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Taking concerns about usual game mechanics

SlechtvalkSlechtvalk Member Posts: 33
in Neverwinter

Good Morning,

 

at first, i played 1st and 2nd edition pnp. I am not firm with 4th edition. I was thinking about some mechanics, and i want to know if they would be possible with the rules of 4th edition.

 

Its not that i need them, i am taking concerns about all that kiddies and ppl. who shit about rules and lore comform games.

 

We know 4 classes by video now. In my eyes (yes correct me if i am wrong) a tank class and 3 damagedealer. I am not sure if i understood all right. The old editions know healers, but tanking, well i had session where my old mage took aggro on a dragon, well oops and my own fault.

so is this game designed as trinity, or are all classes almost good damagedealer, with the plus for tanks having aggro management and clerics some heals?

the second with this, if not, if its an old designed trinity, i can suddenly hear the normal folks cry "we want dual class" not in the way it was meant in former 2nd edition. the wow, rift, and other style, beeing able to change between a dd / healer / tanking role.

I am taking concern about this, because in my eyes this would give us the old problem as in any other game, almost no one wants to tank, and playing a healer to top level means beeing less fast. so this would be good for the player.

 

its not that I need that, but i fear the cries of the mass, and a producer who changes the mechanic to somewhat which could be just a normal mmo, and not D&D? i mean, this game is special to me, because its D&D. on the other side, I wouldnt like it, when its a normal mmo with just a "D&D label" in its loading screen.

 

so, what will it be, taking the rules and mechanics of 4th edition pen & paper, or a more weakened ruleset?

 

What you think about that, hopefully you understood my thought, english is not my mothertongue, sorry! but learning never ends.

Comments

  • dzoni87dzoni87 Member Posts: 541

    Hello,

      First thing to clarify if you havent read or played 4ed ruleset yet: combat is made around more simple mechanics called "Powers". Now literally, each and every class have them and they are separated into three categories: at-will, encounter and daily powers. To many older DnD players, this mechanic was very similar to MMORPG combat mechanics, moreso than PnP (which recieved a widely negative backlash and, according to some, was worst change implemented in one edition of DnD ever). To summarize it: combat in 4ed is more simplified and made more 'hack and slash'.

      Now my point is: i can see it implemented very well in Neverwinter. However, combat in NW is somewhat different than in standard MMOs. It is not a standard button masher, you need to aim to hit someone (hope this will actually work, unlike in TERA) you need to watch out for 'flanking' positions etc. But, it can work pretty good for 4ed's combat and for what it is.

      And as for classes they are releasing: they are made out of pre-set builds from 4ed (control wizard, trickster rogue etc. to name a few). So far, the class that is most close to healer, that can come to my mind could be "Protection Paladin" if he will be released at all. This all being said, the fact is - 4ed, no matter how good or bad it is, doesnt have trinity mechanics in combat. It is still, even simplified, the same combat system that was present in earlier editions.

      Bottom line: so far from gameplay videos etc. it seems that combat can work very well without 'trinity', but will it be present in some stage of the game, remains to be seen. And, once again, combat works pretty well with 4ed, despite that edition seems to be a bit weaker DnD edition.

      As for me, i like DnD, no matter what edition, so i will probably be fine with NW.

    Main MMO at the moment: Guild Wars 2
    Waiting for: Pathfinder Online

  • SwampRobSwampRob Member UncommonPosts: 1,003

    Nice post, Dzoni.

    As a longtime D&D player (since mid 70s), I think your post is spot on.   The main detractor for me, when it comes to D&D video games, is realtime vs turn-based.   No part of the pen and paper game requires twitch mechanics, hand-eye coordination, etc.  For me, any D&D video game needs to be turn-based otherwise it is, at best, D&D-like.   

    I can accept the DM-less environment, even though it reduces the D&D game to almost exclusively combat.   I can accept that certain powers will never make it into the game (Wish spell), but I can't stand the thought of dying because I didn't push a button fast enough.   That is just so very much NOT D&D.

