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Do we really need races?

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  • ZairuZairu Portland, ORPosts: 469Member
    Originally posted by Lovely_Laly

    Seems it great fashion for latest game design to bring several races, more or less pretty or ugly.

    To be honest, I would prefer to have better designed factions for PvP or correct class balance.

    Even more classes will bring more fun then 5-6 races.

    Not sure what you guys thinking about, but I don't even know how to get hypo about small shhhh like gnome, dwarf etc to be your avatar. =XD

    May be we should have only 2 races: pretty and ugly? or even just one?

    I don't talk about NPC, I don't care what race they are.

     seriously? is this a real question?

     

    we have many races because the fantasy genre that MMORPGs derives from typically have fantasy worlds with a variety of races and creatures, many of which are taken from world folk-lore. 

    I won't play a MMO if I can't have pointed ears, plain and simple. i love elves because they are typically magical with interesting lore. i don't roll humans because its boring to me to RP one and I don't really care much for them in real life to begin with.

  • RednecksithRednecksith Madison heights, MIPosts: 1,238Member
    I like diverse races / species in my MMORPGs, and RPGs in general. If I wanted to roleplay a human, I'd just go outside.
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member

    Multiple races are not needed. One can have a MMO without multiple races. More races add flavor, background, lore, history, and many times conflict into a MMO, so I think multiple races are preferable.


    Originally posted by Quirhid
    There is no negative impact to PvP if the system is balanced, but usually it isn't. Infact, I can't remember a balanced PvP game with races...I'm not a fan of races if they funnel you into specific classes. It is effectively the same as restricting specific class choices to specific races only it gives more ways to gimp yourself. If Orc Warrior is the only good warrior, then only orcs should be warriors. If goblins make poor warriors, goblins shouldn't have that as an option.But I don't care about babysitting stupid players. Let them make their poor choices if they want to, however I do mind it when those same ignorant people claim this is "depth". More choices to gimp yourself is not depth no matter how you spin it.
    Depth...
    One path to take or many paths to take?

    Is every hero you read about or watch perfect? What do you base your character's perfection on? Does any of your characters have a flaw? One flaw that lends (OMG) depth to them?

    I know... Your character is just a bunch of pixels with numbers attached to them. The bigger the numbers, the better the character. Kind of like FPS games, no? Who cares if they have pointy ears or a smushed up nose, or short or tall? I realize your gaming style is more popular, but races do add depth to a game.

    Races add depth to character creation (new and non-human looks, inherent or special abilities, and possibly special affinities (like magic, smithing, bows).

    Races add depth to lore, like which race was created first or last? Is there an immortal type race? What races were created by what Gods?

    Races add depth to the world with racial cities, like tree towns, underground complexes, maybe even water villages.

    I suppose one could argue that one race could cover all of this, but they would have very little imagination. Imagination which is the foundation of fantasy MMORPGs.

    Also, no one asked you to "babysit" anybody. Kill them with your perfect cookie cutter character (exactly like every other perfect cookie cutter character you copied from a website) and laugh in their faces. I really see no depth what-so-ever in that. Everyone ends up playing the exact same thing.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • ZairuZairu Portland, ORPosts: 469Member
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    Multiple races are not needed. One can have a MMO without multiple races. More races add flavor, background, lore, history, and many times conflict into a MMO, so I think multiple races are preferable.

     


    Originally posted by Quirhid
    There is no negative impact to PvP if the system is balanced, but usually it isn't. Infact, I can't remember a balanced PvP game with races...

     

    I'm not a fan of races if they funnel you into specific classes. It is effectively the same as restricting specific class choices to specific races only it gives more ways to gimp yourself. If Orc Warrior is the only good warrior, then only orcs should be warriors. If goblins make poor warriors, goblins shouldn't have that as an option.

    But I don't care about babysitting stupid players. Let them make their poor choices if they want to, however I do mind it when those same ignorant people claim this is "depth". More choices to gimp yourself is not depth no matter how you spin it.

     


    Depth...
    One path to take or many paths to take?

     

    Is every hero you read about or watch perfect? What do you base your character's perfection on? Does any of your characters have a flaw? One flaw that lends (OMG) depth to them?

    I know... Your character is just a bunch of pixels with numbers attached to them. The bigger the numbers, the better the character. Kind of like FPS games, no? Who cares if they have pointy ears or a smushed up nose, or short or tall? I realize your gaming style is more popular, but races do add depth to a game.

    Races add depth to character creation (new and non-human looks, inherent or special abilities, and possibly special affinities (like magic, smithing, bows).

