Originally posted by ObiClownobi I think CCP have more cash than Cd project, I think CCP will release first, I base this on the same evidence you are using, the voices in my head.
Good Sir, you seem a very perky sort and very energetic. I am sure that instead of adding absolutely nothing to the discussion you could take the time to find out the info yourself, after all self education is the best education.
/tips hat
-Damn monocle fell out-
I am asking you to supply the evidence you are using for your assertations, without that we can only assume you are making up the facts based on the voices in your head. You made the assertations, you provide the evidence. Of course you might not be able to
"It's a sandbox, if you are not willing to create a castle then all you have is sand" - jtcgs
Originally posted by sketocafe CCP is making an MMO, CD Project is making a standalone RPG. So no.
Derp, I covered that. Fact is the game CD Projekt are attempting is as complex and as challenging as creating an MMO. The challenges they face are different but both are difficult in there own way.
CD Projekt are creating RPG mechanics covering over 4700 pages in 44 books, in a game filled with huge detail and no set linear path. Its basically trying to create something as detail heavy and as free formed as Morrowind combined with one of Biowares better RPGs like DA:O. The game will also have true next gen graphics. This is not something thats easily done
I don't get your point, it makes no sense
Why would CCP be ashamed because another development company is making a complex single player RPG? Should they also be embarrassed because Bethesda made Skyrim and it was sold millions of copies?
There is very little correlation technically around the development of how an MMO and a single player game is designed. So no, CCP shouldn't be ashamed
-snipping a bunch of useless stuff-
What you don't get, is that CCP has to continually funnel money into EvE, their only real source of income. Remember Monoclegate? That cost them funds due to loss of players, and have been scrambling to implement more player-wanted mechanics and overhauls into EvE Online.
Supporting servers, paying staff for development of new content as well as reworking what is there, it all costs money. Money that is also being used to fund Dust 514's development (Which as a F2P title means there is no guarantee of money from every player). At the time, their cash was split in three ways, EvE, Dust, and WoD.
Considering one of those three titles weren't even in a showable state, when money-squeezing time came, they had to throw one title on the backburner, in order to support their money makers and thus make money.
CD Projekt doesn't have that issue. At most, they pay for upkeep on a site, upkeep that is far less costly than an MMO, and doesn't require nearly as much support. They also aren't stuck constantly having to develop and update a game while trying to work on others. While there is no monthly source of income, overhead is also more than likely lower.
And nowhere has it been stated at all that developing their Cyberpunk title is as costly or hard as an MMO, so you can drop that weak bit of an opinionated argument right there. There is only one title that the Projekt's dev team Red is working on, and thats the Cyberpunk game, with rumors of a 3rd Witcher title popping up.
That's still 2 games compared to Eve's 3 (counting WoD of course).
So no. CCP shouldn't be ashamed of themselves, because there is no bloody reason to. You though, should certainly feel ashamed for yourself due to your lack of insight into any of this, despite you listing off what I essentially just did, as well as an obvious lack of understanding on your part towards the studios and there positions.
Thread Derp MkII
I listed CCPs financial position relative to CD Projekt in the OP. You also seem unaware of the costs implied in creating next Gen graphics, Epic and Crytek estimate next gen graphics will cost twice or even three times as much to create compared to this gen and will need a huge increase in development time, more artists need to work on the massive level of detail and lighting effects. The Programing behind them is also more difficult.
So the graphics are a challenge enough then you marry that to a very complicated game, I will not list the challenges again to people who just do not get the challenges that Devs face when creating a game as complicated as a triple AAA next gen RPG with a world as detailed as CyberPunk will be. A game like Cyberpunk runs into the Millions. Other games with multiplatform releases easily hits $30 million, then CyberPunk has the extra costs related to its next gen graphics
Good Old Games needs development time too, for example they have began converting all their titles to be guaranteed to work in windows 8.
Just maintaining a website indeed, you have all the gall to call me unaware of things. You didn't have a clue about the development cost of next gen graphics nor how much a game like this would cost and you called GoG "just maintaining a website" Please do some research before trying to call me out.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush, Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light, Company of Heroes II.
Originally posted by ObiClownobi I think CCP have more cash than Cd project, I think CCP will release first, I base this on the same evidence you are using, the voices in my head.
Good Sir, you seem a very perky sort and very energetic. I am sure that instead of adding absolutely nothing to the discussion you could take the time to find out the info yourself, after all self education is the best education.
