Originally posted by mindw0rk Developers minds are sucked in templates, they cant imagine theme-park MMO could be done unlike WoW.
You guys really don't realize how arrogant and insulting you come across as when you say thing like this?
It also sounds incredibly ignorant, as if all developers are uncreative and stupid. As sombody who has a lot of friends in the game industry I can tell how utterly uninformed and shortsighted this type of thinking is.
Mmorpgs are incredibly complex projects requiring collaboration among many disparate teams:
art, music, world designers, lore and writers, server engineers, database engineers, code optimization teams, localization teams, marketing, call center and customer support teams, GM team, data center operations teams...and the list goes on and on, not even gonna talk about coordinating with 3rd parties to help any of the teams above.
Yeah try to get all these folks on the same page, hit your deadlines and stay on budget.
Its so easy, I mean anybody can do it.
People used to be able to do it really well.
MMOs being hard has absolutely nothing to do with the massive lack of creativity in todays genre. Publishers and lead devs are just too idiotic to stray from making WoW clones, and then they wonder why they fail.
You there. The one reading this post on this forum right now. Why aren't you exercising? Don't you know how good it is for you? Stand up, do some jumping jacks, some push-ups, grab a dumbell and do a few curls. Throw your shoes on a jog around the block. It only takes a few minutes! The health benefits are astronomical. Work out for a few minutes and you're potentially adding another day to your life expectancy as your risk of heart disease and obesity go down.
But you're not stopping to exercise right now. (Maybe you are... kudos to you, I wouldn't do that just because an internet guy pretended to address me directly.) You can't see the effect it has on your body, so there's less gratification involved in doing so. You don't get clear and immediate feedback saying that your health has improved as the result of 20 push-ups.
That's the main draw of gaming in general, if you can believe it. It's why it feels fun to jump on Koopas for an hour but not fun to bag groceries for an hour (even though the paycheck at the end of the week is a far better reward). Video games give you immediate positive feedback for your accomplishments in a way that real life usually does not. Even though the rewards are not "real", we feel more rewarded getting those fake rewards than real rewards like money and long life.
And that is why we have levels to measure progression. "You gained 1400 exp" feels immediately rewarding in a way that levelless progression usually does not. You might be able to say to yourself "Killing this enemy put me a tiny bit closer to the end of this dungeon, which will have a treasure chest, that might give me a piece of the Haste spellrune which, when combined with 9 other pieces, will allow me to cast spells 5% faster." But that reward is too far off. Even if you gain power at the same rate using this method (compared to getting exp and levels from the mobs you're going through), the individual kills will feel less rewarding and you'll feel less of a sense of progress.
The levels are only the appetiser not the main game.
This is, well, completely untrue to speak about it nicely.
Character (toon) levels are just one small category of a much larger picture of progression. The vast majority of MMOs retain progression mechanisms even after reaching level cap, otherwise they would lose customers at a very alarming rate.
Themeparks without progression are numerous, extremely popular, and have been around for quite some time. They are called RTS, Shooter, or Adventure games. The only thing that distinguishes an rpg-like game from some other type is the highly pronounced existence of character progression (character dynamics).
BTW, it is extremely amusing for me to sit here as a member of a bygone age of multiplayer gaming and listen to people theorize about the existence of mechanics which seem to do them no good, but whose existence is the only reason they ever became involved in the genre of which they supposedly speak.
Let me try to make it clear. Everyone here supposing what it would be like to play an "MMO" without character progression... you are precisely the first people that would leave if any such thing ever came into prevalence in the games you currently frequent.
Originally posted by Jemcrystal Aren't levels and themepark the same thing? Well, that and level area zones.
This is like saying bread and ham are the same thing because they always seem to be together in sandwiches...
Levels were originally created by Gary Gygax et al in the first iteration of D&D.
They were created because they were easy to keep track off with pencil and paper, suited dice rolling and gave Dungeons Masters a simple reference to look at when designing dungeons.
They were translated into fantasy computer games etc. for the same reasons, and because many gamer devs of that era were ex-roleplayers.
They have continued to be used because they are easy to program.
NOT because they are necessary, and not because they are the 'best thing'. They simply have historical weight and ease of use on their side.
