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Originally posted by redcapp The community. When MMOs catered and appealed to GAMERS, they were good. Now that gaming has gone mainstream, the marketing teams have drawn in crowds of idiots I would never associate with IRL.
Yep. It's all about having a playerbase with shared mentalities and purposes for playing. That is what makes a game a success, and requires a like-minded developer.
For many of the preceding arguments, a couple of notes:
1) MMOs became popular because the internet became popular. 1970-1993ish the internet was barely known. Most of the backbone was limited to campuses and government agencies. 1993-2000 saw a sharp increase in internet use but it wasn't quite the behemoth that it is today. 2000-2012 shifted the percentage of telecommunicated information via the internet from 51% to 97% (see Wikipedia article). WoW arrived on the scene at a ridiculously opportune time (2004), was backed by good programmers with solid game design ideas, and was developed by a company that carried a very large, very loyal following of RTS-minded gamers.
Note that the internet continues to become more popular. WoW does not. Something has changed.
2) What has changed is due to the OP and other campers, griefers, and people who can't separate their gaming life from their actual life (powergamers). MMORPG meant Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game. When the underlined part ceased to mean anything anymore, the entire business of mmorpgs lost its identity. You could make the silliest child game akin to tic-tac-toe and promote it as an MMORPG now. The Golden age of MMOs? Meaningless drivel for people who caused the rampant confusion to make petty claims over.
The Golden Age of RPGs? Now that, I miss.
Originally posted by vandal5627 MMOS with Depth...MMOs these days are really shallow, all glitz and glamour with no soul. Very forgettable.
I've struggled very, very hard to think what this mystical Golden Age MMO With Depth might have been, particularly given the early state of the art in '03.
But nope, it isn't more than a rose-colored myth.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Originally posted by Quirhid Originally posted by Goatgod76 Originally posted by c0exist Originally posted by Quirhid
And this is exactly why those games died, gamers with this mentality. These thoughts although just fine because we all want different things in games are for single player games. For example Skyrim, no group needed, no dependencies because you can buff yourself, ranking through achievements. People with this point of view shouldnt play mmo's because they get everything they want through single player games. MMO's are about grouping and working together otherwise why even play with others? They are supposed to devote some time and effort. Not all your time but a good amount or whatever you can fit in.
Don't waste your time. He either doesn't get it, or doesn't WANT to get it. I am highly doubting he's played MMO's pior to WoW despite he says he has. And I'm not saying that because it's the "popular" rebuttal...but IDK otherwise how you could say what he does without understanding MMORPG's from their birth up until now...or just being selfish and wanting what is conveinient for him no matter how it cripples the genre for others.
It would be like if FPS games were a niche genre, then suddenly had one major FPS release with tons of advertising bringing in droves of new players who have never heard of, or never played FPS games (Let's say they are from the MMORPG genre). Then as time went on these new players started griping how they think the FPS should be slowed down and allow for more player interaction outside of fighting...giving lobby rooms to chat. How certain guns should be nerfed because they are too powerful and take away the feeling of fair competition, how all players should start with a bunch of buffs and achievements should be harder to get, etc, etc.
Do you think these FPS die-hard's who had been playing them for years would stand for such a thing? Having their games changed by those who have little concept of how they began and what seperates them from the MMORPG genre? Think about that when making comments about whining. It's a protest of ignorance.
Sure, there are features from newer MMORPG's that can definitely improve the genre and should be added to them and are in many cases. But it's gotten out of control and MMORPG's today have lost their core features that make them a seperate genre from console gaming in the process. I don't see why there can't be comprimise.
Heh, only reason I can disagree with you is because there's something wrong with me it seems. When you yourself offer so little understanding or empathy it is very hard to give you any. I am not in the least bit of selfish. All I do is explain how things are and why they are that way. You're the one wondering why things don't go the way you want and you're the one who wants things to go the way you want. You are selfish.
