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Should CCP be ashamed of themselves?

GarkanGarkan BirminghamPosts: 552Member

Most EVE players know that CCP merged with White Wolf, White Wolf produced a well known and loved pen and paper RPG. CCP wanted to pick up the World of Darkness IP and make a game. It would be no exaggeration to say things have not gone so well for the project, years have passed and the test bed for it has been through its own set of problems and effectively put on the back burner. Apart from a few screens and a tasty looking trailer we have seen nothing to show us a game is anywhere near happening. 
 
Now CD Projekt RED, a small dev like CCP have announced they will be releasing their own RPG based on a PnP RPG, they are going all out and created a full team of some of their veteran devs to get the project moving. Its hard to say if CD Projekt RED have more resources than CCP, CD Projekt had an awesome success with the Witcher franchise and GoG is shaping up as a viable DRM free Steam alternative. Good Old Games is certainly not as big as Steam but its creating its own loyal fanbase bit by bit, think of Steam in 2007 and thats kinda where GoG is at. 
 
CCP have a constant income from EVE and had several multinational studios, but they fact they had financial problems is no secret and unfortunately they had to lay off a lot of staff. If I was to make a guess I would say CD Projekt had the fatter warchest. Still CCP have had year after year to get something done with World of Darkness, although an MMO and an RPG are different technically creating worlds as detailed as CD Projekt do is a whole heap of its own challenges. They are apples and oranges but both are as challenging in their own way. They are really going to push the boat out for this game too, with an amazingly detailed world and true next gen graphics. 
 
So CD Projekt Red will probably release CyberPunk 2077 long before CCP can release World of Darkness. So the question is why cant CCP, an experienced Dev create the game they have years to work on?

Currently playing:

EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)

Gravity Rush,
Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.

(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light,
Company of Heroes II.

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Comments

  • ObiClownobiObiClownobi CoruscantPosts: 186Member
    I think CCP have more cash than Cd project, I think CCP will release first, I base this on the same evidence you are using, the voices in my head.

    image
    "It's a sandbox, if you are not willing to create a castle then all you have is sand" - jtcgs

  • GarkanGarkan BirminghamPosts: 552Member
    Originally posted by ObiClownobi
    I think CCP have more cash than Cd project, I think CCP will release first, I base this on the same evidence you are using, the voices in my head.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=O03WLn8SzaE#t=14s

    Currently playing:

    EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)

    Gravity Rush,
    Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.

    (Waiting for) Metro: Last Light,
    Company of Heroes II.

  • sketocafesketocafe StoupaPosts: 803Member Uncommon
    CCP is making an MMO, CD Project is making a standalone RPG. So no.
  • nyxiumnyxium Posts: 1,222Member Uncommon
    Complicated, very complicated. After monocleGate things went downhill for CCP as they got caught with their pants down and lost a lot of subs. They had to throw everything at EVE and WoD lost out. I am a fan of WoD and hope it or something like WoD, is released soon, or at least an ETA is given.

    image
  • bcrankshawbcrankshaw JohannesburgPosts: 547Member
    Originally posted by sketocafe
    CCP is making an MMO, CD Project is making a standalone RPG. So no.

    This, I don't see the conflict in any area.

    They are catering for different groups of people.

    "after the time of dice came the day of mice "

  • GarkanGarkan BirminghamPosts: 552Member
    Originally posted by sketocafe
    CCP is making an MMO, CD Project is making a standalone RPG. So no.

    Derp, I covered that. Fact is the game CD Projekt are attempting is as complex and as challenging as creating an MMO. The challenges they face are different but both are difficult in there own way. 
     
    CD Projekt are creating RPG mechanics covering over 4700 pages in 44 books, in a game filled with huge detail and no set linear path. Its basically trying to create something as detail heavy and as free formed as Morrowind combined with one of Biowares better RPGs like DA:O. The game will also have true next gen graphics. This is not something thats easily done

    Currently playing:

    EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)

    Gravity Rush,
    Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.

    (Waiting for) Metro: Last Light,
    Company of Heroes II.

  • radeskradesk salvadorPosts: 11Member
    I don't know, just like WarZ, NeverWinter and TERA, they have all adv. take the whole time to build an awesome game but in the end, they release an beta/alpah product with 1000000000 bugs that they could've done way before but they didn't  because it was supposed to be perfect.
  • KroxMalonKroxMalon swindonPosts: 409Member

    No they should not be ashamed of themselves.

    Patients is a virtue many gamers dont seem to have.

    From a look of the WOD video and the scope of the world they plan to create, WOD will take some time.

  • Paradigm68Paradigm68 New York, NYPosts: 884Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Garkan
    Originally posted by sketocafe
    CCP is making an MMO, CD Project is making a standalone RPG. So no.