    Races add depth to lore, like which race was created first or last? Is there an immortal type race? What races were created by what Gods?

    Races add depth to the world with racial cities, like tree towns, underground complexes, maybe even water villages.

    I suppose one could argue that one race could cover all of this, but they would have very little imagination. Imagination which is the foundation of fantasy MMORPGs.

    Also, no one asked you to "babysit" anybody. Kill them with your perfect cookie cutter character (exactly like every other perfect cookie cutter character you copied from a website) and laugh in their faces. I really see no depth what-so-ever in that. Everyone ends up playing the exact same thing.

     

    a much better answer than mine, but of course, i'm just trolling.

  • NorseGodNorseGod Behind Enemy Lines, FLPosts: 856Member

    Well, in the beginning i wanted just make fun of you for bringing up biology here.

    But reading wikipedia is fun and in this case was slighly enlightening.

    So now i hold the belief that your insistence on using biology terminology is misplaced, we are not talking about things that posess DNA.

    We are talking about race in the context of rpg games, and most people will understand it for what it really means here, a more fundamental characteristic of a character (playable or not) that most often manifests itself in the cosmetic or appearance area, but may also influence other aspects, like availability of classes, gear restrictions and bonuses/penalties of all kinds.

    There i see the difference between "character race" and you mentioning the use of the word "hacker" to label cheaters to make news stories more sensational.

    Flame on!

    :)

    Wiki is convenient. However, not a credible source to facts. Anyone can contribute to Wiki, and it is also heavily moderated. By who? Who's side are they on and why? No university professor accepts Wiki as a source because of this. Not trying to lecture you, just point this out. So just be careful.

    Anyways, in my defense, my thoughts on the matter go well beyond biology. Due to the RoC, I cannot freely express my thoughts in regards to the use of the word "race" incorrectly replacing the word "species" . Such as the purpose or intent, for example. I just limited myself to pointing out the fact that the use of the word "race" and "species" is technically incorrect from scientific fact. Not an PhD level of understanding, but a fact that is commonly learned in the most basic biology curriculum.

    No big deal, due to it pertaining to video games. I know. We both discussed our views on importance and unimportance. But the truth be told, when I read the title, I thought the OP was asking for something else.

    Censorship is intended to create an illusion that one side of the debate is correct and unopposed. Silence is not consent.

  • corpusccorpusc Chattanooga, TNPosts: 1,330Member
    Originally posted by Caliburn101

    I would argue no - many very good fantasy and scifi stories have only human 'player' characters.

    The extra effort that goes into resizing and refitting gear for the various races in a normal game could instead go into creating more variety of gear - cultural etc. variance which would enrich the game just as much.

    Just my two-pence on the subject, and a very subjective subject it is...

     

    truth

    The End
    ---------------------------
    i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

  • madazzmadazz A town, ONPosts: 1,564Member Uncommon
    A game can be great with only one race (Original UO). I do like having multiple races, but I don't think it would bother me in the slightest if there was only one available in a GREAT game.
  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    Multiple races are not needed. One can have a MMO without multiple races. More races add flavor, background, lore, history, and many times conflict into a MMO, so I think multiple races are preferable.

     


    Originally posted by Quirhid
    There is no negative impact to PvP if the system is balanced, but usually it isn't. Infact, I can't remember a balanced PvP game with races...

     

    I'm not a fan of races if they funnel you into specific classes. It is effectively the same as restricting specific class choices to specific races only it gives more ways to gimp yourself. If Orc Warrior is the only good warrior, then only orcs should be warriors. If goblins make poor warriors, goblins shouldn't have that as an option.

    But I don't care about babysitting stupid players. Let them make their poor choices if they want to, however I do mind it when those same ignorant people claim this is "depth". More choices to gimp yourself is not depth no matter how you spin it.


    Depth...
    One path to take or many paths to take?

     

    Is every hero you read about or watch perfect? What do you base your character's perfection on? Does any of your characters have a flaw? One flaw that lends (OMG) depth to them?

    I know... Your character is just a bunch of pixels with numbers attached to them. The bigger the numbers, the better the character. Kind of like FPS games, no? Who cares if they have pointy ears or a smushed up nose, or short or tall? I realize your gaming style is more popular, but races do add depth to a game.

    Races add depth to character creation (new and non-human looks, inherent or special abilities, and possibly special affinities (like magic, smithing, bows).

    Races add depth to lore, like which race was created first or last? Is there an immortal type race? What races were created by what Gods?

    Races add depth to the world with racial cities, like tree towns, underground complexes, maybe even water villages.