When I said there's no virtue to having learning skills in Eve, the fans attacked me then. They said: "That would be like dumbing down Eve", but its not. There was no value in learning skills. Learning skills should be learned early on. Anything else is more or less gimping yourself for the long term. They created a weeks long period for new players where they saw no tangible advancement in the game, and it is easy to lose interest when this happens. Something bad for nothing good. It was good that CCP got rid of them. But some fans still wailed its dumbing down the game. Morons...
I get the same response every time I bring up an old mechanic. Just like the aforementioned long term buffs. What you create with them is dependencies and inconveniences. You have to weigh if the good is worth the bad and are there other methods of getting the good. Most fans are against removing them only because its what they're used to, and "it has worked so far, hasn't it?" - a very poor excuse to retain an arcaic mechanic.
As a hopefully soon-to-be-graduated usability and software engineer, I see no value doing something with three clicks, when you can do it with one, or better yet, automatically. Gameplay shouldn't be about artificially creating inconveniences and dependencies, it should be about enabling and allowing players to do stuff. You see where I'm going here? Sure, there are some elements which create gameplay for some and inconveniences for others, and I'm fairly certain the net sum benefits from long term buffs is negative, but I digress: This topic should be reserved for another thread if you like.
Can't you see that the best way to get the biggest possible audience is to allow players play the game like they want to? This includes being solo friendly. I get that you feel your playstyle is being threatened but try to look at this objectively for once. The usual hinderances to group play comes from poor quest and encounter design, where objectives are not shared, and despite being in a group, members have to complete the quest like they are playing solo. You see, its not because they allow you to solo, they just need to fix few things for groups.
Groups of players are naturally more powerful than solo players or even a group of solo players. They don't need an artificial buff. And the easier it is to form a group or play together, the more people do it. This is what GW2 tried to do. This is what WoW tried to do. Can't you see that? They're trying to solve problems which have plagued the genre for ages!
Same with instances. People love to do instances. Most don't want to fight for loot, or spawns, they only want to go in a dungeon and have an adventure. There are many advantages to instances, some related to performance, some to world and encounter design. You see them as an anti-christ and never admit any value in having them.
You should think more why things are done the way they are, and how they could be made better, instead of being a purist. I have said this a thousand times before: most people don't play MMOs because theyr'e MMOs, they play them because they're fun. Therefore the first objective for any developer should be "how to make this game fun" and not "how to make this game an MMO".
Its not your genre. You are not invested to anything and you are not entitled to anything. So stop acting like you are. If you don't like it, leave. No one is forcing you to play. In any case, you are not doing your side any credit for bashing everyone and everything. Half the time you're only spreading hate without much point anyway. You are a buzzkill and you rarely offer anything valuable to the discussions in which you partake. So man up and try to act like the social, sensible and rational human being you claim to be.
It is childish to imply that someone is stupid only because he disagrees with you.
Nice try at twisting it back the other way. And reading comprehension doesn't appear to be your strong suit either.
I, as well as many others here I am certain, have seen where you don't simply tell it how it is and why it is. You tell why it can't be the way they WERE prior to players like youself trying to make them console games because that's what the majority want. It's players like you that are changing them from what they were meant to be into a genre that already exists with instant gratification play. Why is this so hard for you to absorb. it has very little to do with what makes the genre better, as much as it does with how much more cash can we squeeze out fo the consumer.
LOL...I'm selfish. Try actually reading my last post. Notice where I said why can't there be comprimise and that there are plenty of features from modern MMORPG's that are good and can be incorporated....as long as it doesn't kill all the core features that made MMORPG's what they were and made them a seperate genre and set apart.
I am willing to see many of the modern features of MMORPG's added to them. But also want to see what made them great, such as community involvement, open worlds to explore, meaning crafting and questing, and near endless content too. You seem to be the one that doesn't want anything that may require you use patience or brain power added. Just what YOU think is what they should be. Whatever can make them fun and fast...liek console games. Fun is fine...fast in some cases...is fine, but not to the degree it kills their purpose, mainly being interaction and long term fun (Why there is the RPG part in the title).
