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What was the level of expectations for the MMOs...

YakkinYakkin irvine, CAPosts: 919Member

... that are touted as "The Golden Age MMOs?"

Because maybe it's just me, but expectations for many MMOs seem to have skyrocketed to the point that I don't think any MMO, Sandbox, Themepark, or whatever term you use to label them could posssibly hope to meet those expectations. Do you think this might be part of the reason for MMO burnout in general, not including incompetence and meddling?

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Comments

  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,206Member Uncommon

    there are a few players who can pick an MMo in 2003, and in 2013 still be playing it. (props to eve for displaying when a character was created.)

     

    there are many players who could never play an MMO for more than a few months.

     

    the first group oesn't have much different expectations.

     

    the second group has very different expectations in the sense that it HAS them. Back 'then' they didn't know MMOs exist.

     

    add them up and you get something like 80% hype-and-unhappiness.

     

    reality is that most people in this genre never belonged here. they got dragged in by advertising or word of mouth and have been spinning around trying to land somewhere to call home. For many it never happened.

     

    worse, the market reacted to them trying to create them a home. It's what ended the Golden Age. They never did and never will have a home. How much an mmo twists and turns trying to get them one is not relevant to them...only to the others who might find themselves evicted.

     

    does that answer the topic? expectatinos were lower and coming from fewer people. now they're high, coming from many.

    image

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Robokapp

    reality is that most people in this genre never belonged here. they got dragged in by advertising or word of mouth and have been spinning around trying to land somewhere to call home. For many it never happened.

     

    worse, the market reacted to them trying to create them a home. It's what ended the Golden Age. They never did and never will have a home. How much an mmo twists and turns trying to get them one is not relevant to them...only to the others who might find themselves evicted.

    Very strange notions. Why would any "belong" to a genre? These are games. You either play it, or not. There is no such thing as "belong to the genre". Don't tell me you "belong" to MMO, and you are forbidden to play other games.

     

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,675Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Enigmatus

    ... that are touted as "The Golden Age MMOs?"

    Because maybe it's just me, but expectations for many MMOs seem to have skyrocketed to the point that I don't think any MMO, Sandbox, Themepark, or whatever term you use to label them could posssibly hope to meet those expectations. Do you think this might be part of the reason for MMO burnout in general, not including incompetence and meddling?

    I don't think everyone agrees on what the Golden Age is. In my opinion, it was 2003. It was a time when advances, diversity and innovation were at their highest point. Much like golden ages in history, the following period has been MMOs that are, for the most part, derivative and less inspired.

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • YakkinYakkin irvine, CAPosts: 919Member
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Enigmatus

    ... that are touted as "The Golden Age MMOs?"

    Because maybe it's just me, but expectations for many MMOs seem to have skyrocketed to the point that I don't think any MMO, Sandbox, Themepark, or whatever term you use to label them could posssibly hope to meet those expectations. Do you think this might be part of the reason for MMO burnout in general, not including incompetence and meddling?

    I don't think everyone agrees on what the Golden Age is. In my opinion, it was 2003. It was a time when advances, diversity and innovation were at their highest point. Much like golden ages in history, the following period has been MMOs that are, for the most part, derivative and less inspired.

     

    Well I did say in my OP that this was not taking into consideration incompetence or executive meddling.

  • PonnPonn Brooklyn, NYPosts: 9Member

    Well there are still those MMOs that were great, fallen out of favor, but are still around like..

    Maple Story

    Ragnarok Online..

    Lineage (2)

    ect..

    (Funny how I'm listing all Korean grinders).

    These all came out 2002/2003.. While not as wildly successful as the likes of EQ or WoW...

    They were quite good at bringing people together, and not being particularly theme park.  They had just the right mix of MMO, and RPG..

    I'm only mentioning these because nobody ever seems to.. (Perhaps for good reason, perhaps not)

  • CecropiaCecropia Posts: 3,472Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Robokapp

    reality is that most people in this genre never belonged here. they got dragged in by advertising or word of mouth and have been spinning around trying to land somewhere to call home. For many it never happened.