/tips hat
-Damn monocle fell out-
I am asking you to supply the evidence you are using for your assertations, without that we can only assume you are making up the facts based on the voices in your head. You made the assertations, you provide the evidence. Of course you might not be able to
Well considering that my post didn't need "evidence" as anything I posted is either quite obvious or quite firmly laid out as speculation, obviously speculation has no "evidence". My post wasn't an essay or part of some coursework that needed cross referenced sources, just speculation about how one company can get a difficult project up and moving and CCP cant. You can others completely missed the point and it was well over your heads.
Do you need me to link evidence when I "asserted" games are challenging to develop? I thought that would be pretty obvious. Do I need to prove CCP own EVE have started WoD? Do I need to prove CD Projekt RED own GoG and are making CyberPunkl?
I thought it was pretty clear that this post was speculation. People didn't get it though, its not about CD Projekt RED its about CCP. I am using CD Projekt as a comparison thats all. Let me dumb it down, if one company get their shit together and get something done why cant another.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush, Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light, Company of Heroes II.
Originally posted by ObiClownobi I think CCP have more cash than Cd project, I think CCP will release first, I base this on the same evidence you are using, the voices in my head.
Good Sir, you seem a very perky sort and very energetic. I am sure that instead of adding absolutely nothing to the discussion you could take the time to find out the info yourself, after all self education is the best education.
/tips hat
-Damn monocle fell out-
I am asking you to supply the evidence you are using for your assertations, without that we can only assume you are making up the facts based on the voices in your head. You made the assertations, you provide the evidence. Of course you might not be able to
Well considering that my post didn't need "evidence" as anything I posted is either quite obvious or quite firmly laid out as speculation, obviously speculation has no "evidence". My post wasn't an essay or part of some coursework that needed cross referenced sources, just speculation about how one company can get a difficult project up and moving and CCP cant. You can others completely missed the point and it was well over your heads.
Do you need me to link evidence when I "asserted" games are challenging to develop? I thought that would be pretty obvious. Do I need to prove CCP own EVE have started WoD? Do I need to prove CD Projekt RED own GoG and are making CyberPunkl?
I thought it was pretty clear that this post was speculation. People didn't get it though, its not about CD Projekt RED its about CCP. I am using CD Projekt as a comparison thats all. Let me dumb it down, if one company get their shit together and get something done why cant another.
Thank you for clarifying, I can now answer.
No, CCP should not be ashamed because of the speculations of yourself.
"It's a sandbox, if you are not willing to create a castle then all you have is sand" - jtcgs
CCP has already gotten one MMO out the door, and is very close to releasing a second MMO on the console platform. Their third MMO has had development stall because of funding. Should their second game release and be successful, they will have no issues securing funding for their third MMORPG.
CD Projekt Red has had great success with a single player game, but have never produced an MMO. Whether they even get the MMO out the door remains to be seen. It also remains to be seen whether or not the game will attract an audience. They are as yet unproven in the MMO market.
Should CCP be ashamed because another developer is doing something? No.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I don't think that we can so easily say that the WoD project hasn't been going well. We don't know how it's been going.
There was some reprioritizing during the financial bottleneck when EVE players decided that a feature they'd requested in EVE since beta was some kind of betrayal to even think about. But there's been a lot of moving back to WoD since then, especially as DUST 514's development is coming to a close.
I think that if CCP has not ‘gotten its shit together’ in some regard, it's in that they failed to anticipate how schizophrenically volatile a huge part of their community would be in reaction to Incarna.
Favorites: EQ, EVE | Playing: None. Mostly VR and strategy | Anticipating: CU, Pantheon
Most EVE players know that CCP merged with White Wolf, White Wolf produced a well known and loved pen and paper RPG. CCP wanted to pick up the World of Darkness IP and make a game. It would be no exaggeration to say things have not gone so well for the project, years have passed and the test bed for it has been through its own set of problems and effectively put on the back burner. Apart from a few screens and a tasty looking trailer we have seen nothing to show us a game is anywhere near happening.
Now CD Projekt RED, a small dev like CCP have announced they will be releasing their own RPG based on a PnP RPG, they are going all out and created a full team of some of their veteran devs to get the project moving. Its hard to say if CD Projekt RED have more resources than CCP, CD Projekt had an awesome success with the Witcher franchise and GoG is shaping up as a viable DRM free Steam alternative. Good Old Games is certainly not as big as Steam but its creating its own loyal fanbase bit by bit, think of Steam in 2007 and thats kinda where GoG is at.
CCP have a constant income from EVE and had several multinational studios, but they fact they had financial problems is no secret and unfortunately they had to lay off a lot of staff. If I was to make a guess I would say CD Projekt had the fatter warchest. Still CCP have had year after year to get something done with World of Darkness, although an MMO and an RPG are different technically creating worlds as detailed as CD Projekt do is a whole heap of its own challenges. They are apples and oranges but both are as challenging in their own way. They are really going to push the boat out for this game too, with an amazingly detailed world and true next gen graphics.
