WoW and GW2 has similar high level game design actually.
WoW lets players go out there and get the titles / achivements / pets / different looking loot (transmog) etc
GW2 lets players go out there and get the titles / achivements / pets / different looking loot (transmute) etc
The difference is that WoW doesn't have level scaling while GW2 does.
Whether you personally like the level scaling or not is subjective.
What is factual though is that level scaling doesn't appeal to everyone, thus less players will be out in the GW2 world doing the above things.
Thus, you have the 20-70 wasteland issue.
I think ANet is backed into a corner, either they accept the 'Henchmen' idea (which they said they didn't like) or they roll-back on their core game design of level scaling.
Second option will have such a large impact I really don't see ANet doing it unless it is done in an expansion and even then, I have my doubts.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
I don't really want to go through this massive thread, but I noticed that a lot of people don't seem to understand that karma rewards do scale up as you level even when downleveled, just like gold and EXP. Just like gold and EXP though, doing content downleveled will still give less karma than doing it at level. So doing a level 1 dynamic event at level 80 will reward you with much more karma (at least 10X if I recall) than it would reward a level 1, but not as much as doing a level 80 DE at 80 (it's somewhere a little over 4X as little if I remember correctly).
Considering how much faster you blow through DEs due to gear, traits, and unlocked utility skills you'll find that doing DEs downleveled quickly is actually pretty rewarding, but not as much as Orr because there are far more frequent dynamic events and longer chains that you don't have to wait in between for. The wasteland problem is more with the way Orr is designed in my opinion than the rewards being too low when downleveled.
Keep in mind that people will farm events that are up most frequent, contain long chains of multiple events, and can be completed quickly in large groups. This is why bots farm centaur DEs out in the Human 2nd Starter Zone and Orr. The problem is in most areas events don't spawn as frequently, may take a while to do (such as long escort quests or champion/legendary MOBs with loads of health), or just don't contain enough of a chain of events to be consistent enough farming.
Besides since dungeon rewards have been increased and fractals were added, 70-80 is a wasteland too. Aside from karma for legendaries there isn't much incentive to go out and farm Orr when you can run AC or CoF EXP for 10 hours and come out with a full set of exotic gear and massive amounts of gold. Honestly with the new daily, monthly, and dungeons rewarding karma if you farm at a normal pace there isn't much incentive to do any DEs out in the world at all considering by the time you farm enough gold and materials to make your legendary you should have more than enough karma from these sources.
All MMOs are top heavy. I don't see your point. It's not because of Anet's game design that the 20-70 zones are barren. I love their scaling system because I am a completionish and love to see everything in an MMO. In WoW I completed all the quests int the game (loremaster) for both factions. A lot of those were completed when I was max level (60/70/80) and that made the quests ultra easy. I would have killed for a feature like this in WOW.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Well, to be honest, the DEs in the less populated zones don't seem to pop all that often, at least when I last played a month ago. Additionally, many don't seem to scale very well, at least in some lower level zones, so sometimes even though you get the DE to pop, you can't effectively solo it (when there's truly no one else around).
The hearts do help to some degree, but it's pretty common for me to fill a heart without seeing one of the repeating events happen. So I get my heart filled, get some karma and move on to the next heart and hopefully the event and other players are there.
Herein lies the problem with the psuedo themepark design. There doesn't seem to be enough going on, but there's also no quest hubs for you to expedite your leveling process. Some areas are a bit more congested with mobs which hampers exploration when solo (to a degree). This is also an issue with quest based themeparks, but you're directed a bit better.
What the game needs is a better random loot system (like the asheron's call series), and more of a reason to want to go out and grind mobs endlessly. Like instead of trophies only dropping randomly, add like a butchering skill where you can "skin" your kills for additional chances for them to drop their trophies.
Additionally, the karma vendors need a serious update for all zones. Create reasons for level 80's to want to go into any zone in the game. Unique armor and weapon skins, chances at unique loot in each zone, etc.
I don't know about you guys, but once I out-leveled a zone I have never been back. The level scaling makes no difference whatsoever. They really need to take it out of the game. I would rather power level guildmates who choose to do so by steamrolling lower level zones than going back and replaying the content just for fun.
Actual loot drops and XP are suitable to your actual level. Karma, I suspect, is hard coded at a set amount. You can still spend taht karma at any karma vendor though, thus still getting level appropriate gear for it.
Sure, but why would someone want to go to a lower level zone only to get a fraction of the Karma that they could get from a higher level zone. On top of that, they're down-leveled so the challenge and time investment is still there yet the reward is much less.
