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Served on a golden platter generation

TorgrimTorgrim GothenburgPosts: 2,088Member

Why do game developers listen to these punks who want everything served on a golden platter with little effort needed and in the same time these people will leave after the first month anyway to scourge the forums for the next big hit.

Since when did the lazy carrot on a stick kids and I got a job,a wife and 2 children gamers have more power than the average gamer?

I'm not that good with numbers but boxsales versus develop time don't always equal profit.

Profit with boxsales AND keep them subs for months are the real profit in both long term and short term.

Do studios enjoy losing money?, They must, due to how the games been doing for the past 7 years except GW2.

It's a really weird cycle that has evolved, and it looks like It won't stop anytime soon.

If it's not broken, you are not innovating.

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Comments

  • MuppetierMuppetier SouthamptonPosts: 277Member
    Originally posted by Torgrim

    Do studios enjoy losing money?, They must, due to how the games been doing for the past 7 years except GW2.

     

     

    2010 MMO Industry worth $8 Billion

    2012 MMO Industry worth $12 Billion

    2015 MMO Industry worth $17 Billion (estimated)

     

    Not losing as much money as you might think.

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    What is this thread about (aside from the usual bashing)?

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • madazzmadazz A town, ONPosts: 1,564Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Muppetier
    Originally posted by Torgrim

    Do studios enjoy losing money?, They must, due to how the games been doing for the past 7 years except GW2.

     

     

    2010 MMO Industry worth $8 Billion

    2012 MMO Industry worth $12 Billion

    2015 MMO Industry worth $17 Billion (estimated)

     

    Not losing as much money as you might think.

    Not trying to argue the ops point, but worth does not mean success.

  • Slappy1Slappy1 columbus, OHPosts: 458Member
    Originally posted by Muppetier
    Originally posted by Torgrim

    Do studios enjoy losing money?, They must, due to how the games been doing for the past 7 years except GW2.

     

     

    2010 MMO Industry worth $8 Billion

    2012 MMO Industry worth $12 Billion

    2015 MMO Industry worth $17 Billion (estimated)

     

    Not losing as much money as you might think.

    I'd say much of that is related to many people from the Xbox/Ps3 crowd converting over to the pc platform the years after WOW was out.At the same time you have many,many,many more people touting b2p and ftp as the way to go.They're so used to spending money on dlc that they don't realize that b2p/ftp can cost much more.

    The mmo market adjust's and now you have a bunch of game's cashing in.Honestly,out of all the AAA mmo's out are any actually losing money?I seriously doubt it,even Swtor with it's huge budget is probably in the black or close to it.

    So 2015 est $17 billion,wouldn't surprise me at all for mmo's.

    Some day I'm going to put a sword through your eye and out the back of your skull!

    Arya Stark

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member
    Throwing around insults is a path to winning friends?
  • ezpz77ezpz77 Beale, CAPosts: 227Member
    Originally posted by madazz
    Originally posted by Muppetier
    Originally posted by Torgrim

    Do studios enjoy losing money?, They must, due to how the games been doing for the past 7 years except GW2.

     

     

    2010 MMO Industry worth $8 Billion

    2012 MMO Industry worth $12 Billion

    2015 MMO Industry worth $17 Billion (estimated)

     

    Not losing as much money as you might think.

    Not trying to argue the ops point, but worth does not mean success.

     

    It pretty clearly does in the case of MMO's. Where do you think the $4 billion hike came from going from 2010 to 2012? More players spending more money. Presumably, these games have been successful if more people are willingly paying to play. Every year a new generation of players become enthralled by these games and the old bitter burned out vets go to MMORPG.com to post about the golden era of MMO's.

    I'm guessing the OP is one of those old bitter burned out vets.

  • Beatnik59Beatnik59 Chicago, ILPosts: 2,231Member Uncommon
    Spending years and years, and hundreds upon hundreds of dollars, didn't save the die hard CoH fans from the axe.  It ain't enough anymore to pay your MMO's bills.  You have to constantly deliver fresh bodies and wallets to Mammon, or he will take away your fun.

    __________________________
    "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
    --Arcken

    "...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
    --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.

