What I would like for end game content is scaleable content that takes away the need for end game content because all content is viable 100% of the time no matter what your level, gear or skills are.
It CAN be done, it was spoken about 3 years ago at the GDC with a full explaination on how a single dungeon can be made to stay as viable play from level 1 to max level, for one player, 5, 10, 20 or even 40 man raids and adjust to even the gear people are wearing and even adjust to the class/es of players in the group.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
I'm enjoying the scenarios in MoP. It's like doing the 5-man dungeons, but without the hassel of finding a tank & healer so you can just get in and play insead of waiting for the right group mix.
People like to see an end of the holy trinity, so have the encounter either provide or not require one.
Personally, I enjoy the standard end game stuff, when it's paced right.
Release a game with some large-group encounters that tell a story. Have new content added over the next year or two, which further adds to the story, culminating with some kind of closure.
Release an expansion which starts a new story or chapter, and do it all over again.
As long as the updates are fairly regular (every 3 to 4 months is great), and the gameplay itself is both complex and fun, this cycle works great. Some of my best gaming memories come from raiding in WoW with my guild, spending time on our forums discussing new strategies and helping newer players catch up. Making plans for the weekly raids and the satisfaction of finally beating the content that you've been working on for the last few weeks or months.
There's a real effort>reward system with that, if it's done right. That's not to say the whole end-game needs to be like that. It's nice to have other stuff to do as well, like explore or RP or PVP or whatever. Themeparks get a lot of hate around here, but the the basic idea is actually quite fun, and doesn't have to be at all restricted to just "themepark rides."
The reason so many themeparks failed is simply because they brought nothing new to the table (wow clone), had buggy gameplay, or simply never received the regular updates needed between expansions. I think a lot of them thought they could cheat the system by making PvP the end-game focus, but it really just never pans out.
Sandbox games have pleanty of failures as well, but what happens is they finally get released and players discount them as not being sandbox enough because it doesn't meet up to their lofty expectations.
No such thing as end game. Give me a reason to keep earning xp after my character is completely developed (I use the word developed because I like like learning and improving skills over time but hate what having a level attached to a character does to the game). In SWG pre-cu and cu, I didn't really have that big of a desire to be a jedi but it became my answer to "what next?" once I had used up all my skill points on my tree for my combat toon. In NGE, I chose a jedi for one of my accounts simply because I'd been working towards being a jedi and they'd taken away my favorite class. That doesn't mean I think there needs to be a "super" class earned at the end of the character development. I think there are other things that can be done. Have a set number of skill points at the beginning of the game then when those are used up a player can trade in massive amounts of xp to unlock another skill point with each skill point requiring even larger numbers of xp (and that doesn't count towards the amount of xp needed to actually learn the skill). Allowing players to trade xp for in-game currency, recipes, faction points, promotions, ingredients, or other items would work.
As far as things to do in the game, "dungeons" or bosses shouldn't be a part of a major story line or something that needs to be done at a certain point in character development. This would allow players to go back and revisit previous content or to explore content that they missed during the time they were developing their character. This would change the feeling that I have the same few dungeons or bosses that I'm repeating day after day to a "I haven't killed dragon x in a while, I think I'll try that today" or "I haven't been in cave xyz lately" or "my guild just had some new people join, I'd love to take them to see ... and watch their reactions."
Another thing I'd like to see in games is a dynamic quest system. Rather than having a given set of npcs always standing or wandering around a certain area with this big flashing sign over their head saying "I'm a quest giver!," have random npcs giving random quest and the only way to find them is to "talk" to them or pay attention to something being said by the npcs. For players who wanted to do quests, this would require taking time to do some exploring and a player would never know when they might find something they'd missed before. An npc that hadn't been in town in a month might be there today and he/she might have the same problem or a new problem.