Love how you speak for others too...yet I have seen slews of posts with people who despise instancing, easy-mode, and half the BS you always preach about, etc. Actual posts stating so. Not even going to respond point for point anymore with you because as I told the last guy, I would just be wasting breath and time. Especially since I see your in school for it and probably learning the modern ways of bringing in people and cash despite how it may effect a certain genre as a whole, and think you know everything.
I am asking for comprimise, you are telling this is how it will be and if you don't like it leave. Who is being more selfish and childish?
The golden age is here .. why should i miss anything?
If you are talking about the by-gone old age .. nothing. No more camping. No more griefing. No more 20 min boat ride.
So yeah .. don't miss those games at all.
Originally posted by Goatgod76 Originally posted by Quirhid
I, as well as many others here I am certain, have seen where you don't simply tell it how it is and why it is. You tell why it can't be the way they WERE prior to players like youself trying to make them console games because that's what the majority want. It's players liek you that are changing them from what they were meant to be into a genre that laready exists with instant gratification play. Why is this so hard for you to absorb.
LOL...I'm selfish. Try actually reading my last post. Notice where I said why there can't be comprimise and that there ar eplenty of features from modern MMORPG's that are good and can be incorporated....as logn as it doesn't kill all the core features that made mMORPG's what they were and made them a seperate genre.
I am willing to see many of the modern features of MMORPG's added to them. But also want to see what made them great, such as community involvement, open worlds to explore, meaning crafting and questing, and near endless content too. You seem to be the one that doesn't want anything that may require you use patience or brain power added. Just what YOU think is what they should be.
Love how you speak for others too...yet I have seen slews of posts with people who despise instancing, easy-mode, etc. And talk about childish....telling me if I don't like it leave. Who is being selfish again?
I see where you're coming from: console games, easy-mode... There is no way to have an adult discussion with you, is there? Apparently you incapable of looking things from any perspective other than your own - a very skewed one I might add. And it seems you lack the will to think through the practical implications of the things you propose too. Much of what you demand is very difficult, very risky or outright impossible. Then you rant about how devs are lazy, inept or whatever when you don't get what you want. How about some f***ing respect for the professionals, eh? Armchair generals are a dime a dozen.
What makes you right and them wrong? What do you know that they don't?
If you think you know better why not step up to the plate? Are you willing to risk your livelyhood into making a game that has no indication it will succeed other than that scratch in your ass? How much funding do you think you can get based on that? Its one thing to design a game for yourself and a couple of your friends - a whole nother thing making it for the masses.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
For me personally?
Challenge/Progression: This really made it so fun to raid and get further in the game since it felt like when I did work, it actually was worth something. I could be in the guild that is very last in the world to do a raid and I'd still be content with it, just being able to say I completed it and then get to work on the next tier up. It really made those 'end game' focused MMos entertaining and a blast to play for a long time.
On the flip side, this also goes for games that focused on leveling as end game wasn't just 'obtained' it was something that could take a long long time to reach. The goal was to level and max out your character which really made it fun. Progression was individual based. Ragnarok Online was a game that did this extremely well as you leveled your character, you felt like you were getting better. You picked skills and stats and your choices felt like they made a different. From levels alone (granted gear counted for a lot as well) you could tell a difference and it really felt like you were achieving something.
Originally posted by Quirhid What makes you right and them wrong? What do you know that they don't? If you think you know better why not step up to the plate? Are you willing to risk your livelyhood into making a game that has no indication it will succeed other than that scratch in your ass? How much funding do you think you can get based on that? Its one thing to design a game for yourself and a couple of your friends - a whole nother thing making it for the masses.
Yet making it for the masses is the root of the problem. What game company tries to do that? What makes an MMO defy the long-standing practice of appealing to a particular audience?