    "It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
    --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE

  • Goatgod76Goatgod76 Stow, OHPosts: 1,214Member
    Originally posted by Torgrim

    Why do game developers listen to these punks who want everything served on a golden platter with little effort needed and in the same time these people will leave after the first month anyway to scourge the forums for the next big hit.

    Since when did the lazy carrot on a stick kids and I got a job,a wife and 2 children gamers have more power than the average gamer?

    I'm not that good with numbers but boxsales versus develop time don't always equal profit.

    Profit with boxsales AND keep them subs for months are the real profit in both long term and short term.

    Do studios enjoy losing money?, They must, due to how the games been doing for the past 7 years except GW2.

    It's a really weird cycle that has evolved, and it looks like It won't stop anytime soon.

    You are either trolling, or a glutten for punishment. Hope you are wearing a fire retardant suit.

  • ScorchienScorchien Hatboro, PAPosts: 1,342Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Torgrim

    Why do game developers listen to these punks who want everything served on a golden platter with little effort needed and in the same time these people will leave after the first month anyway to scourge the forums for the next big hit.

    Since when did the lazy carrot on a stick kids and I got a job,a wife and 2 children gamers have more power than the average gamer?

    I'm not that good with numbers but boxsales versus develop time don't always equal profit.

    Profit with boxsales AND keep them subs for months are the real profit in both long term and short term.

    Do studios enjoy losing money?, They must, due to how the games been doing for the past 7 years except GW2.

    It's a really weird cycle that has evolved, and it looks like It won't stop anytime soon.

      lol .. wth ya mean except GW2 .. , and believe me i think yer right , but friend GW2 is the cherry on top of that sundae..

     

      Anet went out of there way to cater to the Xbox Generation of Gimme-Bears , and produced the most sterile bunch of classes(i m nt sure we can even call them classes) in any MMO ... They completely sold out to the crowd of " If he/she can do it , i very well should be able to also, and if something is to hard make it easier for me.."

  • EnerzealEnerzeal WarringtonPosts: 326Member

    The world is golden platter now, people want without hardship. Face facts, this is the world we live in now, this is what we have to deal with, the easier it is, the more inclined to spend more time "winning" at it. My advice is to support the indy tittles and hope you find a stable niche home to live out your days.

  • Goatgod76Goatgod76 Stow, OHPosts: 1,214Member
    Originally posted by Enerzeal

    The world is golden platter now, people want without hardship. Face facts, this is the world we live in now, this is what we have to deal with, the easier it is, the more inclined to spend more time "winning" at it. My advice is to support the indy tittles and hope you find a stable niche home to live out your days.

    Sadly true it appears...more and more each year.

  • NovusodNovusod Lakewood, NJPosts: 892Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Muppetier
    Originally posted by Torgrim

    Do studios enjoy losing money?, They must, due to how the games been doing for the past 7 years except GW2.

     

     

    2010 MMO Industry worth $8 Billion

    2012 MMO Industry worth $12 Billion

    2015 MMO Industry worth $17 Billion (estimated)

     

    Not losing as much money as you might think.

    That looks like revenue numbers not profits.

    Profit = Revenue - Costs

    I heard SWTOR cost over 300 million to make. Something tells me that MMO just is not profitable.

    Compared to say EQ2 which was made for less than 30 million in 2004 and has 100k+ subs for for 8 years had to have made much more money in the long term.

    I don't know what Everquest 1 cost to make but they have had 100k+ subs for 13 years and 17 paid expansions. Bet dollars to doughnuts they were making money hand over fist for years.

    Just because revenue has gone up does not mean the MMO industry has become more successful.

  • OnomasOnomas Rock Hill, SCPosts: 1,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ezpz77

    I'm guessing the OP is one of those old bitter burned out vets.

    Bad terminology. You are 33, im 38, you arent that much younger ;)

    Bitter burnt out? No more like experienced and all knowing. We seen how it was, how it is, and how it will be while the younger crowd are too busy looking at eye candy and story lines ;) Vets are your forefathers of mmorpg's with a good bit of knowledge and understanding of how things are.

    Shouldnt jump to conclusions like that.

    Fact is the industry is in a rut, people bicker over trivial things, and mass releases of bad games are rampant. It needs changes to either back to what it was or something new. Not what we have now.

    See not bitter at all, wanting the best for our games and industry is not bitter nor burnt out.

