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It's not the Industry Failing, It's you.

2

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  • dotdotdashdotdotdash Llandrindod WellsPosts: 364Member
    Originally posted by StoneRoses
    Originally posted by dotdotdash
    Originally posted by StoneRoses
    Finally someone with some balls to call players out!

    The players are just as responsible always laying the blame on developers.

    But hey, we are the consumers aka customers so were always right,... right?

     

    What exactly are players "responsible" for?

    The developers are the people that make the games. They are the people that do the research into what we as consumers want from them. They are tasked with anticipating and catering to our needs, just like any product developer out there. When the developer gets it wrong, and consumers voice their opinions to that effect, it can only be the developers who are to blame.

    I realise that being emo is cool, but I'm really failing to see precisely why I as a consumer should be metaphorically (or literally) self harming myself here?

    Instead of just bashing the drum lid for your own amusement, why don't you actually put a credible argument forward? :)

    I actually have in many of my previous post! Do I dare continue to point out the obvious or do you really need graphs, pie charts, and logic?

    There's nothing logical about what you are saying, at all.

    If your radio isn't picking up FM signals because the FM transmitter is broken, it is not the fault of the radio. The radio has done nothing wrong. The FM transmitter is sending out the wrong signals, and thus the radio is not picking anything up. Would you have me throw the radio out and buy a new one on the provision that the radio should take AT LEAST some of the responsibility for the broken transmitter?

    When a developer releases a game, they are doing so on the back of a ton of research they've done into market conditions. One of the things good product developers do is look at trends, such as how consumers are spending their money, on what products they are spending their money, and - here's the kickers - how consumers have reacted to SIMILAR products in the past. If the product developer sees one product that has sold a billion units, and then looks at other similar products that have failed to gain any traction... they shouldn't be going "oh look... that ONE product out of TWENTY similar products has sold a billion units, so we can sell a billion units!"

    The iPhone is a great example of product development based on an assumption of need, where there was no overt evidence to suggest the product would work at market. There was little to no evidence to suggest that consumers needed or wanted the iPhone, and similar products that had been played out on the market in the past had failed to gain ANY traction. Yet Apple created the iPhone, it sold like proverbial hot cakes, and it spawned an entirely NEW segment of the IT market in mobile computing.

    All of the failures in the space are ENTIRELY the fault of the developers and designers that pushed them to market. They are a product of poor decision making, poor research, poor product development, poor marketing, and a whole wealth of other "poor" things that could and should have been done better. The developers and designers FAILED to anticipate the needs and desires of the market, and consumers reacted accordingly.

    Blaming consumers based on consumption for example (which is what you are seemingly suggesting with your silly "graphs and pie charts", and flawed logic) simply highlights how little you actually know about product development and design.

    As I said... you don't actually have a point.

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by xaithian

         Great games have always and will always be created by true gamers and fans.  Not big corporations.  

    Great brain surgery is performed by people who need brain surgery.... great football is played by the Budwiser swilling football fans... great books are written by people who read lots of books... great singers come from people who watch American Iidol...

    See how idiotic that is?

    The lack of appreciation for the talent of good game developers in these forums is just mind boggling.

    Love this.

    +1

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by xaithian

         Great games have always and will always be created by true gamers and fans.  Not big corporations.  And they are not created overnight, be either of the two.  If you look you will find many "indie" games created all the time.  Many titles are created and spawn all the time.  So if you want companies to stop making crappy games start supporting the little guy.

         Or go back to school and learn to program or texture or create 3D models or write stories or quote literature.'

         The more new hyped titles you buy the more they will make and that will never change.  Kind of like global warming, every fart heats the planet.

     

    I absolutely agree.

    The market gets what the market asks for. If you do not help show that there is a demand for what you want as a player then how can anyone get upset that no one is making it? Support your chosen sub genre with your dollar, mouthing off on message boards does nothing. Looking for continous reasons to not support indie grass development hurts no one else but you in the long run. You are not entitled to a dev taking a risk in providing a game that you have done nothing to support.

     

    When an indie dev can sell me an entire fun game for less than the cost of a single mount in a typical cash shop I have to wonder why more people are not looking at them.

     

    Ofc, the typical player wants indie risk taking and ground breaking alongside huge budget AAA production values and stability, which is pretty blind to the reality of things.

    The issue is many of the big studios started as indie games. Ever hear of a 'loss leader'? I think this is what is going on - they may not make much profit but hoping to get noticed by a big publisher or bought out buy one. It is one possibility.

