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Combat sucks... why so much hype?

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  • OnomasOnomas Rock Hill, SCPosts: 1,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by mmprime
    Don't get your hopes and expectations up too high. ArcheAge is still a run-of-the-mill themepark MMO at heart, with a massive pvp part at the end. It has some nice features, but they get old pretty fast.

    THink you have your games mixed up. The interviews, videos, maps, features, mechanics do not point to this. Nor what jake song has said or sandboxer.org or several other sites. And havent seen your average themepark even come close to whats offered in AA.

     

    links?

  • FilburFilbur Posts: 83Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Onomas
    links?

    My experience? ;) I'm currently playing the korean open beta.

    And if you don't believe me, just read some threads on sites like ArcheAge Source:

    http://archeagesource.com/topic/1275-after-playing-archeage-what-are-your-thoughts/

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,451Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by mmprime
    Originally posted by Onomas
    links?

    My experience? ;) I'm currently playing the korean open beta.

    And if you don't believe me, just read some threads on sites like ArcheAge Source:

    http://archeagesource.com/topic/1275-after-playing-archeage-what-are-your-thoughts/

    like this?

     

    For me the quests are so boring and lame, but indeed the rest of the stuff the game has, clearly compensates for that, so I don't really care about the quests.

    But still... I remember picking a quest and I had to... literally... "pick a flower behind the quest giver". Quest ended lol

     

    Also this which might appeal to many on either side...

     

    Well, you can stay in the starting regions, create your own little farm and enjoy some safe farming and gaming.
    That´s not my playstyle, but i think there are many people who will like this :)
     
     

    Yes, those who don't like PvP and love AA for its PvE content like the building and farming, they can make homes safety at those non PvP areas.

    But the endgame is for hardcore players with that territory control, will give back some nice L2 memories :)

    A game which has content for both type of players, its unusual indeed.

     

    etc

  • FilburFilbur Posts: 83Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sovrath

    like this?

    Like I said: It has some nice features (like gliding, ships, farming and housing), but they get old really fast. But the worst thing is: the game is too easy, fast and guided, because everything (at least on the first two continents) is controlled by questhubs. I reached level 35 (of 50) within a few days of casual playing.

  • OnomasOnomas Rock Hill, SCPosts: 1,128Member Uncommon

    you are doing it wrong then lol. And i bet you didnt play casual, be honest ;) If you go into a sandbox trying to play it like a themepark then you will get a bad experience. And i personaly dont listen to gamers here when it comes to game play....... majority of the gamers here dont know the difference between themepark and sandbox, twist things around, and usualy dont "test" a game out open minded.

     

    ^^thats not directed at anyone, just in general my rule of thumb^^^

     

    Jake Song, people that get paid to follow up on games, creditable websites, and many outside sources all point to sandbox. Except a handful of gamers. Who to believe?

  • FilburFilbur Posts: 83Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Onomas

    If you go into a sandbox trying to play it like a themepark then you will get a bad experience.

    But ArcheAge is no sandbox, it's a "sandpark" at best. It has questhubs everywhere, standard quests, levels and "classes".

    The only thing I said was: lower your expectations. ArcheAge is described as the new MMO and sandbox messiah around here, when, in reality, it's not. The game can be really fun, but it has many flaws.

  • NBlitzNBlitz ZwollePosts: 1,904Member
    Originally posted by mmprime
    Originally posted by Onomas

    If you go into a sandbox trying to play it like a themepark then you will get a bad experience.

    But ArcheAge is no sandbox, it's a "sandpark" at best. It has questhubs everywhere, standard quests, levels and "classes".

    The only thing I said was: lower your expectations. ArcheAge is described as the new MMO and sandbox messiah around here, when, in reality, it's not. The game can be really fun, but it has many flaws.

    Told you the term would crop up even more.

    Jake Song himself called it a hybrid.

  • OnomasOnomas Rock Hill, SCPosts: 1,128Member Uncommon
    As long as its an equal balance between the two and doesnt catter to one side over the other then id be happy with that. Think its about time we got rid of sandbox and themepark and just make a huge mmo with all the features, mechanics, and aspects combines. Give players choice but also allow them to have their story. I do believe these style of games are the future because our past track record of mmos hasnt been all that good minus a handful of games.
  • BiskopBiskop AvalonPosts: 709Member
    @ Onomas

    Have you played the game? If not, it's rather weird that you're telling someone who has how he should play it...