    I suppose one could argue that one race could cover all of this, but they would have very little imagination. Imagination which is the foundation of fantasy MMORPGs.

    Also, no one asked you to "babysit" anybody. Kill them with your perfect cookie cutter character (exactly like every other perfect cookie cutter character you copied from a website) and laugh in their faces. I really see no depth what-so-ever in that. Everyone ends up playing the exact same thing.

    What I wrote went completely over your head, didn't it? You sure proved that with your last paragraph. If everyone ends up playing the same build, because it is the only good one, then the game is shallow. You gimp yourself all you want, but again, don't claim its depth.

    Which one would you choose:

    • Shoot yourself in the hand
    • Shoot yourself in the foot
    • Shoot yourself in the head
    • Don't shoot yourself
    There is no depth when only one of the choices is good!

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • BanaghranBanaghran HuisoPosts: 869Member
    Originally posted by NorseGod

    Anyways, in my defense, my thoughts on the matter go well beyond biology. Due to the RoC, I cannot freely express my thoughts in regards to the use of the word "race" incorrectly replacing the word "species" . Such as the purpose or intent, for example. I just limited myself to pointing out the fact that the use of the word "race" and "species" is technically incorrect from scientific fact. Not an PhD level of understanding, but a fact that is commonly learned in the most basic biology curriculum.

     

    Then i think your thought process is not deep enough, because imo almost everything that is beeing discussed here and what happens and is done in and to these games goes into a completely opposite direction as that what you are hinting at.

    Scientific fact is based on proof and experimentation and stuff like that, proving and demonstrating that a fictional character is of a different species as an other fictional character could be quite difficult, especially if the author says that they can produce hybrids...

    Flame on!

    :)

  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHPosts: 3,066Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Grunty

    And just which race should all avatars be? How restrictive should that race's individual appearance be? Should they all be one gender? One color?  One height? One age? One weight?

    How boring do you want avatars to be?

     

    Asherons Cal had 3 races at release, all Humans (Asian, British & Middle Eastern) and all races were the same size but it was the cosmetics and armor you worse that differentiated you.  Instead of having 20 races and 7-8 armor skins at endgame you had 3 races and about 14 milltion armor/appearance combinations.  So which type has the greater variety?  AC!

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,751Member Uncommon

    Gaming studios think we like races in MMO’s, practically fantasy ones, so they are here to stay. I like them myself and I don’t think they take away from other aspects of the game. Less human models for more other race models. Less human lore for more other race lore. I don’t see this as a sinkhole for devs time, if they are not detailing other races they would have more on humans.

  • IsawaIsawa Middle 0 Nowhere, ORPosts: 1,051Member
    SWG was great for races. Star Wars with actual Races, sorry SWTOR = FAIL.
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,633Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Lovely_Laly

    Seems it great fashion for latest game design to bring several races, more or less pretty or ugly.

    Was there a time when MMOs didn't have a diverse set of races? Is there something in particular about the latest game design of races that you dislike?

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,633Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by azzamasin

    Asherons Cal had 3 races at release, all Humans (Asian, British & Middle Eastern) and all races were the same size but it was the cosmetics and armor you worse that differentiated you.  Instead of having 20 races and 7-8 armor skins at endgame you had 3 races and about 14 milltion armor/appearance combinations.  So which type has the greater variety?  AC!

    Good point. AC's gear diversity was the result of an extensive dying system and dynamic loot. By keeping the races similar in side but diverse in minor appearances it allowed the player far greater customization, diversity and choice in other selections.

    More races would have meant either just different skin hues on the same models (boring) or different character models, which would have impacted the ability to churn out cool, customizable gear.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • NL-RikkertNL-Rikkert schagenPosts: 121Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by kadepsyson
    Originally posted by NL-Rikkert
    Go play Guild Wars 1.. PROBLEM SOLVED, THREAD CLOSED!

    Not really an MMO

    Had to say it :P

    Wow really? Was expecting a reply, but not this stoopid.. 

    Last time I checked having a few thousand players in an online game environment communicating with eachother, that was still called a MMO.. 

     

    But please do be so kind to "enlighten" us with your endless wisdom on the definition of a MMO..?

    STOOPID
    When someone does something so utterly moronic that it kills your brain cells at the very thought of it.

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,965Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by NL-Rikkert

    Originally posted by kadepsyson
    Originally posted by NL-Rikkert
    Go play Guild Wars 1.. PROBLEM SOLVED, THREAD CLOSED!

    Not really an MMO

    Had to say it :P

    Wow really? Was expecting a reply, but not this stoopid.. 