What is disgusting about the flavor of both of your arguments is that:
1) You shouldn't be talking to each other on the same internet forum. You are not members of the same playerbase or even the same genre.
2) Both of you are parasitic members of a hijacked game genre. He hijacked my genre, you hijacked his. Neither of your genres have proven to be financially sound - in fact, its the opposite. BOTH of your genres have proven to be ludicrously unsound financially. Few multi-million dollar companies go out of business. A very large percentage of MMO enterprises do, go, completely, out-of-business. The few success stories and the realization of how profitable mmorpgs COULD be is what is fueling the exhorbitant risk-taking and money-lending.
His opinion is his, and a demographic of one is still a demographic. I would prefer a game that wouldn't be identifiable to either of you, and there are at least a few thousand people like me.
You lost the argument by failing to agree to disagree. We don't all like the same type of food, it's no wonder our online entertainment interests fall into separate categories. Your arrogance falls into categorizing complaints about MY genre as attacks on yours.
Originally posted by Quirhid Originally posted by Goatgod76 Originally posted by Quirhid
Must of struck a nerve huh.
Well I have been gaming a LONG time. I've done more alpha and beta testing than I can count. I have FRIENDS in the industry, which in fact, I am asked for input from. I know enough to know your talking out of your ass.
And I don't recall anywhere I said dev's were lazy or inept. Money grubber's possibly (and rightly so, it's a business after all. But it's gotten out of hand), but the latter are your words you put in my mouth.
I don't know why it's so difficult for you to understand that console gaming, where instant gratification and quick fun you can load in and out of on a whim...is a COMPLETELY different genre from MMORPG's, which are different because they require commitment, LONG TERM commitment, patience, and a lot of community interaction. Worlds meant to be explored...basically 3D P&P D&D games.
It is fine to add features that compliment and enhance the experience. Yes, group finders are fine. Yes, limited portal use is fine. And yes...even some instancing is fine. But most of what people such as yourself want is to take away almost everything that makes a MMORPG a MMORPG, and turn them into single player games that happen to have other people as NPC's.
Soloing in an MMORPG is also fine. I do it quite a bit. But I also enjoy the group experience. The way I see it, from personal experience...a game with more group content fares better...as a MMORPG, for a longer period than one that calls itself an MMORPG....yet you can solo to level cap, barely talk to anyone, and port basically anywhere negating a point in a game world to begin with. Soloing content should still be in them, but not completely overpowering the game calling itself a MMORPG. This is what I am saying.
Yes, sadly...as much hate as it gets, but true...since WoW it's brought droves of console players to the genre, the cash they stick out there is what drives suits and excels the extinction of the genre as it was. Can you blame me, as a player who started with Meridian 59 and then EQ (Never played UO, not that into PvP) for being upset with this? And for getting heated seeing people like you who ALWAYS have something to say if anyone dares to talk about it, or wants just ONE MMORPG to cater to the old school crowd?
I have a friend working for an Indie company who is making an old school type of MMORPG. Guess I will continue to wait for it and pitch in where I can because the genre has gone to the dogs. But heed my words that a day will come when the way you enjoy them will shift, then it will be you on this end of the stick. Maybe then you will understand. But again...just keep insisting I am one sided and not willing for a compromise on old and new features and mechanics. Keep blasting anyone who says anything about older MMO's and the desire to have one come around again telling them how it will be a failure, even though there are DOZENS of them that cater to your type already so who cares if we get one...and keep calling me the selfish one while you do it.
We obviously won't see eye to eye, so I will leave it at that. Just please...do yourself, me and many others a favor. If you see a thread about old school MMORPG's or the desire to see another...just pass it by.
Originally posted by Raithe-Nor Originally posted by Quirhid
What are you talking about? Even SWTOR made profit and it was hailed as a failure. Yes, bad games go out of business, and should go out of business, but there's too many people saying "this and that failed" only because they didn't like it. Many companies have failed largely because of poor management - not because of game design.
