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Another vote for GuildWars 1. Tons of depth and complexity.
Honorable mention to WoW for the need to setup rotations and manage cooldowns. Unfortunately the player element of combat was reduced by the macro system and FOTM builds.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
Since this is clearly an opinion thread ill give mine. To me the most polished combat is in WoW. But the one i like the most is in Age of Conan. If TSW had AoC combat (mechanics and polishness) i would say TSW, but as of now its the worst combat mechanic IMO (both unpolished, clunky, and boring with the build build build, finish, rinse and repeat with every skill). I play it from time to time but combat is the only reason i dont log in more often to TSW.
Of the MMOs I have played I currently prefer AoC due to its nature in active combat if you choose a melee class. Caster classes have some spellweaving but It`s not the same as a melee class there.
Log on a pvp server if you want to see what the most trained ones can do, its amazing to see a low lvl actually beat a higher lvl just due to skills, and not just gear. But I think the PvE servers are the most populated these days there, but there is pvp there also.
Guild Wars 1 is not a real MMO, but if it counts, I vote for it.
Other than that, I don't know. I hate the HOTBARS AND MILLIONS OF BUTTONS EVERYWHERE systems most MMOs seem to use, so I'd be practically stuck between choosing GW2 and TSW. GW2 is fun and fluid and has a lot of hidden depth, but is also too... constrained, perhaps? It doesn't have that many different mechanics. TSW has lots of skills and tries to be like GW1, but doesn't do well enough and feels slow and clunky.
the best way to kill a troll is to FLAME ON! ...or with acid...
Originally posted by Harmstrong Of every single MMO on the market or in beta, which has the most evolved combat mechanics. What I mean by this is what game has the largest set of functional combat mechanisms? What non-fps mmo would you describe as the most skill dependent? How many buttons and/or hotkeys does it take to implement the full set of features for any particular class? Cheers, Harmstrong
I think Asheron's Call 1 has the most robust combat mechanics, when monsters or players are firing at you, say arrows, crossbow bolts or magic spells you can dodge them, not insta pathed to you, also means you have to time and calculate your own attacks!
heres a few videos of examples I could find
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaHsHnDG07c ~ War Magic skills
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhLdzvLtemQ ~ Missile skill ( bow in this example, throwing weapons and crossbow also play differently )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPj9wI7m1B8 ~ Melee skill example ( dagger, all melees play differently )
With the physics mechanics, and the ability for all players to heal themselves generally the outcome of any battle is changing many ways, combine that with openworlds, lack of zoning, great landscapes and structures with real time combat and you have your self a awesomely paced, and enjoyable game.
Best thing to do is give it a shot and keep practicing! A level 10 can beat a level 35 with using "player skill" in dodging and attacking! or any level range really be it a level 126 vs a 275!
I am very surprised no one has mentioned Tera.
My attacks have to be timed perfectly, sometimes leading the target, if I attack I am animation locked, I can't just bail out of it and react straight away, I can leave my self wide open. This also gives rise to faking attacks, so that you can tempt your enemy into a long attack chain and score a perfect counter attack. Most abilities can be dodged or shielded. It is very fluid and smooth.
TSW does NOT have the best combat, it has a good system for putting your character together, but one you've selected your abilities there is very little in the way of tactics when it comes down to the crunch. I bow my head to its significant skill tree and many thousands of builds, but good combat? Not a chance.
I will bow my head to WoW, its skill curve is in the execution, not so much in the build. Even since the change of talents there is very few ways to change up a Demonology Warlock for example.
Now having played this next game, regardless of its release status I feel I can list it.
Archeage features a very indepth skill tree even more expansive than TSW. It doesn't limit skills or spell to a short 7 either. It has as many as you have skill points (assuming you didn't fill up on passives, even then you should atleast have about 20 or so abilities, all handpicked.
You see Archeage has a talent tree for each of its 10 specs (you select three of them and invest the limited talent points across all three) the trees are based on level, no prequisite talent. If you want a skill halfway down, but haven't taken anything yet, you can grab it regardless, which makes for untold build oppertunities.
Archeage also promotes synergy between others, certain spell effects are only triggered by having someone else there to perform a linking abilitiy.
Where as you guys boast the tactical bonuses of having 7 ability buttons and hundreds of skill options, Archeage offers the same hundreds of abilities, but doesn't limit buttons, allowing for a vastly increased tactical palette.
The combat is fast paced, but not so much that there isn't time for you to protect yourself from ganks.
It's smooth, and fluid, well animated, and looks beautiful.
I don't blame people for not picking this one because only a small handful of westerners have got their hands on it but, my pick is Archeage.
Originally posted by ArChWind Non-FPS? Best unique combat that is very fluid. Almost addicting becasue it requires real player skill? If you're skilled enough you can beat 24 man raid content solo? Vindictus. Nothing else comes close. To bad it is run by a company that just doesn't know how to run a game.
+1 on Vindictus.