     

    worse, the market reacted to them trying to create them a home. It's what ended the Golden Age. They never did and never will have a home. How much an mmo twists and turns trying to get them one is not relevant to them...only to the others who might find themselves evicted.

    Very strange notions. Why would any "belong" to a genre? These are games. You either play it, or not. There is no such thing as "belong to the genre". Don't tell me you "belong" to MMO, and you are forbidden to play other games.

     

    Let us reference a great quote from the 1995 movie Casino by the character Pat Webb:

    "Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor."

    Tread lightly, my friend. Tread lightly image

     

    "Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Ponn

    Well there are still those MMOs that were great, fallen out of favor, but are still around like..

    Maple Story

    Ragnarok Online..

    Lineage (2)

    ect..

    (Funny how I'm listing all Korean grinders).

    These all came out 2002/2003.. While not as wildly successful as the likes of EQ or WoW...

    They were quite good at bringing people together, and not being particularly theme park.  They had just the right mix of MMO, and RPG..

    I'm only mentioning these because nobody ever seems to.. (Perhaps for good reason, perhaps not)

    And no one mentioned the latest big successes? LOL and WOT? You don't even need a world to be successful.

  • CecropiaCecropia Posts: 3,472Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Ponn

    Well there are still those MMOs that were great, fallen out of favor, but are still around like..

    Maple Story

    Ragnarok Online..

    Lineage (2)

    ect..

    (Funny how I'm listing all Korean grinders).

    These all came out 2002/2003.. While not as wildly successful as the likes of EQ or WoW...

    They were quite good at bringing people together, and not being particularly theme park.  They had just the right mix of MMO, and RPG..

    I'm only mentioning these because nobody ever seems to.. (Perhaps for good reason, perhaps not)

    And no one mentioned the latest big successes? LOL and WOT? You don't even need a world to be successful.

    Neither of which are MMOs, so why on Earth would they be mentioned? Do you care to discuss and debate my plans to restore my '73 Trans Am?

    Probably not.  

    "Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  • MadnessRealmMadnessRealm Montreal, QCPosts: 2,716Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ponn

    Well there are still those MMOs that were great, fallen out of favor, but are still around like..

    Maple Story

    Ragnarok Online..

    Lineage (2)

    ect..

    (Funny how I'm listing all Korean grinders).

    These all came out 2002/2003.. While not as wildly successful as the likes of EQ or WoW...

    They were quite good at bringing people together, and not being particularly theme park.  They had just the right mix of MMO, and RPG..

    I'm only mentioning these because nobody ever seems to.. (Perhaps for good reason, perhaps not)

    I'd add Dofus to that list, however it was only the french version that was released in 03-04 (english version came a little later). Still, one of the few P2P MMOs to hit over 1 million subscribers at one point in it's life.

    There's also Runescape that came out around that time no?

    ------
    Your daily dose of common sense since 2009!

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member

    Golden Age MMOs were expected to push technology, and be almost entirely unique in all its game mechanics. The expectations were much MUCH higher.

    Nowadays, the things that would in the past be called "clones" and "knock offs" are touted as being innovative. And tech hasn't been pushed at all.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,675Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Cecropia
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Ponn

    Well there are still those MMOs that were great, fallen out of favor, but are still around like..

    Maple Story

    Ragnarok Online..

    Lineage (2)

    ect..

    (Funny how I'm listing all Korean grinders).

    These all came out 2002/2003.. While not as wildly successful as the likes of EQ or WoW...

    They were quite good at bringing people together, and not being particularly theme park.  They had just the right mix of MMO, and RPG..

    I'm only mentioning these because nobody ever seems to.. (Perhaps for good reason, perhaps not)

    And no one mentioned the latest big successes? LOL and WOT? You don't even need a world to be successful.

    Neither of which are MMOs, so why on Earth would they be mentioned? Do you care to discuss and debate my plans to restore my '73 Trans Am?

    Probably not.  

