn. Read on!

There isn’t a single right way for an industry, but there is a right way (or at least a wrong way) for individual players.  Each gamer has a specific system he or she likes and most likely at least one that is disliked.  We have our own tolerances towards randomness and pacing and that guides us to our perception and preferences for different games.  We also have different gateways to gaming and those shape our opinion on what a game “should” play like.

Read more of Ryahl Smith's Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn - Cerebral vs Visceral Combat, Part 2.

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Comments

  • ScellowScellow Posts: 125Member Uncommon
    An Amazing game , with an old-school point'n'click boutton masher gameplay ... so sad
     
    This game need an Action gameplay !
     
  • vandal5627vandal5627 Jersey City, NJPosts: 586Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Scellow
    An Amazing game , with an old-school boutton masher gameplay ... so sad
     
    This game need an Action gameplay !
     

     Name a game where you don't mash buttons to play :)

  • SlukjanSlukjan Burlington, VTPosts: 254Member Uncommon
    I prefer slower paced or turned based style combat.  I am tired of the action oriented stuff. I'd like to see FF14 achieve a balance between the two.  I thought combat in FF11 was good because it was a slower pace and you didn't have to be all frantic at the keyboard the whole time.  DCUO however felt like a button mashing action fest and not really like an MMO at all. 
  • adam_noxadam_nox hays, KSPosts: 2,073Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Slukjan
    I prefer slower paced or turned based style combat.  I am tired of the action oriented stuff. I'd like to see FF14 achieve a balance between the two.  I thought combat in FF11 was good because it was a slower pace and you didn't have to be all frantic at the keyboard the whole time.  DCUO however felt like a button mashing action fest and not really like an MMO at all. 

    Primarily made for ps3, that was DCUO's strength actually.  I can understand why it wouldn't appeal to everyone, but that game had excellent combat, possibly the best in the mmo biz so far.  It lacked character choice options and much for endgame and socializing aspects.  It became a repetitive daily dungeon finder experience at 30, but I thought it was pretty cool till then.

     

    I don't see why someone doesn't try turn based, or even grid turn based (ok so there was one asian game that did but it's all anime'd out the wazoo and pay2win etc etc).  You can have time limited turns, and synchronous moves/actions for all party members and all enemies, and I think it would work fine.  No one daring enough though.

  • drivendawndrivendawn montgomery, ALPosts: 1,241Member Uncommon
    I can enjoy both forms of combat if done properly, but with it being an FF game I can't picture it with fast action baced combat. It just seems out of place to me.
  • ZooceZooce B, FLPosts: 586Member
    The link at the bottom:
    leads to this same article (part 2), not part 1 as intended.
  • MumboJumboMumboJumbo LondonPosts: 3,221Member

    Awesome series of articles on combat systems in mmorpgs. Be interested if you are doing one on GW2 or other specific mmorpgs as well?

    All I can say is I'm a bit tired of tab-target where it's a half-way house between real-time (but not dynamic or visceral) and turn-based (but not very tactical and complex). The biggest problem with mmorpg combat imo, is bashing a health meter, when you got a hit on an opponent that should have decapitated them!

  • rommellorommello calgary, ABPosts: 185Member
    i really wish mmos these days use vindictus gameplay mechanics and physics.....without them well every mmo seems like point and click nonsense

    hallo ~_~

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,498Member Uncommon

    The question I have is: is the combat cerebral in FFXIV?

     

    So far it looks like it requires only the most basic/simple strategy to play well. If I were to rate it based on what I've seen, it would look like this.

     

    Action/Twitch Combat - 3/10

    Cerebral/Strategy Combat - 3/10

     

    I feel like people are giving this game a pass simply because it does not have a more twitch based system like some of the more recent titles. While I understand that there is a large section of gamers that would like MMORPGs to return to their "less actiony" roots, I think that this game appears (at least right now) to offer a sub-par offering of those roots. I still want to play it myself, but I just don't see what others are seeing when it comes to combat.