    Last time I checked having a few thousand players in an online game environment communicating with eachother, that was still called a MMO.. 

     

    But please do be so kind to "enlighten" us with your endless wisdom on the definition of a MMO..?

     

    Cooperative online role playing game is how ANET described GW1 themselves actually, go look it up.

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • bizoux86bizoux86 Bangor, PAPosts: 85Member

    I love having lots of races to choose from in games. I can't stand it when a game has severely limited options for races, usually if the game only offers 1 or 2 races they are so human-like that I don't even want to play! I want to play fantasy games where there are a vast amount of differences among the avatars, I don't want to play a clone of what everyone else is playing - how boring.

     

  • madazzmadazz A town, ONPosts: 1,564Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by NL-Rikkert
    Originally posted by kadepsyson
    Originally posted by NL-Rikkert
    Go play Guild Wars 1.. PROBLEM SOLVED, THREAD CLOSED!

    Not really an MMO

    Had to say it :P

    Wow really? Was expecting a reply, but not this stoopid.. 

    Last time I checked having a few thousand players in an online game environment communicating with eachother, that was still called a MMO.. 

     

    But please do be so kind to "enlighten" us with your endless wisdom on the definition of a MMO..?

    There is a difference between a chatroom and a game world.

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,451Member Uncommon

    We need races if it makes sense in the world to have races.

    Just throwing in a slime man, bug man, cat man, elf man, etc. isn't going to work if it seems incongrous to the world.

     

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by NL-Rikkert
    Originally posted by kadepsyson
    Originally posted by NL-Rikkert
    Go play Guild Wars 1.. PROBLEM SOLVED, THREAD CLOSED!

    Not really an MMO

    Had to say it :P

    Wow really? Was expecting a reply, but not this stoopid.. 

    Last time I checked having a few thousand players in an online game environment communicating with eachother, that was still called a MMO.. 

     

    But please do be so kind to "enlighten" us with your endless wisdom on the definition of a MMO..?

    Don't reply to that. They're just trolling you.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by Quirhid
    You gimp yourself all you want, but again, don't claim its depth.Which one would you choose:
    Shoot yourself in the handShoot yourself in the footShoot yourself in the headDon't shoot yourself
    There is no depth when only one of the choices is good!

    Again, I ask what you decided was not worthy of a response:
    Does a character with a flaw or two have more depth than a perfect character, or not?

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • Lovely_LalyLovely_Laly genevaPosts: 734Member

    LoTRO sure does need races, it comes out of it's origin. Here we don't even need to discuss.

    GW1 worked very well with humans, although game is outdated by now in term of character customization,
    which I see to be really deep for good game. I'm pretty much agree with people who wants less races but more custom options, so do I.
    race don't need to be human or even dwarf, not sure about you, but I'm sorta bored of same menu at most of fantasy games. Si-Fi has own reasons, so they need more races IMO.

    why not make 2 races without prof restrictions and with balanced race ability (like one can regen HP but 2nd take way less damage, just an example).

    and why not elf (seems all like them) and banshee (only saw as NPC so far); lets devs create deep lore and large home worlds for both; lets them to be different to the point not to see they are all same, but keep distance between races.
    Sure we can make 4 races (for more options), but it will, IMO, eat time could be used to make better starter areas etc.

    Factions can be good or bad, all against all may work as good as PvP (some games use it, I'm not fun of PvP, but found arena at Atlantica fun).

    I asked what you guys thinking as lately I don't really see deep race design, more some appearance and sometime not even that much difference.
    So I though devs doing just cosmetic races to get us interested about.
    As they fail to offer deep race interpretation, IMO again, I vote for less races but better work.

    Thanks all for answers, even trolls were lovely! =

    try before buy, even if it's a game to avoid bad surprises.
    Worst surprises for me: Aion, GW2

  • MadDemon64MadDemon64 Maplewood, NJPosts: 1,098Member Uncommon

    I honestly prefer when multiple races are in a game and I get to play as any (or at least most) of them.  I have lived my entire life as a human; why not take the opportunity to not be human when given the chance?

    Since when is Tuesday a direction?

  • loulakiloulaki PatrasPosts: 918Member

    TSW and EVE dont have races but factions  ^^

     

    i play GW2 and they only reason i made human (alt ) is for the female thief cultural armor of tier 3 ...

    image

  • obiiobii WienPosts: 779Member Uncommon

    Races or skins?

    UO showed that it is fine without races and if different races have different stats the min/max gaming is annoying.

    Allowing players to have different skins though, even monster skins  - why not.

     

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