So CD Projekt Red will probably release CyberPunk 2077 long before CCP can release World of Darkness. So the question is why cant CCP, an experienced Dev create the game they have years to work on?
To answer your question, no, they should be very proud of themselves.
Sorry to say, but i never seen a good mmorpg comes out from PnP, they all talked big, than stop at half way and change what the whole big want and not for the fans, losing what we liked in PnP version. (Warhammer, Neverwinter what is a Forgotten Realms D&D world...etc.)
I have no hope for a good WoD simply because they can't make it that way what WoD to be...
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
It was just an attempt at some speculative discussion about why CCP cannot get anywhere with WoD. Not a bloody college thesis. Jeez, lose some of the seriousness about how everything has evidence. You know this is a forum right? Where people post opinions?
Do you sit with a friend and demand they bring evidence to the discussion. Besides the info is out there, like the presentations on YouTube. They are easy enough to find, do you really need hand holding for that too?
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush, Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light, Company of Heroes II.
It was just an attempt at some speculative discussion about why CCP cannot get anywhere with WoD. Not a bloody college thesis. Jeez, lose some of the seriousness about how everything has evidence. You know this is a forum right? Where people post opinions?
Do you sit with a friend and demand they bring evidence to the discussion. Besides the info is out there, like the presentations on YouTube. They are easy enough to find, do you really need hand holding for that too?
It's a simple principle, you made the statement, you provide the evidence for the statement, why would people search the Internet for information that only you say exists.
I have lost "the seriousness", I don't take what you say seriously.
"It's a sandbox, if you are not willing to create a castle then all you have is sand" - jtcgs
It was just an attempt at some speculative discussion about why CCP cannot get anywhere with WoD. Not a bloody college thesis. Jeez, lose some of the seriousness about how everything has evidence. You know this is a forum right? Where people post opinions?
Do you sit with a friend and demand they bring evidence to the discussion. Besides the info is out there, like the presentations on YouTube. They are easy enough to find, do you really need hand holding for that too?
Interesting. Before my edit, my comment was basically two things -
1) that it would help if you explained what information you are basing your stance on. Just asking you to share where you are getting that 'CCP cannot get anywhere' with the game. As far as I know, they are still working on it. As far as I know, they haven't shared how far along it is, but evidently you know so it's not unreasonable to ask where you are getting that.
2) several people have asked for more information in order to be able to discuss it with you and they have received defensive responses, snarky remarks and ad hominems.
Let's try again.
Hi, I'm Lok. You asked a question and made a statement that are both interesting
"So the question is why cant CCP, an experienced Dev create the game they have years to work on?"
"CCP cannot get anywhere with WoD"
This is something I hadn't heard before. Can you share with us your information on the development of World of Darkness. I haven't seen much out there and I was under the impression they were still working on it, although I don't know how far along they are. To answer the title, though: No, I don't feel CCP should be ashamed of themselves as they seem to be doing well with their existing title, releasing a second title, integrating those two, and working on the third title, as well.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Heretique Honestly, whatever the reason for putting WoD on the back burner probably had to be a decent one.CCP did a great job with EvE and they would do the same for WoD, not rush it.
It all comes down to money. The expended a bunch of it, and apparently had to back track because their players changed their minds.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
It was just an attempt at some speculative discussion about why CCP cannot get anywhere with WoD. Not a bloody college thesis. Jeez, lose some of the seriousness about how everything has evidence. You know this is a forum right? Where people post opinions?
Do you sit with a friend and demand they bring evidence to the discussion. Besides the info is out there, like the presentations on YouTube. They are easy enough to find, do you really need hand holding for that too?
It's a simple principle, you made the statement, you provide the evidence for the statement, why would people search the Internet for information that only you say exists.
I have lost "the seriousness", I don't take what you say seriously.
I did not present a "statement" I posted some opinions, when someone tells you they like a particular brand of coffee do you demand they present evidence for that? Get off your high horse and drop the pseudo intellectualism and realize a forum like this is for presenting opinions. You have added nothing of value to the topic except to try and troll the opinion I posted.
All I was really trying to say is that if one small independent dev can turn a complicated PnP game into a game why cant CCP, not write a bloody thesis or hand hold people that cant be bothered to go find out any info themselves.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush, Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light, Company of Heroes II.
It was just an attempt at some speculative discussion about why CCP cannot get anywhere with WoD. Not a bloody college thesis. Jeez, lose some of the seriousness about how everything has evidence. You know this is a forum right? Where people post opinions?