    Some of the virtual tables I've played D&D on far more accurately represent and reproduce the game better than NW or DDO.   But if some devs ever came out with a NW-like version that was turn-based, I'd be sending the my cash regularly.    Something similar to games like Baldur's Gate but multiplayer with modern graphics.   Add in the ability for player-created content and I'll never need any other Fantasy game.

     

     

  • Ambros123Ambros123 Member Posts: 877

    There will be some tanking mechanics involved.  How aggro is handled is unknown.  A demo showed a guardian fighter holding the attention of the ogre while the rogue attacked from behind for additional dmg.  The four confirmed classes are fighter, rogue, cleric, and wizard.  Many speculate that ranger will be there also at launch but it there was some issues that Cryptic needed to work out with the class and they took it off the confirmed list.  However they have said that there will be much more classes at lauch so I'm guessing we'll see a lot more classes.  In a demo Andy commented that players will need to avoid dmg, hence the shit key evasion skill.  I'm guessing that we might see similar mechanics like in GW2 with avoiding dmg.  Cleric hasn't been shown off and they are working on healing in the game so we have not ideal yet how healing will work.  However healing surges was tried but they took that mechanic out.

    There is no dual classing 4e in the traditional sense like in 3.5e.  You from my uinderstanding feat for multiclassing abilities and pretty much you gain a power.

    With power swapping I don't think being stuck in a "slow leveling" will be much of an issue.  This was addressed long ago in WoW with dual specs and pretty much all MMOs followed suit.  Question is whether or not one can swap out specialties of their class (i.e. guardian and great weapon fighter).

    Keep in mind this is a 4e D&D INSPIRED game, this is an MMO first and foremost so there will be some major deviations and fans will not be pleased.  Look at DDO, they tried to translate the rules to an MMO but butchured that and eventually just gave up.  Feats don't even resembles what's in the rulebooks, putting PrCs into PrEs (talent points pretty much for a class), Epic Destinies where players are doing 100s or 1000s points of dmg, ect ect the list can go on and on.

    It will be a weakened ruleset as dmg and armor are completely different, you have stats on gear that you normally see in MMOs (assuming this isn't the case in PnP 4e), no healing surges, much less tactical combat which is what D&D is and is an action arcade RPG gameplay to name a few major differences.

  • Ambros123Ambros123 Member Posts: 877
    Originally posted by dzoni87

    Hello,

      First thing to clarify if you havent read or played 4ed ruleset yet: combat is made around more simple mechanics called "Powers". Now literally, each and every class have them and they are separated into three categories: at-will, encounter and daily powers. To many older DnD players, this mechanic was very similar to MMORPG combat mechanics, moreso than PnP (which recieved a widely negative backlash and, according to some, was worst change implemented in one edition of DnD ever). To summarize it: combat in 4ed is more simplified and made more 'hack and slash'.

      Now my point is: i can see it implemented very well in Neverwinter. However, combat in NW is somewhat different than in standard MMOs. It is not a standard button masher, you need to aim to hit someone (hope this will actually work, unlike in TERA) you need to watch out for 'flanking' positions etc. But, it can work pretty good for 4ed's combat and for what it is.

      And as for classes they are releasing: they are made out of pre-set builds from 4ed (control wizard, trickster rogue etc. to name a few). So far, the class that is most close to healer, that can come to my mind could be "Protection Paladin" if he will be released at all. This all being said, the fact is - 4ed, no matter how good or bad it is, doesnt have trinity mechanics in combat. It is still, even simplified, the same combat system that was present in earlier editions.

      Bottom line: so far from gameplay videos etc. it seems that combat can work very well without 'trinity', but will it be present in some stage of the game, remains to be seen. And, once again, combat works pretty well with 4ed, despite that edition seems to be a bit weaker DnD edition.

      As for me, i like DnD, no matter what edition, so i will probably be fine with NW.