     

    The other is that indies don't have the overhead cost of established developers. That can be the difference.

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,313Member Uncommon
    I guess eq and uo weren't great games

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • paulythebpaulytheb Wauwatosa, WIPosts: 261Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by xaithian

         Great games have always and will always be created by true gamers and fans.  Not big corporations.  And they are not created overnight, be either of the two.  If you look you will find many "indie" games created all the time.  Many titles are created and spawn all the time.  So if you want companies to stop making crappy games start supporting the little guy.

         Or go back to school and learn to program or texture or create 3D models or write stories or quote literature.'

         The more new hyped titles you buy the more they will make and that will never change.  Kind of like global warming, every fart heats the planet.


    http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/gaming/2012/11/08/video-game-sales-slide-october/1693517/

    Video game sales slide for 11th straight month ....

     

    Your argument is invalid.

    ( Note to self-Don't say anything bad about Drizzt.)

    An acerbic sense of humor is NOT allowed here.

  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper LondonPosts: 2,751Member
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by xaithian

         Great games have always and will always be created by true gamers and fans.  Not big corporations.  

    Great brain surgery is performed by people who need brain surgery.... great football is played by the Budwiser swilling football fans... great books are written by people who read lots of books... great singers come from people who watch American Iidol...

    See how idiotic that is?

    The lack of appreciation for the talent of good game developers in these forums is just mind boggling.

    Love this.

    +1

    It wasn't all that great a response in all fairness, regardless as to the actual merits (or lack of) of the OP.

     

    Oh and +1.

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    I guess eq and uo weren't great games

    They weren't.

    They botch the game part. Subsequent modern MMOs are MUCH better games. No more griefing. No more tank mage. No more housing ghetto. No more camping.

     

  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel houston, TXPosts: 7,276Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    I guess eq and uo weren't great games

    They weren't.

    They botch the game part. Subsequent modern MMOs are MUCH better games. No more griefing. No more tank mage. No more housing ghetto. No more camping.

     

    But games today lose an immense sense of attachment that players had with EQ, UO and even SWG.  Back then, those were worlds,  today you don't have much of a "world" where players thrive,  you have a game that people beat and complain about.

     

    Even many of the best games leave much to be desired as they have little personal attachment.  GW2... you really have nothing to lose or gain by... well, doing anything.  In SWG you had politics, bounties, houses and land... resources...   with as little as gaming in general means overall for anything but entertainment , it means much less when theres no risk to your reward.

    "Loan me a Dragon I wanna see space"


    image

  • kadepsysonkadepsyson sun prairie, WIPosts: 1,937Member
    Originally posted by xaithian

         Great games have always and will always be created by true gamers and fans.  Not big corporations.  And they are not created overnight, be either of the two.  If you look you will find many "indie" games created all the time.  Many titles are created and spawn all the time.  So if you want companies to stop making crappy games start supporting the little guy.

         Or go back to school and learn to program or texture or create 3D models or write stories or quote literature.'

         The more new hyped titles you buy the more they will make and that will never change.  Kind of like global warming, every fart heats the planet.

    So how does my enjoyment of a wide variety of current games from all sorts of developers indicate I'm failing?

    Oh, is it because I'm failing to hate every game no matter what?  I could try to be more like you I suppose, but I'd rather have fun and play all these games I have.

    El Psy Congroo

  • Aison2Aison2 MarburgPosts: 624Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    modern MMOs are MUCH better games. No more griefing. No more tank mage. No more housing ghetto. No more camping.

     

    i can't even fathom how one could conclude that. Why do you care what features others want to have in the game especially if it doesnt affect your pve on rails experience?

    Pi*1337/100 = 42

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by maskedweasel
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    I guess eq and uo weren't great games

    They weren't.

    They botch the game part. Subsequent modern MMOs are MUCH better games. No more griefing. No more tank mage. No more housing ghetto. No more camping.

     

    But games today lose an immense sense of attachment that players had with EQ, UO and even SWG.  Back then, those were worlds,  today you don't have much of a "world" where players thrive,  you have a game that people beat and complain about.

     

    Even many of the best games leave much to be desired as they have little personal attachment.  GW2... you really have nothing to lose or gain by... well, doing anything.  In SWG you had politics, bounties, houses and land... resources...   with as little as gaming in general means overall for anything but entertainment , it means much less when theres no risk to your reward.

