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DF dodges macro question - macroing is in

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Comments

  • Lt.DeadendLt.Deadend Winnipeg, MBPosts: 325Member

    The problem with darkfall is it took them forever and a day to get that game released, YEARS,.

    And it was sadly behind the MMO curve by like 3 years, but hey, Late is better then never.

    its never the players fault for using 3rd party programs, the theme now for developers is to make a game where players dont NEED to do it,. but lots still will,. just the way it is..

    Darkfall devs never gave up on DF1 an released a 3year late game anyways,. Its like they have heart, like a fighter in a cage, so I think they will make something good one day,.

     

     

     

  • ArnoagnsArnoagns highland, INPosts: 100Member
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by psykobilly
    Originally posted by Hancakes

    If you can only contribute 1-2 hours a day to DF perhaps you need to find another game , stick to crafting or macro. 

    ^^^^^ Can everyone else see how moronic this approach is to making a successful game?

     

     

    It is a little moronic - who has that much time to play games like this?

    Agreed. A lot of us don't have time to "maintain" their character in a game. If you're making an adult game you should cater to adults, agreed whole-heartedly.

  • HotjazzHotjazz BalsfjordPosts: 742Member
    Originally posted by Arnoagns
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by psykobilly
    Originally posted by Hancakes

    If you can only contribute 1-2 hours a day to DF perhaps you need to find another game , stick to crafting or macro. 

    ^^^^^ Can everyone else see how moronic this approach is to making a successful game?

     

     

    It is a little moronic - who has that much time to play games like this?

    Agreed. A lot of us don't have time to "maintain" their character in a game. If you're making an adult game you should cater to adults, agreed whole-heartedly.

    Haha, Two hours a day in a game is not enough?

    Most players would have to sell their soul to play more than that, if they had a job or relationship. No wonder people called DF1 players unemploid basement-dwellers. If it got the grind similar to DF1 or players can`t participate with less than 3 hours a day, no coding can save this game.

  • RealbigdealRealbigdeal Vimont, QCPosts: 1,625Member
    Originally posted by Lt.Deadend

    The problem with darkfall is it took them forever and a day to get that game released, YEARS,.

    And it was sadly behind the MMO curve by like 3 years, but hey, Late is better then never.

    its never the players fault for using 3rd party programs, the theme now for developers is to make a game where players dont NEED to do it,. but lots still will,. just the way it is..

    Darkfall devs never gave up on DF1 an released a 3year late game anyways,. Its like they have heart, like a fighter in a cage, so I think they will make something good one day,.

     

     

     

    Macroing potential is not something that kills a game like DF.The grind alone and the gap in DF 1.0 is what killed the game. Macroing was just an excuse to leave sooner since players from day EU day 1 were hardcore enough to max out their characters with or without macroing. The grind was also infinit.

    BTW, macroing is in. Thats confirmed. Self heal, transfers and most self buffs is what you're gonna spam before you start playing. While doing these, you'd probably want to go watch tv or movies. This is the truh unless they change something before release. 

    With that being said, the grind is still lower than ever. Nothing like it used to be. Some players already have some of their active skills at 100 and i heard one player who has 150 dex or something. Thats less than a month and also note that the DF server got wiped multple times. 3-4 times so far.

    Also, the fact that you cant be a super hybrid and you must make specific decision for your stats distribution, hp mana stam and class means that the grind is even more lower than ever.

     

    TL DR: I woudlnt worry about the macroers. If you like to grind since you enjoy it, dont do it. The grind is so fast that you will only ruin your own playstyle if you do it. Go play runescape if you want a grind for ever.

    C:\Users\FF\Desktop\spin move.gif

  • Lt.DeadendLt.Deadend Winnipeg, MBPosts: 325Member
    Originally posted by Hotjazz
    Originally posted by Arnoagns
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by psykobilly
    Originally posted by Hancakes

    If you can only contribute 1-2 hours a day to DF perhaps you need to find another game , stick to crafting or macro. 

    ^^^^^ Can everyone else see how moronic this approach is to making a successful game?

     

     

    It is a little moronic - who has that much time to play games like this?