    So you would consider a protection paladin more of a healer than a Devote Cleric? 

  • dzoni87dzoni87 Member Posts: 541
    Originally posted by SwampRob

    Nice post, Dzoni.

    As a longtime D&D player (since mid 70s), I think your post is spot on.   The main detractor for me, when it comes to D&D video games, is realtime vs turn-based.   No part of the pen and paper game requires twitch mechanics, hand-eye coordination, etc.  For me, any D&D video game needs to be turn-based otherwise it is, at best, D&D-like.   

    I can accept the DM-less environment, even though it reduces the D&D game to almost exclusively combat.   I can accept that certain powers will never make it into the game (Wish spell), but I can't stand the thought of dying because I didn't push a button fast enough.   That is just so very much NOT D&D.

    Some of the virtual tables I've played D&D on far more accurately represent and reproduce the game better than NW or DDO.   But if some devs ever came out with a NW-like version that was turn-based, I'd be sending the my cash regularly.    Something similar to games like Baldur's Gate but multiplayer with modern graphics.   Add in the ability for player-created content and I'll never need any other Fantasy game.

     

     

      Well, i agree with most of what you said. Out of "Temple of Elemental Evil" i am yet to see a DnD-based video game with turn-based combat that so close represent DnD combat ruleset. Heck, i didnt even liked Baldurs Gate's combat system and constant need to pause to plan your moves head on (not saying that combat itself is bad due to it, just my experience).

      That being said, i never play a video game, let alone MMO for the same reasons i am playing 'pen and paper' games. Even as you said, when i want to 'roleplay' with other people, i find using "Dungeonforge" or other virtual 'table' simulators to be more true than any "DnD video game" even Baldurs Gate. The same thing happen when i decide to RP in MMO with guildies or such - i suggest something like Skype DnD session (combined with some before-mentioned software) and we end up with it over MMO RP. However that is another story out of this topic.

      Long story short: i play MMORPGs nowadays only to level-up/craft/loot/kill stuff or to socialize with like-minded people in virtual world. And because of that, i may not have issues with playing NW at all. But if i wanted something more in-depth, i will use something else for that, other than Video game/MMORPG.

    Main MMO at the moment: Guild Wars 2
    Waiting for: Pathfinder Online

  • SlechtvalkSlechtvalk Member Posts: 33

    Thank you very much for the precise explanation.

    I do also wonder that a protection paladine could be the healer role. But for myself as typical healer im ok with wearing heavy armor instead of robes.

     

    The point with powers is something i do not really understand, but thats at this point absolute ok for me. i got the main message of your explanations.

     

    Everything else will be seen during beta / after release.

     

    Thank you

     

    P.S.: Pathfinder, from the pathfinder pnp = inofficial D&D 3.5? I was thinking about buying the 4ed rules. but its hard to get it in germany (the english version, a german translation wont be done for 4ed) and some critics about 4ed say that pathfinder as new pnp pics up the 3.5ed and pathfinder would be a better 4ed?

  • Ambros123Ambros123 Member Posts: 877
    Originally posted by Slechtvalk

    Thank you very much for the precise explanation.

    I do also wonder that a protection paladine could be the healer role. But for myself as typical healer im ok with wearing heavy armor instead of robes.

     

    The point with powers is something i do not really understand, but thats at this point absolute ok for me. i got the main message of your explanations.

     

    Everything else will be seen during beta / after release.

     

    Thank you

     

    P.S.: Pathfinder, from the pathfinder pnp = inofficial D&D 3.5? I was thinking about buying the 4ed rules. but its hard to get it in germany (the english version, a german translation wont be done for 4ed) and some critics about 4ed say that pathfinder as new pnp pics up the 3.5ed and pathfinder would be a better 4ed?

    Well when D&D release 4e many went up in arms over a "WoWifying" of D&D and thuse Pathfinder was born as it's roots are centered around 3.5e.  Apparently it gained a very significant following to the point that Wizards is already working on a 5e, doubtful that Pathfinder was the reason for it but certainly a contributing factor.