Incorrect. Even with downleveling, you're doing more damage than you were when you were actually that level due to gear and traits. Downleveled to a level 30 zone I still kill far faster and more effectively than I do in a native 80 zone where it takes some effort, and I can actually get 70+ gear from it. If anyone, lower level zones should be more populated than the higher ones.
The problem is not GW2's or Anet's, it's the fault of the players. It doesn't matter that rewards are fairly equalized, players 'perceive' lower level zones AS lower level and thus irrelevant, so they avoid it. This is a habit of the players that they're going to have to break themselves, if anything Anet's only fault is assuming that players would be better than that.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
I don't know about you guys, but once I out-leveled a zone I have never been back. The level scaling makes no difference whatsoever. They really need to take it out of the game. I would rather power level guildmates who choose to do so by steamrolling lower level zones than going back and replaying the content just for fun.
Oh, I go back all the time when my kids hop in there to play. I'll bring my mesmer down to help them out with events/bosses or the like. The beauty is that I actually have to contribute constructively as opposed to one-shotting everything in my path. I still wind up with level 80 loot of varying degrees which usually winds up at the vendor, so it's a decent little bit of pocket change to help pay for some of those armor repairs from other things.
Level scaling keeps zones competitive. In archaic games like WoW, people simply don't go back to the lower level zones because they out-levelled them rendering them completely useless. In GW2 the zone still can give you a challenge and you're rewarded based on your level, not the level of the zone.
Invisible walls? I don't recall running into any at all. At least, there's nothing invisible about a massive mountain range, for example. The shape of the zones is beautifully hidden by the artistry of them. It feels like a breathing world, not a static box.
The only place I've seen the "state of fail" issue with DEs is Orr, the end area. That problem lasts about as long as it takes to annouce that an event is up to change that. People arrive, the push is on and before you know it you're checking out exotics from the vendor.
Was about to ask. :-))
Level scaling is incredible good feature. If not for other it leaves much more to do at any level. I love questing. I dislike a lot in wow that I'm to fast to high level for great quests. Does not make any sense doing quests level i.e. 10 with alt level. 20 or 90 for that matter. Not in gw2 and love it. Ok, minus is one can not just walk over low areas but I'm not bothered.
About invisible walls however I have find few areas that were not supposed it looks for any1 to go there ... but is far from being big problem, minor annoyance.
About DE maybe they should as zone scaling also scale mobs so even very small group can finish but i guess that is harder to do as many can join later. Happened many times I wanted desperately that part of game .... was back after 5 mins and already a lot of players around.
But ... hey ... there will never be perfect game. :-)
I don't know about you guys, but once I out-leveled a zone I have never been back. The level scaling makes no difference whatsoever. They really need to take it out of the game. I would rather power level guildmates who choose to do so by steamrolling lower level zones than going back and replaying the content just for fun.
Oh, I go back all the time when my kids hop in there to play. I'll bring my mesmer down to help them out with events/bosses or the like. The beauty is that I actually have to contribute constructively as opposed to one-shotting everything in my path. I still wind up with level 80 loot of varying degrees which usually winds up at the vendor, so it's a decent little bit of pocket change to help pay for some of those armor repairs from other things.
Thats cool. The one problem I have with the game though is that people don't really every ask for lvl 80 players to come down and help them out. We have a lot of sub 50 guys in our guild, but I never see any of them asking for us 80's to come help them anywhere. Thats one thing I miss with this MMO.
A few days ago (I don't play GW2 that much anymore) I was on a level 36 character and started a DE that evolved into a champ fight at the end. By the time we were fighting the champ about 6 players had shown up so the mechanics worked perfectly. Higher level players coming down to lower levels still have an advantage I have noticed...not much, but it is there.
Lol I'd have to say no. 'Invisible walls everywhere' should be the hint there. GW2 is the only MMOG where I've yet to encounter an invisible wall even once (zone boarders not counted of course).
That said, there is a serious problem with wasteland zones. Do note however that this doesn't mean they are 100% empty, I still have zero problem finding a group to do Meta-Events in almost every zone.
Anet has actively stated as well that this issue will be dealt with in the 'massive' Feb/March content patch.
I levelled one char from 1-80 entirely in the starter zone for the humans a few months back. Havent logged in after the whole fractals thing though... I prolly should but too lazy to o.o
I think that pushed majority of the population to the fractals since thats what happened to my guild forums when they started fractals.