    Just sayin'.

    Seems to me a lot of people have jumped on the "next big thing" hype train here and don't want it slowed down at all.
  • OnomasOnomas Rock Hill, SCPosts: 1,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Biskop
    @ Onomas

    Have you played the game? If not, it's rather weird that you're telling someone who has how he should play it...

    Just sayin'.


    Seems to me a lot of people have jumped on the "next big thing" hype train here and don't want it slowed down at all.

    If you read my post i also said its not directed at anyone person. But most cases on this community site people go and try it and say its the greatest or its the worst. I tend not to listen to these players. That wasnt directed at him. How many times have you missed out on a game or bought one and it was worse than what was stated? I dont buy into that. But if you ahve a large open world, multiple land masses, good crafting system, and so many features more so than your average game.........and you rush through the quest line.........yes you are doing it wrong lol. Take your time, explore, craft, check stuff out, no need to hit max level in a week like a themepark game. End game content doesnt exist in a sandbox and shouldnt in a hybrid either.......just saying.

  • BiskopBiskop AvalonPosts: 709Member
    But if uou haven't tried AA you don't really know whether it rewards that sandbox style of gameplay or whether it's more geared towards linear questing.

    I mean, for example: Vanguard has a huge open, seamless world, housing, ships and side features like diplomacy, but there are still level brackets, quest lines and quest hubs. It's level based and class based. Most people would call it a themepark, albeit a rather freeform one, not a sandbox or "sandpark" or a hybrid or whatevet. What's so different about AA?
  • UhwopUhwop Wilm, DEPosts: 1,663Member Uncommon

    There's nothing wrong with tab target/ hotbar based combat. 

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,451Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by mmprime
    Originally posted by Sovrath

    like this?

    Like I said: It has some nice features (like gliding, ships, farming and housing), but they get old really fast. But the worst thing is: the game is too easy, fast and guided, because everything (at least on the first two continents) is controlled by questhubs. I reached level 35 (of 50) within a few days of casual playing.

    But isn't that subjective?

    from those quotes it seems like those players were comfortable with how the game is made. Now, having said that, I imagine there are probably more posts from people who dont' like the game.

    As long as "enough" people who do like the game and who don't think those things get old fast play it then it's not a big deal.

    I'll agree I don't like fast leveling but it seems like there is a heavy pvp focus at end game so perhaps that will make up for it. Maybe even makes sense as it allows more people to take part in it quickly.

     

  • UhwopUhwop Wilm, DEPosts: 1,663Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Biskop
    But if uou haven't tried AA you don't really know whether it rewards that sandbox style of gameplay or whether it's more geared towards linear questing.

    I mean, for example: Vanguard has a huge open, seamless world, housing, ships and side features like diplomacy, but there are still level brackets, quest lines and quest hubs. It's level based and class based. Most people would call it a themepark, albeit a rather freeform one, not a sandbox or "sandpark" or a hybrid or whatevet. What's so different about AA?

     The difference is whether or not what you can do is tied to how well you can do combat. 

    Having quests, quest hubes, storylines and such are fine. 

    The sandbox part just mean that I don't have to do those quests, or engage in combat in order to make stuff to sell, or to build a house, or to farm. 

    Everything is generally tied to your "character" class in a themepark.  Vanguard feels more sandboxy or free because there are other things to do that don't require you to be a level whatever druid, or a level whatever bard. 

    In a sandbox you can be a level 80 mage, that's fine.  Because being a level 80 mage only indicates how good your character is at being a mage, not whether or not you built the house yourself, not how good a sword you can craft.  This seems to be the part people get confused about when they start talking about sandbox or themepark. 

    They think if there's a class or a level it's not a sandbox, and that's just a mechanic because a game needs them in order to be balanced.  You still need character development, it's a pretty crappy RPG that doesn't have any character development, and if you have character development you need rules in order to keep things marginally balanced. 