If smoking hadn't been invented, and someone came into the office now saying they had a great new idea that rolling dried leaves up on paper, burning them and inhaling the smoke was enjoyable and would catch on everywhere - people would think they were mad.
Likewise, if the gaming community had grown up without levels being a historical fact, a dev suggesting future games be dumbed down to incorporate them would likewise be looked at like the village idiot.
Levels are not necessary.
If you go back to the roots of the issue - there are plenty of pen and paper RPGs that don't use them that have been successful for decades.
A lesson needs to be learned and dev's should take note from the likes of Skyrim et al - sure you can level skills and abilities, but leveling toons as a whole is crapola.
Originally posted by mindw0rk Developers minds are sucked in templates, they cant imagine theme-park MMO could be done unlike WoW.
You guys really don't realize how arrogant and insulting you come across as when you say thing like this?
Actually it's not arrogant, nor in fact wrong.
My wife was a developer and a 'build manager' (integrates code from many devs into updated versions of the program as it grows).
She now works in mobile phones, but anyway...
Her work builds the software from the ground up - but she rarely if ever gets involved in the look of the UI, or the way in which the game or software 'plays' or is enjoyed or operates for the user...
... those decisions are made elsewhere.
Dev's require artistic and game-encompassing direction from someone else - not someone whose head is buried in code every day.
It is THIS which is lacking in games where mistakes are made and/or where innovation is missing.
Dev's ARE sucked into templates, and 'the money' is too - the tried and tested road is the less risky...
It is difficult to spend time thinking - "is this really groundbreaking" whilst animating a troll, a landspeeder or planting bloom effects on a blank playfield.
What the MMO industry needs is more visionary risk takers - because sure as hell - eventually one will hit the nail on the head and suck up 5+ millions subs without breaking a sweat.
The MMO genre is just in the 'low risk' doldrums at the moment. We just have to wait for the next paradigm shift to come.
But it won't come from the coders - that isn't their job.
Originally posted by mindw0rk Developers minds are sucked in templates, they cant imagine theme-park MMO could be done unlike WoW.
You guys really don't realize how arrogant and insulting you come across as when you say thing like this?
But it's true. Instanced adventures, cash shops, levels, it's all pretty much the same template.
Since when has it been arrogant to state the truth? And if anyone's insulted by it, that's their problem.
But look on the bright side. You can now buy a "Game Developer Coffee Table"...
...
It's in the cash shop, of course.
Loktofeit is right. I'm beginning to think you don't deserve a game you'd enjoy.
Obviously. Game developers across the board agree.
Meanwhile, they are forced to go FTP, offer cash shops to make ends meet by selling what we used to get from game play, and cheapen the gaming experience for us all. It's great for them and you guys to be so right.
Comments
People used to be able to do it really well.
MMOs being hard has absolutely nothing to do with the massive lack of creativity in todays genre. Publishers and lead devs are just too idiotic to stray from making WoW clones, and then they wonder why they fail.
You there. The one reading this post on this forum right now. Why aren't you exercising? Don't you know how good it is for you? Stand up, do some jumping jacks, some push-ups, grab a dumbell and do a few curls. Throw your shoes on a jog around the block. It only takes a few minutes! The health benefits are astronomical. Work out for a few minutes and you're potentially adding another day to your life expectancy as your risk of heart disease and obesity go down.
But you're not stopping to exercise right now. (Maybe you are... kudos to you, I wouldn't do that just because an internet guy pretended to address me directly.) You can't see the effect it has on your body, so there's less gratification involved in doing so. You don't get clear and immediate feedback saying that your health has improved as the result of 20 push-ups.
That's the main draw of gaming in general, if you can believe it. It's why it feels fun to jump on Koopas for an hour but not fun to bag groceries for an hour (even though the paycheck at the end of the week is a far better reward). Video games give you immediate positive feedback for your accomplishments in a way that real life usually does not. Even though the rewards are not "real", we feel more rewarded getting those fake rewards than real rewards like money and long life.