  • jskeets916jskeets916 Folsom, CAPosts: 154Member
    Originally posted by Scellow
    An Amazing game , with an old-school boutton masher gameplay ... so sad
     
    This game need an Action gameplay !
     

    Ummm clearly you didn't get 50 in ffxiv or 75 in ffxi where button masshing was the last thing you did.  Positioning, strategy, group composition and resource management were key.  Or did you watch an Alpha video of your buddy up to rank 20 and think you know somehting now??

  • jskeets916jskeets916 Folsom, CAPosts: 154Member
    Originally posted by colddog04

    The question I have is: is the combat cerebral in FFXIV?

     

    So far it looks like it requires only the most basic/simple strategy to play well. If I were to rate it based on what I've seen, it would look like this.

     

    Action/Twitch Combat - 3/10

    Cerebral/Strategy Combat - 3/10

     

    I feel like people are giving this game a pass simply because it does not have a more twitch based system like some of the more recent titles. While I understand that there is a large section of gamers that would like MMORPGs to return to their "less actiony" roots, I think that this game appears (at least right now) to offer a sub-par offering of those roots. I still want to play it myself, but I just don't see what others are seeing when it comes to combat.

     

    Ummmm your watching videos of alpha footage that are not only capped at rank 20 out of 50, but is over 3 months old and is yet again, alpha footage.  Unlike you others actually have been following this development team for 2 years and are aware of the intents of the combat system and willing to at least let them unveil their limit break and combo system before bashing a game since, you know those are probably crucial to determining the combat pace...

  • vandal5627vandal5627 Jersey City, NJPosts: 586Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by colddog04

    The question I have is: is the combat cerebral in FFXIV?

     

    So far it looks like it requires only the most basic/simple strategy to play well. If I were to rate it based on what I've seen, it would look like this.

     

    Action/Twitch Combat - 3/10

    Cerebral/Strategy Combat - 3/10

     

    I feel like people are giving this game a pass simply because it does not have a more twitch based system like some of the more recent titles. While I understand that there is a large section of gamers that would like MMORPGs to return to their "less actiony" roots, I think that this game appears (at least right now) to offer a sub-par offering of those roots. I still want to play it myself, but I just don't see what others are seeing when it comes to combat.

     Yes it's cerebral to me and i enjoy it, does that answer your question?

  • FdiskFdisk Miami, FLPosts: 3Member

    Phenomenal series of articles on MMO combat, I can't congratulate you enough.

     

    I have also found myself these days playing precisely those two games! XCOM and Pirates101 (Thanks to this site). I love XCOM, I wouldn't change a thing about that game's combat my only wish is that it gets used in more Fantasy games in the future since that's my preferred setting.

     

    Pirates101 combat system is a lot more fun than I thought it would be and it is also much closer to what I thought FFXI would be like. Up to 11 the Final Fantasy series was ALL about turn based combat, which is why I expected combat in 11 to be just like that, except with friends! Needless to say I was very disappointed with it.

     

    I really hope that after FFXIV, whether it ends up being a hit or not; Squenix really considers making a Final Fantasy MMO with a combat similar to Pirates101 since it's much more befitting of the series than what we have been getting. One could even argue that Pirates101's combat is almost a copy of Final Fantasy Tactics! (Another game that is a ton of fun and I would gladly play again on my iPhone if it wasn't $17!)

     

    Anyway, great articles. I have high hopes that combat in FFXIV is much more cerebral than tactical; unfortunately my expectations are the opposite, very low. Only Open Beta will really tell.

     
     
  • Aela_DelphiAela_Delphi Friendswood, TXPosts: 5Member
    Originally posted by Zooce
    The link at the bottom:

    leads to this same article (part 2), not part 1 as intended.

    Ah, Here is the link to the actual first article.