    In a themepark everything is put behind that character level.  You have to earn XP and you have to be a better warrior before you can make a better sword, or before you can survive in an area to harvest.  It's not he quest, or the storylines, or the levels, or the combat, it's becuse the game revolves areound and is based on whatever level your "charcter" is. 

     

    If I can't build a house and run a farm becaue I didn't go out and kill enough monsters to earn enough XP in order to build my house or to grow a certian plant then it's not a sandbox. 

     

    And there is no such thing a a "hybrid".  It's either a sandbox or it's not, and if it's not a themepark then it has to be a sandbox. 

    Everything you can do in a themepark you can do in a sandbox, you can't make a hybrid of that. 

    People have a habit of overcomplicating things, and that's what people do when they argue "what a sandbox is". 

     

    PS:  EVE

    A game full of levels, classes, quests, and quest hubs (NPC null guys, those are quest hubs).  But I can be an industrialist from day one, by day 90 I'm just a better industrialist.  I don't have to shoot red crosses, I don't have to have lvl 5 in cruisers, I don't need to be able to fly anything more than a frigate, or ever be able to shoot a heavy assault missile. 

    My character in EVE can be effetively quantified as a level 500 (Or whatever all of my various skills add up to) industrialist in EVE.  I'm an industrialist, with millions of skillpoints in skills that are entirely level based.  I play a class, and my class has lots and lots of levels, and there are even missions (quests) I can take that actually pertain, in part, to my class. 

    EVE has pretty much everything you'll find in a themepark, even "raids", yet it's the most popular sandbox in the genre. 

    And yet peopel continue to argue that quests, quest hubs, levels, and class don't belong in a sandbox. 

  • OnomasOnomas Rock Hill, SCPosts: 1,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Uhwop
    Originally posted by Biskop
    But if uou haven't tried AA you don't really know whether it rewards that sandbox style of gameplay or whether it's more geared towards linear questing.

    I mean, for example: Vanguard has a huge open, seamless world, housing, ships and side features like diplomacy, but there are still level brackets, quest lines and quest hubs. It's level based and class based. Most people would call it a themepark, albeit a rather freeform one, not a sandbox or "sandpark" or a hybrid or whatevet. What's so different about AA?

     The difference is whether or not what you can do is tied to how well you can do combat. 

    Having quests, quest hubes, storylines and such are fine. 

    The sandbox part just mean that I don't have to do those quests, or engage in combat in order to make stuff to sell, or to build a house, or to farm. 

    Everything is generally tied to your "character" class in a themepark.  Vanguard feels more sandboxy or free because there are other things to do that don't require you to be a level whatever druid, or a level whatever bard. 

    In a sandbox you can be a level 80 mage, that's fine.  Because being a level 80 mage only indicates how good your character is at being a mage, not whether or not you built the house yourself, not how good a sword you can craft.  This seems to be the part people get confused about when they start talking about sandbox or themepark. 

    They think if there's a class or a level it's not a sandbox, and that's just a mechanic because a game needs them in order to be balanced.  You still need character development, it's a pretty crappy RPG that doesn't have any character development, and if you have character development you need rules in order to keep things marginally balanced. 

    In a themepark everything is put behind that character level.  You have to earn XP and you have to be a better warrior before you can make a better sword, or before you can survive in an area to harvest.  It's not he quest, or the storylines, or the levels, or the combat, it's becuse the game revolves areound and is based on whatever level your "charcter" is. 

     

    If I can't build a house and run a farm becaue I didn't go out and kill enough monsters to earn enough XP in order to build my house or to grow a certian plant then it's not a sandbox. 

     

    And there is no such thing a a "hybrid".  It's either a sandbox or it's not, and if it's not a themepark then it has to be a sandbox. 

    Everything you can do in a themepark you can do in a sandbox, you can't make a hybrid of that. 

    People have a habit of overcomplicating things, and that's what people do when they argue "what a sandbox is". 

     

    PS:  EVE

    A game full of levels, classes, quests, and quest hubs (NPC null guys, those are quest hubs).  But I can be an industrialist from day one, by day 90 I'm just a better industrialist.  I don't have to shoot red crosses, I don't have to have lvl 5 in cruisers, I don't need to be able to fly anything more than a frigate, or ever be able to shoot a heavy assault missile. 