  • IchmenIchmen Winnipeg, MBPosts: 1,228Member

    i mostly blame the easier to play games like WoW that pretty much allowed 90yr granies to get in and master the game. it removed the drive to improve and grow with the game instead they get an instant win game. 

    now everything from RTS to FPS are following that same drive, people want games that are fun.. but dont want to actually work at it to make it fun. there by they cut out everything that older gamers find fun... in lue of fun O-o... 

     

    like1995 you found it fun to forage mats and then spend 8hrs building a house.  fast forward ... people hate foraging for mats and wasting 8hrs to build it.. now you go to an npc and give it a sucky sucky and bam it sells you mats and builds the house for you instantly.

     

    and it will only get worse unless people stop playing those easier games. (it also explains why facebook and tablet games are becoming more popular... and why people want X game on X tablet system instead of on its intended system...)

     

    sure i love golden plater games but as someone who grew up in the 80s i rather enjoy foraging for crap to make a fire or craft a sword not a super huge fan of buying/selling to an npc for a weapon kinda takes half the fun and thrill of making that weapon/item enjoyable

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  • KarteliKarteli Providence, PAPosts: 2,646Member
    Originally posted by Torgrim

    Why do game developers listen to these punks who want everything served on a golden platter with little effort needed and in the same time these people will leave after the first month anyway to scourge the forums for the next big hit.

    Since when did the lazy carrot on a stick kids and I got a job,a wife and 2 children gamers have more power than the average gamer?

    I'm not that good with numbers but boxsales versus develop time don't always equal profit.

    Profit with boxsales AND keep them subs for months are the real profit in both long term and short term.

    Do studios enjoy losing money?, They must, due to how the games been doing for the past 7 years except GW2.

    It's a really weird cycle that has evolved, and it looks like It won't stop anytime soon.

    Ahh because the casuals that have infatuated the market insist that they have lives and jobs, and can't possibly justify the time spent to play a quality MMO (thus MMO's get dumbed down to their level).

     

    I blame the industry [certain companies actually] for attracting people who hate video games into actually playing video games.

     

    People who hate video games will contintinue to play, but not out of the love for gaming ... other factors, like friends, family, social status, etc.

     

    I think it's a big fault on gaming developers ..  I dunno .. it's another discussion, now that I think about it.  The damage was already done, though, Blizzard.

    Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
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    Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

  • c0existc0exist Round Rock, TXPosts: 192Member
    theres no sense of accomplishment in these newer games if youve got a weekend to burn you can beat these newer mmo's.  would these companies rather have millions of subs that play for 3 months and abandon the game or a significantly smaller amount of subs that play for 5-10 years.  quicker money with the first option but more money and brand building with the second.
  • ezpz77ezpz77 Beale, CAPosts: 227Member
    Originally posted by Onomas
    Originally posted by ezpz77

    I'm guessing the OP is one of those old bitter burned out vets.

    Bad terminology. You are 33, im 38, you arent that much younger ;)

    Bitter burnt out? No more like experienced and all knowing. We seen how it was, how it is, and how it will be while the younger crowd are too busy looking at eye candy and story lines ;) Vets are your forefathers of mmorpg's with a good bit of knowledge and understanding of how things are.

    Shouldnt jump to conclusions like that.

    Fact is the industry is in a rut, people bicker over trivial things, and mass releases of bad games are rampant. It needs changes to either back to what it was or something new. Not what we have now.

    See not bitter at all, wanting the best for our games and industry is not bitter nor burnt out.

     

    I think the recent games are pretty good and the genre is in a better state today than it ever has been.

    You're an experienced, all knowing, forefather of MMORPG's, but your experiences are your own. Your knowledge is completely biased, and calling yourself a forefather of the genre is laughable. The word "fact" implies absolute truth. The word you're looking for is "opinion."

    You presume to speak for the entirety of the market on what the future of these game should be when there are plenty of people who are perfectly happy with the way things are. You're the one telling me I shouldn't jump to conclusions, but I see you doing the exact same thing.

  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,918Member Uncommon

    Free market economy.  Developer publishers are in business to generate revenue.  They develop and publish based on market demand.  At least they try to.