     

    Additionally, Ryahl posted a couple articles that go with these two at EorzeaReborn.com, which are both worth checking out.   

    What have we lost to the GCD?

    and

    Raiding in MMOs.

     

    They were posted after the first half of this article was posted.  

    Anari Delphi -- Co-owner and author of EorzeaReborn.com
    Check out Ry's MMORPG.com FFXIV Column -- EorzeaReborn
    Follow Ry and I on Twitter: @EorzeaReborn

  • RyahlRyahl Houston Metro, TXPosts: 47Member
    Originally posted by MumboJumbo

    Awesome series of articles on combat systems in mmorpgs. Be interested if you are doing one on GW2 or other specific mmorpgs as well?

    Thank you MumboJumbo and others, it's been fun putting these thoughts together.

     

     

    I believe I will be writing primarily about FFIXV.  However, with 14 currently down between alpha and beta, it frees me up a bit to cast a wider net and look at MMO's in general.

     

     

    @Adam_Nox  "Primarily made for ps3, that was DCUO's strength actually.  I can understand why it wouldn't appeal to everyone, but that game had excellent combat, possibly the best in the mmo biz so far."

    This is correct, the DCUO UI is built around a console and that's it's biggest weakness on the PC.  The combat in DCUO is a very good example of what an action combat game can do, it's fast and has enough going on to keep you paying attention.  Timing your blocks and dodges is kind of a big deal.

     

     

    I'd rather see people using DCUO as the action combat example over TERA.  The combat models are similar, but DCUO does a bit better job of delivering interesting PVE content.  Also, Legends PVP is pretty fun when it goes well.

     

     

    Ryahl - writer of eye-bleeders
    FFXIV Fansite | TSWGuides
    Follow me on Twitter

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,498Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jskeets916
    Originally posted by colddog04

    The question I have is: is the combat cerebral in FFXIV?

     

    So far it looks like it requires only the most basic/simple strategy to play well. If I were to rate it based on what I've seen, it would look like this.

     

    Action/Twitch Combat - 3/10

    Cerebral/Strategy Combat - 3/10

     

    I feel like people are giving this game a pass simply because it does not have a more twitch based system like some of the more recent titles. While I understand that there is a large section of gamers that would like MMORPGs to return to their "less actiony" roots, I think that this game appears (at least right now) to offer a sub-par offering of those roots. I still want to play it myself, but I just don't see what others are seeing when it comes to combat.

     

    Ummmm your watching videos of alpha footage that are not only capped at rank 20 out of 50, but is over 3 months old and is yet again, alpha footage.  Unlike you others actually have been following this development team for 2 years and are aware of the intents of the combat system and willing to at least let them unveil their limit break and combo system before bashing a game since, you know those are probably crucial to determining the combat pace...

    This came out less than a month ago.

     

    The article that we are posting under is discussing Cerebral vs Visceral combat specifically pertaining to FFXIV. I'm not sure why making a judgement on the combat based on what I've seen and read up to this point is so horrible. They really, really screwed up with the last installment of FFXIV and it's made me skeptical about just saying, "trust them, it's going to be AWESOME!!!" I'm a Final Fantasy fan, but after XIII and XIV, I'm just not as willing to accept the hype.

     

  • jskeets916jskeets916 Folsom, CAPosts: 154Member
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by jskeets916
    Originally posted by colddog04

    The question I have is: is the combat cerebral in FFXIV?

     

    So far it looks like it requires only the most basic/simple strategy to play well. If I were to rate it based on what I've seen, it would look like this.

     

    Action/Twitch Combat - 3/10

    Cerebral/Strategy Combat - 3/10

     

    I feel like people are giving this game a pass simply because it does not have a more twitch based system like some of the more recent titles. While I understand that there is a large section of gamers that would like MMORPGs to return to their "less actiony" roots, I think that this game appears (at least right now) to offer a sub-par offering of those roots. I still want to play it myself, but I just don't see what others are seeing when it comes to combat.