    Depends. Is it running the standard 455 or the SD?

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • grndzrogrndzro Reno, NVPosts: 1,150Member

    The golden age of MMO's consisted of the pre WoW genre where you had to work your ass off for what you had and the rewards were Playing with your friends and sharing in the hardships of the game.

    When you have to camp a mob for day after day to get a rare item that is still viable 50 levels later the feeling of accomplishment when people compliment you on your gear is priceless especially between people that take gaming as seriously as you do. 

    That is missing in todays mmo's of instant gratification. 

    Vanilla WoW was still tough to be at the top of the game and took dedication and thus garnering the admiration of less serious gamers which propelled them toward their goal of being that decked out dude running the toughest dungeons. Then WoW started catering to the instant gratification crack babies that don't belong to the genre.

    The point is the genre changed and the games we loved IE UO/Everquest/FFXI are gone. It saddens us.

  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,206Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Robokapp

    reality is that most people in this genre never belonged here. they got dragged in by advertising or word of mouth and have been spinning around trying to land somewhere to call home. For many it never happened.

     

    worse, the market reacted to them trying to create them a home. It's what ended the Golden Age. They never did and never will have a home. How much an mmo twists and turns trying to get them one is not relevant to them...only to the others who might find themselves evicted.

    Very strange notions. Why would any "belong" to a genre? These are games. You either play it, or not. There is no such thing as "belong to the genre". Don't tell me you "belong" to MMO, and you are forbidden to play other games.

     

    well, if a software engineer is working in a fast food place after he gets out of college while constantly searching for a new job, I wouldn't say he 'belongs to the workplace". These are jobs. Yet even if he works it, it's not appropriate for him.

     

    I'm not sure how "these are games" is an argument...does it imply they're only games because a particular person honors us with his presence or how would such a rivial statement work as an argument ?

     

    does my "these are jobs" also work ?

    image

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,769Member Uncommon

    The baulk of modern gamers will never have their expectations met by the MMO genre. MMO's have been shoe horned into a design to appeal to them but it has not worked. It does get the company short term profit, but then they have to downsize and change revenue options.

    The level of expectation is one that expects a MMO to generate a new games worth of content every month. That is not going to happen this side of an AI being built which can create game content. So they will not stay, no matter how much gaming companies twist and deform MMO's from the long term community games they once where.

  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member

    I think the expectations were high because the world has never seen an 'MMO' before.

    It was new so it was exciting.

    Nowadays, most businesses accept that they will lose more than half of the subs within the first 6 months.

    That's actually pretty okay as businesses can now plan properly and not over-spend.

    We (the content locust) will keep on buying and disgarding video games cause we treat video games as disposable entertainment products.

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,257Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Robokapp

    there are a few players who can pick an MMo in 2003, and in 2013 still be playing it. (props to eve for displaying when a character was created.)

     

    there are many players who could never play an MMO for more than a few months.

     

    the first group oesn't have much different expectations.

     

    the second group has very different expectations in the sense that it HAS them. Back 'then' they didn't know MMOs exist.

     

    add them up and you get something like 80% hype-and-unhappiness.

     

    reality is that most people in this genre never belonged here. they got dragged in by advertising or word of mouth and have been spinning around trying to land somewhere to call home. For many it never happened.

     

    worse, the market reacted to them trying to create them a home. It's what ended the Golden Age. They never did and never will have a home. How much an mmo twists and turns trying to get them one is not relevant to them...only to the others who might find themselves evicted.

     

    does that answer the topic? expectatinos were lower and coming from fewer people. now they're high, coming from many.

    but when you golden age mmo gamers get a game that you all been screaming about, you turn your back on it and dont show support. (Darkfall comes to mind, Vanguard, even your precious GW2.)

     

    image

  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,206Member Uncommon
    tell that to the SWG vets...

    image

  • MeriliremMerilirem Port AugustaPosts: 77Member
    I'd just like to point out that the best time or true golden age has yet to come. Judging by the situation another 5-10 years will herald the return of real games across the board. We just had to go through the teething periods of "wow social online gaming" and "send in the clones". It was a learning experience which may lead to a small depression but in the end was necessary to reach our initial goal. So just be patient.