    My character in EVE can be effetively quantified as a level 500 (Or whatever all of my various skills add up to) industrialist in EVE.  I'm an industrialist, with millions of skillpoints in skills that are entirely level based.  I play a class, and my class has lots and lots of levels, and there are even missions (quests) I can take that actually pertain, in part, to my class. 

    EVE has pretty much everything you'll find in a themepark, even "raids", yet it's the most popular sandbox in the genre. 

    And yet peopel continue to argue that quests, quest hubs, levels, and class don't belong in a sandbox. 

    image

    I got tired of explaining that and just went with the hybrid term. But this is correct a sandbox has everything included not limited to anyone thing.

  • KuinnKuinn MestaPosts: 2,093Member

    I like both action and tab-target combat when executed well. What makes a game for me is everything around the combat besides it. The reason why hordes of modern MMO's have failed in my eyes is always connected to the big picture, bad quality, lack of features, simpliness etc.

     

    I loved TERA combat but quit at lvl25 because the world is dead and monotonic grind of simple quests with no other ways to play the game. MMO's need variation and different gameplay mechanics, that's why I want to play a mmorpg, too bad they usually end up being linear BS quest grinders with boring open worlds with very little immersive content in their stupid single-use maps.

  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INPosts: 3,731Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Celusios
    This game is nothing but recycled non skill based auto target fighting. Why do you people hype it up so much?

         From the vids I have seen it sure isn't very impressive.....COmbat was basicaly bang-banmg dead bang-bang dead and on and on.

  • UhwopUhwop Wilm, DEPosts: 1,663Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Onomas
     

    image

    I got tired of explaining that and just went with the hybrid term. But this is correct a sandbox has everything included not limited to anyone thing.

     It just annoys the hell out of me beause the new things seems to be this idea that "hybrids" are the way of the future. 

    They are right, hybrids appear to be the future of MMO's. 

    As in, a hybrid between a single player RPG and an MMORPG.  IE: ToR, GW2, and eventually TESO.  The "personal story" mechanic is the "hybrid", not the style of game it is though. 

    How the hell do you make a "partially restricted" game, which is exactly what "hybrid sandbox/ themepark" means. 

    Vanguard and Lineage 2 are games I would ever even consider calling hybrids.  Neither are sandboxes, but they're not as restrictive as your WoW style themepark.  They are both still very much themeparks, but they give you a feeling of being more "sandboxy" beause they're not as restricting as a typical themepark.  That's not AA though, nor any other type of MMO that people want to apply "hybrid" too. 

     

     

    I'm a realist though.  I know most people are just making cases for their opinions, either in support for or in opposition of a particullar game. 

    Even the OP is basically making the passive agressive arguement that the combat system, not only is old and boring, but that AA isn't really the sandbox people expect because it's more of a "hybrid".   Afterall, it appears to offer everything you find in a typical themepark; obviously the content and combat mechanics define the game. 

  • jskeets916jskeets916 Folsom, CAPosts: 154Member
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by mmprime
    Originally posted by Sovrath

    like this?

    Like I said: It has some nice features (like gliding, ships, farming and housing), but they get old really fast. But the worst thing is: the game is too easy, fast and guided, because everything (at least on the first two continents) is controlled by questhubs. I reached level 35 (of 50) within a few days of casual playing.

    But isn't that subjective?

    from those quotes it seems like those players were comfortable with how the game is made. Now, having said that, I imagine there are probably more posts from people who dont' like the game.

    As long as "enough" people who do like the game and who don't think those things get old fast play it then it's not a big deal.

    I'll agree I don't like fast leveling but it seems like there is a heavy pvp focus at end game so perhaps that will make up for it. Maybe even makes sense as it allows more people to take part in it quickly.

     

    But isn't THAT subjective?

    Ha sorry couldn't help myself but unless your just posting links and threads subjectivity and speculation is what you will get...

    That being said i agree with the op and his "subjective" statements at least they come from someone who as played the game up until level 35 which garners much more credibility than your or most of the statements i've read in this thread.