     

    Ummmm your watching videos of alpha footage that are not only capped at rank 20 out of 50, but is over 3 months old and is yet again, alpha footage.  Unlike you others actually have been following this development team for 2 years and are aware of the intents of the combat system and willing to at least let them unveil their limit break and combo system before bashing a game since, you know those are probably crucial to determining the combat pace...

    This came out less than a month ago.

     

    The article that we are posting under is discussing Cerebral vs Visceral combat specifically pertaining to FFXIV. I'm not sure why making a judgement on the combat based on what I've seen and read up to this point is so horrible. They really, really screwed up with the last installment of FFXIV and it's made me skeptical about just saying, "trust them, it's going to be AWESOME!!!" I'm a Final Fantasy fan, but after XIII and XIV, I'm just not as willing to accept the hype.

     

    Nobody is saying trust them and just play it, the only thing i'm saying is be a rational human being and wait AT LEAST until the first stage of what appears to be a 3 month long beta (in which feedback and changes are obviously expected to take place) as opposed to rating a game on outdated alpha content.

     

    To be blunt, wait til the game is closer to its summer release and they've released a playable state with at least half of the levels and combat mechanics included before you rate a game ?/10...

    Oh yes and

     

    ^ That link is of an archer doing a solo levequest at rank 20 in alpha... you really are even more ignorant than you sound when you post links such as this clearly furthering my point that you jumping the gun to bash something instead of evaluating the gameplay and combat system which is party-based based on a video of someone playing solo.

     

    A more simpler analagy, it would be similar to judging the NFL after watching wide receiver drills... One facet of a group dynamic sport which if like i mentioned earlier, you had played ffxi more than a month you would understand that is more akin to what you can expect.

     
  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,498Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jskeets916

    Nobody is saying trust them and just play it, the only thing i'm saying is be a rational human being and wait AT LEAST until the first stage of what appears to be a 3 month long beta (in which feedback and changes are obviously expected to take place) as opposed to rating a game on outdated alpha content.

     

    To be blunt, wait til the game is closer to its summer release and they've released a playable state with at least half of the levels and combat mechanics included before you rate a game ?/10...

    Oh yes and

     

    ^ That link is of an archer doing a solo levequest at rank 20 in alpha... you really are even more ignorant than you sound when you post links such as this clearly furthering my point that you jumping the gun to bash something instead of evaluating the gameplay and combat system which is party-based based on a video of someone playing solo.

     

    A more simpler analagy, it would be similar to judging the NFL after watching wide receiver drills... One facet of a group dynamic sport which if like i mentioned earlier, you had played ffxi more than a month you would understand that is more akin to what you can expect.

     

    I think you're being just a tad defensive. I did qualify all of my statements with "so far," "at least right now," and other similar things. Perhaps just chill and realize it's some guy on the internet expressing their opinion about what they've seen so far. Your baby will be ok if it's a good game no matter what anyone says.

     

    We'll see how it turns out. Hopefully the combat gets some major upgrades and you are correct that it will add a lot more depth to the strategic quality of combat between now and release. As I've stated before, I'm still skeptical that it's going to be this great and interesting thing based on what we've seen so far and what they've said is coming down the pipeline for the combat.

     

    I also think the analogy would be more like watching a high school football game with the simpler plays and more straightforward offense/defense schemes and that the game needs some more time to bake and become their NFL version of it. 

     

    Edit: Also, watch the end of the video I linked. It is large group combat. So please stop being insulting by telling me I'm ignorant when you are obviously ignorant of the content of the video I posted. I mean... damn, at least watch it once before acting like that.

  • jskeets916jskeets916 Folsom, CAPosts: 154Member
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by jskeets916

    Nobody is saying trust them and just play it, the only thing i'm saying is be a rational human being and wait AT LEAST until the first stage of what appears to be a 3 month long beta (in which feedback and changes are obviously expected to take place) as opposed to rating a game on outdated alpha content.