    Agreed. A lot of us don't have time to "maintain" their character in a game. If you're making an adult game you should cater to adults, agreed whole-heartedly.

    Haha, Two hours a day in a game is not enough?

    Most players would have to sell their soul to play more than that, if they had a job or relationship. No wonder people called DF1 players unemploid basement-dwellers. If it got the grind similar to DF1 or players can`t participate with less than 3 hours a day, no coding can save this game.

    no, 2 hours a day is nothing,. Not sure why you think your own life exp is "most players". common mistake made by the human mind, "thinking its the center of the universe"

    well I got news for  you, "most players" play much more then 2 hours a day,. like who are you kidding?

    Path of exile has a one week race event right now, and there is a lot of people playing 40-50 hours non stop,. and a lot more doing 24 hours,. A handfull are streaming the whole thing,. 1 guy is doing 100 hours no sleep,. its crazy,

    just saying,.

  • xzyaxxzyax Fargo, NDPosts: 2,459Member
    Originally posted by Lt.Deadend
    Originally posted by Hotjazz
    Originally posted by Arnoagns
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by psykobilly
    Originally posted by Hancakes

    If you can only contribute 1-2 hours a day to DF perhaps you need to find another game , stick to crafting or macro. 

    ^^^^^ Can everyone else see how moronic this approach is to making a successful game?

     

     

    It is a little moronic - who has that much time to play games like this?

    Agreed. A lot of us don't have time to "maintain" their character in a game. If you're making an adult game you should cater to adults, agreed whole-heartedly.

    Haha, Two hours a day in a game is not enough?

    Most players would have to sell their soul to play more than that, if they had a job or relationship. No wonder people called DF1 players unemploid basement-dwellers. If it got the grind similar to DF1 or players can`t participate with less than 3 hours a day, no coding can save this game.

    no, 2 hours a day is nothing,. Not sure why you think your own life exp is "most players". common mistake made by the human mind, "thinking its the center of the universe"

    well I got news for  you, "most players" play much more then 2 hours a day,. like who are you kidding?

    Path of exile has a one week race event right now, and there is a lot of people playing 40-50 hours non stop,. and a lot more doing 24 hours,. A handfull are streaming the whole thing,. 1 guy is doing 100 hours no sleep,. its crazy,

    just saying,.

    Didn't you do pretty much the same thing?

     

    You gave anecdoctal evidence of why your experience is correct and theirs is wrong.

     

    There is no way to verify the amount that "most players" spend in game.  Polls from the forums only measure those who visit the forums... which for most MMOs is usually a minority of the player-base.  That would be even more true for DarkFall being in it's Beta - non-released state.

     

    So, the only thing any of us can say with certainty is that we have no idea.  We can then state how we play, how friends of ours play, etc.   Thank-you for your opinion on the matter and we will make note of your personal experience... just like everyone else.  image

  • Lt.DeadendLt.Deadend Winnipeg, MBPosts: 325Member
    Originally posted by xzyax
    Originally posted by Lt.Deadend
    Originally posted by Hotjazz
    Originally posted by Arnoagns
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by psykobilly
    Originally posted by Hancakes

    If you can only contribute 1-2 hours a day to DF perhaps you need to find another game , stick to crafting or macro. 

    ^^^^^ Can everyone else see how moronic this approach is to making a successful game?

     

     

    It is a little moronic - who has that much time to play games like this?

    Agreed. A lot of us don't have time to "maintain" their character in a game. If you're making an adult game you should cater to adults, agreed whole-heartedly.

    Haha, Two hours a day in a game is not enough?

    Most players would have to sell their soul to play more than that, if they had a job or relationship. No wonder people called DF1 players unemploid basement-dwellers. If it got the grind similar to DF1 or players can`t participate with less than 3 hours a day, no coding can save this game.

    no, 2 hours a day is nothing,. Not sure why you think your own life exp is "most players". common mistake made by the human mind, "thinking its the center of the universe"

    well I got news for  you, "most players" play much more then 2 hours a day,. like who are you kidding?