    "world' does not make better games. In fact, sometimes it gets in the way of fun. I remember the EQ 20 min boat ride .. that is a waste of my time and it is not fun.

    As for attachment . it is a personal preference. I am sure there are those who are attached to their $20 WOW mount as much as you are attached to UO. And lastly, more attachment also does not always make a better game.

    I have zero attachment to Dishonored (note not a MMO) but it is an AWESOME game (to me, and many others).

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Aison2
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    modern MMOs are MUCH better games. No more griefing. No more tank mage. No more housing ghetto. No more camping.

     

    i can't even fathom how one could conclude that. Why do you care what features others want to have in the game especially if it doesnt affect your pve on rails experience?

    "griefing" affect me. "tank mage" means there is no build diversity (unlike a game like D3 ... where there are many builds/varaitions for each class) .. hence affect me.

    Camping obviously affect me a great deal. What are you talking about?

    If you want another UO .. now that does not affect me ... but why shouldn't i voice what i like, just like you did?

  • MaephistoMaephisto somewhere, DCPosts: 632Member
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by xaithian

         Great games have always and will always be created by true gamers and fans.  Not big corporations.  

    Great brain surgery is performed by people who need brain surgery.... great football is played by the Budwiser swilling football fans... great books are written by people who read lots of books... great singers come from people who watch American Iidol...

    See how idiotic that is?

    The lack of appreciation for the talent of good game developers in these forums is just mind boggling.

     

    i think you just won the thread.  Nicely written.

    image

  • Aison2Aison2 MarburgPosts: 624Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Aison2
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    modern MMOs are MUCH better games. No more griefing. No more tank mage. No more housing ghetto. No more camping.

     

    i can't even fathom how one could conclude that. Why do you care what features others want to have in the game especially if it doesnt affect your pve on rails experience?

    "griefing" affect me. "tank mage" means there is no build diversity (unlike a game like D3 ... where there are many builds/varaitions for each class) .. hence affect me.

    Camping obviously affect me a great deal. What are you talking about?

    If you want another UO .. now that does not affect me ... but why shouldn't i voice what i like, just like you did?

    I explicitly marked what i reffered too because i understand your position on grieving but  the possibilty to tank as a mage says nothing about build diversity, tankmages mostly exist as a spec for single boss encounters in which case its an additional option and nothing that deminishes a players options

    Lastly you didnt mention what you have against housing

     

    Pi*1337/100 = 42

  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper LondonPosts: 2,751Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by maskedweasel
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
     

     

    "world' does not make better games.

    Actually it does for a) some people and b) for some games.

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • dave6660dave6660 New York, NYPosts: 2,543Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by xaithian

         Great games have always and will always be created by true gamers and fans.  Not big corporations.  

    Great brain surgery is performed by people who need brain surgery.... great football is played by the Budwiser swilling football fans... great books are written by people who read lots of books... great singers come from people who watch American Iidol...

    See how idiotic that is?

    The lack of appreciation for the talent of good game developers in these forums is just mind boggling.

     

    Henceforth, January 9th is Developer Appreciation Day.  I'll send them an e-card that sings "For He's a Jolly Good Fellow".

    Not liking the games that are being made is not personal.  I've worked for companies that I hated their product.

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • itgrowlsitgrowls newport news, VAPosts: 2,951Member

    Have yet to see an indie game that lasts a few minutes after launch or even makes it to launch in some cases.

    The problem isn't the gamers it's the developers who've let the $$ go to their heads. For example, how many times have we been promised something in an interview and then shortly after launch the game is nothing like it's been promised because they decided 2 months into the game's lifetime to suddenly change their direction entirely? These so called Devs get in there and see the money flowing in and suddenly forget completely why they are there or their own experiences in MMOs in the past. Or they are just calling themselves gamers and making us thing they actually remember the problems from MMO's in the past.

    It just happened with GW2. So many of us casuals who enjoy farming, the open world, and a more horizontal gear progression were completely baffled by Anet deciding to invent a gear gap that wasn't necessary or wanted and make all of the drops for anything come out of only two dungeons while nerfing the holy hell out of every worldly event they put into the game and failing to add the very thing they said they would add (instead of dungeons), Open world meta events with great rewards.

    I just shook my head and went back to STO and TorchLight II. 