     

    To be blunt, wait til the game is closer to its summer release and they've released a playable state with at least half of the levels and combat mechanics included before you rate a game ?/10...

    Oh yes and

     

    ^ That link is of an archer doing a solo levequest at rank 20 in alpha... you really are even more ignorant than you sound when you post links such as this clearly furthering my point that you jumping the gun to bash something instead of evaluating the gameplay and combat system which is party-based based on a video of someone playing solo.

     

    A more simpler analagy, it would be similar to judging the NFL after watching wide receiver drills... One facet of a group dynamic sport which if like i mentioned earlier, you had played ffxi more than a month you would understand that is more akin to what you can expect.

     

    I think you're being just a tad defensive. I did qualify all of my statements with "so far," "at least right now," and other similar things. Perhaps just chill and realize it's some guy on the internet expressing their opinion about what they've seen so far. Your baby will be ok if it's a good game no matter what anyone says.

     

    We'll see how it turns out. Hopefully the combat gets some major upgrades and you are correct that it will add a lot more depth to the strategic quality of combat between now and release. As I've stated before, I'm still skeptical that it's going to be this great and interesting thing based on what we've seen so far and what they've said is coming down the pipeline for the combat.

     

    I also think the analogy would be more like watching a high school football game with the simpler plays and more straightforward offense/defense schemes and that the game needs some more time to bake and become their NFL version of it. 

     

    Edit: Also, watch the end of the video I linked. It is large group combat. So please stop being insulting by telling me I'm ignorant when you are obviously ignorant of the content of the video I posted. I mean... damn, at least watch it once before acting like that.

    Hmmm tough don't know where to start, but i guess i'd note that i've watched the video (several times before you linked it) and how many times do i need to point out that they are level 20... in alpha...?

     

    Is that a complicated concept?

     

    Furthermore what class did you play in ffxi? did you get anything 75? Refresh, SATA, these things mean anything to you?

    Probably not but if you had you'd understand im illustrating the point that SE's previous titles have focused on group based progression developing and in these instances not until at least level 35.  Previous to these levels (seeing as how the progression was much slower) the fights were much more mindless and less strategy oriented, similar to what your video link represents.

     

    So get your facts straight before you try to flip the ignorance card your easy to spot with your strawman's.

     

    Oh and lastly amending my analogy to "simpler plays" is a gross misrepresentation, considering if what SE claims is to be true, these mechanics are going to completely rework the design of all fights (or sport if we are sticking to the analogy).  While i see how you point out the fact various jobs are present, a water-downed alpha with each class not having developed even through half of their progressions clearly gives you no indication of what to expect at 50 with these major mechanics in place.

     

    Nice try tho

     
     
     
  • daltaniousdaltanious waPosts: 2,143Member Uncommon
    Original was terrible fail but I can't again barely wait to buy.
  • SkuallSkuall UnknowPosts: 1,282Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jskeets916
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by jskeets916

    Nobody is saying trust them and just play it, the only thing i'm saying is be a rational human being and wait AT LEAST until the first stage of what appears to be a 3 month long beta (in which feedback and changes are obviously expected to take place) as opposed to rating a game on outdated alpha content.

     

    To be blunt, wait til the game is closer to its summer release and they've released a playable state with at least half of the levels and combat mechanics included before you rate a game ?/10...

    Oh yes and

     

    ^ That link is of an archer doing a solo levequest at rank 20 in alpha... you really are even more ignorant than you sound when you post links such as this clearly furthering my point that you jumping the gun to bash something instead of evaluating the gameplay and combat system which is party-based based on a video of someone playing solo.

     

    A more simpler analagy, it would be similar to judging the NFL after watching wide receiver drills... One facet of a group dynamic sport which if like i mentioned earlier, you had played ffxi more than a month you would understand that is more akin to what you can expect.