Do you sit with a friend and demand they bring evidence to the discussion. Besides the info is out there, like the presentations on YouTube. They are easy enough to find, do you really need hand holding for that too?
Interesting. Before my edit, my comment was basically two things -
1) that it would help if you explained what information you are basing your stance on. Just asking you to share where you are getting that 'CCP cannot get anywhere' with the game. As far as I know, they are still working on it. As far as I know, they haven't shared how far along it is, but evidently you know so it's not unreasonable to ask where you are getting that.
2) several people have asked for more information in order to be able to discuss it with you and they have received defensive responses, snarky remarks and ad hominems.
Let's try again.
Hi, I'm Lok. You asked a question and made a statement that are both interesting
"So the question is why cant CCP, an experienced Dev create the game they have years to work on?"
"CCP cannot get anywhere with WoD"
This is something I hadn't heard before. Can you share with us your information on the development of World of Darkness. I haven't seen much out there and I was under the impression they were still working on it, although I don't know how far along they are. To answer the title, though: No, I don't feel CCP should be ashamed of themselves as they seem to be doing well with their existing title, releasing a second title, integrating those two, and working on the third title, as well.
Once again I am not presenting a "statement" I voiced an opinion. In this case my opinion comes from me following CCP for 7 years. They bought White Wolf quite a while ago. I think the game is going nowhere based on the terribleness of the test bed for WoD and the way that if anything significant was happening with it we would never hear the end about it.
For both Dust and EVE are massively promoted, they are constantly making videos showing behind the scenes and every stage of development. Yet we see or hear absolutely nothing about World of Darkness.
My opinion that its not going well come from the way the test bed didn't work out so well and from a company thats constantly promoting their other two products have barely told us a single thing or shown no clips in all these years.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush, Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light, Company of Heroes II.
CCP should be ashammed of the greediness of that Monocule thingy they where trying to sell, the joke of a game dust, and cutting back on the development wod to focus on dust and eve from the backlash.
It was just an attempt at some speculative discussion about why CCP cannot get anywhere with WoD. Not a bloody college thesis. Jeez, lose some of the seriousness about how everything has evidence. You know this is a forum right? Where people post opinions?
Do you sit with a friend and demand they bring evidence to the discussion. Besides the info is out there, like the presentations on YouTube. They are easy enough to find, do you really need hand holding for that too?
It's a simple principle, you made the statement, you provide the evidence for the statement, why would people search the Internet for information that only you say exists.
I have lost "the seriousness", I don't take what you say seriously.
I did not present a "statement" I posted some opinions, when someone tells you they like a particular brand of coffee do you demand they present evidence for that? Get off your high horse and drop the pseudo intellectualism and realize a forum like this is for presenting opinions. You have added nothing of value to the topic except to try and troll the opinion I posted.
All I was really trying to say is that if one small independent dev can turn a complicated PnP game into a game why cant CCP, not write a bloody thesis or hand hold people that cant be bothered to go find out any info themselves.
If someone tells me they like a brand of coffee I take their opinion as is, when someone tells me Nestlé are struggling to manufacture their coffee and that another company is beating them on coffee making efficiency I ask where they got that information.
"It's a sandbox, if you are not willing to create a castle then all you have is sand" - jtcgs
Seeing as I'm busy reading up for my exam, I did not read the 5 pages of comments. Sorry if the following has already been said.
A singleplayer game cannot be compared with an MMO. They're two very different beasts. Also, just because CD Projekt is promising all these things, you can't say that it'll happen. Look at Dungeons & Dragons Online; Just because the rules are there etc., they do not always translate well and are often either neclected or left alone because of the "complexity" of translating.
Besides this, having an open world is, apparently, hard. (I base this on the amount of both MMO- and SP-games without an open world). Then take into account stuff like decisions that matter to the game world. This is harder in an MMO (for obvious reasons), but apparently also hard in SP games (I base this on the amount of SP games where your actions don't matter).
Also, a lot of the stuff CCP have been doing with WOD (according to press releases, I think - or maybe just dev's speaking), a lot of the stuff they're doing wouldn't be possible a couple of years ago. They've also released a couple of videos showing off the graphics and physics of WOD (at least what they've done thus far, such as having a dress that correctly interacts with the surroundings; like sliding down the stairs). Their character editor is (or was, I havn't followed other character editors) first class, with the ability to pull various parts of the body to shape it (they've brought it to EVE; I assume because they wanted to test it on real people :P).
Granted, there's VERY little news on WOD's development. CCP are, and who can blame them, developing on their cash cow(s): EVE and DUST. But they are, last I heard (some press release, and/or devblog talking re: layoffs), still developing on WOD. But they want it to be the best it can be - and do not want to develop something that'll fail because it's too different from what people are expecting.