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In a reddit AMA, ANet's devs accepted the 20-70 wasteland issue as valid and said 'we'll have to figure something out'.
An MMO that is top / bottom level heavy isn't anything new but compared to other MMOs, apparently this issue was more extreme.
It also doesn't help that most DE will constantly fail if there isn't enough players involved which means most players can't progress and see the next one. Since DE was suppose to be GW2's most hyped feature (as an aside, remember the 'zones will change!' lie? ANet, what happened? T_T), having it constantly in a failed state highlights this issue even more.
So what are the major design decisions that made this issue into such a big one?
1. Level scaling. Having a constant challenge by scaling is a game design decision that is mostly in racing games now and for good reason. If you are at level cap in WoW or other MMOs, going to any area that isn't the 'high end' doesn't really concern you. You will ROFL-STOMP everything in that zone so there is little barrier on actually doing it.
Not in GW2. Whether you like this design or not, it is manifesting in GW2 with the 'wasteland' problem as there will be less players willing to go to a zone if there are little rewards for a lot of risk.
2. Too many mobs / areas have too many invisible walls
The GW2 map shows a game world that screams 'arificial'. There are no 'curves' or anything. Just straight up rectangles filled with invisible walls.
The mob intensity makes it really difficult to travel from point A to point B and so people are less willing to do it.
3. Self-recursive problem
The problem itself of 'less people in the world' causes issue 2 to become even worse which in turn causes more people to avoid going out into the world.
I said 'curious' cause I don't think they were thoughtout that well and now ANet is trying to figure something out.
They mentioned that they don't like the henchmen idea but I don't see a solution without redesigning their game which is probably the last resort. I don't mind having henchmen cause they worked great in GW1 so not sure why the resistance now.
Some serious lack of logic in the above post. Also have to echo the impression that the poster hasn't actually played the game.
1. Level Scaling
Level Scaling is not part of the problem for relatively low map populations in 20-70 zones. It's part of the solution. Arenanet just needs to provide more game play reasons to revisit zones. According to the hints given on the January-March updates this will be a renewed development focus. We don't know exactly what they have in mind, but if they can make it more fun to return to lower level zones, more people will play there. The level scaling mechanic is needed. (Loot scaling works ok now, but probably should be tuned to further narrow the gap between playing in an at level zone and a lower level one).
2. Invisible Walls/Mob Density.
Ummm..... this is the bullet point that hints most strongly towards the OP not being a player of the game. The absolute limits of each game zone may fit with in a large box, but the bounderies you must travel with in are almost always delineated via organic, irregular terrain, rather than a linear invisible wall. There are walls in a few places where terrain design allowed for unintended access to certain areas, but these are very rare.
Unless you are trying to run through a zone more than 5 levels above your character level, there is no problem "threading the needle" between mobs and avoiding those that do aggro on you. Once again, obviously not a player of the game.
3. Feedback loop.
There isn't one. No player with a level 80 character avoids level 20-70 zones for any of the reasons given by the OP, so, no, it's not a compounding problem.
*
The game world is massive and the population curve is spread out more evenly. World PvE, unfortunately, is much less rewarding than Dungeon play, with Fractals of the Mist worsening the issue. If world PvE across all level ranges, including via level scaling, becomes more rewarding in coin, loot and FUN, a larger ortion of level 80s will be found out in the game world, rather than doing FotM all day.
Some serious lack of logic in the above post. Also have to echo the impression that the poster hasn't actually played the game.
1. Level Scaling
Level Scaling is not part of the problem for relatively low map populations in 20-70 zones. It's part of the solution. Arenanet just needs to provide more game play reasons to revisit zones.
/snip
2. Invisible Walls/Mob Density.
Ummm..... this is the bullet point that hints most strongly towards the OP not being a player of the game.
/snip
Unless you are trying to run through a zone more than 5 levels above your character level, there is no problem "threading the needle" between mobs and avoiding those that do aggro on you. Once again, obviously not a player of the game.
3. Feedback loop.
There isn't one. No player with a level 80 character avoids level 20-70 zones for any of the reasons given by the OP, so, no, it's not a compounding problem.
This post talks 'logic' so lets logically break it down shall we?
1. Level scaling issue.
My position is that making it harder will bring LESS players out into the world.
This post says making it harder we bring MORE players out into the world.
Either logic works I guess except my logic has real life examples; just look at the million posts that cries about the 'casual ruining our game!' posts.