If 'robust' means lots of buttons, then I'd say go with WoW... plenty of whackamole to be enjoyed across 3-5 hotbars in that game. However, if we're talking about movement, flow, co-operative gameplay, positioning of character, positioning of attack and everything other than a Wurlitzer-sized hotbar, Vindictus is really up there.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
"To be what you are not, experience what you are not." -Saint John of the CrossAuthored 131 missions in Vendetta OnlineCheck it out on Steam
Originally posted by mindw0rk Why so many people consider GW1 hard to master? I remember when I started playing it, Ive made max level monk, put some skills on hotbar and after 2 hours of arena matches I was fairly confident in my healer/support abilities. Now try to heal with shaman or priest in WoW if you never played the game before.
Oh please. I jumped on my partners priest having never played one before and was doing arenas super easy, just spam those heals and run around corners to avoid interrupts.
GW1 on the other hand, try taking a monk into a proper PvP tournament and if your team isn't working to protect you from mesmers and interrupt rangers you will get destroyed violently.
The team work and diversity in builds in GW1 were second to none. Although it isnt a true MMO per se, and GW2 doesnt really inherit its depth.
Originally posted by Phaserlight Ask a room full of people this question and you're likely to get as many answers as there are people playing games. Might as well face it; it's a popularity contest. I've always found VO to have the best combat mechanics out of any game I've tried, simply because it's based on Newtonian physics with very few magical barriers. The magic is in how you play the game. I may be speaking to the wrong audience, but for anyone who has experienced downhill longboarding or powder riding, the combat in VO at its best carries a similar feeling.
Vendetta Online? The combat is definitely fun, and the cap ship battles are something I think every MMO gamer should experience at least once, but it is still extremely basic in both features and function. I can think of a lot of positive words for VO's combat, but robust isn't one of them.
This is an interesting topic.
You speak of "skill dependent", but you only mention one skill - the ability to manage hotbars.
As a non-fps mmo, I still point at DDO. Where does the "skill" level start, you might ask? Well, from the character creation of course. You need to have a solid idea of what you're building towards and how to do it in the given ruleset/mechanics. Since you are free to mix and match your classes, those four levels of fighter or barbarian mixed in with a full ranger might just be better than a pure ranger.
For combat you need the knowledge of ruleset too - as in, monsters (vulnerabilities), tactics and how to play your class & how to manage your items. Some people might use a ton of clickies, casting spells through them and what not, but might still perform worse than a good "duelist" who knocks down every possible monster without trouble.
There is also the whole twitch mechanic of needing to know when to dodge and how to for example lead certain spells and/or archery.
However! Enough of that. As my second choise, I'd probably pick Rift if I remember it's mechanics right. Seemed like there were a lot of ways to build your character for specific purposes and it certainly required skill (brains) to think about this. Or you could just trollipop one tree full of skillpoints and play it like WoW, but if memory serves me right again, I think I saw people like that burning first in the invasions.
The combat in Rift was of course simple, but it sure was fun to play as a mix of bard/ranger/blade dancer. And things sure got interesting in PvP where I Always had the Most Healed in the whole match!
We?re all dead, just say it.
Hard to say really. I would say in terms of gameplay that Tera combat is one of the best and take good execution and timing to pull abilities off. Its not really that much in terms of buttons though so in that case it might not be really for you. To me, games that dodge helps amplify difficulty a bit and Tera does an amazing job on this, both making it take thought in using abilities and involving mechanics that no other MMO has been able to reach with the action mmo genre (Granted its pretty much Guildwars 2 as one of the few comparisons but eh).
If leaning at raid focused content, Rift by far has some of the hardest speccs in terms of play style, though it also has some super easy ones. Typically macros are played with a lot in the game but speccs are known to involve non macro use (being impossible without dropping dps). For example my Warrior for 2nd highest dps for class (cutting out the mess specc that isn't suppose to exist) theres ~5 Buffs/debuffs to carefully manage (one being a large damage loss if cut off early) and a lot of it can't be macroed due to having no cool down and/or being a damage loss, with heavy emphasis on follow up attacks which need to be used correctly in time or a loss of dps, forcing a very specific order of damage while also forcing you to maintain the buffs/debuffs which 1 miss step could mean one falls off and drops off damage.
Vanguard or EQ2 ... Both have a lot of skills to work with
Originally posted by Scorchien Originally posted by Harmstrong Of every single MMO on the market or in beta, which has the most evolved combat mechanics. What I mean by this is what game has the largest set of functional combat mechanisms? What non-fps mmo would you describe as the most skill dependent? How many buttons and/or hotkeys does it take to implement the full set of features for any particular class? Cheers, Harmstrong
EQ2 combat devolved into macro spam after RoK.
Vanguard is still interesting though, with counter attacks and combos.
Vanguard has the most complex combat system I've seen anywhere (and I checked out quite a few).
I dont have the time to describe it in detail, but essentially every class has their own view of the game. Numerous techniques exist that the individual class will not manage to find a "routine", i.e. a number of buttons they can just press mindlessly in sequence, to get top efficiency. But for example:
- Whenever you manage a critical hit, depending upon your class, you might have a certain number of options of followup actions, which again might be followed by another action; one class specialization even has four actions they can manage this way (Cleric with the War specialization on critical weapon hits). The sequence is broken if any of your attack misses.