Real lore! changing worlds, and devs interacting with players!
edit: and most importantly, games we're difficult!! games nowadays are like contra on easy, compared to godlike!!
an acutal world were players shape this world.
The most popular MMO's are nothing more than a collection of minigames. you walk into minigame-room #1 and play that minigame.
I think Asheron's Call 1 has the most robust combat mechanics, when monsters or players are firing at you, say arrows, crossbow bolts or magic spells you can dodge them, not insta pathed to you, also means you have to time and calculate your own attacks!
heres a few videos of examples I could find
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaHsHnDG07c ~ War Magic skills
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhLdzvLtemQ ~ Missile skill ( bow in this example, throwing weapons and crossbow also play differently )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPj9wI7m1B8 ~ Melee skill example ( dagger, all melees play differently )
With the physics mechanics, and the ability for all players to heal themselves generally the outcome of any battle is changing many ways, combine that with openworlds, lack of zoning, great landscapes and structures with real time combat and you have your self a awesomely paced, and enjoyable game.
Best thing to do is give it a shot and keep practicing! A level 10 can beat a level 35 with using "player skill" in dodging and attacking! or any level range really be it a level 126 vs a 275!
And this was just combat, there was actual crafting, searching around the world for parts to an uber weapon, or basic things like sitting in town fletching arrows!
I miss people not starting threads like this every chance they get or whenever they feel nostalgic.
No seriously. I miss questless gameplay. I wanna (be able to) do what I want sometimes, dammit. (Part of the reason I like GW2 ... but that's only halfway there.)
The OP misses the point - the 'Golden Age' of MMOs was when [insert name of player] started playing MMOs.
The center of the universe is always YOU, from YOUR perspective, physically and figuratively.
Originally posted by Caliburn101 The OP misses the point - the 'Golden Age' of MMOs was when [insert name of player] started playing MMOs. The center of the universe is always YOU, from YOUR perspective, physically and figuratively.
There's a pretty common and well backed concensus among MMO players that the golden age was from 1998 to 2003-4.
I didn't start playing until 2002 and I can agree with that. Easily.
There we go again... "instant gratification", huh?
No, MMORPG have never resembled PnP games, because the GM / DM is essential to PnP games. The interaction is between the players and the GM - not with a system. With this in mind, the experience is drastically different although sometimes I feel some people would be happier playing PnP games rather than MMORPGs. Basically they are looking at the wrong place.
During the time of the so called "golden age of MMOs", I played mainly PnP games. I wasn't interested in MMORPGs because I thought they were bad games. Just that: bad games. From the first 2 minutes I wasn't fan of the grinding, or the uninspired skill systems. I also started hating the strict trinity combat very early on - what a perverse system of combat that is. I thought the MMOs of that time were too simple, not enough "game" in them - a novelty, nothing more. A lot of them felt like another job which you payed for. You can see why many players didn't like them. But somehow you want to bring that back.
But whereas PnP were mostly about being in a group. MMOs are not. The idea of MMOs is simply, to share a gamespace with other players. There's nothing wrong with soloing to the level cap and not talking to anyone. If that's how you want to play, go right ahead. I am not going to tell you how to play your games. Solo-friendly is not the same as solo-centric or "single player MMO".
I don't get why you want to force people to interact. Afterall, isn't anything forced is bad? If people don't want to talk with you, group with you, or do business with you, fine. They're still a paying customer and have the same right to play as you do.
Your despise of the average gamer is obvious, but there is no "console player" in the meaning you use it. It is a stereotype, and hardly anyone fulfills it. And basing your argument on a stereotype puts it on a frail ground.
Can't you see that maybe the old school mechanics were precisely the reason why they weren't as popular as they are today? You can't bring those days back! These games do not exist in a vacuum. A lot of the features you'd want would not be well received in the market today. You'd be creating a niche game which is perfectly fine if you were happy with it. Except you think you can change the minds of the mass market, which, I think, is blind optimisim - utter fantasy.