And that is why we have levels to measure progression. "You gained 1400 exp" feels immediately rewarding in a way that levelless progression usually does not. You might be able to say to yourself "Killing this enemy put me a tiny bit closer to the end of this dungeon, which will have a treasure chest, that might give me a piece of the Haste spellrune which, when combined with 9 other pieces, will allow me to cast spells 5% faster." But that reward is too far off. Even if you gain power at the same rate using this method (compared to getting exp and levels from the mobs you're going through), the individual kills will feel less rewarding and you'll feel less of a sense of progress.
But it's true. Instanced adventures, cash shops, levels, it's all pretty much the same template.
Since when has it been arrogant to state the truth? And if anyone's insulted by it, that's their problem.
But look on the bright side. You can now buy a "Game Developer Coffee Table"...
It's in the cash shop, of course.
Once upon a time....
Loktofeit is right. I'm beginning to think you don't deserve a game you'd enjoy.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
This is, well, completely untrue to speak about it nicely.
Character (toon) levels are just one small category of a much larger picture of progression. The vast majority of MMOs retain progression mechanisms even after reaching level cap, otherwise they would lose customers at a very alarming rate.
Themeparks without progression are numerous, extremely popular, and have been around for quite some time. They are called RTS, Shooter, or Adventure games. The only thing that distinguishes an rpg-like game from some other type is the highly pronounced existence of character progression (character dynamics).
BTW, it is extremely amusing for me to sit here as a member of a bygone age of multiplayer gaming and listen to people theorize about the existence of mechanics which seem to do them no good, but whose existence is the only reason they ever became involved in the genre of which they supposedly speak.
Let me try to make it clear. Everyone here supposing what it would be like to play an "MMO" without character progression... you are precisely the first people that would leave if any such thing ever came into prevalence in the games you currently frequent.
This is like saying bread and ham are the same thing because they always seem to be together in sandwiches...
Levels were originally created by Gary Gygax et al in the first iteration of D&D.
They were created because they were easy to keep track off with pencil and paper, suited dice rolling and gave Dungeons Masters a simple reference to look at when designing dungeons.
They were translated into fantasy computer games etc. for the same reasons, and because many gamer devs of that era were ex-roleplayers.
They have continued to be used because they are easy to program.
NOT because they are necessary, and not because they are the 'best thing'. They simply have historical weight and ease of use on their side.
If smoking hadn't been invented, and someone came into the office now saying they had a great new idea that rolling dried leaves up on paper, burning them and inhaling the smoke was enjoyable and would catch on everywhere - people would think they were mad.
Likewise, if the gaming community had grown up without levels being a historical fact, a dev suggesting future games be dumbed down to incorporate them would likewise be looked at like the village idiot.
Levels are not necessary.
If you go back to the roots of the issue - there are plenty of pen and paper RPGs that don't use them that have been successful for decades.
A lesson needs to be learned and dev's should take note from the likes of Skyrim et al - sure you can level skills and abilities, but leveling toons as a whole is crapola.
Actually it's not arrogant, nor in fact wrong.
My wife was a developer and a 'build manager' (integrates code from many devs into updated versions of the program as it grows).
She now works in mobile phones, but anyway...
Her work builds the software from the ground up - but she rarely if ever gets involved in the look of the UI, or the way in which the game or software 'plays' or is enjoyed or operates for the user...
... those decisions are made elsewhere.
Dev's require artistic and game-encompassing direction from someone else - not someone whose head is buried in code every day.
It is THIS which is lacking in games where mistakes are made and/or where innovation is missing.
Dev's ARE sucked into templates, and 'the money' is too - the tried and tested road is the less risky...
It is difficult to spend time thinking - "is this really groundbreaking" whilst animating a troll, a landspeeder or planting bloom effects on a blank playfield.
What the MMO industry needs is more visionary risk takers - because sure as hell - eventually one will hit the nail on the head and suck up 5+ millions subs without breaking a sweat.
The MMO genre is just in the 'low risk' doldrums at the moment. We just have to wait for the next paradigm shift to come.
But it won't come from the coders - that isn't their job.
Obviously. Game developers across the board agree.
Meanwhile, they are forced to go FTP, offer cash shops to make ends meet by selling what we used to get from game play, and cheapen the gaming experience for us all. It's great for them and you guys to be so right.
Once upon a time....