    If a butterfly learnt to speak, to live in human society, paid its bills, had a job, lived in a fancy house and married a human, is it human?

    Now what if that same butterfly knew how to write code better than any human and had years of experience in the game industry, would that make it a game designer?

    If u wouldn't let a construction worker design your house, then why let a programmer design your world?

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Originally posted by Robokapp

    there are a few players who can pick an MMo in 2003, and in 2013 still be playing it. (props to eve for displaying when a character was created.)

     

    there are many players who could never play an MMO for more than a few months.

     

    the first group oesn't have much different expectations.

     

    the second group has very different expectations in the sense that it HAS them. Back 'then' they didn't know MMOs exist.

     

    add them up and you get something like 80% hype-and-unhappiness.

     

    reality is that most people in this genre never belonged here. they got dragged in by advertising or word of mouth and have been spinning around trying to land somewhere to call home. For many it never happened.

     

    worse, the market reacted to them trying to create them a home. It's what ended the Golden Age. They never did and never will have a home. How much an mmo twists and turns trying to get them one is not relevant to them...only to the others who might find themselves evicted.

     

    does that answer the topic? expectatinos were lower and coming from fewer people. now they're high, coming from many.

    but when you golden age mmo gamers get a game that you all been screaming about, you turn your back on it and dont show support. (Darkfall comes to mind, Vanguard, even your precious GW2.)

     

    An indie game made by 20 devs in Greece, a AAA MMO that was never finished and then dropped by SoE, and a game that is nothing like golden age MMOs?

  • c0existc0exist Round Rock, TXPosts: 192Member
    Originally posted by grndzro

    The golden age of MMO's consisted of the pre WoW genre where you had to work your ass off for what you had and the rewards were Playing with your friends and sharing in the hardships of the game.

    When you have to camp a mob for day after day to get a rare item that is still viable 50 levels later the feeling of accomplishment when people compliment you on your gear is priceless especially between people that take gaming as seriously as you do. 

    That is missing in todays mmo's of instant gratification. 

    Vanilla WoW was still tough to be at the top of the game and took dedication and thus garnering the admiration of less serious gamers which propelled them toward their goal of being that decked out dude running the toughest dungeons. Then WoW started catering to the instant gratification crack babies that don't belong to the genre.

    The point is the genre changed and the games we loved IE UO/Everquest/FFXI are gone. It saddens us.

    This was said beautifully, The accomplishment factor was huge back pre-wow.  Now these games just hand you things, no real time and effort required.  To get to max level there was time and dedication now in a month or two you are finished and on to the next one.  Camping mobs and required partying were what made these games fun, where you could look at a character and judging by his level and gear you could appreciate him for what he has accomplished.  Now anyone with a week off of work can get that same thing, but like grndzro states its the "instant gratification" factor.  

  • madazzmadazz A town, ONPosts: 1,564Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Cecropia
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Ponn

    Well there are still those MMOs that were great, fallen out of favor, but are still around like..

    Maple Story

    Ragnarok Online..

    Lineage (2)

    ect..

    (Funny how I'm listing all Korean grinders).

    These all came out 2002/2003.. While not as wildly successful as the likes of EQ or WoW...

    They were quite good at bringing people together, and not being particularly theme park.  They had just the right mix of MMO, and RPG..

    I'm only mentioning these because nobody ever seems to.. (Perhaps for good reason, perhaps not)

    And no one mentioned the latest big successes? LOL and WOT? You don't even need a world to be successful.

    Neither of which are MMOs, so why on Earth would they be mentioned? Do you care to discuss and debate my plans to restore my '73 Trans Am?

    Probably not.  

    So very, very true.

  • madazzmadazz A town, ONPosts: 1,564Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by grndzro

    The golden age of MMO's consisted of the pre WoW genre where you had to work your ass off for what you had and the rewards were Playing with your friends and sharing in the hardships of the game.