2. I do play but that isn't evidence or logical of anything. A so-called logical post doesn't go 'well you don't play so your opinion is invalid!' without actual evidence.
This post talks 'logic' so lets logically break it down shall we?
1. Level scaling issue.
My position is that making it harder will bring LESS players out into the world.
This post says making it harder we bring MORE players out into the world.
Either logic works I guess except my logic has real life examples; just look at the million posts that cries about the 'casual ruining our game!' posts.
I play in the 20 to 70 zones every single day. I've never been alone or in a wasteland. Another real life example for you.
2. I do play but that isn't evidence or logical of anything. A so-called logical post doesn't go 'well you don't play so your opinion is invalid!' without actual evidence.
Zones are rectangle and it only allows you to exit / enter through a fixed instance portal.
If you have any evidence that the above is wrong, then yes, I haven't played GW2 as I am clearly playing some other game.
So what you are saying is that because the border of the map is a rectangle, this causes people to not want to go to 20 - 70 zones? Is there a fear of rectangles that I didn't know about?
Threading the needle? You have gone to Orr right? RIGHT?!
So because you have difficulty "threading the needle" in a level 80 zone, this cause people to not play in 20-70 zones?
3.Well, this is easy to rebuttal. I have an 80 Ele that avoids 20-70 area. Guess there goes your 'logic' of 'No 80 does X!'
[mod edit]
Thanks for your logical input.
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
It also doesn't help that most DE will constantly fail if there isn't enough players involved which means most players can't progress and see the next one. Since DE was suppose to be GW2's most hyped feature (as an aside, remember the 'zones will change!' lie? ANet, what happened? T_T), having it constantly in a failed state highlights this issue even more.
Several pages into this already, but this has been false time and time again for me. I have leveled four characters to 80. I have constantly been able to succeed at DEs and group DEs solo. For the major boss DEs, there have always been a handful or more of players to come in and fight alongside. The bast majority of DEs will not constantly fail. Only a very small fraction of them will, and most of those are in Orr, and players group up every now and then to clear those ones (like the temples).
Even when I bring a lvl 80 to these "dead zones", I see plenty of others characters participating in DEs. I guess these zones are considere wastelands because the screen is not FULL OF PLAYERS and spells like in the first couple of weeks. I much prefer less than 10 people for every DE than the initial rush of 30+
On my server, Tarnished Coast, I get a feeling that the "wastelands" aren't as lifeless as people make them out to be...
It also doesn't help that most DE will constantly fail if there isn't enough players involved which means most players can't progress and see the next one. Since DE was suppose to be GW2's most hyped feature (as an aside, remember the 'zones will change!' lie? ANet, what happened? T_T), having it constantly in a failed state highlights this issue even more.
Several pages into this already, but this has been false time and time again for me. I have leveled four characters to 80. I have constantly been able to succeed at DEs and group DEs solo. For the major boss DEs, there have always been a handful or more of players to come in and fight alongside. The bast majority of DEs will not constantly fail. Only a very small fraction of them will, and most of those are in Orr, and players group up every now and then to clear those ones (like the temples).
Even when I bring a lvl 80 to these "dead zones", I see plenty of others characters participating in DEs. I guess these zones are considere wastelands because the screen is not FULL OF PLAYERS and spells like in the first couple of weeks. I much prefer less than 10 people for every DE than the initial rush of 30+
On my server, Tarnished Coast, I get a feeling that the "wastelands" aren't as lifeless as people make them out to be...
On Gandara same thing, theres enough people in each zone to do DEs, but its not a crowd. You can level comfortably. And if i want quick 5 events for daily guess where ill go - to some of lower level zones that i know have lots of players and events trigger all the time.
And Gandara is somewhat medium in population.
But yah, fractals hurt open world play everywhere, not just in 20-70 area (more in 80 areas), also regular dungeons, putting best stuff in there makes and nerfed everything in open world, people doing just fractals. It was a mistake and one that ANet acknowledged and is working to sort it out. Hopefully WvW will get some love gear wise too.
Some serious lack of logic in the above post. Also have to echo the impression that the poster hasn't actually played the game.
1. Level Scaling
Level Scaling is not part of the problem for relatively low map populations in 20-70 zones. It's part of the solution. Arenanet just needs to provide more game play reasons to revisit zones.
/snip
2. Invisible Walls/Mob Density.
Ummm..... this is the bullet point that hints most strongly towards the OP not being a player of the game.