    Check out Dungeons and Dragons Encounters, I know in the US we have these events at local comic stores and something pushed by Wizards of the Coast.  This is a great thing to go attend to get a feet of 4e.

  • gillrmngillrmn Member Posts: 250
    Originally posted by Slechtvalk 

    We know 4 classes by video now. In my eyes (yes correct me if i am wrong) a tank class and 3 damagedealer. I am not sure if i understood all right. The old editions know healers, but tanking, well i had session where my old mage took aggro on a dragon, well oops and my own fault.

    so is this game designed as trinity, or are all classes almost good damagedealer, with the plus for tanks having aggro management and clerics some heals?

    No, there are four roles in 4e and there is no trinity. The four roles are Defender, controller, striker and leader. There is no "tank" as such which has infinite armor or something. A defender grabs aggro and stuns and/or damages the marked target when they decide to ignore it. The combat in 4e PnP is much complex and situational than 3e and hence it requires minis or at least a map. Because minis are much of a requirement than comfort due to complex nature of combat, it was criticised by many gamers(blah blah blah requires minis - in the 4e dragon interview video on youtube).

    Healers are not required at all due to healing surges. You need a leader - one which can buff you or debuff you and make those Oh ****! situations easier. There is no need of healer.

    the second with this, if not, if its an old designed trinity, i can suddenly hear the normal folks cry "we want dual class" not in the way it was meant in former 2nd edition. the wow, rift, and other style, beeing able to change between a dd / healer / tanking role.

    There is a vast multiclassing and hybrid in 4e which is different than 3e multiclassing. For example in hybrid, you need not take a class once and then one later. You take two classes toghether. Like first level you take half of fighter and half of mage. The system is extensive and crazy so it will be tough for anyone to implement it at launch. However as the mechanics are already defined in pnp, the game can always use the mechanics of multiclass and hybrid later.

    I am taking concern about this, because in my eyes this would give us the old problem as in any other game, almost no one wants to tank, and playing a healer to top level means beeing less fast. so this would be good for the player.

     No trinity, so it is ok. Also roles are not strictly class defined. You can do multiple roles at once. Just that a primary role for your class is what you are good at. For example, in all 3e games, sorcerers were good damagers while wizards were versatile and gave you buffs. Hence sorc in 4e are strikers and wizard are controllers(cc) but it does not mean sorc can't cc or wizard can't damage.

    its not that I need that, but i fear the cries of the mass, and a producer who changes the mechanic to somewhat which could be just a normal mmo, and not D&D? i mean, this game is special to me, because its D&D. on the other side, I wouldnt like it, when its a normal mmo with just a "D&D label" in its loading screen.

     WotC is developing the game closely with cryptic stamping everything with approved mark, even color of beholder's eyes. I don't know of any other authority which can decide what D&D is.

    so, what will it be, taking the rules and mechanics of 4th edition pen & paper, or a more weakened ruleset?

     Adapting the turn based mechanics to the active time combat of the game. It is not a copy of pnp ruleset. Its an adaptation. Because in game you can move your character, jump when you want, you don't need numbers to decide when you dodge. The numbers will only make the "dodge" more responsive. Less numbers will mean the reaction time of your toon is higher to respond to your command to dodge.

    What you think about that, hopefully you understood my thought, english is not my mothertongue, sorry! but learning never ends.

    s Half knowledge is dangerous. So I sugest you try to play and understand it yourself. 4e is quite different from 3e and more similar to pre-3e editions as it is easy to jump in to start the game. However once you start going to depths it keeps on becoming complex like a bottomless abyss.

  • gillrmngillrmn Member Posts: 250
    Originally posted by Slechtvalk

    ...

    I do also wonder that a protection paladine could be the healer role. But for myself as typical healer im ok with wearing heavy armor instead of robes.

     The point with powers is something i do not really understand, but thats at this point absolute ok for me. i got the main message of your explanations.