CD Projekt's Witcher franchise is.. Nice, I guess. I havn't played the games yet, but they're sitting in my backlog. However, having the privilige of being able to focus on one game is an advantage. They're also working on a singleplayer game, which, as I stated previously, is a different beast.
I do, however, think there are several reasons why there aren't more games out there like the Elderscrolls series. I believe it's hard. And that's why I also think CD Projekt may not know what they've gotten themselves into. But who knows. Maybe it'll turn out better than the D&D translations that have been. But even if it does come out before WOD, it proves nothing. Because they're so different.
Lastly, no. I do not think CCP should be ashamed of themselves. They have a bunch of good things, and a bunch of bad things. Hopefully the first outweigh the latter, but who knows? I'm wanting a WOD mmo as much as the next guy, but I don't want another WoW clone (or similar). I want a game that I can be proud of playing; something that has translated well. Something like the singleplayer games, but bigger and better. All of this is hard to do. And as such, no. They've got nothing to be ashamed of (or, rather, not in this case).
In summation. CD Projekt has taken on a beast of a challenge, but it's a SP game. Therefore, they cannot properly be compared (CD Projekt's project and WOD). It doesn't matter which game comes out first. As such, CCP shouldn't be ashamed.
FakeEdit: I would find some links, but, as stated in the top of this reply, I'm busy reading for my exam.
Real edit:
Originally posted by yutty CCP should be ashammed of the greediness of that Monocule thingy they where trying to sell, the joke of a game dust, and cutting back on the development wod to focus on dust and eve from the backlash.
So they should be ashamed that they reacted to the outcry of their community, and decided to actually focus on their communitys game of choice? They should, perhaps, be ashamed that it took an outcry of that magnitude for them to focus on their released games (even though the community had been asking for ages). Also, it takes resources to develop something; they don't have many. They took a managerial decision and focused on what people were screaming at them to focus on. It's too bad that it hit WOD development, but, alas, Newton's laws of motion also play into stuff such as this.
Real edit #2: I'd love to see where you get all the information from, though. You know, the whole "next gen graphics", "detailed world", etc. Because, from where I'm sitting, that's more-or-less what every half-decent developer will promise their fanbase during the announcement/development of a game. Words and actions are, however, completely different things.
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CCP hasn't been hiding anything from anyone. According to this article, they said they took on too much, and had to scale back. Eve and Dust are the priority items. WoD is still being worked on.
It took them five years to develop Eve, and another three or four to really get going with the game. I don't see why WoD would be something they rush through, especially as a low priority item.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
On top of the fact that CCP is trying to make an mmo versus a singleplayer game, keep in mind that CCP also has to continually develop content for eve that the playerbase likes, and that a large part of their income gets invested directly back into the game. When incarna was released, players threatened to jump games (many did) due to not liking the focusing of resources on WiS (or any content outside of internet spaceships). CCP went into damage control and I'd say recovered from it quite well, but EVE's playerbase is generally well informed, aware of CCP's reliance on their sub, and vengeful. Suffice to say the majority of CCP's income will always go back into EVE.
Originally posted by Garkan Originally posted by sketocafeCCP is making an MMO, CD Project is making a standalone RPG. So no.
Derp, I covered that. Fact is the game CD Projekt are attempting is as complex and as challenging as creating an MMO. The challenges they face are different but both are difficult in there own way. CD Projekt are creating RPG mechanics covering over 4700 pages in 44 books, in a game filled with huge detail and no set linear path. Its basically trying to create something as detail heavy and as free formed as Morrowind combined with one of Biowares better RPGs like DA:O. The game will also have true next gen graphics. This is not something thats easily done
Eh, those 44 books are not all rules...
The core rules are explained in a single book. That book has a lot of lore in it aswell, in addition to item descriptions, examples etc.
The other 43 books MIGHT have one page worth of additions or revisions, but most of them are more lore, items etc.
That said, a multiplayer game is a vastly different animal than a singleplayer game. The latter is infinitely easier to produce, which is why they usually seem a lot more intricate. As a dev, you have a lot more freedom making a game when you only have one player to worry about, and his interaction with the game world. You can have the game change around just for the player, so to speak.
In a multiplayer game you have to design for interactions between both the game world AND the player - Depending on the amount of players you want involved it gets infinitely more complex to design properly. You can't really have the game change just for one player, it has to change for everyone. But how do you do this? Do you block swabs of content off because one single player did something specific? Do you leave everything as it is even though some groups of players have done different things to make change happen? How do you balance out skill levels and player abilities so that a small group of players can't game the system to make it impossible for the others to play?