/snip
Unless you are trying to run through a zone more than 5 levels above your character level, there is no problem "threading the needle" between mobs and avoiding those that do aggro on you. Once again, obviously not a player of the game.
3. Feedback loop.
There isn't one. No player with a level 80 character avoids level 20-70 zones for any of the reasons given by the OP, so, no, it's not a compounding problem.
This post talks 'logic' so lets logically break it down shall we?
1. Level scaling issue.
My position is that making it harder will bring LESS players out into the world.
This post says making it harder we bring MORE players out into the world.
Either logic works I guess except my logic has real life examples; just look at the million posts that cries about the 'casual ruining our game!' posts.
2. I do play but that isn't evidence or logical of anything. A so-called logical post doesn't go 'well you don't play so your opinion is invalid!' without actual evidence.
1. The problem is Dungeon Play is much harder than the PvE World, especially non level 70+ areas, making your argument void.
2. One can divide a globe into rectangles. There is no doubt you can travel between areas only by specific paths, but again that is something normal.
Rivers, mountains, sea, canyons, deserts, swamps,are all geographic features that divide our world.
Sure, one could say the designers clearly made the world in a way that doesn't have huge plains covering multiple zones.
The only way for one to see that zones are rectangular is by looking at the map because if you just wander around, you won't see anything strange.
Did you really just compare group instances with world PVE content?
/facepalm
Trying to say it isn't an 'issue' when ANet has accepted the issue as fact, is probably not going to work that well.
Players either are playing PvP, much harder than the open world, Dungeons, much harder that the open world, WvW a different beast than open world.
You say that the culprit was the downlevelling system, which makes the world harder and so people play it less.
"1. Level scaling issue.
My position is that making it harder will bring LESS players out into the world.
This post says making it harder we bring MORE players out into the world."
That is a false argument because the cause of less players in the world in not the difficulty or not. Dungeosn are harder and players are there.
Just look at games where the best loot is dengoens and raids - empty worlds.
People play less of the open world not because it is harder or there is a downlevelling system but because it is less rewarding than the dungeons.
It is easy,people bitched that Dungeons weren't rewarding enough, so they flocked Orr and the easier dungeons.
Anet boost dungeon rewards > people leave Orr and flock in to them.
Simple.
Also that big admission of the problem is:
"This ties back to what i was saying earlier in which Ascended Gear and really any progression related reward mechanism that impacts the world globally should be introduced (Where possible) across the game and inside the different type of player's activities specifically. Allowing players to continue doing the things they love without focusing player migration to a specific part of the world. The introduction of the Ascended reward in one part of the game was a mistake and one that i don't want to make again. Soon Ascended Gear will adhere to these rules."
Too many mobs? Rift has too many mobs packed in one area and you cant roam freely without fighting which is annoying
I think GW2 has no problems with the amount of mobs. But thats just me.
Count me in. :-) I left first time Rift exactly because not enough of players to close rifts, this has allower uncontrolled invasions all over ... npcs in quest hubs killed in secs ... sometimes could not play for days, whenever logged in no players around or at least not enough. Like much more Gw2 in this (but also other) sense.
This post talks 'logic' so lets logically break it down shall we?
1. Level scaling issue.
My position is that making it harder will bring LESS players out into the world.
This post says making it harder we bring MORE players out into the world.
Either logic works I guess except my logic has real life examples; just look at the million posts that cries about the 'casual ruining our game!' posts.
2. I do play but that isn't evidence or logical of anything. A so-called logical post doesn't go 'well you don't play so your opinion is invalid!' without actual evidence.
Zones are rectangle and it only allows you to exit / enter through a fixed instance portal.
If you have any evidence that the above is wrong, then yes, I haven't played GW2 as I am clearly playing some other game.
Threading the needle? You have gone to Orr right? RIGHT?!
3.Well, this is easy to rebuttal. I have an 80 Ele that avoids 20-70 area. Guess there goes your 'logic' of 'No 80 does X!'
For a so-called 'logical' posts, I see little (actually NONE) logic.
Nit pick alert. They're not "fixed instance portals". There are zones, not instances, which are always running and persistant as opposed to instances which are private copies of an area.
The zones may be rectangular on the map, but they don't feel that way in the game.
Comments
WoW and GW2 has similar high level game design actually.
WoW lets players go out there and get the titles / achivements / pets / different looking loot (transmog) etc
GW2 lets players go out there and get the titles / achivements / pets / different looking loot (transmute) etc
The difference is that WoW doesn't have level scaling while GW2 does.