You talk about changing the genre, you talk about influencing the players, doing this and that, but you never go into detail how you're going to do it. You have no practical plan or method! Every time these threads come up with community building etc. they never go into details how to go about doing that. And they are usually filled with a lot of wishful thinking and blind hope that things go the way they've planned. I like to think more down to earth so thats partly why I shoot those down.
I've been a GM / DM for years, so I know about PvE, encounter design, and world building so don't worry about me. I've also played e-sports at a world championship level so I claim to know atleast something about game balance, different builds and competitive PvP. I have friends who have been very succesful in e-sports in varying games, friends in the industry who have asked for my opinion too.
I can accept that we come from a very different schools of thinking, and different backgrounds, but what I will not accept that you constantly insult, demean and use derogatory terms for players and their games who are not like you or which are not to your liking. That is immature.
All this talk about easy-mode, solo-centrizism, dumbing down etc. is gross over-exaggeration. You are blowing this way out of proportion and I don't we agree on what is game depth and a proper way to pursue challenge in a game. One obvious thing is that you think that time invested is a factor to challenge and I don't. You want down time to force socializing, I think it is too costly in terms of accessibility. And I can socialize just fine in games that have little to no downtime, but again, topic for another thread.
I thought the "Golden Age" was about MMO not the player. I believe the OP was refering to when MMO was emerging from single players and MUDs to a MMO as we know it of today. At that time MMO was new, ideas and concept, but today's MMOs are just taking from what MMO's were during that time. Nothing new, nothing original, [insert my hatered for WoW].
Originally posted by ibn_Cartwell Real lore! changing worlds, and devs interacting with players! edit: and most importantly, games we're difficult!! games nowadays are like contra on easy, compared to godlike!!
Dude, you have one of the most distinct writing styles in all of MMORPG.com.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
And again, completely missing the point, or failing to understand. How the hell is saying terms like "console gamers" or "instant gratification" insulting? Seems to me YOU took it personally...which says a lot then. I play console games as well, and it doesn't offend me, why does it for you so much?
And those terms go hand in hand and what that genre is about anyways. You are nit picking and seems you are just looking to argue and not understand. I never said ANYTHING about forcing people to group (or not having soloable content), or keeping every single aspect of old school MMORPG's (Could of sworn TWICE now I mentioned comprimise and incorporating newer features), or insulting anyone directly. Do you have a reading issue? Better get that checked out.
Anyways, now I am done wasting my time trying to hold a discussion with you, because obviously...again...we will not see eye to eye.
Originally posted by wallet113 Originally posted by Caliburn101 The OP misses the point - the 'Golden Age' of MMOs was when [insert name of player] started playing MMOs. The center of the universe is always YOU, from YOUR perspective, physically and figuratively.
I WISH MMOs today were doing what golden age MMOs did. They aren't doing the same, they're doing less. WoW, after 8 years, has less features than UO had after 2.
Originally posted by TheScavenger I really miss standing around for 6 hours, spamming "LFG! Level 100 needed for dungeon" "Want to trade Olthoi Armor for pyreals!" And seeing chat go by so fast that no one sees your LFG or trade messages, because 1000 other people are spamming chat for the same thing And I miss standing in one spot killing the same mob over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over. I miss being able to grief people and scam people and get away with it (well EVE lets you do this) I miss being forced to group, and being grouped with a bunch of people that I don't even like or would ever actually talk to or be a real friend with and I'm only with them so I can get something out of them I miss being killed and losing hundreds of hours it took to get items and losing everything. I have nothing better to do with my life than lose hundreds of hours worth of items and levels/skills/stats...I really miss this. I miss being able to run around at the highest level and gank level 1s and tell them "GTFO out of the game nooby"...some MMOs allow you to do this though. That about sums up the things I really miss in the classic MMOs.
/this!!!! Nail on the head!