  • Lovely_LalyLovely_Laly genevaPosts: 734Member

    nope, it them
    if they will keep thinking that making 1 more clone of good game will bring them money, they will continue to do it, but as nobody will love these games anymore, they gonna loose money = fail.
    I don't fail when need NEW game and not overeaten sock.

    try before buy, even if it's a game to avoid bad surprises.
    Worst surprises for me: Aion, GW2

  • TerranahTerranah Stockton, CAPosts: 3,605Member
    Originally posted by xaithian

         Great games have always and will always be created by true gamers and fans.  Not big corporations.  And they are not created overnight, be either of the two.  If you look you will find many "indie" games created all the time.  Many titles are created and spawn all the time.  So if you want companies to stop making crappy games start supporting the little guy.

         Or go back to school and learn to program or texture or create 3D models or write stories or quote literature.'

         The more new hyped titles you buy the more they will make and that will never change.  Kind of like global warming, every fart heats the planet.

     I've actually been buying some single player indie games lately from Steam.  I find them refreshing.  But the triple A mmos are created by coporations.  I'm not sure where you got the idea they weren't, that's just silly.

     

    I think as computer tech and gaming evolves it has elevated our expectations.  This is just a natural progression.  I didn't buy a nice gaming rig to play Pacman graphics. 

     

    And going back to school to study gaming is one of those silly arguments.  I think Nasa has really bungled space exploration.  I guess I should start my own space agency then.  Or I had pneumonia one time and the doctor didn't take a sputum culture and I think the antibiotics were the wrong ones because they did absolutely nothing.  I guess as soon as I was feeling better I should have enrolled in medical school using your logic.

     

    I am a gamer.  I game.  I do not create games.  I admire those who do though... 

  • eye_meye_m Notta Chance, ABPosts: 3,133Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Lovely_Laly

    nope, it them
    if they will keep thinking that making 1 more clone of good game will bring them money, they will continue to do it, but as nobody will love these games anymore, they gonna loose money = fail.
    I don't fail when need NEW game and not overeaten sock.

    Is it ironic the title is about the individual failing?  (just a question, never sure when I'm supposed to appreciate some things)

     

    Laly, maybe you should read the OP before you post as in the Original Post or the first post in the thread. 

    All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

    I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.

    I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,641Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Lovely_Laly

    nope, it them
    if they will keep thinking that making 1 more clone of good game will bring them money, they will continue to do it

    The trouble is, as a general rule, it does.

    but as nobody will love these games anymore, they gonna loose money = fail.
     

    The trouble is, they as a general rule, they don't.

     

  • GreyfaceGreyface Detroit, MIPosts: 390Member

    I've put a toe into several indie MMOs, and didn't find much to like about them.  Good intentions and love of gaming go a long way, but those things don't pay development costs.  If the players are buying mediocre games, it's because there aren't many alternatives.  You can't blame people for drinking too much Coca-Cola when the only other option is RC.

    Eventually, the Next Big Thing will arrive and it'll catch everyone off guard.  Maybe it'll come from the crowdfunding movement, or maybe one of the big game publishers will get sick of hasty F2P conversions. 

     

  • Crunchy222Crunchy222 new york, ILPosts: 386Member

    Heres my take on the "industry" failing.

    To make large, complex, smooth preforming, and visually stunning mmorpgs...you need a shitload of money, time and employees to do this.  During the long development process you are making zero dollars.

    The origional RPG community to which these games use to cater to is small.  Catering to just this community brought us EQ, DAOC, Anarchy, and other first generation mmorpgs...the ones people still talk about today as getting it right.

    However, to support the game industries, they needed to expand past this smaller niche community. WOW was the first game to break the barrier, it did so by doing what other games did before it, making shit easier, making endgame the focus, and making the trip to get to engame as quick and easy as possible.  Getting to endgame was something that the dumbest of the dumb could achieve.

    The plan worked.  Now, nearly a decade later, the mmocommuniy has swelled in numbers.  Only problem, all the games out there follow the same priciples of catering to the largest gamer segment as possible...seems the only thing that stuck as far as the niche RPG crowd catering was the lore and look (fantasy mix of old warhammer lore and old D&D lore) and even now that all has been beaten to death.

    There are a few games out there being made by indy developers that are trying to bring back what made mmorpgs great, but sadly they all will fail due to the inability of a small development team to make a polished and unique mmorpgs in a reasonable amount of time.

     

    So this is what we get now, beautiful looking games, relative amount of polish, zero soul and zero uniquness...all the have to do is say "innovative, groundbreaking, revolutionary" and a few million gamers will pick up the game at full box price only to leave it in a month or two after completely clearing all the content...