    Derp, I covered that. Fact is the game CD Projekt are attempting is as complex and as challenging as creating an MMO. The challenges they face are different but both are difficult in there own way. 
     
    CD Projekt are creating RPG mechanics covering over 4700 pages in 44 books, in a game filled with huge detail and no set linear path. Its basically trying to create something as detail heavy and as free formed as Morrowind combined with one of Biowares better RPGs like DA:O. The game will also have true next gen graphics. This is not something thats easily done

    How did you cover that? You can't compare a standalone game to an MMO in terms of complexity. Just because you list things that CD Projekt is doing doesn't in any way mean it is comparable to what CCP is doing.

  • MindTriggerMindTrigger La Quinta, CAPosts: 2,596Member

    I don't know about ashamed of themselves, because EVE is an amazing accomplishment, but I would love to see them do something more, including evolve EVE.

    I'm sure you've read their dev posts on EVE.  They want to expand it and keep it alive for a very, very long time.  Trouble is, it doesn't really seem to be going anywhere.  They can only expand on the current gameplay model so much without starting to add other branches of play such as WiS, planets, etc.

    I dont' play EVE only because the game that exists now with space flight only doesn't appeal to me, but I so want to join the EVE experience in general.

    As for WoD, I read they were talking about putting some information out at the end of 2012, which clearly didn't happen.  It would be nice at least to hear some kind of status update.

    A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  • MawneeMawnee Spring Hill, FLPosts: 197Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by KroxMalon

    ...

    Patients is a virtue many gamers dont seem to have.

    .....

     

    We cant all be doctors......

  • risenbonesrisenbones Galesburg, ILPosts: 194Member
    Nope because CCP have also just released another game called Dust 514 for the playstation.  Granted they have sat on the WoD IP for a fair while but they are doing things no-one else has tried.  Tied to that WoD i very different to what CCP have done in the past and when you look at what they have been adding to Eve and to a certain extent what they are doing with Dust it's all kind of laying some basic ground work for stuff they can use with WoD.  So while nothing looks like it's officially moving on WoD things like getting an avatar moving around captains quarters on a space station could be seen as experiance in avatar design and animation that could be put to use in WoD.

    The lesser of two evils is still evil.

    There is nothing more dangerous than a true believer.

  • bcrankshawbcrankshaw JohannesburgPosts: 547Member
    Originally posted by Garkan
    Originally posted by sketocafe
    CCP is making an MMO, CD Project is making a standalone RPG. So no.

    Derp, I covered that. Fact is the game CD Projekt are attempting is as complex and as challenging as creating an MMO. The challenges they face are different but both are difficult in there own way. 
     
    CD Projekt are creating RPG mechanics covering over 4700 pages in 44 books, in a game filled with huge detail and no set linear path. Its basically trying to create something as detail heavy and as free formed as Morrowind combined with one of Biowares better RPGs like DA:O. The game will also have true next gen graphics. This is not something thats easily done

    I don't get your point, it makes no sense

    Why would CCP be ashamed because another development company is making a complex single player RPG? Should they also be embarrassed because Bethesda made Skyrim and it was sold millions of copies?

    There is very little correlation technically around the development of how an MMO and a single player game is designed. So no, CCP shouldn't be ashamed

    "after the time of dice came the day of mice "

  • Cameron27Cameron27 Fort Collins, COPosts: 142Member
    I'm pretty sure they want to use the same graphics engine that they did for walking in stations, which turned out to be a giant resource hog that can't support multiple players in the same area. So until they solve this very important issue I don't think WoD is going anywhere. Once CCP releases pod pilot out of ship content, then I think people can start getting excited for WoD.

    "I will not play it nor any other MMO until they make it possible to obtain the best gear without forcing people to group up to do so." SwampRob

  • ObiClownobiObiClownobi CoruscantPosts: 186Member
    Originally posted by Garkan
    Originally posted by ObiClownobi
    I think CCP have more cash than Cd project, I think CCP will release first, I base this on the same evidence you are using, the voices in my head.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=O03WLn8SzaE#t=14s

    So no evidence then of your assertations?

    image
    "It's a sandbox, if you are not willing to create a castle then all you have is sand" - jtcgs

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,674Member Uncommon

    Can someone link me to the information on Cyberpunk 2077 that we are basing this all on? I couldn't find anything but a trailer and a couple of high level devblogs. I'm not saying CD won't make a great game. IMO, they've delivered solidly with both Witcher and Witcher 2, so I look forward to Cyberpunk 2077. I'm just lost as to what the OP is going on about as I haven't seen anything about the features, gameplay, release date, scope of game or .... well, anything at all.

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • GarkanGarkan BirminghamPosts: 552Member
    Originally posted by bcrankshaw
    Originally posted by Garkan
    Originally posted by sketocafe
    CCP is making an MMO, CD Project is making a standalone RPG. So no.