     

    If mainstream consumers want to buy a certain type of game, that's exactly what the mainstream publishers will offer (or try to, sometimes they really miscalculate market demand).

     

    If mainstream isn't what you're looking for, check out the Indie offerings.  Indies can risk niche market sub-genres because development and promotional costs are significantly less.  A few might even be worth playing *grin*.

     


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now turned Amateur Game Developer.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  Realm Lords 2 on MMORPG.com
  • OnomasOnomas Rock Hill, SCPosts: 1,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ezpz77
    Originally posted by Onomas
    Originally posted by ezpz77

    I'm guessing the OP is one of those old bitter burned out vets.

    Bad terminology. You are 33, im 38, you arent that much younger ;)

    Bitter burnt out? No more like experienced and all knowing. We seen how it was, how it is, and how it will be while the younger crowd are too busy looking at eye candy and story lines ;) Vets are your forefathers of mmorpg's with a good bit of knowledge and understanding of how things are.

    Shouldnt jump to conclusions like that.

    Fact is the industry is in a rut, people bicker over trivial things, and mass releases of bad games are rampant. It needs changes to either back to what it was or something new. Not what we have now.

    See not bitter at all, wanting the best for our games and industry is not bitter nor burnt out.

     

    I think the recent games are pretty good and the genre is in a better state today than it ever has been.

    You're an experienced, all knowing, forefather of MMORPG's, but your experiences are your own. Your knowledge is completely biased, and calling yourself a forefather of the genre is laughable. The word "fact" implies absolute truth. The word you're looking for is "opinion."

    You presume to speak for the entirety of the market on what the future of these game should be when there are plenty of people who are perfectly happy with the way things are. You're the one telling me I shouldn't jump to conclusions, but I see you doing the exact same thing.

    Again you jump to conclusions. First i never called myself a vet nor the forefather of mmo's.

    You are grasping for straws just like your bad terminology.

  • ezpz77ezpz77 Beale, CAPosts: 227Member
    Originally posted by Onomas
    Originally posted by ezpz77
    Originally posted by Onomas
    Originally posted by ezpz77

    I'm guessing the OP is one of those old bitter burned out vets.

    Bad terminology. You are 33, im 38, you arent that much younger ;)

    Bitter burnt out? No more like experienced and all knowing. We seen how it was, how it is, and how it will be while the younger crowd are too busy looking at eye candy and story lines ;) Vets are your forefathers of mmorpg's with a good bit of knowledge and understanding of how things are.

    Shouldnt jump to conclusions like that.

    Fact is the industry is in a rut, people bicker over trivial things, and mass releases of bad games are rampant. It needs changes to either back to what it was or something new. Not what we have now.

    See not bitter at all, wanting the best for our games and industry is not bitter nor burnt out.

     

    I think the recent games are pretty good and the genre is in a better state today than it ever has been.

    You're an experienced, all knowing, forefather of MMORPG's, but your experiences are your own. Your knowledge is completely biased, and calling yourself a forefather of the genre is laughable. The word "fact" implies absolute truth. The word you're looking for is "opinion."

    You presume to speak for the entirety of the market on what the future of these game should be when there are plenty of people who are perfectly happy with the way things are. You're the one telling me I shouldn't jump to conclusions, but I see you doing the exact same thing.

    Again you jump to conclusions. First i never called myself a vet nor the forefather of mmo's.

    You are grasping for straws just like your bad terminology.

     

    When you use words like "we" and "us" in writing it implies that you are a part of something. In this case, it was being a veteran of the genre.

    First, you tell me that a vet is experienced and all knowing. Then you identify yourself with them by saying, "We seen how it was, how it is, and how it will be... "

    Later, you go on to describe vets as forefathers of the genre by saying, "Vets are your forefathers of mmorpg's... "

    In your last sentence, you again identify yourself with a vet by using the word "our."

    I don't have to grasp for anything. You wrote the post.

    You also failed to respond to the main argument of my post. We can agree to disagree. I'm fine with leaving it at that.

  • OnomasOnomas Rock Hill, SCPosts: 1,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ezpz77
    Originally posted by Onomas
    Originally posted by ezpz77
    Originally posted by Onomas
    Originally posted by ezpz77

    I'm guessing the OP is one of those old bitter burned out vets.