    I just remember back when it was single player RPG games, and they were awesome but it sucked to beat it and then what.  When mmorpgs came out it promised an RPG that never ended.  Those were the great mmorpgs.  Now every mmorpg is heavy on MMO and not on RPG...its just a race to the endgame treadmills...

     

    So its not really the players fault.  I honestly believe, and on this site specifically, that 75% of these mmorpg gamers would be far happier playing non RPG games, and then RPG developers could go back to making long ("grind"), complex, and difficult mmorpgs where not everyone got to the end, and where people made mistakes that hurt progression and character development..where death in game was feared...mmorpgs you had to spend months reading about to understand what you need to do ect.  We can then do away with these mmo's for dummies with 1hr of free time a day and who have to reach the end of content in a month or they rage.

    The rest of us who enjoy complex and difficult mmorpgs have to settle playing a waterd down mmo that looks like an RPG because we need to get those who hate difficulty and progression into the game to support it looking nice and being modern.  Which leaves the RPG crowd unsatisfied, but also leaves the huge segment of other gamers unhappy because the game isnt action enough, or player skill based enough, or they have to do repetative things (despite the games they come from are even more repetative than mmorpgs)

  • needalife214needalife214 Moorpark, CAPosts: 1,128Member

    I thought this was going to be about something else.

    I thought this was going to be about how "you" just dont want to play MMOs anymore

    I thought this was going to be about something that was/is very similar to my feelings towards MMOs in general

    I thought this was going to be about how my "golden days" of playings MMOs and gaining enjoyment where over because i for some reason i enjoy the concept of them more then playing the games themselves now.

    I thought this was going to be about me

    I thought.

    image

  • ignore_meignore_me Apple Valley, CAPosts: 1,987Member
    Originally posted by Crunchy222

    Heres my take on the "industry" failing.

    To make large, complex, smooth preforming, and visually stunning mmorpgs...you need a shitload of money, time and employees to do this.  During the long development process you are making zero dollars.

    The origional RPG community to which these games use to cater to is small.  Catering to just this community brought us EQ, DAOC, Anarchy, and other first generation mmorpgs...the ones people still talk about today as getting it right.

    However, to support the game industries, they needed to expand past this smaller niche community. WOW was the first game to break the barrier, it did so by doing what other games did before it, making shit easier, making endgame the focus, and making the trip to get to engame as quick and easy as possible.  Getting to endgame was something that the dumbest of the dumb could achieve.

    The plan worked.  Now, nearly a decade later, the mmocommuniy has swelled in numbers.  Only problem, all the games out there follow the same priciples of catering to the largest gamer segment as possible...seems the only thing that stuck as far as the niche RPG crowd catering was the lore and look (fantasy mix of old warhammer lore and old D&D lore) and even now that all has been beaten to death.

    There are a few games out there being made by indy developers that are trying to bring back what made mmorpgs great, but sadly they all will fail due to the inability of a small development team to make a polished and unique mmorpgs in a reasonable amount of time.

     

    So this is what we get now, beautiful looking games, relative amount of polish, zero soul and zero uniquness...all the have to do is say "innovative, groundbreaking, revolutionary" and a few million gamers will pick up the game at full box price only to leave it in a month or two after completely clearing all the content...

    I just remember back when it was single player RPG games, and they were awesome but it sucked to beat it and then what.  When mmorpgs came out it promised an RPG that never ended.  Those were the great mmorpgs.  Now every mmorpg is heavy on MMO and not on RPG...its just a race to the endgame treadmills...

     

    So its not really the players fault.  I honestly believe, and on this site specifically, that 75% of these mmorpg gamers would be far happier playing non RPG games, and then RPG developers could go back to making long ("grind"), complex, and difficult mmorpgs where not everyone got to the end, and where people made mistakes that hurt progression and character development..where death in game was feared...mmorpgs you had to spend months reading about to understand what you need to do ect.  We can then do away with these mmo's for dummies with 1hr of free time a day and who have to reach the end of content in a month or they rage.

    The rest of us who enjoy complex and difficult mmorpgs have to settle playing a waterd down mmo that looks like an RPG because we need to get those who hate difficulty and progression into the game to support it looking nice and being modern.  Which leaves the RPG crowd unsatisfied, but also leaves the huge segment of other gamers unhappy because the game isnt action enough, or player skill based enough, or they have to do repetative things (despite the games they come from are even more repetative than mmorpgs)

    /signed

    I agree completely. very nice summation.

    Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

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