    Devoted clerics are what you will call healers. Protecting paladins are closer to guardian fighters.

    However, there are no healers but as I said before - leaders. Clerics do wear chain armor out of the box but they need feats to wear any armor of higher tier. For the feat they need high STR and CON in odd numbers (15 and 17 resp). A warpriest can afford that much and can get ful-plate or scale, but a devoted cleric may not be able to go higher than chain.

    Paladins have defender role.

    Clerics have leader role.

  • DraemosDraemos Member UncommonPosts: 1,521
    I'm really hoping they utilize the trinity system, especially if this game is primarily based around 5-man dungeon crawls.  I know some folks may not be big fans of the trinity, but the alternatives have not impressed me at all.
  • gillrmngillrmn Member Posts: 250
    Originally posted by Draemos
    I'm really hoping they utilize the trinity system, especially if this game is primarily based around 5-man dungeon crawls.  I know some folks may not be big fans of the trinity, but the alternatives have not impressed me at all.

    Four role system is established and tested system from D&D PnP game. Its mechanics have statistically been tested by avid PnP gamers all across the globe, have been remodeled on feedback and made perfect.

     

    That is much different than shoddy mechanics other games copy from elsewhere and test internally - one unique advantage of being a D&D game. Give it a try first.

  • azzamasinazzamasin Member UncommonPosts: 3,105
    Originally posted by SwampRob

    Nice post, Dzoni.

    As a longtime D&D player (since mid 70s), I think your post is spot on.   The main detractor for me, when it comes to D&D video games, is realtime vs turn-based.   No part of the pen and paper game requires twitch mechanics, hand-eye coordination, etc.  For me, any D&D video game needs to be turn-based otherwise it is, at best, D&D-like.   

    I can accept the DM-less environment, even though it reduces the D&D game to almost exclusively combat.   I can accept that certain powers will never make it into the game (Wish spell), but I can't stand the thought of dying because I didn't push a button fast enough.   That is just so very much NOT D&D.

    Some of the virtual tables I've played D&D on far more accurately represent and reproduce the game better than NW or DDO.   But if some devs ever came out with a NW-like version that was turn-based, I'd be sending the my cash regularly.    Something similar to games like Baldur's Gate but multiplayer with modern graphics.   Add in the ability for player-created content and I'll never need any other Fantasy game.

     

     

    Theres a huge problem when transitioning from one medium to another and I highly suggest you watch:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5QFqtpWO1s&feature=player_detailpage

     

    Jack Emmert explains how D&D turn based can be portrayed in an action setting faithfully.  Besides turn based combat in an MMO would be a horrible game no matter how you slice it.  It would be worse then WoW style Tab Targetting.

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

  • gillrmngillrmn Member Posts: 250
    Originally posted by azzamasin
    Originally posted by SwampRob
    ...

    Theres a huge problem when transitioning from one medium to another and I highly suggest you watch:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5QFqtpWO1s&feature=player_detailpage ...

    That is a very nice reference. Not many people quote it but it contains treasure of information for PnP players who also play video games :)

  • SwampRobSwampRob Member UncommonPosts: 1,003
    Originally posted by azzamasin
    Originally posted by SwampRob

    Nice post, Dzoni.

    As a longtime D&D player (since mid 70s), I think your post is spot on.   The main detractor for me, when it comes to D&D video games, is realtime vs turn-based.   No part of the pen and paper game requires twitch mechanics, hand-eye coordination, etc.  For me, any D&D video game needs to be turn-based otherwise it is, at best, D&D-like.   

    I can accept the DM-less environment, even though it reduces the D&D game to almost exclusively combat.   I can accept that certain powers will never make it into the game (Wish spell), but I can't stand the thought of dying because I didn't push a button fast enough.   That is just so very much NOT D&D.