    A fast paced game with quest-hubs with heavy pvp endgame sandbox like features, this will take some ridiculous polish or addictive combat (which isn't the case) in order to retain most players at launch

  • BiskopBiskop AvalonPosts: 709Member
    People just keep arguing about what a sandbox is and pretend their personal opinions on the matter are facts. There is no ultimate definition of the term, accept that.

    Also, those who are most eager to proclaim AA to be a true sandbox seems to be those who haven't played it, which is a bad sign imho. People are obviously desperate for something new.
  • Ramonski7Ramonski7 Aurora, ILPosts: 2,656Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Biskop
    People just keep arguing about what a sandbox is and pretend their personal opinions on the matter are facts. There is no ultimate definition of the term, accept that.

    Also, those who are most eager to proclaim AA to be a true sandbox seems to be those who haven't played it, which is a bad sign imho. People are obviously desperate for something new.

    Honestly I could care less what people are calling AA. Sandbox, sandpark, themebox I don't give a damn really. As long as I can be a home builder at level one and actually build a home and start a farm, I'm good. The minute I run into the old combat stipulation that you need level 50 pertified wood found near the waterhole of man eating dragons and said dragons are level 100 thus requiring me to be a certain level to even get any in order to finish my first house and farm, I'm out. I have no time to deviate from the path I have pictured for my avatar to follow just because devs decided to fuck it up by gating me off from resources in a retarded attempt to add "challenge" to every task or hinder gold farmers. Especially in a so called "hybrid" mmo were freedom is touted about like a peacock feathered hat.

    I usually set my own goals in sandbox games. It's like planning a strategy for things to come:

    1. Survey the area
    2. establish a camp
    3. secure resources and build skills
    4. establish an income
    5. build a base (home)
    6. stockpile equipment and supplies
    7. explore out further
    8. discover better resources
    9. start step 1 again and repeat (skipping step 5 now)
    This is my blueprint. If I run into challenges on step 7 (pvp or pve) and cannot over come them, I return to base and plan out a response and head out again. No where in there do I consciously think about the label placed on the game itself. If AA even comes close to letting me do this then I'll be a-freakin-ok.

    image
    "Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."

  • CyclopsSlayerCyclopsSlayer Minneapolis, MNPosts: 532Member
    Originally posted by Ramonski7
    Originally posted by Biskop
    People just keep arguing about what a sandbox is and pretend their personal opinions on the matter are facts. There is no ultimate definition of the term, accept that.

    Also, those who are most eager to proclaim AA to be a true sandbox seems to be those who haven't played it, which is a bad sign imho. People are obviously desperate for something new.

    Honestly I could care less what people are calling AA. Sandbox, sandpark, themebox I don't give a damn really. As long as I can be a home builder at level one and actually build a home and start a farm, I'm good. The minute I run into the old combat stipulation that you need level 50 pertified wood found near the waterhole of man eating dragons and said dragons are level 100 thus requiring me to be a certain level to even get any in order to finish my first house and farm, I'm out. I have no time to deviate from the path I have pictured for my avatar to follow just because devs decided to fuck it up by gating me off from resources in a retarded attempt to add "challenge" to every task or hinder gold farmers. Especially in a so called "hybrid" mmo were freedom is touted about like a peacock feathered hat.

    I usually set my own goals in sandbox games. It's like planning a strategy for things to come:

    1. Survey the area
    2. establish a camp
    3. secure resources and build skills
    4. establish an income
    5. build a base (home)
    6. stockpile equipment and supplies
    7. explore out further
    8. discover better resources
    9. start step 1 again and repeat (skipping step 5 now)
    This is my blueprint. If I run into challenges on step 7 (pvp or pve) and cannot over come them, I return to base and plan out a response and head out again. No where in there do I consciously think about the label placed on the game itself. If AA even comes close to letting me do this then I'll be a-freakin-ok.

    Shouldn't be a problem as mechanisms for all those are in game.

    3. Not all skills and skill combos are created equal, so lots of room there. Yes there are 120 combinations of the skill schools, but with 23 points to allocate between the upto 48 skills, how you focus may make you radically different than another character with the same 3 schools.