If all I find myself at the point in a game where I'm running through the same content day after day for no other reason than to get "elite" gear which I'm wondering why I need since I just killed the most difficult thing in the game in order to get the gear then it truly is "end game" as in the game is over -- I've finished it.
pve: content hard enough to make beating it an accomplishment that not everyone can get. (i have the same opinion when i only have time to be casual or have enough time to be hardcore) I want raids that look epic on player inolvment, complexity of tasks, gear and skill checks, and a raid size that speaks "mmo" not "lol halo with swords"
pvp: people or guilds OWN areas until its taken from them. Those owned areas are run by the guilds that have them. The quests available are chosen by the guild (from an available list) those quests offer reqards to anyone who completes them (who is not flagged as an at war guild) NPC's in the area mine resources that provide those quest rewards (so enemy guilds can attack and kill the NPC's and disrupt the flow of equipment and supplies). The guild is INVESTED in defending and expanding its territory. Opposing guilds have a REAL desire to take over locations. Resources are spread throughout the vast world in an uneven pattern so each location has a disirable reason for having it. Trade and raiding will be encouraged if resources are not evenly spread.
you know.... meaningful reasons for playing where at the end of the day not every single raider/pvp'er looks or has accomplished the same thing
No such thing as end game. Give me a reason to keep earning xp after my character is completely developed (I use the word developed because I like like learning and improving skills over time but hate what having a level attached to a character does to the game). In SWG pre-cu and cu, I didn't really have that big of a desire to be a jedi but it became my answer to "what next?" once I had used up all my skill points on my tree for my combat toon. In NGE, I chose a jedi for one of my accounts simply because I'd been working towards being a jedi and they'd taken away my favorite class. That doesn't mean I think there needs to be a "super" class earned at the end of the character development. I think there are other things that can be done. Have a set number of skill points at the beginning of the game then when those are used up a player can trade in massive amounts of xp to unlock another skill point with each skill point requiring even larger numbers of xp (and that doesn't count towards the amount of xp needed to actually learn the skill). Allowing players to trade xp for in-game currency, recipes, faction points, promotions, ingredients, or other items would work.
As far as things to do in the game, "dungeons" or bosses shouldn't be a part of a major story line or something that needs to be done at a certain point in character development. This would allow players to go back and revisit previous content or to explore content that they missed during the time they were developing their character. This would change the feeling that I have the same few dungeons or bosses that I'm repeating day after day to a "I haven't killed dragon x in a while, I think I'll try that today" or "I haven't been in cave xyz lately" or "my guild just had some new people join, I'd love to take them to see ... and watch their reactions."
Another thing I'd like to see in games is a dynamic quest system. Rather than having a given set of npcs always standing or wandering around a certain area with this big flashing sign over their head saying "I'm a quest giver!," have random npcs giving random quest and the only way to find them is to "talk" to them or pay attention to something being said by the npcs. For players who wanted to do quests, this would require taking time to do some exploring and a player would never know when they might find something they'd missed before. An npc that hadn't been in town in a month might be there today and he/she might have the same problem or a new problem.
If all I find myself at the point in a game where I'm running through the same content day after day for no other reason than to get "elite" gear which I'm wondering why I need since I just killed the most difficult thing in the game in order to get the gear then it truly is "end game" as in the game is over -- I've finished it.
Good ideas here.
Re: separating dungeons from the major storyline could be tricky since people do sometimes like to visit dungeons as they are leveling. I always liked the idea of mixing higher and lower difficulty within the zone so that you can revisit areas to do more the more difficult stuff you couldn't do the first time around -- adds longevity as well. What if there were dungeons you could get to a certain point to as a lowbie, but then you knew you would have to come back to later when you were tougher?
Love the idea of removing the markers on quest givers. Make us *find* the adventure! Would love to see more serendipitous content sprinkled throughout the game. Remove all the signposts and let us actually explore. Maybe you might need to put 2 and 2 together to actually find where the quest would start. 2 parts of a map? An old poem? There are many more ways that involve tickling our brains that would make for a much more immersive experience.
I'd rather not see any endgame, I'd simply like more stuff to do.
An MMO should have a number of activities to master.
Imagine an MMO that has a full fledged trading card game built into it that constantly evolved.
The ability to own a house, decorate it with both practical and fluff itesm, expand it, maybe some day turn it into a town or city in the actual world rather than an instance.
Endless trophies, I don't mean the crap like achievements, I mean trophies. Randomly generated world bosses appear a couple of times a week. Massive or powerful creatures and beasts. With one person either getting the killing blow, doing the most damage or by a random luck of the draw ends up with the head of the beast or w/e for your trophy room in your house (Later on when you get a city or kingdom maybe you can open up a museum in honor of you displaying statues of the immense creatures you have slain etc.)
Pet battle system. Capture, raise and train all manner of beast. How you raise them determines a lot of their potential, then train them to reach their potential.
A racing leauge. Certified racing animals that can be raised, bought, traded, and trained.
