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Roles/classes and Endgame
Maelzrael
Member UncommonPosts: 405
I'm finding after roughly 6 months of play that roles are important to mmo's. The reason is that roles make you feel important. I love my necromancer and my mesmer to death.. but there is no need for them in a group. Sure mesmers have time warp, and necros can do some serious condition damage(amoung other talents for each class).. but without roles.. or the need for them.. It kinda seems like theres no reason to be one class over another. They can all perform all roles.. and theres no content that requires any specific class/role to complete.
I think Gw2 is an amazing game.. i think the idea that any class can perform any of the Gw2 roles is great. But i think some changes need to happen to make the game truely epic.
1. Raids: we need a reason to get full exotics.. we need a reason to need all the classes/roles to be filled.
2. Roles: we need more clearly defineable roles in order to make building a build to suite that role meaningful. I am not saying we need the trinity, im saying we need a reason to be a control mesmer or a condition necro, a reason to be a *tank-esk* warrior or a support gaurdian.
Sum: We need more endgame options/progression, and we need the class and build you choose to matter more.
Side note: At level 80 all areas of the game should offer roughly the same rewards as the dungeons.. currently only dungeons grant enough money to be worth doing, exploring/de's and other game content dont offer much of a reward to speak of and therefore feel sorta pointless save the experience of seeing it all. I hope Arenanet sees all this as well and makes a move towards adding more complexity to the game and evening things out.. Practicing more of what they preached while making being a level 80 with full exotics worth something other then "im cool look at me".
Thats it thanks for reading if you did. Comment and post.. but dont troll, thats rude.
Comments
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.
I have reccomended in another thread the creation of a huge open pve map that acts like a giant dungeon. Mechanics (such as rockslides, catapults, etc) to take out zergs can be used. The map will basically be a introduction to primordius, an ed. The objective is to keep going farther into the ground, where puzzles, traps, fights, etc commence. Farther and farther you go, the harder it gets. Zergs will contsnatly be formed and destroyed, only the strongest survive. Ancient towns and cities from asuran underground times will be present.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/innovation
TSW suffered from the same type of thing, but on the PvP end. What I learned is that the content dictates the needs for roles. Since there was only one type of pvp everyone played the same type role, and the more creative builds suffered due to the constraints of the content.
This is the samething with GW2 pve more or less.
@ Eyelollled, I played Rift for two months when it launched, Rift has horrible character models and animations and being the vain person I am, makes it unplayable. I do like their classes though.
@ King, That sounds like a really nice idea. Only issue is arenanet would need to makes the rewards for participation better then the current rewards for grinding Fotm and the other dungeons.
@ Bcbully, Agreed. The difference is i think Guild wars two has the most fun combat, controls, setup, art style, and bassline engine of any themepark mmo out there right now, and therefore the potential to drastically improve, whereas i think TSW is kinda on a lower level then Gw2(though i own it as well since it went BTP) and dont think it can really be improved to a state i would enjoy becuase of the controls, combat, setup, art style and bassline engine.
I think TSW has one of the best mmo engines to date. I'm constantly amazed how well that game runs and looks on my PC.
but on GW2 please don't bring your roles into that game. Can we please have one MMO with no roles?! I don't wanna get yelled at for not being the right class or spec. TSW should have ditched the trinity too in my opinion.
Nah TSW uses the trinity differently. There are some fights where you dont actually use it. For example Facility Boss 1 requires no tank or heals just straight DPS. and if your going in at its recommended QL then you will need 5 DPS for the fight. Or Klein in Ankh at NM level unless your group is all 10.4 your gonna need a second healer or everyone running Reap and Sow to survive the battle.
Trinity isn't a bad thing. the only time its bad is if its used the same way for every fight.
Because i can.
I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
Logic every gamers worst enemy.
Condition necro, tenky warrior and support guardian are all good and viable end-game builds. I don't know about control mesmer, they don't have many good CC skills. Anyway, am I wrong or do you want the devs to force you into using certain roles? Why? Right now, I can bring my warrior (axe/shield + longbow with lots of boon-spreading as the main build, essentially durable support with decent DPS) into a dungeon and be as helpful as I would be with an all-out HB DPS build. That's a good thing, isn't it?