- There are also secondary effects, like Clerics need a melee crit for setting up a quite strong group buff. Or necromancer can put up two special attacks, which set a condition that benefits followup attacks, but they cancel each other out. Paladins and Dread Knights need certain crits for strong selfbuffs, thats why tanks initially might be quite weaker than at a later point of the battle.
- Certain other events may also cause such sequences, such as a successful parry
- Theres also classes that have certain sequences of attacks for extra effects. Thats how a Disiciple sets up almost all of their group buffs, for example. Ranger has a lot of that stuff, too.
- Many classes have point systems of some sort in place. This means there is a counter that goes up and down, depending upon circumstances. Each system works differently. For example, Paladins just get points over time and have to think about how to spend them on certain special abilities. Monks have some attacks that give them points and others than waste them, so its a constant battle for them what to do next; a missed attack wont gain new points, a critical hit will give a lot new points, etc. A Blood Mage is pretty much the same, except they have a pretty low maximum of points and whenever their opponent dies, the counter resets to zero.
- Theres other things, like stances, for even more complexity. For some classes its pretty straightforward - tanks have an damage and a defense stance and one more. For others, its a tough deal - Sorcerers have the choice between more damage or more mana preservation.
- There are synergies present - certain attacks will cause certain conditions on the mob thats attacked. If the player manages to get an matching attack in, there are beneficial effects such as extra damage.
- Certain classes, such as Paladin or Blood Mage, have to choose between alternatives when it comes to buffing others.
The complexity of this system is one of the main reasons why I enjoy Vanguard so much. You never end up in a routine, the action you should use next keeps being a challenging question with no clear answer.
Originally posted by Loktofeit Originally posted by Phaserlight Ask a room full of people this question and you're likely to get as many answers as there are people playing games. Might as well face it; it's a popularity contest. I've always found VO to have the best combat mechanics out of any game I've tried, simply because it's based on Newtonian physics with very few magical barriers. The magic is in how you play the game. I may be speaking to the wrong audience, but for anyone who has experienced downhill longboarding or powder riding, the combat in VO at its best carries a similar feeling.
To me, basic and robust go hand in hand. Something can be incredibly complex, but also terribly convoluted and difficult to understand. Something can also be simple, but hold a lot of depth, and take years to master. Vendetta is in the latter category.
If you're interested in some further exposition of VO's combat mechanics you can find it here:
One small anecdote on VO's combat is that back in the day certain veterans would try to create alts, but would be discovered due to the way they fought. This demonstrates a flourishing of strategy that can only be supported by a robust game. Today the population / churn rate is much greater, but the same mechanics are there.
For me, the honest answer is... World of tanks.
1) Controls that keep out of the way.
In WoT, you essentially have 1 action button (fire). A typical MMO may have 30+ buttons.
So that 1 button becomes vitally important. You decide when to press it, and equally when not to press it.
If you have 30+ buttons, then either most are irrelevant (wasting time/effort for the player) or the game devolves into 'button mashing'.
2) Extreme emphasis on geometry.
In a typical MMO, the landscape is mostly irrelevant, as-is your position. In WoT it is absolutely essential.
Does that make WoT the perfect MMO? Nope, out of combat, it's shallower than a paddling pool... and the whole 'gold ammo' thing is a very bad idea...
But, like XCOM, the game should be studied by designers. A simple game that leads to deep gameplay. Simple to play, hard to master... STO, specifically, is a game that should be learning from it.
People are mistaking the setup (builds, glyphs, talents etc) with actual exectution (the combat mechanics, tab target, aim based, action etc).
In the MMO verse, games like TERA, Vindictus, DragonNest, RaiderZ hold the crown in best combat mechanics.
While games such as ArcheAge, TSW, UO etc would hold the title for best setup.
Stop mistaking the two though.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
Originally posted by Vunak23 People are mistaking the setup (builds, glyphs, talents etc) with actual exectution (the combat mechanics, tab target, aim based, action etc). In the MMO verse, games like TERA, Vindictus, DragonNest, RaiderZ hold the crown in best combat mechanics. While games such as ArcheAge, TSW, UO etc would hold the title for best setup. Stop mistaking the two though.
But wouldn't it be -true- skill to know how to employ both?
Why are so many of these action-rpg-mmos so lacking in character developement/choises (looking at you Vindictus & Tera) compared to games which focus almost completely ont hese builds/gear/pimping out your toon (Rift? TSW?)
As I said, I'll keep pointing to DDO. All your action RPG elements come into play in combat, with manual dodging, aiming and what not and you still have the Best character creation in my opinion. Multiclassing with restrictions which make sense, amen!
TERA is the best.
I know you are asking for most "robust", so it may not be what you are looking for as an answer. It is not a game with a million variations, it is about execution and timing.
That being said, the game didn't really endure and I don't recommend it.
WoW is the game I am playing again. It is far from cutting edge, but the combat is really fleshed out.
Warlock's now have 3 specs that are very different from one another and will give you a lot of variation within just the one class.
Someone please make a good MMO.