Collection quests that offer unique armor, housing deco's, unique pets and companions, unique eggs for racing mounts and battle pets, etc. Museums want artifacts from ancient times, Libraries want books and scrolls you find, etc.
Give crafters a purpose, high level crafters can get hired by NPC's to supply their cities and kingdoms with weapons and armor, potions, foods, etc.
Currently most MMO's simply offer 1 thing, and everything ties into that one thing. Yes, they say "We have crafting, PvE and PvP" when the reality is all those things are taking you to the exact same goal. Level Cap and endgame were the exp drive ends but the gear grind continues. There needs to be true alternative progression paths. I can level up my adventuring skills or I can work on getting better cards for my Collectible card game deck. I can go huntins creatures to kill or I can go look for eggs and creatures to raise and train.
Thats what I want instead of endgame, more content and content options, it is all I need. I can't stand endgame raiding, such an asinine system.
Other than that, I wouldn't even mind if the game just ended.
Ending is also a good choice. No reason why games need to go on forever. Just wait for the sequal, or play another game. It is not like there is a shortage.
Comments
What I would like for end game content is scaleable content that takes away the need for end game content because all content is viable 100% of the time no matter what your level, gear or skills are.
It CAN be done, it was spoken about 3 years ago at the GDC with a full explaination on how a single dungeon can be made to stay as viable play from level 1 to max level, for one player, 5, 10, 20 or even 40 man raids and adjust to even the gear people are wearing and even adjust to the class/es of players in the group.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
I'm enjoying the scenarios in MoP. It's like doing the 5-man dungeons, but without the hassel of finding a tank & healer so you can just get in and play insead of waiting for the right group mix.
People like to see an end of the holy trinity, so have the encounter either provide or not require one.
Personally, I enjoy the standard end game stuff, when it's paced right.
Release a game with some large-group encounters that tell a story. Have new content added over the next year or two, which further adds to the story, culminating with some kind of closure.
Release an expansion which starts a new story or chapter, and do it all over again.
As long as the updates are fairly regular (every 3 to 4 months is great), and the gameplay itself is both complex and fun, this cycle works great. Some of my best gaming memories come from raiding in WoW with my guild, spending time on our forums discussing new strategies and helping newer players catch up. Making plans for the weekly raids and the satisfaction of finally beating the content that you've been working on for the last few weeks or months.
There's a real effort>reward system with that, if it's done right. That's not to say the whole end-game needs to be like that. It's nice to have other stuff to do as well, like explore or RP or PVP or whatever. Themeparks get a lot of hate around here, but the the basic idea is actually quite fun, and doesn't have to be at all restricted to just "themepark rides."
The reason so many themeparks failed is simply because they brought nothing new to the table (wow clone), had buggy gameplay, or simply never received the regular updates needed between expansions. I think a lot of them thought they could cheat the system by making PvP the end-game focus, but it really just never pans out.
Sandbox games have pleanty of failures as well, but what happens is they finally get released and players discount them as not being sandbox enough because it doesn't meet up to their lofty expectations.
You make me like charity
No such thing as end game. Give me a reason to keep earning xp after my character is completely developed (I use the word developed because I like like learning and improving skills over time but hate what having a level attached to a character does to the game). In SWG pre-cu and cu, I didn't really have that big of a desire to be a jedi but it became my answer to "what next?" once I had used up all my skill points on my tree for my combat toon. In NGE, I chose a jedi for one of my accounts simply because I'd been working towards being a jedi and they'd taken away my favorite class. That doesn't mean I think there needs to be a "super" class earned at the end of the character development. I think there are other things that can be done. Have a set number of skill points at the beginning of the game then when those are used up a player can trade in massive amounts of xp to unlock another skill point with each skill point requiring even larger numbers of xp (and that doesn't count towards the amount of xp needed to actually learn the skill). Allowing players to trade xp for in-game currency, recipes, faction points, promotions, ingredients, or other items would work.
As far as things to do in the game, "dungeons" or bosses shouldn't be a part of a major story line or something that needs to be done at a certain point in character development. This would allow players to go back and revisit previous content or to explore content that they missed during the time they were developing their character. This would change the feeling that I have the same few dungeons or bosses that I'm repeating day after day to a "I haven't killed dragon x in a while, I think I'll try that today" or "I haven't been in cave xyz lately" or "my guild just had some new people join, I'd love to take them to see ... and watch their reactions."