There is nothing worse when you want to do something with some friends but none of them play a role that is needed so you need to take someone else instead of one of your friends or someone needs to play a role they don't like.
Not having hard roles or hard needs for a profession mean anyone can play what they want.
Now the opposite is that if you only play with random strangers. Being a rare played class that is needed for something will certainly make you feel especially but at the cost of making everyone feel like crap.
Also there is something I don't understand.
For those people that feel the need for hard roles to differentiate and feel special what is the difference between a DK tank, a Paladin Tank, a Warrior Tank, a Panda Tank or a Druid Tank.?
A tank is a tank.
A DPS is a DPS.
A healer is a healer..
Their classes are secondary most of the time.
It seems to me that all these complaints come from players that play Tanks or Healers in other games and because they play a less popular role they are treated in a special way and now they aren't because any profession can be replaced by another profession.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
I can think of something worse: Not having your friends play the game with you at all because they actually enjoy fullfilling certain roles, and so passed on the game.
GW2 is great for DPS people, though.
You make me like charity
GW2 is also great for support people, CC people, off-tank people and debuff people. The only roles that aren't available are pure healer and pure tank.
For example, my mesmer is utter crap DPS wise compared to a well-built DPS character like a HB warrior, but is still very useful in dungeons because of mesmer's great utility skills and buffs.
You can see what builds you have available by looking at your weapon skills, traits and utility skills. You have to find it yourself. All classes can absorb damage, cause damage and support with heals and buffs.
GW2 does'nt need raids, right now ArenaNet need to strenghten the current game they have and that's what they are doing with the january, february and march updates. It includes revamps to dungeons and new features to PvE,WvWvW and PvP, and new DEs to all zones in the game and more. Looking forward to it!
Yeah i could see a mesmer in a dungeon getting his clones 1 shotted as you spawn them, have to be fixed.
It's actually not a big problem in dungeons. Bosses 1 shot illusions, but you just have to adapt and use ranged illusions. Some of your Toughness and Vitality goes to your illusions, so maybe mine are a bit more durable than usual because I'm wearing Knight's and Valkyrie's. Overall, I think mesmers are great in dungeons. It's just that their practical DPS potential isn't as high as that of some other classes.
High-pop DEs are where illusions are worthless.
I know what the op means to say. More than once I thought: "I miss the times when I would play as dedicated healer."
However..
When I play as Necro now I just adapt my skills to suit the party. When I got into dungeons I always pick Well of Blood for aoe healing and when we are overrun by mobs I turn on Plague for 20 seconds of blindness tanking through Plage of Darkness, which makes an incredible difference. By default I use Signet of Death to get my party members out of the downed state quickly. Alternatively I use Signet of the Plague to cure them from conditions.
It's still possible to play as healer.. it's just no longer possible to spam heals all the time.
Why do you want the game to force you into using cool abilities? If they're cool, just use them. Most of them are quite useful. Classes do have unique abilities. For example, mesmers have portals, warriors have banners, guardians have Aegis, eles have auras, thieves have shadowsteps and stealth, etc.
As for combo fields, they make the game much easier when used well. There are many builds that focus on AoE might stacking, for example.
I have to disagree with the need for clearly defined roles. What's needed is for people to actually understand the skills and how and when to use them. Mesmers, for example, are great for all areas of damage, control and support, but only if you "do it right"... that is use your skills to get the right effects at the right time. You're not going to spam focus 4 off cooldown, for example, you're going to use it to, based on circumstances:
1. Give allies a needed speed boost.
2. Apply cripples to foes, allowing yourself or allies to gain distance
3. Pull foes towards you or party members
4. Pull foes away from you or party members
5. (PvP) Throw foes off cliffs for the giggly fun of it.