     

    I think you're being just a tad defensive. I did qualify all of my statements with "so far," "at least right now," and other similar things. Perhaps just chill and realize it's some guy on the internet expressing their opinion about what they've seen so far. Your baby will be ok if it's a good game no matter what anyone says.

     

    We'll see how it turns out. Hopefully the combat gets some major upgrades and you are correct that it will add a lot more depth to the strategic quality of combat between now and release. As I've stated before, I'm still skeptical that it's going to be this great and interesting thing based on what we've seen so far and what they've said is coming down the pipeline for the combat.

     

    I also think the analogy would be more like watching a high school football game with the simpler plays and more straightforward offense/defense schemes and that the game needs some more time to bake and become their NFL version of it. 

     

    Edit: Also, watch the end of the video I linked. It is large group combat. So please stop being insulting by telling me I'm ignorant when you are obviously ignorant of the content of the video I posted. I mean... damn, at least watch it once before acting like that.

    Hmmm tough don't know where to start, but i guess i'd note that i've watched the video (several times before you linked it) and how many times do i need to point out that they are level 20... in alpha...?

     

    Is that a complicated concept?

     

    Furthermore what class did you play in ffxi? did you get anything 75? Refresh, SATA, these things mean anything to you?

    Probably not but if you had you'd understand im illustrating the point that SE's previous titles have focused on group based progression developing and in these instances not until at least level 35.  Previous to these levels (seeing as how the progression was much slower) the fights were much more mindless and less strategy oriented, similar to what your video link represents.

     

    So get your facts straight before you try to flip the ignorance card your easy to spot with your strawman's.

     

    Oh and lastly amending my analogy to "simpler plays" is a gross misrepresentation, considering if what SE claims is to be true, these mechanics are going to completely rework the design of all fights (or sport if we are sticking to the analogy).  While i see how you point out the fact various jobs are present, a water-downed alpha with each class not having developed even through half of their progressions clearly gives you no indication of what to expect at 50 with these major mechanics in place.

     

    Nice try tho

     
     
     

     

    if battles are going to be kinda like FFXIV 1.0 or FFXI ....good!

     

    and yeah FFXI had awesome boos battles (the 1 i remember the most was the batlle on the ship (cop 6.4 ) what an awesome fight! , 1 boss after another w/o resting !  1 of the most hard fight i have done in a mmorpg , and im talking "prenerf" , and i wasnt even the healer or the tank , i was playing a Smn at the time so much fun

     

  • AldersAlders Jack Burton'sPosts: 1,857Member Uncommon

    Except every battle in XI was terrible, minus Ixion and PW.  When the combat mechanics limit you so much, you get what we got though.

    I really feel like SE has finally caught up to combat from 3-4 years ago.  I'm fine with slower combat but I' m also personally bored with stationary combat.

    I'd like to see more casting and ability use on the move and less fancy animations for self buffs that just take up combat time.

    It's definitely a step in the right direction and i am impressed, but it's not there yet.

  • znaiikaznaiika denver, PAPosts: 203Member
    Originally posted by vandal5627
    Originally posted by Scellow
    An Amazing game , with an old-school boutton masher gameplay ... so sad
     
    This game need an Action gameplay !
     

     Name a game where you don't mash buttons to play :)

     

    Skyrim is the one, I hope ESO would be similar as Skyrim.

     

  • AlberelAlberel LondonPosts: 1,121Member
    Originally posted by znaiika
    Originally posted by vandal5627
    Originally posted by Scellow
    An Amazing game , with an old-school boutton masher gameplay ... so sad
     
    This game need an Action gameplay !
     

     Name a game where you don't mash buttons to play :)

     

    Skyrim is the one, I hope ESO would be similar as Skyrim.

     

    You're aware that ESO is just a generic MMO set in the TES universe right? Beyond the lore it has nothing at all in common with the single player games so I wouldn't get your hopes up for similar combat.

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