    Path of exile has a one week race event right now, and there is a lot of people playing 40-50 hours non stop,. and a lot more doing 24 hours,. A handfull are streaming the whole thing,. 1 guy is doing 100 hours no sleep,. its crazy,

    just saying,.

    Didn't you do pretty much the same thing?

     

    You gave anecdoctal evidence of why your experience is correct and theirs is wrong.

     

    There is no way to verify the amount that "most players" spend in game.  Polls from the forums only measure those who visit the forums... which for most MMOs is usually a minority of the player-base.  That would be even more true for DarkFall being in it's Beta - non-released state.

     

    So, the only thing any of us can say with certainty is that we have no idea.  We can then state how we play, how friends of ours play, etc.   Thank-you for your opinion on the matter and we will make note of your personal experience... just like everyone else.  image

    No, I was careful with my words, I said "much more" its an unknown number.

    I based my opinion off what I have seen over the years, not the amount that " I play "

    but the point here is, He said no game coding can save a game if the average player cant keep up with only 2 hours a day.

    2 hours is nothing,. what a pointless argument..

     

  • Crunchy222Crunchy222 new york, ILPosts: 386Member
    Originally posted by Lt.Deadend
    Originally posted by xzyax
    Originally posted by Lt.Deadend
    Originally posted by Hotjazz
    Originally posted by Arnoagns
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by psykobilly
    Originally posted by Hancakes

    If you can only contribute 1-2 hours a day to DF perhaps you need to find another game , stick to crafting or macro. 

    ^^^^^ Can everyone else see how moronic this approach is to making a successful game?

     

     

    It is a little moronic - who has that much time to play games like this?

    Agreed. A lot of us don't have time to "maintain" their character in a game. If you're making an adult game you should cater to adults, agreed whole-heartedly.

    Haha, Two hours a day in a game is not enough?

    Most players would have to sell their soul to play more than that, if they had a job or relationship. No wonder people called DF1 players unemploid basement-dwellers. If it got the grind similar to DF1 or players can`t participate with less than 3 hours a day, no coding can save this game.

    no, 2 hours a day is nothing,. Not sure why you think your own life exp is "most players". common mistake made by the human mind, "thinking its the center of the universe"

    well I got news for  you, "most players" play much more then 2 hours a day,. like who are you kidding?

    Path of exile has a one week race event right now, and there is a lot of people playing 40-50 hours non stop,. and a lot more doing 24 hours,. A handfull are streaming the whole thing,. 1 guy is doing 100 hours no sleep,. its crazy,

    just saying,.

    Didn't you do pretty much the same thing?

     

    You gave anecdoctal evidence of why your experience is correct and theirs is wrong.

     

    There is no way to verify the amount that "most players" spend in game.  Polls from the forums only measure those who visit the forums... which for most MMOs is usually a minority of the player-base.  That would be even more true for DarkFall being in it's Beta - non-released state.

     

    So, the only thing any of us can say with certainty is that we have no idea.  We can then state how we play, how friends of ours play, etc.   Thank-you for your opinion on the matter and we will make note of your personal experience... just like everyone else.  image

    No, I was careful with my words, I said "much more" its an unknown number.

    I based my opinion off what I have seen over the years, not the amount that " I play "

    but the point here is, He said no game coding can save a game if the average player cant keep up with only 2 hours a day.

    2 hours is nothing,. what a pointless argument..

     

    This entire chain of posts misses what use to be the main point of mmorpgs.  This thread of posts im quoting assumes the ONLY thing to do in game occurs at max level, i used the word level because thats how these people act, like you need to hit 80 for the game to start.

    Then the assumption is made that you cant do anything and therefore you need to hit max fast, which is why anyone who did it either macroed (botted) or has no life.

    Yet you all cant even fathom the thought that people (use to and still do) play games for entertainment, not concerned with how quickly they can get to endgame.

    I maxed my 1.0 character, it took about 2 years to do it, and i had a life all the way through.  I enjoyed the game a few hours at a time, typically with sunday as me nerdrage grind day.