You have so much versatility in GW2... unlike games with set roles, rotations, etc. It's a relearning experience, but once you really get the feel for it combat begins to flow. Every profession has a lot to offer in all aspects of the game, and even more when you work together with others. A warrior stomp in a mesmer field that makes allies in the area go invisible? A thing of beauty. Maybe I put up a field to remove conditions from allies and they use that field to stack confusion on the enemy... aw yeah.
Stop trying to force yourself into a role. Instead, learn to see the fight going on around you and situationally react.
Oderint, dum metuant.
Volkon is awesome. Anytime GW2 is in danger, he swoops right in to save the day! And he has the fastest home internet connection I've ever seen.
You make me blush.
Oderint, dum metuant.
First GW2 hasnt been out 6 months - been out since September 24, 2012. I don't count the beta test times, either.
1. We don't need raids - if you want GW2 to be JUST like Rift, WoW, etc then fine - I prefer NOT to have them and am grateful GW2 doesn't.
2. Roles - like the trinity? - Then it would be just a clone.
Basically what you want is nother WoW clone - play WoW and be don e with it.
Oh you mean certain skills giving you a huge advantage in a certain situation?
Hmm, out of my head I would say Mesmer in the swamp fractals gives you a huge benefit. Mesmer creates a portal in the middle of the map. Everyone grabs the wisps and runs to the portal - map clearance within seconds.
Um what? Mesmers are the kings of CC.
They've got iZerker and iWave, Magic Bullet, iLeap -> Swap, Counter Blade, Temporal Curtain -> Into the Void, Mantra of Distraction, Chaos Storm and Diversion. GS skills are great for crowd control, Magic Bullet is alright and Temporal Curtain is fantastic, but other than that... Counter Blade and Diversion are too short for PvE, iLeap misses half of the time, Chaos Storm is random and MoD is a Mantra.
Compared to the CC other classes can pull off, that's not a great list. A Warrior can get four superb CC skills from Hammer alone. Of course, Mesmer has some CC traits, too, but they don't change the big picture IMO.
Oh, there's more than that. Crippling Dissipation, for example... clones apply cripple when killed. That's an AoE cripple by the way... you can keep a group hobbling around quite nicely. Combine that with traiting to create a clone when you dodge and you have a mass degree of crippling goodness. A well timed Feedback can work in situations. Confusion is a form of CC which can limit attacks or damage those that fail to accept those limits. Invisibilities break a target on you and allies and can keep the enemy from knowing where to go in the first place. The Desperate Decoy trait gives the enemy a false target... CC isn't simply restricting their movement but controlling where they may go as well by leading them in the wrong direction.
Mesmer focus 4 is a tremendous CC skill used tactically. You can speed up allies, cripple foes, pull foes towards you, pull them away from you...
Mesmers don't lack in any way, shape or form when it comes to CC. We're masters at it. A warrior may have four great CC skills on the hammer, but if he can't get close enough to you to hit you, or if he's swinging at false targets...
Oderint, dum metuant.
Let me say that i agree with everything you're saying, what my problem is, is that there is no content that makes it a nessessity to have a mesmer with this ability. Combo fields are amazing, chaos storm is my absolute favorite mesmer skill and the reason I run a staff build most of the time, however i find that there is no reason for me to do so other then the fact that i enjoy it. Nobody appreciates all the support skills im useing. Nobody needs my portal, and when i use it, say on CoF path 1 to get past the fire boulders, nobody cares. In *some* other games, you have to come up with all kinds of tactical uses for the skills of all the classes in the game, and you need one of every class in your group to complete certain areas. I'm really not trying to change what Gw2 has, as some people seem to interrpret this post, I want them to add to it. The big "raid" type content, such as the shatterer fight, are just zerg fests. That boss dies in less then 2 minutes 90% of the time, and the rewards are bleh. We need a reason kill him, and the challenge should meet the reward..
Give me a good reason to have my mesmer blink behind the boss at that key moment an drop a portal allowing a vast majority of players to get to safety(for example).
Perhaps its not that each class doesnt have the skills, or "matter". Perhaps its that there is no content that requires us to get on vent and come up with a killer strategy to complete it.