    4. NPC trade routes, Player sales from your crafting, Gathering and sales of crafting materials, as well as the traditional kill a bandit for 10 copper.

    5. Access to Housing is needed for post L40 crafting. Small protected farming areas for materials production, as well as items planted in the wild that are up for grabs if found by others.

    6. Crafting is supposed to produce the 'best' or at least equivalent to the best gear. Potions, Food, Armor, Weapons...

    7/8. The Northern "Origins" continent is the free-for-all zone, castles can only be built there, some resources can only be found there.

     

    The perfect game? No... But just closer to it than most of the drek out there or coming anytime soon.

  • hockeyplayrhockeyplayr Middlesex, NJPosts: 604Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ramanadjinn
    if combat were the only thing that mattered we'd all be playing Tera.

    +1

  • Ramonski7Ramonski7 Aurora, ILPosts: 2,656Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by CyclopsSlayer
    Originally posted by Ramonski7
    Originally posted by Biskop
    People just keep arguing about what a sandbox is and pretend their personal opinions on the matter are facts. There is no ultimate definition of the term, accept that.

    Also, those who are most eager to proclaim AA to be a true sandbox seems to be those who haven't played it, which is a bad sign imho. People are obviously desperate for something new.

    Honestly I could care less what people are calling AA. Sandbox, sandpark, themebox I don't give a damn really. As long as I can be a home builder at level one and actually build a home and start a farm, I'm good. The minute I run into the old combat stipulation that you need level 50 pertified wood found near the waterhole of man eating dragons and said dragons are level 100 thus requiring me to be a certain level to even get any in order to finish my first house and farm, I'm out. I have no time to deviate from the path I have pictured for my avatar to follow just because devs decided to fuck it up by gating me off from resources in a retarded attempt to add "challenge" to every task or hinder gold farmers. Especially in a so called "hybrid" mmo were freedom is touted about like a peacock feathered hat.

    I usually set my own goals in sandbox games. It's like planning a strategy for things to come:

    1. Survey the area
    2. establish a camp
    3. secure resources and build skills
    4. establish an income
    5. build a base (home)
    6. stockpile equipment and supplies
    7. explore out further
    8. discover better resources
    9. start step 1 again and repeat (skipping step 5 now)
    This is my blueprint. If I run into challenges on step 7 (pvp or pve) and cannot over come them, I return to base and plan out a response and head out again. No where in there do I consciously think about the label placed on the game itself. If AA even comes close to letting me do this then I'll be a-freakin-ok.

    Shouldn't be a problem as mechanisms for all those are in game.

    3. Not all skills and skill combos are created equal, so lots of room there. Yes there are 120 combinations of the skill schools, but with 23 points to allocate between the upto 48 skills, how you focus may make you radically different than another character with the same 3 schools.

    4. NPC trade routes, Player sales from your crafting, Gathering and sales of crafting materials, as well as the traditional kill a bandit for 10 copper.

    5. Access to Housing is needed for post L40 crafting. Small protected farming areas for materials production, as well as items planted in the wild that are up for grabs if found by others.

    6. Crafting is supposed to produce the 'best' or at least equivalent to the best gear. Potions, Food, Armor, Weapons...

    7/8. The Northern "Origins" continent is the free-for-all zone, castles can only be built there, some resources can only be found there.

     

    The perfect game? No... But just closer to it than most of the drek out there or coming anytime soon.

    Thank you CSlayer by your description AA seems to be just about right up my alley. Plus graphics that are easy on the eyes. I always liked the idea of the free4all zones to give players a little more risk vs rewards. Posters here seem to think many here looking at AA are caught up in labels. When they are so far from the truth it ain't even funny.

    It seems many of the more level headed posters that I've bumped into on AA forums are experienced enough to know that words can only get you so far and many are looking for their own paths to carve out in a mmo. It's not all about combat, leveling speed, graphics, story or endgame. For many it's about how unique can I make my journey from the next adventurer. And possibly swap experiences with others and make a few friends along the way. But for that to happen devs have to stop trying to lead players into short term goals like raids, gear and level caps or caught up in one or two unique features like combat or questing.

    image
    "Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."

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