So many more factors enter into designing a multiplayer game that it's not funny anymore - Especially RPG's where the interaction is not limited to 'point at something and shoot it'. Even in shooters it can be difficult to get it right.
And lastly, a singleplayer game doesn't 'need' the same amount of content as a multiplayer game. A SP game can be finished in a weekend, maybe a week of fulltime play, and people will be content, shelving it to maybe pull it out again after a year or two.
A multiplayer game has to be intersting to play for not just one weekend, but every weekend. This brings even MORE issues to the table compared to singleplayer games.
It's not even close to as easy as you make it out to be...
Comments
I am asking you to supply the evidence you are using for your assertations, without that we can only assume you are making up the facts based on the voices in your head. You made the assertations, you provide the evidence. Of course you might not be able to
"It's a sandbox, if you are not willing to create a castle then all you have is sand" - jtcgs
I listed CCPs financial position relative to CD Projekt in the OP. You also seem unaware of the costs implied in creating next Gen graphics, Epic and Crytek estimate next gen graphics will cost twice or even three times as much to create compared to this gen and will need a huge increase in development time, more artists need to work on the massive level of detail and lighting effects. The Programing behind them is also more difficult.
So the graphics are a challenge enough then you marry that to a very complicated game, I will not list the challenges again to people who just do not get the challenges that Devs face when creating a game as complicated as a triple AAA next gen RPG with a world as detailed as CyberPunk will be. A game like Cyberpunk runs into the Millions. Other games with multiplatform releases easily hits $30 million, then CyberPunk has the extra costs related to its next gen graphics
Good Old Games needs development time too, for example they have began converting all their titles to be guaranteed to work in windows 8.
Just maintaining a website indeed, you have all the gall to call me unaware of things. You didn't have a clue about the development cost of next gen graphics nor how much a game like this would cost and you called GoG "just maintaining a website" Please do some research before trying to call me out.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush,
Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light,
Company of Heroes II.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Well considering that my post didn't need "evidence" as anything I posted is either quite obvious or quite firmly laid out as speculation, obviously speculation has no "evidence". My post wasn't an essay or part of some coursework that needed cross referenced sources, just speculation about how one company can get a difficult project up and moving and CCP cant. You can others completely missed the point and it was well over your heads.
Do you need me to link evidence when I "asserted" games are challenging to develop? I thought that would be pretty obvious. Do I need to prove CCP own EVE have started WoD? Do I need to prove CD Projekt RED own GoG and are making CyberPunkl?
I thought it was pretty clear that this post was speculation. People didn't get it though, its not about CD Projekt RED its about CCP. I am using CD Projekt as a comparison thats all. Let me dumb it down, if one company get their shit together and get something done why cant another.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush,
Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light,
Company of Heroes II.
Thank you for clarifying, I can now answer.
No, CCP should not be ashamed because of the speculations of yourself.
"It's a sandbox, if you are not willing to create a castle then all you have is sand" - jtcgs
CCP has already gotten one MMO out the door, and is very close to releasing a second MMO on the console platform. Their third MMO has had development stall because of funding. Should their second game release and be successful, they will have no issues securing funding for their third MMORPG.
CD Projekt Red has had great success with a single player game, but have never produced an MMO. Whether they even get the MMO out the door remains to be seen. It also remains to be seen whether or not the game will attract an audience. They are as yet unproven in the MMO market.
Should CCP be ashamed because another developer is doing something? No.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I don't think that we can so easily say that the WoD project hasn't been going well. We don't know how it's been going.
There was some reprioritizing during the financial bottleneck when EVE players decided that a feature they'd requested in EVE since beta was some kind of betrayal to even think about. But there's been a lot of moving back to WoD since then, especially as DUST 514's development is coming to a close.
I think that if CCP has not ‘gotten its shit together’ in some regard, it's in that they failed to anticipate how schizophrenically volatile a huge part of their community would be in reaction to Incarna.
To answer your question, no, they should be very proud of themselves.
Playing: Darkfall Unholy Wars
Played: Darkfall, EVE, AoC, Ryzom, Ragnarok Online, GW2, PS2, Secret World, WOW, City Of Heroes/Villains, Champion Online.
Sorry to say, but i never seen a good mmorpg comes out from PnP, they all talked big, than stop at half way and change what the whole big want and not for the fans, losing what we liked in PnP version. (Warhammer, Neverwinter what is a Forgotten Realms D&D world...etc.)