    Bad terminology. You are 33, im 38, you arent that much younger ;)

    Bitter burnt out? No more like experienced and all knowing. We The gamers no mention of vets here seen how it was, how it is, and how it will be while the younger crowd are too busy looking at eye candy and story lines ;) Vets No mention of me being one are your forefathers of mmorpg's with a good bit of knowledge and understanding of how things are.

    Shouldnt jump to conclusions like that.

    Fact is the industry is in a rut, people bicker over trivial things, and mass releases of bad games are rampant. It needs changes to either back to what it was or something new. Not what we have now.

    See not bitter at all, wanting the best for our the cmmunity, you me, us, everyone games and industry is not bitter nor burnt out.

     

    I think the recent games are pretty good and the genre is in a better state today than it ever has been.

    You're an experienced, all knowing, forefather of MMORPG's, but your experiences are your own. Your knowledge is completely biased, and calling yourself a forefather of the genre is laughable. The word "fact" implies absolute truth. The word you're looking for is "opinion."

    You presume to speak for the entirety of the market on what the future of these game should be when there are plenty of people who are perfectly happy with the way things are. You're the one telling me I shouldn't jump to conclusions, but I see you doing the exact same thing.

    Again you jump to conclusions. First i never called myself a vet nor the forefather of mmo's.

    You are grasping for straws just like your bad terminology.

     

    When you use words like "we" and "us" in writing it implies that you are a part of something. In this case, it was being a veteran of the genre.

    First, you tell me that a vet is experienced and all knowing. Then you identify yourself with them by saying, "We seen how it was, how it is, and how it will be... "

    Later, you go on to describe vets as forefathers of the genre by saying, "Vets are your forefathers of mmorpg's... "

    In your last sentence, you again identify yourself with a vet by using the word "our."

    I don't have to grasp for anything. You wrote the post.

    You also failed to respond to the main argument of my post. We can agree to disagree. I'm fine with leaving it at that.

    I added some i red to help clarify for those that have to look to deep to grasp for straws. Unless you dont want the best for your games or the industry then you can remove the "you" part. We again as gamers, so you arent confused have seen what was, is, and will be in this rut if it doesnt change. Not an english class so i realy dont go into the proper use of pronouns.

    So back to topic shall we.

     

  • ezpz77ezpz77 Beale, CAPosts: 227Member
    Originally posted by Onomas
    Originally posted by ezpz77
    Originally posted by Onomas
    Originally posted by ezpz77
    Originally posted by Onomas
    Originally posted by ezpz77

    I'm guessing the OP is one of those old bitter burned out vets.

    Bad terminology. You are 33, im 38, you arent that much younger ;)

    Bitter burnt out? No more like experienced and all knowing. We The gamers no mention of vets here seen how it was, how it is, and how it will be while the younger crowd are too busy looking at eye candy and story lines ;) Vets No mention of me being one are your forefathers of mmorpg's with a good bit of knowledge and understanding of how things are.

    Shouldnt jump to conclusions like that.

    Fact is the industry is in a rut, people bicker over trivial things, and mass releases of bad games are rampant. It needs changes to either back to what it was or something new. Not what we have now.

    See not bitter at all, wanting the best for our the cmmunity, you me, us, everyone games and industry is not bitter nor burnt out.

     

    I think the recent games are pretty good and the genre is in a better state today than it ever has been.

    You're an experienced, all knowing, forefather of MMORPG's, but your experiences are your own. Your knowledge is completely biased, and calling yourself a forefather of the genre is laughable. The word "fact" implies absolute truth. The word you're looking for is "opinion."

    You presume to speak for the entirety of the market on what the future of these game should be when there are plenty of people who are perfectly happy with the way things are. You're the one telling me I shouldn't jump to conclusions, but I see you doing the exact same thing.

    Again you jump to conclusions. First i never called myself a vet nor the forefather of mmo's.

    You are grasping for straws just like your bad terminology.

     

    When you use words like "we" and "us" in writing it implies that you are a part of something. In this case, it was being a veteran of the genre.

    First, you tell me that a vet is experienced and all knowing. Then you identify yourself with them by saying, "We seen how it was, how it is, and how it will be... "

    Later, you go on to describe vets as forefathers of the genre by saying, "Vets are your forefathers of mmorpg's... "

    In your last sentence, you again identify yourself with a vet by using the word "our."