Whether you personally like the level scaling or not is subjective.
What is factual though is that level scaling doesn't appeal to everyone, thus less players will be out in the GW2 world doing the above things.
Thus, you have the 20-70 wasteland issue.
I think ANet is backed into a corner, either they accept the 'Henchmen' idea (which they said they didn't like) or they roll-back on their core game design of level scaling.
Second option will have such a large impact I really don't see ANet doing it unless it is done in an expansion and even then, I have my doubts.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
I don't really want to go through this massive thread, but I noticed that a lot of people don't seem to understand that karma rewards do scale up as you level even when downleveled, just like gold and EXP. Just like gold and EXP though, doing content downleveled will still give less karma than doing it at level. So doing a level 1 dynamic event at level 80 will reward you with much more karma (at least 10X if I recall) than it would reward a level 1, but not as much as doing a level 80 DE at 80 (it's somewhere a little over 4X as little if I remember correctly).
Considering how much faster you blow through DEs due to gear, traits, and unlocked utility skills you'll find that doing DEs downleveled quickly is actually pretty rewarding, but not as much as Orr because there are far more frequent dynamic events and longer chains that you don't have to wait in between for. The wasteland problem is more with the way Orr is designed in my opinion than the rewards being too low when downleveled.
Keep in mind that people will farm events that are up most frequent, contain long chains of multiple events, and can be completed quickly in large groups. This is why bots farm centaur DEs out in the Human 2nd Starter Zone and Orr. The problem is in most areas events don't spawn as frequently, may take a while to do (such as long escort quests or champion/legendary MOBs with loads of health), or just don't contain enough of a chain of events to be consistent enough farming.
Besides since dungeon rewards have been increased and fractals were added, 70-80 is a wasteland too. Aside from karma for legendaries there isn't much incentive to go out and farm Orr when you can run AC or CoF EXP for 10 hours and come out with a full set of exotic gear and massive amounts of gold. Honestly with the new daily, monthly, and dungeons rewarding karma if you farm at a normal pace there isn't much incentive to do any DEs out in the world at all considering by the time you farm enough gold and materials to make your legendary you should have more than enough karma from these sources.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Well, to be honest, the DEs in the less populated zones don't seem to pop all that often, at least when I last played a month ago. Additionally, many don't seem to scale very well, at least in some lower level zones, so sometimes even though you get the DE to pop, you can't effectively solo it (when there's truly no one else around).
The hearts do help to some degree, but it's pretty common for me to fill a heart without seeing one of the repeating events happen. So I get my heart filled, get some karma and move on to the next heart and hopefully the event and other players are there.
Herein lies the problem with the psuedo themepark design. There doesn't seem to be enough going on, but there's also no quest hubs for you to expedite your leveling process. Some areas are a bit more congested with mobs which hampers exploration when solo (to a degree). This is also an issue with quest based themeparks, but you're directed a bit better.
What the game needs is a better random loot system (like the asheron's call series), and more of a reason to want to go out and grind mobs endlessly. Like instead of trophies only dropping randomly, add like a butchering skill where you can "skin" your kills for additional chances for them to drop their trophies.
Additionally, the karma vendors need a serious update for all zones. Create reasons for level 80's to want to go into any zone in the game. Unique armor and weapon skins, chances at unique loot in each zone, etc.
I don't know about you guys, but once I out-leveled a zone I have never been back. The level scaling makes no difference whatsoever. They really need to take it out of the game. I would rather power level guildmates who choose to do so by steamrolling lower level zones than going back and replaying the content just for fun.
Incorrect. Even with downleveling, you're doing more damage than you were when you were actually that level due to gear and traits. Downleveled to a level 30 zone I still kill far faster and more effectively than I do in a native 80 zone where it takes some effort, and I can actually get 70+ gear from it. If anyone, lower level zones should be more populated than the higher ones.
The problem is not GW2's or Anet's, it's the fault of the players. It doesn't matter that rewards are fairly equalized, players 'perceive' lower level zones AS lower level and thus irrelevant, so they avoid it. This is a habit of the players that they're going to have to break themselves, if anything Anet's only fault is assuming that players would be better than that.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
Oh, I go back all the time when my kids hop in there to play. I'll bring my mesmer down to help them out with events/bosses or the like. The beauty is that I actually have to contribute constructively as opposed to one-shotting everything in my path. I still wind up with level 80 loot of varying degrees which usually winds up at the vendor, so it's a decent little bit of pocket change to help pay for some of those armor repairs from other things.