    Derp, I covered that. Fact is the game CD Projekt are attempting is as complex and as challenging as creating an MMO. The challenges they face are different but both are difficult in there own way. 
     
    CD Projekt are creating RPG mechanics covering over 4700 pages in 44 books, in a game filled with huge detail and no set linear path. Its basically trying to create something as detail heavy and as free formed as Morrowind combined with one of Biowares better RPGs like DA:O. The game will also have true next gen graphics. This is not something thats easily done

    I don't get your point, it makes no sense

    Why would CCP be ashamed because another development company is making a complex single player RPG? Should they also be embarrassed because Bethesda made Skyrim and it was sold millions of copies?

    There is very little correlation technically around the development of how an MMO and a single player game is designed. So no, CCP shouldn't be ashamed

    You are not getting it, you have two very similar products produced by two similar devs. 
     
    CCP are a small breakout dev that created something unique an provide an awesome service (EVE) 
     
    CD Projekt are a small breakout dev that created something unique and provide an awesome service (GoG) 
     
    Both have a loyal fanbase, both have announced that they will bring a pen and paper RPG to life by basing a game on it. The projects are different, very different in fact and are apples and oranges but both are very difficult and challenging apples and oranges.  
     
    So why cant CCP make some progress with theirs after all these years when CD Projekt will most likely get theirs out even though CCP have had years and years of a head start. Its not about CD Projekt Vs CCP its about highlighting CCPs inability to actually get somewhere with WoD.

    If one dev can take on converting a PnP into a game thats as challenging as creating an MMO why cant CCP do it. By the way for those not getting it, if you have two challenges say climbing a mountain and running a marathon they are very different. Both are difficult in their own way and have there own complications and difficulties to overcome. I  am not comparing the challenge they both face directly I am simply saying that the RPG CD Projekt are creating is no easier than creating an MMO.

    Currently playing:

    EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)

    Gravity Rush,
    Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.

    (Waiting for) Metro: Last Light,
    Company of Heroes II.

  • GarkanGarkan BirminghamPosts: 552Member
    Originally posted by ObiClownobi
    Originally posted by Garkan
    Originally posted by ObiClownobi
    I think CCP have more cash than Cd project, I think CCP will release first, I base this on the same evidence you are using, the voices in my head.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=O03WLn8SzaE#t=14s

    So no evidence then of your assertations?

    Good Sir, you seem a very perky sort and very energetic. I am sure that instead of adding absolutely nothing to the discussion you could take the time to find out the info yourself, after all self education is the best education.

    /tips hat

    -Damn monocle fell out-

    Currently playing:

    EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)

    Gravity Rush,
    Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.

    (Waiting for) Metro: Last Light,
    Company of Heroes II.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,674Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Garkan

    If one dev can take on converting a PnP into a game thats as challenging as creating an MMO why cant CCP do it. By the way for those not getting it, if you have two challenges say climbing a mountain and running a marathon they are very different. Both are difficult in their own way and have there own complications and difficulties to overcome. I  am not comparing the challenge they both face directly I am simply saying that the RPG CD Projekt are creating is no easier than creating an MMO.

    What are you basing this on, though? Can you link to pages on the scope of the two projects. There's very little on World of Darkness out and from what I read on the Cyberpunk 2077 site, they were still deciding which parts of the PnP to use and which parts to cut. I think some of us would be able to understand how you arrived at this seemingly odd conclusion if we saw what information this you used to reach it.

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • udonudon Durham, NCPosts: 1,768Member Uncommon
    CCP decided to focus on Dust rather than WOD and basicly put WOD on the backburner until Dust could be released.  I think WOD's ultimate fate largely depends on how dust goes.  In that regard I'm not hopeful we will ever see WOD personally.
  • adam_noxadam_nox hays, KSPosts: 2,036Member Uncommon
    EVE was more or less a lucky windfall for CCP, I don't think they understand how they made it into a cashcow, but they did, and people fall for it's BS year after year as they wait months sometimes just for one skill increase.  It's ridiculous, but a fool and his money...  So they are milking that as long as they can and hoping they can come up with a new success someday, but based on DUST they are clueless.
  • MindTriggerMindTrigger La Quinta, CAPosts: 2,596Member
    Originally posted by udon
    CCP decided to focus on Dust rather than WOD and basicly put WOD on the backburner until Dust could be released.  I think WOD's ultimate fate largely depends on how dust goes.  In that regard I'm not hopeful we will ever see WOD personally.

    Then you are basically asking for the end of this game.  CCP themselves has said on multiple occasions that they know the game has to evolve further in order to be viable long term and to bring in fresh people.  It's already suffering from a lot of stagnation, and stagnation will bring boredom and the eventual decline of the game.

    Dust was a ridiculous waste of time, and I don't know how they even began to dream it was going to matter.