I have no hope for a good WoD simply because they can't make it that way what WoD to be...
edit: nm
What Obi said.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
It was just an attempt at some speculative discussion about why CCP cannot get anywhere with WoD. Not a bloody college thesis. Jeez, lose some of the seriousness about how everything has evidence. You know this is a forum right? Where people post opinions?
Do you sit with a friend and demand they bring evidence to the discussion. Besides the info is out there, like the presentations on YouTube. They are easy enough to find, do you really need hand holding for that too?
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush,
Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light,
Company of Heroes II.
It's a simple principle, you made the statement, you provide the evidence for the statement, why would people search the Internet for information that only you say exists.
I have lost "the seriousness", I don't take what you say seriously.
"It's a sandbox, if you are not willing to create a castle then all you have is sand" - jtcgs
Honestly, whatever the reason for putting WoD on the back burner probably had to be a decent one.
CCP did a great job with EvE and they would do the same for WoD, not rush it.
Interesting. Before my edit, my comment was basically two things -
1) that it would help if you explained what information you are basing your stance on. Just asking you to share where you are getting that 'CCP cannot get anywhere' with the game. As far as I know, they are still working on it. As far as I know, they haven't shared how far along it is, but evidently you know so it's not unreasonable to ask where you are getting that.
2) several people have asked for more information in order to be able to discuss it with you and they have received defensive responses, snarky remarks and ad hominems.
Let's try again.
Hi, I'm Lok. You asked a question and made a statement that are both interesting
"So the question is why cant CCP, an experienced Dev create the game they have years to work on?"
"CCP cannot get anywhere with WoD"
This is something I hadn't heard before. Can you share with us your information on the development of World of Darkness. I haven't seen much out there and I was under the impression they were still working on it, although I don't know how far along they are. To answer the title, though: No, I don't feel CCP should be ashamed of themselves as they seem to be doing well with their existing title, releasing a second title, integrating those two, and working on the third title, as well.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Funniest thing I've read all week. Thanks!
/thread
I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil
It all comes down to money. The expended a bunch of it, and apparently had to back track because their players changed their minds.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I did not present a "statement" I posted some opinions, when someone tells you they like a particular brand of coffee do you demand they present evidence for that? Get off your high horse and drop the pseudo intellectualism and realize a forum like this is for presenting opinions. You have added nothing of value to the topic except to try and troll the opinion I posted.
All I was really trying to say is that if one small independent dev can turn a complicated PnP game into a game why cant CCP, not write a bloody thesis or hand hold people that cant be bothered to go find out any info themselves.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush,
Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light,
Company of Heroes II.
Once again I am not presenting a "statement" I voiced an opinion. In this case my opinion comes from me following CCP for 7 years. They bought White Wolf quite a while ago. I think the game is going nowhere based on the terribleness of the test bed for WoD and the way that if anything significant was happening with it we would never hear the end about it.
For both Dust and EVE are massively promoted, they are constantly making videos showing behind the scenes and every stage of development. Yet we see or hear absolutely nothing about World of Darkness.
My opinion that its not going well come from the way the test bed didn't work out so well and from a company thats constantly promoting their other two products have barely told us a single thing or shown no clips in all these years.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush,
Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light,
Company of Heroes II.
If someone tells me they like a brand of coffee I take their opinion as is, when someone tells me Nestlé are struggling to manufacture their coffee and that another company is beating them on coffee making efficiency I ask where they got that information.
"It's a sandbox, if you are not willing to create a castle then all you have is sand" - jtcgs
Seeing as I'm busy reading up for my exam, I did not read the 5 pages of comments. Sorry if the following has already been said.
A singleplayer game cannot be compared with an MMO. They're two very different beasts. Also, just because CD Projekt is promising all these things, you can't say that it'll happen. Look at Dungeons & Dragons Online; Just because the rules are there etc., they do not always translate well and are often either neclected or left alone because of the "complexity" of translating.
Besides this, having an open world is, apparently, hard. (I base this on the amount of both MMO- and SP-games without an open world). Then take into account stuff like decisions that matter to the game world. This is harder in an MMO (for obvious reasons), but apparently also hard in SP games (I base this on the amount of SP games where your actions don't matter).
Also, a lot of the stuff CCP have been doing with WOD (according to press releases, I think - or maybe just dev's speaking), a lot of the stuff they're doing wouldn't be possible a couple of years ago. They've also released a couple of videos showing off the graphics and physics of WOD (at least what they've done thus far, such as having a dress that correctly interacts with the surroundings; like sliding down the stairs). Their character editor is (or was, I havn't followed other character editors) first class, with the ability to pull various parts of the body to shape it (they've brought it to EVE; I assume because they wanted to test it on real people :P).