    Some of the virtual tables I've played D&D on far more accurately represent and reproduce the game better than NW or DDO.   But if some devs ever came out with a NW-like version that was turn-based, I'd be sending the my cash regularly.    Something similar to games like Baldur's Gate but multiplayer with modern graphics.   Add in the ability for player-created content and I'll never need any other Fantasy game.

    Theres a huge problem when transitioning from one medium to another and I highly suggest you watch:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5QFqtpWO1s&feature=player_detailpage

     Jack Emmert explains how D&D turn based can be portrayed in an action setting faithfully.  Besides turn based combat in an MMO would be a horrible game no matter how you slice it.  It would be worse then WoW style Tab Targetting.

    I've played many games on a virtual table that were turn-based.    To play a game like D&D well, it does not and should not require any twitch skills whatsoever.   You can, and should be able to take a full minute to take your turn.    While I can accept that some people wouldn't enjoy this type of gameplay, turn-based doesn't mean horrible in a video game.    I would happily pay a monthly fee for a video game which accurately represented 4e rules.

     

  • gillrmngillrmn Member Posts: 250

    You misunderstand, he said horrible in MMO, not horrible in video games. We all like BG - a single player game based on turn and stuff.

    But in MMO people would hate to wait for a person who stops the flow too much. There are turn based games - like atlantica - but they have a limited following and are kind of completely different.

  • SwampRobSwampRob Member UncommonPosts: 1,003
    Originally posted by gillrmn

    You misunderstand, he said horrible in MMO, not horrible in video games. We all like BG - a single player game based on turn and stuff.

    But in MMO people would hate to wait for a person who stops the flow too much. There are turn based games - like atlantica - but they have a limited following and are kind of completely different.

    A fair point, and you're right that it's easy to see the kind of problems a turn-based system could cause in an MMO.

    That said, ANY proper video game version of D&D must be utterly without twitch-skill requirements.   None whatsoever.    No aiming, no dodging, etc.   All of that is handled through the math that the pnp D&D system uses, and an accurate representation in video game form needs to maintain that.

  • dwarflordkingdwarflordking Member Posts: 265
    its like you want a boring game that will fail
  • gillrmngillrmn Member Posts: 250
    Originally posted by ricefarmer
    its like you want a boring game that will fail

    People like all sorts of game and there is market of every game out there when "done right", but I do see your point here. DDO did try to make it a 'haven' for core D&D crowd, but it had to bend a little and change it to accomodate for MMO crowd over time as the crowd who is 'core D&D' and plays a D&D video game regularly - is apparently not able to sustain a MMO.

  • SwampRobSwampRob Member UncommonPosts: 1,003
    Originally posted by gillrmn
    Originally posted by ricefarmer
    its like you want a boring game that will fail

    People like all sorts of game and there is market of every game out there when "done right", but I do see your point here. DDO did try to make it a 'haven' for core D&D crowd, but it had to bend a little and change it to accomodate for MMO crowd over time as the crowd who is 'core D&D' and plays a D&D video game regularly - is apparently not able to sustain a MMO.

    Exactly.

    Pen and Paper D&D doesn't reward insta-reaction skills.   My ability to jump in that game is not a matter of clicking the mouse button when I am precisely over a certain set of pixels.   And when have you ever been able to use diplomacy or bribery to avoid a conflict in an MMO?

    In proper D&D, skill isn't measured by your ability to twitch react, but rather your ability to be creative, to think beyond the 4 or 5 power buttons you have in front of you.    I doubt a video game can or will ever be created that gives a true D&D experience.

  • gillrmngillrmn Member Posts: 250
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    ...

    ... have always felt the turn-based paper mechanics were there to represent the action the only way it could for that medium, that is represented what couldn't be presented in real time.  ...

    That is a great line and exactly how I feel too :-)

     

    Indeed random chance of dice rolling presents the different possibilities of calculating/miscalculating a strategy properly. Similarly AC is there to ensure if you were able to touch the opponent with sword or not.

    If above can be emulated in real time, we should not need mathematics to calculate chance on whether you move or not.

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