    When you have to camp a mob for day after day to get a rare item that is still viable 50 levels later the feeling of accomplishment when people compliment you on your gear is priceless especially between people that take gaming as seriously as you do. 

    That is missing in todays mmo's of instant gratification. 

    Vanilla WoW was still tough to be at the top of the game and took dedication and thus garnering the admiration of less serious gamers which propelled them toward their goal of being that decked out dude running the toughest dungeons. Then WoW started catering to the instant gratification crack babies that don't belong to the genre.

    The point is the genre changed and the games we loved IE UO/Everquest/FFXI are gone. It saddens us.

    You know, I agree almost entirely, but I would not dare suggest we take away the instant gratification games for those who enjoy it. The market just went a little hay-wire and forgot the roots they were built on. But like other industries, sometimes they make a bad call and need to return to their roots. They obviously all jumped on this bandwagon WAY to fast.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by madazz
     

    You know, I agree almost entirely, but I would not dare suggest we take away the instant gratification games for those who enjoy it. The market just went a little hay-wire and forgot the roots they were built on. But like other industries, sometimes they make a bad call and need to return to their roots. They obviously all jumped on this bandwagon WAY to fast.

    The market of video games is fast changing. I don't think holding onto the "roots" is a virtue. Do you still want to play text only games? Most don't. That is the root of computer games, you know.

  • BanaghranBanaghran HuisoPosts: 869Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by madazz
     

    You know, I agree almost entirely, but I would not dare suggest we take away the instant gratification games for those who enjoy it. The market just went a little hay-wire and forgot the roots they were built on. But like other industries, sometimes they make a bad call and need to return to their roots. They obviously all jumped on this bandwagon WAY to fast.

    The market of video games is fast changing. I don't think holding onto the "roots" is a virtue. Do you still want to play text only games? Most don't. That is the root of computer games, you know.

    Text is for whippersnappers  :)

    I prefer roots that mean "imaginative" and "thought trough", as opposed to the current "throw random things at it and see what sticks" approach.

    Flame on!

    :)

  • WarmakerWarmaker San Diego, CAPosts: 2,231Member
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Originally posted by Robokapp

    there are a few players who can pick an MMo in 2003, and in 2013 still be playing it. (props to eve for displaying when a character was created.)

     

    there are many players who could never play an MMO for more than a few months.

     

    the first group oesn't have much different expectations.

     

    the second group has very different expectations in the sense that it HAS them. Back 'then' they didn't know MMOs exist.

     

    add them up and you get something like 80% hype-and-unhappiness.

     

    reality is that most people in this genre never belonged here. they got dragged in by advertising or word of mouth and have been spinning around trying to land somewhere to call home. For many it never happened.

     

    worse, the market reacted to them trying to create them a home. It's what ended the Golden Age. They never did and never will have a home. How much an mmo twists and turns trying to get them one is not relevant to them...only to the others who might find themselves evicted.

     

    does that answer the topic? expectatinos were lower and coming from fewer people. now they're high, coming from many.

    but when you golden age mmo gamers get a game that you all been screaming about, you turn your back on it and dont show support. (Darkfall comes to mind, Vanguard, even your precious GW2.)

     

    Funny... I had a home in MMORPGs called SWG.  That is, until SOE took the "Welcome" rug from underneath existing players.  We've been clamoring about that since 2005.

    I know that it's never coming back, but we're still complaining about that series of unfortuate events for more than a handful of years now, still going.

    THAT is support for the game, at least the game that existed before the massive changes.  Don't be going around talking like "Golden Age MMO Gamers" don't support their titles.

    Also, just to get this out of the way, there's a difference in supporting a game that we've been playing or clamored for, and supporting a game that was drastically changed from what its original vision was.

    Also, as a consumer, I don't buy into half-a**ed products, regardless of what we're talking about.  I have better things to spend my precious time and hard earned money on.

    "I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)

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