    1.0 would have been 100 times more fun had the FPS community not infested its ranked and macroed up 2 years woth of skills in a month, i would have had actual pvp thought my play.  I still enjoyed the game though, yeah i know im in a minority here, but that was how the game was intended to be played.

     

    You shouldnt be required to play any amount of time because the goal of the game shouldnt be to race to the end as fast as humanly possible, it would make mmorpgs boring...which is probably why most people are so bored playing their games (yet cant think of anything else to do with their time its sad i know)

    People like me do exist.  It use to be the only type of people who played mmorpgs prior to 2004 when wow told everyone they need to race to endgame because the game prior to it is shit and the only good thing to do is hit max level and get on that hampsterwheel of instanced pvp and raids.

     

    I really wish people would go back to playing the game for enjoyment and not attempting to race to the end, games were much more fun back then, and the community was so much more enjoyable, since the only goal wasnt to shit on other players and beat your chest like something was actually accomplished.

     

    But yeah, this assumption you have to bot, its self fufilling, others see it, not doing it then puts legit payers at a huge disadvantage, they end up leaving, potential players stay away, and were left with the same boring 1.0 community who chased away the players in 1.0, used the same excuse that it was the grind and they had to bot ect.

     

    I know this is a really tired comment, but if you feel the need to bot to enjoy the game...please...for gods sake, please go find another game to play, rather than drag down the only full loot pvp sandbox on the market again.  Really you guys would be much happier in another game with no progression and super fair pvp based only on player skill.. They exist. Please find them.

  • DAS1337DAS1337 Parma, OHPosts: 2,404Member
    Originally posted by psykobilly

     

    Quote from latest interview:

    " To give one example, in the first Darkfall, the skills that where macroed quite a lot where movement skills like run sprint and swim because of the benefits they provided to relevant passive skills. In Unholy Wars this will not be the case as movement skills can no longer be leveled up."

    Ok first of all... you didn't 'macro' sprint or swim you just hit numlock and swam into a wall.  That is not a macro.  You didn't do it to level up swimming, you did it to raise stats.  The guy didn't mention if these activities will have an impact on stats - if they do then expect to see afk swimmers.  If they don't then expect to see afk melee macros to raise stats, or whatever function raises stats.

    He also mentioned heal self and transfers are in, and I assume some buffs are in - all of these spells are easily macroed.

    The macro question was totally dodged and the obvious answer is that, yes, people will macro their spells and stats just like in DF1.

    Be prepared to get your macro on or fall behind.

     

     

     

    I guess you could be right... unless you can't comprehend the English language.  Many people in this world can't, that's fine.

     

    He states, explicitly, in that quote that movement skills can no longer be leveled to gain passive bonusus.  

     

    Using a bit of knowledge of the game system, one should come to the conclusion that passive bonuses means attribute gains.  This must be true, because there is no other bonus gained other than the actually movement skill gain itself.

     

    Ultimately, there is macro'ing in every single game out there.  Whether it's a simple key macro or an elaborate macro script that performs the actions of what you would see in a bot, it is always going to be present in the game.  People are just lazy, or really smart.. depending on how you look at it.

  • psykobillypsykobilly NYC, NYPosts: 338Member
     

    Ultimately, there is macro'ing in every single game out there.  Whether it's a simple key macro or an elaborate macro script that performs the actions of what you would see in a bot, it is always going to be present in the game.  People are just lazy, or really smart.. depending on how you look at it.

    It's total shit game design.   There does NOT have to be macroing.

    Once again the solution to the majority of current macroing in game:  DIMINISHING RETURNS.

    If I hit X target for more than Y time my skill gains decrease to zero over time (you can set those variables any number of ways).  This completely eliminates macroing against players.  This completely eliminates macroing against mounts.  This completely eliminates macroing against bugged mobs.  Right there that solves the vast majority of macro issues.

    Then you have to address self-cast macroing.  Stat-gain should not happen once a spell or skill is past 100 (This is why we see people macroing in safe zones still, even though they have their transfers/role skills maxed).  You could also limit gain-per-day on self casts, which greatly reduces the amount of self-cast macroing that is possible.

    Just becuse there are a lot of bad games out there doesn't mean that there aren't solutions.  Tasos and company are just too stupid to grasp good game design, like you.