Oderint, dum metuant.
Was about to ask. :-))
Level scaling is incredible good feature. If not for other it leaves much more to do at any level. I love questing. I dislike a lot in wow that I'm to fast to high level for great quests. Does not make any sense doing quests level i.e. 10 with alt level. 20 or 90 for that matter. Not in gw2 and love it. Ok, minus is one can not just walk over low areas but I'm not bothered.
About invisible walls however I have find few areas that were not supposed it looks for any1 to go there ... but is far from being big problem, minor annoyance.
About DE maybe they should as zone scaling also scale mobs so even very small group can finish but i guess that is harder to do as many can join later. Happened many times I wanted desperately that part of game .... was back after 5 mins and already a lot of players around.
But ... hey ... there will never be perfect game. :-)
So far my list is wow/swtor and now gw2.
Thats cool. The one problem I have with the game though is that people don't really every ask for lvl 80 players to come down and help them out. We have a lot of sub 50 guys in our guild, but I never see any of them asking for us 80's to come help them anywhere. Thats one thing I miss with this MMO.
Too many mobs? Rift has too many mobs packed in one area and you cant roam freely without fighting which is annoying
I think GW2 has no problems with the amount of mobs. But thats just me.
It does in Orr - which is a real hassle.
Lol I'd have to say no. 'Invisible walls everywhere' should be the hint there. GW2 is the only MMOG where I've yet to encounter an invisible wall even once (zone boarders not counted of course).
That said, there is a serious problem with wasteland zones. Do note however that this doesn't mean they are 100% empty, I still have zero problem finding a group to do Meta-Events in almost every zone.
Anet has actively stated as well that this issue will be dealt with in the 'massive' Feb/March content patch.
I levelled one char from 1-80 entirely in the starter zone for the humans a few months back. Havent logged in after the whole fractals thing though... I prolly should but too lazy to o.o
I think that pushed majority of the population to the fractals since thats what happened to my guild forums when they started fractals.
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Some serious lack of logic in the above post. Also have to echo the impression that the poster hasn't actually played the game.
1. Level Scaling
Level Scaling is not part of the problem for relatively low map populations in 20-70 zones. It's part of the solution. Arenanet just needs to provide more game play reasons to revisit zones. According to the hints given on the January-March updates this will be a renewed development focus. We don't know exactly what they have in mind, but if they can make it more fun to return to lower level zones, more people will play there. The level scaling mechanic is needed. (Loot scaling works ok now, but probably should be tuned to further narrow the gap between playing in an at level zone and a lower level one).
2. Invisible Walls/Mob Density.
Ummm..... this is the bullet point that hints most strongly towards the OP not being a player of the game. The absolute limits of each game zone may fit with in a large box, but the bounderies you must travel with in are almost always delineated via organic, irregular terrain, rather than a linear invisible wall. There are walls in a few places where terrain design allowed for unintended access to certain areas, but these are very rare.
Unless you are trying to run through a zone more than 5 levels above your character level, there is no problem "threading the needle" between mobs and avoiding those that do aggro on you. Once again, obviously not a player of the game.
3. Feedback loop.
There isn't one. No player with a level 80 character avoids level 20-70 zones for any of the reasons given by the OP, so, no, it's not a compounding problem.
*
The game world is massive and the population curve is spread out more evenly. World PvE, unfortunately, is much less rewarding than Dungeon play, with Fractals of the Mist worsening the issue. If world PvE across all level ranges, including via level scaling, becomes more rewarding in coin, loot and FUN, a larger ortion of level 80s will be found out in the game world, rather than doing FotM all day.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
This post talks 'logic' so lets logically break it down shall we?
1. Level scaling issue.
My position is that making it harder will bring LESS players out into the world.
This post says making it harder we bring MORE players out into the world.
Either logic works I guess except my logic has real life examples; just look at the million posts that cries about the 'casual ruining our game!' posts.
2. I do play but that isn't evidence or logical of anything. A so-called logical post doesn't go 'well you don't play so your opinion is invalid!' without actual evidence.
My evidence is the actual GW2 Map; http://luna-atra.com/g2c/img/map/world_map.jpg
Zones are rectangle and it only allows you to exit / enter through a fixed instance portal.
If you have any evidence that the above is wrong, then yes, I haven't played GW2 as I am clearly playing some other game.
Threading the needle? You have gone to Orr right? RIGHT?!