Another thing I'd like to see in games is a dynamic quest system. Rather than having a given set of npcs always standing or wandering around a certain area with this big flashing sign over their head saying "I'm a quest giver!," have random npcs giving random quest and the only way to find them is to "talk" to them or pay attention to something being said by the npcs. For players who wanted to do quests, this would require taking time to do some exploring and a player would never know when they might find something they'd missed before. An npc that hadn't been in town in a month might be there today and he/she might have the same problem or a new problem.
If all I find myself at the point in a game where I'm running through the same content day after day for no other reason than to get "elite" gear which I'm wondering why I need since I just killed the most difficult thing in the game in order to get the gear then it truly is "end game" as in the game is over -- I've finished it.
pve: content hard enough to make beating it an accomplishment that not everyone can get. (i have the same opinion when i only have time to be casual or have enough time to be hardcore) I want raids that look epic on player inolvment, complexity of tasks, gear and skill checks, and a raid size that speaks "mmo" not "lol halo with swords"
pvp: people or guilds OWN areas until its taken from them. Those owned areas are run by the guilds that have them. The quests available are chosen by the guild (from an available list) those quests offer reqards to anyone who completes them (who is not flagged as an at war guild) NPC's in the area mine resources that provide those quest rewards (so enemy guilds can attack and kill the NPC's and disrupt the flow of equipment and supplies). The guild is INVESTED in defending and expanding its territory. Opposing guilds have a REAL desire to take over locations. Resources are spread throughout the vast world in an uneven pattern so each location has a disirable reason for having it. Trade and raiding will be encouraged if resources are not evenly spread.
you know.... meaningful reasons for playing where at the end of the day not every single raider/pvp'er looks or has accomplished the same thing
Good ideas here.
Re: separating dungeons from the major storyline could be tricky since people do sometimes like to visit dungeons as they are leveling. I always liked the idea of mixing higher and lower difficulty within the zone so that you can revisit areas to do more the more difficult stuff you couldn't do the first time around -- adds longevity as well. What if there were dungeons you could get to a certain point to as a lowbie, but then you knew you would have to come back to later when you were tougher?
Love the idea of removing the markers on quest givers. Make us *find* the adventure! Would love to see more serendipitous content sprinkled throughout the game. Remove all the signposts and let us actually explore. Maybe you might need to put 2 and 2 together to actually find where the quest would start. 2 parts of a map? An old poem? There are many more ways that involve tickling our brains that would make for a much more immersive experience.
I'd rather not see any endgame, I'd simply like more stuff to do.
An MMO should have a number of activities to master.
Imagine an MMO that has a full fledged trading card game built into it that constantly evolved.
The ability to own a house, decorate it with both practical and fluff itesm, expand it, maybe some day turn it into a town or city in the actual world rather than an instance.
Endless trophies, I don't mean the crap like achievements, I mean trophies. Randomly generated world bosses appear a couple of times a week. Massive or powerful creatures and beasts. With one person either getting the killing blow, doing the most damage or by a random luck of the draw ends up with the head of the beast or w/e for your trophy room in your house (Later on when you get a city or kingdom maybe you can open up a museum in honor of you displaying statues of the immense creatures you have slain etc.)
Pet battle system. Capture, raise and train all manner of beast. How you raise them determines a lot of their potential, then train them to reach their potential.
A racing leauge. Certified racing animals that can be raised, bought, traded, and trained.
Collection quests that offer unique armor, housing deco's, unique pets and companions, unique eggs for racing mounts and battle pets, etc. Museums want artifacts from ancient times, Libraries want books and scrolls you find, etc.
Give crafters a purpose, high level crafters can get hired by NPC's to supply their cities and kingdoms with weapons and armor, potions, foods, etc.
Currently most MMO's simply offer 1 thing, and everything ties into that one thing. Yes, they say "We have crafting, PvE and PvP" when the reality is all those things are taking you to the exact same goal. Level Cap and endgame were the exp drive ends but the gear grind continues. There needs to be true alternative progression paths. I can level up my adventuring skills or I can work on getting better cards for my Collectible card game deck. I can go huntins creatures to kill or I can go look for eggs and creatures to raise and train.
Thats what I want instead of endgame, more content and content options, it is all I need. I can't stand endgame raiding, such an asinine system.
PvP.
Other than that, I wouldn't even mind if the game just ended.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Ending is also a good choice. No reason why games need to go on forever. Just wait for the sequal, or play another game. It is not like there is a shortage.