    I don't have to grasp for anything. You wrote the post.

    You also failed to respond to the main argument of my post. We can agree to disagree. I'm fine with leaving it at that.

    I added some i red to help clarify for those that have to look to deep to grasp for straws. Unless you dont want the best for your games or the industry then you can remove the "you" part. We again as gamers, so you arent confused have seen what was, is, and will be in this rut if it doesnt change. Not an english class so i realy dont go into the proper use of pronouns.

    So back to topic shall we.

     

     

    You can't speak on behalf of gamers. You can only speak on behalf of yourself.

  • OnomasOnomas Rock Hill, SCPosts: 1,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ezpz77

    You can't speak on behalf of gamers. You can only speak on behalf of yourself.

    When more than a few people are wanting the same thing, experienced the same thing, and have the same opinions then yes you can speak on the behalf of the group. To obmit everyone from the group because you can only speak on behalf of yourself would kind of destroy basic communication Its why we have adverbs, pronouns, nouns, etc.. Just as someone can use me in their topic using the "us, we. our" pronouns when our common goals are the same. Standard use of the english language.

    And since many here and myself have the same opinions and ideas then it is more than standard. Even people that dont agree or have smae logic you arent going to label them individualy, you normaly say them, ya'll, those, etc...

    Just as if i was speaking to someone outside of the mmorpg community i would say we talk and discuss many things on the forums. I wouldnt say ezpz77, 50 other peoples names, and myself talk and discuss many things on the forums.

    But you have no problem speaking on behalf of gamers when you call everyone burnt out bitter old people, but i cant? Atleast my words are standard english and not attacks on people that you dont agree with.

  • ezpz77ezpz77 Beale, CAPosts: 227Member
    Originally posted by Onomas
    Originally posted by ezpz77

    You can't speak on behalf of gamers. You can only speak on behalf of yourself.

    When more than a few people are wanting the same thing, experienced the same thing, and have the same opinions then yes you can speak on the behalf of the group. To obmit everyone from the group because you can only speak on behalf of yourself would kind of destroy basic communication Its why we have adverbs, pronouns, nouns, etc.. Just as someone can use me in their topic using the "us, we. our" pronouns when our common goals are the same. Standard use of the english language.

    And since many here and myself have the same opinions and ideas then it is more than standard. Even people that dont agree or have smae logic you arent going to label them individualy, you normaly say them, ya'll, those, etc...

    Just as if i was speaking to someone outside of the mmorpg community i would say we talk and discuss many things on the forums. I wouldnt say ezpz77, 50 other peoples names, and myself talk and discuss many things on the forums.

    But you have no problem speaking on behalf of gamers when you call everyone burnt out bitter old people, but i cant? Atleast my words are standard english and not attacks on people that you dont agree with.

     

    I didn't call everyone burned out bitter old people. Only certain people. The people that constantly drone on and on about how the genre is dying and how recent MMO's are all trash are usually the burned out bitter old people. The people complaining about instant gratification and entitlement in today's MMO's usually fall into that classification as well. It's like listening to a bunch of old men bitch about how new stuff sucks.

  • BurntvetBurntvet Baltimore, MDPosts: 2,941Member Uncommon

    A big part of the problem as I see it is this....

    People that want a well made, themepark, guided content, relatively time efficient game can have that. Such games tend to have less depth than older MMOs, but have nice graphics, a slick interface and very easy to do quests and game play. I could name half a dozen major titles released in the last six years to meet those criteria. And really, there is nothing wrong with that per se.

    But what if you don't want that?

    What if you want a deeper experience? Better, meaningful crafting? Compelling non-combat play? Social tools?

    Then you get nothing (if you are not an EvE fan, at least).

    If the market is so big, and expanding, why are there not well made titles for people that do not want the "industry standard" MMO experience? And want something closer to what UO/original SWG (as examples) provided?

    A big fat NADA is what such players get. 

    That is the problem.

    That is why many gamers that enjoy deeper game play often complain about the shallow crap that keeps getting put out over and over.

    Because there is no alternative. (That is not an underfunded, indie POS.)

     

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