3.Well, this is easy to rebuttal. I have an 80 Ele that avoids 20-70 area. Guess there goes your 'logic' of 'No 80 does X!'
[mod edit]
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Thanks for your logical input.
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.
Hey, if you want to chat with your buddy 'fiontar' on why he is saying the stuff he is saying, go right ahead.
I know, I know, he didn't present the 'Pro-GW2' argument in the best of light but that's not a conversation you should have with me.
If you want to actually post something that counters my logic, that's cool too.
Your welcome by the way.
PS. Not sure why so many people are getting so defensive about it though, ANet accepted the issue and even said 'we have to figure something out'.
If you don't like it, take it up with ANet.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Several pages into this already, but this has been false time and time again for me. I have leveled four characters to 80. I have constantly been able to succeed at DEs and group DEs solo. For the major boss DEs, there have always been a handful or more of players to come in and fight alongside. The bast majority of DEs will not constantly fail. Only a very small fraction of them will, and most of those are in Orr, and players group up every now and then to clear those ones (like the temples).
Even when I bring a lvl 80 to these "dead zones", I see plenty of others characters participating in DEs. I guess these zones are considere wastelands because the screen is not FULL OF PLAYERS and spells like in the first couple of weeks. I much prefer less than 10 people for every DE than the initial rush of 30+
On my server, Tarnished Coast, I get a feeling that the "wastelands" aren't as lifeless as people make them out to be...
On Gandara same thing, theres enough people in each zone to do DEs, but its not a crowd. You can level comfortably. And if i want quick 5 events for daily guess where ill go - to some of lower level zones that i know have lots of players and events trigger all the time.
And Gandara is somewhat medium in population.
But yah, fractals hurt open world play everywhere, not just in 20-70 area (more in 80 areas), also regular dungeons, putting best stuff in there makes and nerfed everything in open world, people doing just fractals. It was a mistake and one that ANet acknowledged and is working to sort it out. Hopefully WvW will get some love gear wise too.
1. The problem is Dungeon Play is much harder than the PvE World, especially non level 70+ areas, making your argument void.
2. One can divide a globe into rectangles. There is no doubt you can travel between areas only by specific paths, but again that is something normal.
Rivers, mountains, sea, canyons, deserts, swamps,are all geographic features that divide our world.
Sure, one could say the designers clearly made the world in a way that doesn't have huge plains covering multiple zones.
The only way for one to see that zones are rectangular is by looking at the map because if you just wander around, you won't see anything strange.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Did you really just compare group instances with world PVE content?
/facepalm
Trying to say it isn't an 'issue' when ANet has accepted the issue as fact, is probably not going to work that well.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Players either are playing PvP, much harder than the open world, Dungeons, much harder that the open world, WvW a different beast than open world.
You say that the culprit was the downlevelling system, which makes the world harder and so people play it less.
"1. Level scaling issue.
My position is that making it harder will bring LESS players out into the world.
This post says making it harder we bring MORE players out into the world."
That is a false argument because the cause of less players in the world in not the difficulty or not. Dungeosn are harder and players are there.
Just look at games where the best loot is dengoens and raids - empty worlds.
People play less of the open world not because it is harder or there is a downlevelling system but because it is less rewarding than the dungeons.
It is easy,people bitched that Dungeons weren't rewarding enough, so they flocked Orr and the easier dungeons.
Anet boost dungeon rewards > people leave Orr and flock in to them.
Simple.
Also that big admission of the problem is:
"This ties back to what i was saying earlier in which Ascended Gear and really any progression related reward mechanism that impacts the world globally should be introduced (Where possible) across the game and inside the different type of player's activities specifically. Allowing players to continue doing the things they love without focusing player migration to a specific part of the world. The introduction of the Ascended reward in one part of the game was a mistake and one that i don't want to make again.
Soon Ascended Gear will adhere to these rules."
Full AMA https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PmsDw6AfTYzy7Wh1j_bnaz4Fyop3_8wpbxGcxrhgNUI/edit?pli=1
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Count me in. :-) I left first time Rift exactly because not enough of players to close rifts, this has allower uncontrolled invasions all over ... npcs in quest hubs killed in secs ... sometimes could not play for days, whenever logged in no players around or at least not enough. Like much more Gw2 in this (but also other) sense.
Nit pick alert. They're not "fixed instance portals". There are zones, not instances, which are always running and persistant as opposed to instances which are private copies of an area.
The zones may be rectangular on the map, but they don't feel that way in the game.
Oderint, dum metuant.