  • LahuzerLahuzer BorPosts: 666Member Uncommon
    This whole macroing crap is why I long for Pathfinder Online and also think Age of Wushu/Wulin does it right. No macro in the world helps you there. You have to play the game to get max outa experience points in Wushu/Wulin. I love it. I hate that since DF is a competative PVP game, if you wanna compete with the top players, you will have to macro to keep up. It sure is a shitty desgin, and I still hope AV can fix it b4 launch, but I highly doubt it.
  • jedensuscgjedensuscg Kodiak, AKPosts: 209Member
    Originally posted by SirFubar
    Originally posted by Panossian

    Macro'ing is something that's going to happen in any sandbox/skill based game, it's been around long before DF.

    What?? Macroing is one of the worst thing you can put in a skill based game. It takes out a huge part of skill from any game. It's just there to dumb down the game so that noob players who can't press multiple keys fast can now do it the easy way. If DFUW have any kind of macro, I surely won't be playing the game.

    Two part fail here.

    First, they are not talking about macro's built into the game, but macroing using third party software to "bot" your character while your away from the keyboard.  All macros that are built into games have limits that prevent them from being used AFK.  In the first iterration of DF, you got a third party program or a fancy keyboard and used it to have your charater cast endless spells or swing your weapon while you were off taking a nap, this was to level up the skills even when you were not at the keyboard.

    Second, the kind of macro you are talking about do not always dumb down the game.  There are many ways macros save effort and time without giving an advantage.  I used macro's alot in WoW, but only to bind multiple spells to fewer buttons.  So number 1 would be spell A, Shift 1 would be spell B, ctrl 1 would be spell C.  I also would make some keys target dependent.  Target an enemy then its my damage spell, target a friend then its a heal.  If you think this dumbs down the game, then I am sorry I don't have super human hands and can have the insane number of skills most MMO's have bound to every single key on my keyboard, or as you probably do, just move your mouse all over the screen hittig the 300 skill buttons.  In Rift however, I only use macros to change my role and gear with one button press, rather then having to do it in two. Its a time saver.  Rift makes it far easier to bind the keys the way I want.

    Now want I DONT agree with is chain casting using a single macro.  That IS lazy.  Binding 6 skills to cast one after the other  just by pressing a single key IS dumbing down the game (and the players, as they lose all ability to be reactive, and change tactics on the fly).  Also what makes macros pathetic are addons like healbot in wow. Now THAT makes you a stupid pathetic loser healer.  I could out heal 99% of players using healbot with my custom macros(again to condense my many healing spells from 15 keys to 5 keys with modifiers). Yes sure my fingers might get a little cramped from all the shift and ctr and alt keys I am pressing but I can react to any situation...and when a new patch broke the healbot addon, I did not suck until they fixed it.

     

    Other uses of addons, are announcmens when you cast a certain spell or taunt, letting the raid know something important, like you just tauned the boss off the other tank, and they should be prepared to heal you.

     

    In DFUW's case, the macroing issue IS about lazyness and pathetic people that will use any cheap means possible to be successful with zero effort.  Its the American way.

    image

  • TsaboHavocTsaboHavoc PinheiralPosts: 351Member
    wouldnt lock time progression solve the problem *hides*
  • TwitchnTwitchn Johnson City, TNPosts: 33Member
    Just put in the eve or perpetuum type skill system and everything will be solved.
  • ExzyzExzyz LinkopingPosts: 70Member Uncommon

    Eve and Perpeetum skillgain is not that great either. It is hard for newcomers to get into the game because some people sit on     

    tons of skillpoint and can use the high tier ships. 

    Banning macroers is the way to go tbh and make it so you dont get anything from hitting otherplayers.

  • TruthXHurtsTruthXHurts El Do, KSPosts: 1,555Member
    Besides dumbing the game down, and shrinking the map I don't know what the difference between this and DF1. It should be called DF NGE. Macros are still very real. The elitists still macro 24/7, and will soon be untouchable by new players. While the class system may have reduced the gap between vets and new players it has gone form a Marianas trench type gap to a Grand Canyon.