Granted, there's VERY little news on WOD's development. CCP are, and who can blame them, developing on their cash cow(s): EVE and DUST. But they are, last I heard (some press release, and/or devblog talking re: layoffs), still developing on WOD. But they want it to be the best it can be - and do not want to develop something that'll fail because it's too different from what people are expecting.
CD Projekt's Witcher franchise is.. Nice, I guess. I havn't played the games yet, but they're sitting in my backlog. However, having the privilige of being able to focus on one game is an advantage. They're also working on a singleplayer game, which, as I stated previously, is a different beast.
I do, however, think there are several reasons why there aren't more games out there like the Elderscrolls series. I believe it's hard. And that's why I also think CD Projekt may not know what they've gotten themselves into. But who knows. Maybe it'll turn out better than the D&D translations that have been. But even if it does come out before WOD, it proves nothing. Because they're so different.
Lastly, no. I do not think CCP should be ashamed of themselves. They have a bunch of good things, and a bunch of bad things. Hopefully the first outweigh the latter, but who knows? I'm wanting a WOD mmo as much as the next guy, but I don't want another WoW clone (or similar). I want a game that I can be proud of playing; something that has translated well. Something like the singleplayer games, but bigger and better. All of this is hard to do. And as such, no. They've got nothing to be ashamed of (or, rather, not in this case).
In summation. CD Projekt has taken on a beast of a challenge, but it's a SP game. Therefore, they cannot properly be compared (CD Projekt's project and WOD). It doesn't matter which game comes out first. As such, CCP shouldn't be ashamed.
FakeEdit: I would find some links, but, as stated in the top of this reply, I'm busy reading for my exam.
Real edit:
So they should be ashamed that they reacted to the outcry of their community, and decided to actually focus on their communitys game of choice? They should, perhaps, be ashamed that it took an outcry of that magnitude for them to focus on their released games (even though the community had been asking for ages).
Also, it takes resources to develop something; they don't have many. They took a managerial decision and focused on what people were screaming at them to focus on. It's too bad that it hit WOD development, but, alas, Newton's laws of motion also play into stuff such as this.
Real edit #2:
I'd love to see where you get all the information from, though. You know, the whole "next gen graphics", "detailed world", etc. Because, from where I'm sitting, that's more-or-less what every half-decent developer will promise their fanbase during the announcement/development of a game. Words and actions are, however, completely different things.
Follow my tweet (:
CCP hasn't been hiding anything from anyone. According to this article, they said they took on too much, and had to scale back. Eve and Dust are the priority items. WoD is still being worked on.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-06-08-world-of-darkness-mmo-in-active-development
It took them five years to develop Eve, and another three or four to really get going with the game. I don't see why WoD would be something they rush through, especially as a low priority item.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Eh, those 44 books are not all rules...
The core rules are explained in a single book. That book has a lot of lore in it aswell, in addition to item descriptions, examples etc.
The other 43 books MIGHT have one page worth of additions or revisions, but most of them are more lore, items etc.
That said, a multiplayer game is a vastly different animal than a singleplayer game. The latter is infinitely easier to produce, which is why they usually seem a lot more intricate. As a dev, you have a lot more freedom making a game when you only have one player to worry about, and his interaction with the game world. You can have the game change around just for the player, so to speak.
In a multiplayer game you have to design for interactions between both the game world AND the player - Depending on the amount of players you want involved it gets infinitely more complex to design properly. You can't really have the game change just for one player, it has to change for everyone. But how do you do this? Do you block swabs of content off because one single player did something specific? Do you leave everything as it is even though some groups of players have done different things to make change happen? How do you balance out skill levels and player abilities so that a small group of players can't game the system to make it impossible for the others to play?
So many more factors enter into designing a multiplayer game that it's not funny anymore - Especially RPG's where the interaction is not limited to 'point at something and shoot it'. Even in shooters it can be difficult to get it right.
And lastly, a singleplayer game doesn't 'need' the same amount of content as a multiplayer game. A SP game can be finished in a weekend, maybe a week of fulltime play, and people will be content, shelving it to maybe pull it out again after a year or two.
A multiplayer game has to be intersting to play for not just one weekend, but every weekend. This brings even MORE issues to the table compared to singleplayer games.
It's not even close to as easy as you make it out to be...
Playing: WF
Played: WoW, GW2, L2, WAR, AoC, DnL (2005), GW, LotRO, EQ2, TOR, CoH (RIP), STO, TSW, TERA, EVE, ESO, BDO
Tried: EQ, UO, AO, EnB, TCoS, Fury, Ryzom, EU, DDO, TR, RF, CO, Aion, VG, DN, Vindictus, AA