    A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  • GarkanGarkan BirminghamPosts: 552Member
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Garkan

    If one dev can take on converting a PnP into a game thats as challenging as creating an MMO why cant CCP do it. By the way for those not getting it, if you have two challenges say climbing a mountain and running a marathon they are very different. Both are difficult in their own way and have there own complications and difficulties to overcome. I  am not comparing the challenge they both face directly I am simply saying that the RPG CD Projekt are creating is no easier than creating an MMO.

    What are you basing this on, though? Can you link to pages on the scope of the two projects. There's very little on World of Darkness out and from what I read on the Cyberpunk 2077 site, they were still deciding which parts of the PnP to use and which parts to cut. I think some of us would be able to understand how you arrived at this seemingly odd conclusion if we saw what information this you used to reach it.

     

    CD Projekt held a conference and discussed what they are attempting, the creator of the PnP attended too. Its not on odd conclusion when you think about it, creating any game is tough. Creating a next gen game with hugely detailed graphics is not easy. Writing enough story to fit a non linear world is not easy, getting detail into the characters is not easy. Creating game mechanics from a PnP with over four thousand pages in 44 books is hard, taking the bits you need and making them work in a live action game is fugging difficult. 
     
    Finally you have to nail it all together and create the game. Non of that is easy, CyberPunk is a pretty ambitious project. It is easily as ambitious as trying to turn a PnP into an MMO. Where CyberPunk differs from World of Darkness is that in WoD you have to get multiple players in and get them balanced, infrastructure for the game is one of the difficulties. CyberPunk needs to fit its mechanics together with a non linear story, its like blending  the world detail of Morrowind with Dragon Age Origins story and character development. Both are very ambitious and difficult in their own unique way, both devs will have a tough time getting it to work.

    Currently playing:

    EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)

    Gravity Rush,
    Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.

    (Waiting for) Metro: Last Light,
    Company of Heroes II.

  • RednecksithRednecksith Madison heights, MIPosts: 1,238Member
    Yes, because they'd rather spend limited resources on an OFPS which will be dead & meaningless in 6 months (if that) than put them toward something useful for either the EVE Online or WoD Online communities.
  • CursedseiCursedsei Clarkston, MIPosts: 1,012Member
    Originally posted by Garkan
    Originally posted by bcrankshaw
    Originally posted by Garkan
    Originally posted by sketocafe
    CCP is making an MMO, CD Project is making a standalone RPG. So no.

    Derp, I covered that. Fact is the game CD Projekt are attempting is as complex and as challenging as creating an MMO. The challenges they face are different but both are difficult in there own way. 
     
    CD Projekt are creating RPG mechanics covering over 4700 pages in 44 books, in a game filled with huge detail and no set linear path. Its basically trying to create something as detail heavy and as free formed as Morrowind combined with one of Biowares better RPGs like DA:O. The game will also have true next gen graphics. This is not something thats easily done

    I don't get your point, it makes no sense

    Why would CCP be ashamed because another development company is making a complex single player RPG? Should they also be embarrassed because Bethesda made Skyrim and it was sold millions of copies?

    There is very little correlation technically around the development of how an MMO and a single player game is designed. So no, CCP shouldn't be ashamed

    -snipping a bunch of useless stuff-

     

    What you don't get, is that CCP has to continually funnel money into EvE, their only real source of income. Remember Monoclegate? That cost them funds due to loss of players, and have been scrambling to implement more player-wanted mechanics and overhauls into EvE Online.

    Supporting servers, paying staff for development of new content as well as reworking what is there, it all costs money. Money that is also being used to fund Dust 514's development (Which as a F2P title means there is no guarantee of money from every player). At the time, their cash was split in three ways, EvE, Dust, and WoD.

     

    Considering one of those three titles weren't even in a showable state, when money-squeezing time came, they had to throw one title on the backburner, in order to support their money makers and thus make money.

     

     

    CD Projekt doesn't have that issue. At most, they pay for upkeep on a site, upkeep that is far less costly than an MMO, and doesn't require nearly as much support. They also aren't stuck constantly having to develop and update a game while trying to work on others. While there is no monthly source of income, overhead is also more than likely lower.

    And nowhere has it been stated at all that developing their Cyberpunk title is as costly or hard as an MMO, so you can drop that weak bit of an opinionated argument right there. There is only one title that the Projekt's dev team Red is working on, and thats the Cyberpunk game, with rumors of a 3rd Witcher title popping up.

    That's still 2 games compared to Eve's 3 (counting WoD of course).

     

    So no. CCP shouldn't be ashamed of themselves, because there is no bloody reason to. You though, should certainly feel ashamed for yourself due to your lack of insight into any of this, despite you listing off what I essentially just did, as well as an obvious lack of understanding on your part towards the studios and there positions.

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