    I will say that at this point early on the game feels much more competitive, but I feel that after a couple of months we will be basically back where we were. THe AFK Macro douchebags will ruin the game again and everyone will quit.

    "I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"

  • RealbigdealRealbigdeal Vimont, QCPosts: 1,625Member
    Originally posted by TruthXHurts
    Besides dumbing the game down, and shrinking the map I don't know what the difference between this and DF1. It should be called DF NGE. Macros are still very real. The elitists still macro 24/7, and will soon be untouchable by new players. While the class system may have reduced the gap between vets and new players it has gone form a Marianas trench type gap to a Grand Canyon. I will say that at this point early on the game feels much more competitive, but I feel that after a couple of months we will be basically back where we were. THe AFK Macro douchebags will ruin the game again and everyone will quit.

    Back in DF1 macro's never killed the game. Its the gap that killed it. It took from 6 to 2 years to max out a character. In DF UW, You can max out your playstyle so fast that the only things that will really matter is the gear grind, economy and conquest.

    There's no grind in DF UW. Only thing macroers will ruin is their own playtrough.

    C:\Users\FF\Desktop\spin move.gif

  • HotjazzHotjazz BalsfjordPosts: 742Member
    Originally posted by Lahuzer
     I hate that since DF is a competative PVP game, if you wanna compete with the top players, you will have to macro to keep up. It sure is a shitty desgin, and I still hope AV can fix it b4 launch, but I highly doubt it.

    Yes it is a shitty design to have a huge grind in a full-loot mmo.

    We have to grind thousands of NPCs or macro just to take part in the fun parts of DFUW. I grinded tens of thousands boring NPCs in DF1, but I wont be doing that shit again in DFUW. I`m not a fan of macroing either, but it`s far better than killing NPCs.

    I`m an avid defender of full-loot pvp mmos, and I loved the pvp, conquest and politics in DF1. Sadly I can`t bring myself to do a huge grind again, and most likely I will close my three accounts and find another game to play.

     

    When half the post on forumfall is about macroing and grind, then something is rotten in the kingdom of Agon.

  • osmundaosmunda slidell, LAPosts: 1,087Member
    Originally posted by Realbigdeal

    Back in DF1 macro's never killed the game. Its the gap that killed it. It took from 6 to 2 years to max out a character. In DF UW, You can max out your playstyle so fast that the only things that will really matter is the gear grind, economy and conquest.

    There's no grind in DF UW. Only thing macroers will ruin is their own playtrough.

    And that gap came about because the game had a long skill/stat progression. The people willing to macro through the grind got to the other side of that skill gap, leaving everyone else behind.

    Shortening the skill progression certainly could lessen this gap, but it runs the risk of decreasing peoples sense of investment in their character. Do that too much and characters become throw away, loot becomes more important that character skill and the game turns into a MMOFPS.

    Macroing and botting can't be eliminated, but developers can at least try to make it hard to do effectively.

  • MMO_FanMMO_Fan okc, OKPosts: 166Member
    Originally posted by osmunda
    ...

    Macroing and botting can't be eliminated, but developers can at least try to make it hard to do effectively.

    Not these. They ENCOURAGE macroing as a band-aid for their terrible UI and clunky combat system.

     

    On launch, if you maco your skills you will max out in a 20-30 solid hours or so.

    If you do not macro you will be very low on the food chain on Day 2.

  • psykobillypsykobilly NYC, NYPosts: 338Member
    Originally posted by MMO_Fan
    Originally posted by osmunda
    ...

    Macroing and botting can't be eliminated, but developers can at least try to make it hard to do effectively.

    Not these. They ENCOURAGE macroing as a band-aid for their terrible UI and clunky combat system.

     

    On launch, if you maco your skills you will max out in a 20-30 solid hours or so.

    If you do not macro you will be very low on the food chain on Day 2.

    Naw it's a bit more than this.  I've macroed quite a bit more than 30 hours.  Str and Dex are the easiest...  Wisdom is OK, but Int is a really tough macro right now.  They really hate mages.

     

     

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